Which is Harder????Woodwind or Brass????

[sycc]

It seems the elementary director who is a exceptional flutist(my youngest daughter's flute teacher as well) takes students who have trouble w/ woodwinds and puts them on baritone horn or tuba. I've seen a kid go from flute to tenor sax to baritone horn and a kid go from alto sax to tuba. These children have cordnation problems w/ the many keys on a woodwind so she feels a brass instrument w/ only 3-4 valves will be easier. We really do love this teacher!!!I just want to know is a brass instrument really that much easier than a woodwind???I never played brass!!!

[gary]

They are all hard - or easy. They all have different requirements and limitations. What's easy on one is difficult on the other. If an instrument is inherently easy, overall, to play, then the bar is raised for all players of that instrument. Eventually you will hit a wall that you have to overcome.

[shotgun]

I've never played brass either, but I always had the feeling that brass playing on a high level is more difficult than flute and single reed playing. Once a student learns the finger coordination on a woodwind — and I don't think it's that difficult — the notes fall automatically and sequentially, leaving embouchure, breath support, and basic musicality as the main challenges. But maybe a brass playing member can add something here. Anyone play French Horn?

[clinty]

Gary is right. One example I can think of is double tonguing. Try double tonguing on saxophone and it'll be much harