A Day At Kessler's/Antigua Sops

[Dave Dolson]

Last Saturday (11-15-03), I spent a few hours at Kessler's Music in Las Vegas (the main store) with Dave Kessler and "vegaschris". I played several sopranos and tested soprano and alto mouthpieces. I bought an Antigua soprnao from Dave. I would have bought an alto mouthpiece from him, but it was a prototype and not for sale. You alto players should keep an eye out for that offering.

ANTIGUA SOPRANOS

I played four varieties of straight Bb Antigua sops . . . one in black nickel plate with brass lacquered keywork, one silver-plated, one brass lacquered - the two-neck/high-G models. A fourth horn was a fixed-neck lacquered Antigua. I used my Super Session J mouthpiece with a good Rico Royal #2 reed and standard metal ligature.

The build-quality was good, with very nicely done engraving (the black-nickel was striking in appearance). These appeared to be light-years ahead of a "new" Buescher I saw a year ago, and the Taiwanese curved sop I bought from WW&BW a few years ago.

The fixed neck soprano had some intonation problems. Dave explained that he thought the manufacturer didn't get the acoustical issues worked out as good on the fixed neck model as they did on the two-necked models (the two-neck models being a direct copy of the Yanagisawa horns).

Of the two-neck/hi-G models, I liked the brass lacquered one the best, mainly for tone. All played well with good response and great intonation. The silver-plated model was a bit thin, the black-nickel model was much more powerful (bigger and fatter sound). the brass lacquered model had the tone of the black-nickel model but with a bit more edge. Dave Kessler and vegaschris agreed with my assessment of the tonal qualities of each horn.

I compared the Antiguas with my own Buescher TT, a Buescher TT Dave Kessler has offered on eBay, and his just-sold SC991 curved Yana sop. The lacquered Antigua came darned close to my TT in sound, although vegaschris said he heard a difference (to the better for the TT, but not much).

I liked the brass lacquered one so much I bought it - $925.00 plus tax. When I arrived home, I compared the new lacquered Antigua to my S992 Yana. I'm embarrassed to say I liked the Antigua better - a little better response and a more pleasing, focused tone. True, the Yana felt more substantial in my hands - heavier, more solid, but the Antigua played just as good and sounded better to my ears. Oh well . . .

I played the new Antigua today on my regular gig and it passed the on-stage test. Knowledgeable listeners gave it a thumbs-up. A really neat soprano for not-too-much dough. I've changed my opinion about SOME Taiwanese sopranos. The Antiguas are a recommended buy.

YANAGISAWA SC991

This curved sop had a few changes from the SC901/902 (I've owned both and still have the SC902). The left pinky table has been modernized; it is the same as the table on the S991/2, Selmer Serie III, and my new Antigua. The bell pads were on the right side of the bell.

The bell has been canted slightly to the left so as to move the right-side bell pads away from a player's fingers. I felt no interference while playing the SC991. Dave pointed out that the curved neck had more curve to it than the previous Yana's curved-sop necks. I'll take his word for it - I did not have my SC902 with me to compare curves.

This was a very nice soprano in all areas of consideration.

Just as I prepared to test the horns, Dave Kessler announced the SC991 had been sold. Lucky buyer!! This horn provides the typical in-your-face sound to the player. It is hard to judge how a curvy sounds when it is coming right back at you. But, it was similar to my SC901/2s in tone, response, and scale. The ONLY differences when compared to the SC901/2 line were the mechanical ones, in my opinion.

For those of you considering a new SC991, do it! It will be a horn-for-life and an item of pride in your horn battery.

BUESCHER TT OFFERED ON eBAY

This horn was an original finish silver straight Bb sop. The keywork was of the older variety (pearl-button G# as opposed to the later TTs like I own, with the roller G#) and the octave key mechanism was entirely different than mine (more like the Conn sops). The horn had a wonderful voice, typical of vintage sopranos. However, there were some problems in the mid-register (Dave said he planned to fix that problem when he sold the horn) which prevented the horn from playing around middle C-B-A, so I couldn't play more than a few notes. With the mid-register problem fixed, this old TT would be a player.

MOUTHPIECES

I tried two metal (silver-plated) Yanagisawa sop pieces (#5 and #7). Vegaschris liked the #7 - in fact, he has one. I didn't care for either one. Plus, the shanks were too long for my TT soprano, and even the fat corks on two of the Antiguas. I couldn't get either Yana piece to come to pitch because they wouldn't shove on far enough. However, they did go on far enough on one of the Antiguas to play them properly.

Anyone buying these for a vintage sop should consider having the barrel shortened (like I did with a gold-plated Guardala, and two Selmer S-80 pieces I used to play).

I tried a plastic Morgan Protone soprano piece which Dave will sell for $35.00 with a new-horn purchase. This piece was as good as any back-up piece I have. But when I switched to my Super Session J, the improvement in presence and power was evident. If you buy a horn from Dave, you should consider throwing in the extra money for the Protone. It plays.

I tried two of Dave's alto pieces. one was the longer-shanked HR copy marked "NY". It was okay. Then I tried the short-shank prototype that Dave and his expert are designing. Wow! I offered to buy it but it wasn't for sale.

In summary, Dave Kessler was very helpful and runs a nice store. He is a businessman and will deal with you straight. Anyone considering the Antiguas will probably end up with a good horn at a very reasonable price. Oh, I know a couple of buyers have returned them to Dave (and that's part of his good-business practices), but I for one am happy with mine. DAVE

[RS]

Thanks for the review. Sounds like Yanagisawa did a good job with the redesigned curvy.

[Ray]

Thanks, Dave. Good to hear your opinion especially since soprano seems to be your main sax. I almost didn't try the Antiguas and was ready to lay down some major cash on a Yani but I'm very happy with my 586. Intonation has been excellent and I love the tone with my Quantum mpc. I'll be playing it at Christmas at church in some duets so it's getting a workout.
I have a craving now for a black nickel one now...gotta fight it hard or succumb and take a months grief from my wife. Maybe I'll get it for my own Christmas present! :)

[Dave Dolson]

Ray: The black-nickel was striking, as I reported - beautiful engraving and the brass keywork was a nice contrast to the color of the tube. However, I liked the sound of the lacquered horn better - and that gaudy black-nickel horn would definitely NOT fit in a New Orleans' style band (but I guess neither will any new soprano with the bell pads below the centerline, but they'll just have to accept THAT flaw). DAVE

[goodsax]

Excellent and informative report, Dave. I was enjoying every word until I got to the bit about fixed neck Antigua sops having intonation problems, and Dave Kessler sharing his thoughts about how Antigua didn't get that worked out until the two-neck models were developed.

Since I recently bought an Antigua 582LQ, this hit me like a ton of bricks. I had read nothing before now about Antigua fixed-neck intonation problems, or how the two-neck models, 586 and 590, were relatively better in this area. I thought the only difference between them was the two necks, the F# key in one and the high G in the other. Oh well, it's too late now because I'm not in a position to make any changes in the sop department. Guess I'll have to do some serious testing with my Korg to verify how bad this issue is with my 582.

It's not super serious since I'm not a working pro. I have signed up for the local community concert band, however, but that's playing either alto, tenor or both with the only sop parts being for specialty pieces, so the sop probably won't get much use.

8)

[MB-913]

Dave Dolson

Very details test report & thanks for this.
I have a few questions:

1) ANTIGUA SOPRANOS - Silver plated
- Is it a two neck version or one piece horn (like Yana S-901, S-902 or YSS-62)?

2) You have test on 3 different straight ANTIGUA SOPRANOS (black-nickel , Silver-Plated & Brass Lacquered model ). Which is best in your option, or if you must pickup one, which one is your choice?


3) For price issue, I think these straight ANTIGUA SOPRANOS is close to a YSS-475 (or Yana S-901 ?). Frankly, if your max. budget is only can afford that price but really want to get a soprano asap. Will you choose a ANTIGUA ?YSS-475 or S-901 ?


Thanks

[Dave Dolson]

Rob: I wouldn't throw away your fixed-neck Antigua. The problem I encountered may have just been the one horn I played. If yours plays well, no problem.

While Dave Kessler offered to me his opinion about this particular horn, I'm not sure whether he's had similar experiences with other fixed-neck models. From what he said, that's what I understood, but he should speak to that, not me, because my experience was with only one horn. Even if more than one fixed-neck sop had that problem, it is possible that not all have that problem. Maybe yours doesn't.

MB-913: I bought the brass-lacquered one. The silver-plate model was a two-neck version as was the black-nickel, and the laquered one I bought. Of the three finishes I played, everyone there (including me, obviously) thought the lacquered finish gave the fullest and strongest sound.

It has been a while since I played a Yana S901 and YSS475, but for the price, I'd go for the Antigua (just like I did). DAVE

[DaveKessler]

Rob,

"Intonation Problems" is actually a bit of a stretch. What we have found is that in comparison to the 2 double neck models, the 582 requires a little more control by the player to play it as well in tune.

I attribute this to where Antigua placed the bulge in the neck of the 582 for the parabolic bore. Since they did not copy a single piece body horn, they had to estimate where to put it and in comparison to the Yani S901, they placed this a little lower then Yanagisawa.

Dont get me wrong, the 582 can be played perfectly in tune and outplays every other Taiwanese (and other nationalities) horns out there. Its just that in comparison, the 582 is a little more "squirly" and if you dont have a good player who can control the horn, then I would recommend the double neck models.

As you said, you have no problems in this regard so for you, there is no need to worry.

Hope this helps. The 582 is the Best horn value on the market.

Dave Kessler

[goodsax]

Dave Kessler,

That clarification helps a lot. I wouldn't exactly concede that I have no problems controlling a squirly instrument, but I'm way past the beginner level.

Thanks,

Rob

[TerraNova]

*feels very comfortable about her buy from Dave Kessler*...

I just recently shipped my dough out to Dave for a 590BC Antigua, and am bursting at the seems waiting for it to arrive... I'm so impatient!!

I was a little concerned abotu the quality of the Antiguas, as no one here in Australia has even heard of them!! My repairer has never seen or heard of them in his life!! So thanks Dave D for calming my nerves... 8)

[MB-913]

So, is that mean compare with all Taiwan made soprano saxophone, Antiguas quality & sound best + most worthy to buy ?

If yes, it's a little bit strange. As I know the factory in Taiwan is not too many. A lot of brands also made by the same factory. What is the real meaning if Antiguas quality much better than others ? Better design work? Better QC monitor work ?

[goodsax]

Dave & Dave,

I gave the Korg tuner a good workout tonight and the 582LQ hung in there quite well. AAMOF, I had better luck with the Anitgua sop than my gold-plated Buescher TT alto. In general, the alto played a little sharp in the high register with mid to low registers being mostly in the green. So, I'm content that my 582 will do just fine and cancelled my order for that Selmer Series III sop. <Not!>
:wink:

[Dave Dolson]

Goodsax: Congrats, then. Glad to read that your Antigua is in tune.

In thinking back about playing all of those Antiguas, my problems with the fixed neck (and they weren't insurmountable problems) may have been the thickness of the neck cork. None of Kessler's mouthpieces nor my Super Session would push on far enough. I was unable to determine my SS was on all the way, but it looked close. Was the neck too long? Was the corkk too thick to allow more sharpness? I don't know.

The neck cork on my Antigua is sufficiently thick as to cause some difficulty in shoving on. I may have to take it down slightly, but at yesterday's rehearsal, I was able to play sharp (oh yeah, I changed THAT, but at least I got on far enough to go sharp).

MB-913: All I am saying is that the Antiguas I played were nice horns. I confirmed by experience all of the good things posted here on SOTW about them.

I HAVE played other Taiwanese sopranos (owned a WW&BW curvy at one time) and the Antiguas I played at Kessler's (and the one I bought at Kessler;s) were good players - superior to any other Taiwanese soprano I'd played or owned, and the equal of my Yana S992.

I don't know where they were made in Taiwan or anything about the care that was put into making them - but obviously their construction was good (so far - who knows about years down the road after the horn's been played a bunch?).

While vacationing in Kalispell, MT last week, I played a new Antigua alto. I don't know the model designation, but it was lacquered brass. I was not as impressed with it as I was the two-neck sopranos. But for the money, the Antigua alto may be a good choice for those on a budget. It had the same general sound as do most newly-made altos I've played - not a vintage-like sound, though - more spread. DAVE

[Dr G]

So, I'm content that my 582 will do just fine and cancelled my order for that Selmer Series III sop. <Not!>

Hey Rob, I'm not sure how to read that comment but if you're contemplating a Serie III sop, contact me. I'm not set on selling it yet but I am eagerly awaiting a trial with the new Yani SC models. I've been in love with the III over all others - vintage and modern - but I really crave a curved sop. The only thing that kept me from keeping any of my (several) vintage sops was an issue of ergos.

[Dr G]

Dave - If you're still able to handle the barrage of questions about the SC901, I'd like to learn why you no longer have the SC901. Do you really prefer the sound of the bronze horn or was there something else at issue? I'm drawn to the darkside myself and tend to play to the bright side of a horn - seems like the darker horn is a must for me.

Thanks.

[Dave Dolson]

Dr G: After buying the SC902, I put the SC901 away. The 902 sounded a bit better to my ears . . . a little more character in the tone. I had no need for two curved sops, so I eventually sold the SC901 to a SOTW poster. There was nothing wrong with it.

The SC991 I played at Kesslers reminded me of the SC901 with different keywork. If I was in need of a curvy, I don't think I'd wait for the bronze models - that SC991 was just fine. And, if you don't mind the older-style palm keys, an SC901 still in someone's inventory should work.

The tonal differences between bronze and lacquered brass are subtle; probably the player and his/her set-up (plus the reed quality) has as much effect on the tone as does the horns' finish. Meaning that a player may be able to influence a certain horn's sound - and again, the audience will probably not recognize that you are playing a bronze or lacquered horn.

Over the last several years when my non-musical income improved substantially, I was able to play at saxophone buying and ended up with a bunch of different models. Now in retirement (and having hooked up with a steady trad band), I favor straight sops, and vintage ones at that. So the SC902 has turned into a cute novelty item that travels well (because of its compact size).

After comparing my new lacquered Antigua to my S992, maybe I'm also tiring of the heavier bronze sound. A while ago, I put a straight sterling-silver Yana neck on my S992 and put a straight bronze Yana neck on my SC902. The result TO MY EARS was that my SC902 is a bit more mellow (than when I had the sterling neck on it) and the S992 is a bit "brighter" (I hate that term because it is difficult to define, yet is appropriate for this situation).

While neither Yana horn is as good as my TTs, they are certainly wonderful sopranos. Maybe I'm just spoiled, eh? DAVE

[Alan K]

Dave, Thank you for posting the review.

[pknight]

In thinking back about playing all of those Antiguas, my problems with the fixed neck (and they weren't insurmountable problems) may have been the thickness of the neck cork. None of Kessler's mouthpieces nor my Super Session would push on far enough.

I purchased a 590LQ from Kessler's a short time ago. I had to sand down the neck corks in order for any of my mouthpieces to go on far enough to play in tune. Once I did that, the 590 had truly excellent intonation.

[Dave Dolson]

pk: You may have identified the problem. I suspected as much but wasn't willing to spend more time trying to fix it. I'm sure Dave Kessler would've tried that too, but I didn't insist and went about my testing without doing anything to improve my results with the fixed-neck model. DAVE

[Pakriff]

I just got a 586LQ from Kessler, REALLY nice horn, at first, my Bari HR64 was pretty hard to fit, now everything is OK. EXCELENT SOUND!!

[Paul Coats]

Dave: Welcome to the dark side... HAH! Seriously, you guys just have to try this new Antigua line, as Dave did, to appreciate them.

I played the 590, 586, and 582 quite a bit, over several days, and did not notice any problems with the 582. Dave, exactly what was the nature of the intonation problem you found? But I spent most of my time with the 590 and 586, perhaps I did not uncover whatever it was you found.

Sopranos are also sensitive to exact mouthpiece placement, chamber size, reed, humidity, position of the moon, and the color of shirt you are wearing. Hah. No, my point is, there are many factors, and perhaps my particular mouthpiece setup was a little better. Who knows. No matter.

Dave, what did you think of the gray molded case of the 586 vs the leatherbound wood case of the 590? I like the 586's case better, personally.

[Jerry K.]

I bought and tried the 582LQ earlier this year and the individual horn I received had definate intonation problems for me. I discussed with Dave at length and provided note by note details regarding where the horn played flat and where it played sharp. I believe that my experience was unique however as Dave mentioned that the particular horn I received had been tweaked for a particular players personal preferences and was shipped to me in error. I must say the horn's fit and finish was excellent and Dave was very easy to deal with and provided a full refund with no hesitation.

[Dave Dolson]

Paul: By "Dave" and your comments, I assume you were asking me, not Dave Kessler.

I STILL am not that familiar with the individual model numbers, even though I bought one! The horns are not marked with their model numbers (as are other saxophones). So, I'll refer to them by their neck design and presence or absence of a hi-G key (which I think are the differences among the Antigua soprano models). I recall mine is a 590 (taken from the warranty card included in the purchase).

In retrospect, maybe my intonation problems with the fixed-neck Antigua sop was because I couldn't get any of the mouthpieces on far enough to come to pitch. There was a piano in the room that Dave Kessler said was tuned - and that's how I normally tune - by ear. But in my past experiences, even if I couldn't get a horn to come to pitch, most (if not all that I've played) would still be in tune with themselves, even if the whole horn was flat. This particular horn had a fat cork, but it appeared my Super Session piece was almost topped out. Hard to tell, though without sanding down the cork. I recall another poster had to do that (see above).

I did not make notes that day and I played a bunch of horns, so I can't recall the exact intonation problem with the fixed-neck Antigua. After struggling with the fixed-neck horn, I put it aside and tried all the others. Even if this particular soprano had some intonation problems for me, I'd urge others to take a shot at the fixed neck if price and fixed-necks are an issue with you. The problems with MY test of the fixed-neck Antigua may not be YOUR problems - or it just could've been that particular horn.

I must say though, that while I've always thought I preferred fixed-neck sopranos (e.g., I love my vintage sopranos, and I had a bad experience with my first dual-neck Yana Elimona), every new fixed-neck sop I've played in the last several years has left me luke warm (S901, JK, and others), while the dual-neck sops (Yana, Yamaha, Selmer, Antigua) played better for me. This fixed-neck Antigua left me with the same impression as other new fixed-neck sops - mediocre at best.

On to cases - I did not see the other cases except the one for the horn I bought. Dave Kessler brought into the room a selection of Antigua's for me to test and they were not in cases. The case I received for my Antigua was a hard case with what looks like a thin layer of leather or naugahyde (sp?) over a wood frame, with handles at one end and one in the middle. Inside, the horn rests without the neck in place and there are four round-deep recesses for two necks and two mouthpieces, plus a longer rectangular recess for accessories. It is a decent case, but nothing like the padded-leather case that came with my S992. As to sturdiness, maybe the Antigua case will protect the horn better than the Yana case - who knows? DAVE

[Paul Coats]

Dave: Though I bought an A590, I swapped out cases for the molded gray case for the A586, which I liked better. It is made of a gray luggage type plastic, with metal bezel aound the edge, very nice lockable flush latches (let's see how long I hang on to the key) and like your, recesses for two necs and two mouthpieces. It appears to support the instrument well inside, plenty of padding. The way we (the sax ensemble) pile about 15 saxes in the back of a huge Dodge van, I felt the molded plastic case, with its flush latches, would hold up better.

I'll try to check out an A586 again, let you know what I find. Anyway, I have been MORE than satisfied with my A590.

[goodsax]

Dave Dolson:

Off topic alert!

I didn't see a way to contact you via email, so please forgive my asking this off-topic question. Where do you play? I'm relatively local, in Westminster, and enjoy your many posts here on the forum. Do you play at public places where I might be able to attend and give your group a listen?

I've been monkeying around with saxophones off and on for 54 years with a big interruption caused by 21 years in the submarine force and I'm just getting back into more serious playing with my SBAT collection. I started private lessons again with one of the Disneyland band members and joined the Placentia Community Concert Band two weeks ago.

I'd like to hear you play, and possibly meet you one of these days if that's agreeable to you.

Rob Fleming
SOTW: goodsax
Westminster, CA
rfleming@socal.rr.com

[Dave Dolson]

Rob: I play with a VERY trad-jazz (New Orleans style) band, The Golden Eagle Jazz Band, usually at Steamers in Fullerton (100-block West Commonwealth) two Sundays per month. Our next appearance will be December 7, 2 to 5PM. We are also scheduled for the Fresno Mardi Gras in February, '04. This year, we played the Orange County Jazz festival in August, and the Pismo Beach 27th First Annual Jazz Festival in October.

Contact me off the SOTW at jazzdolsonatcomcast.net. Hope to see at some event. DAVE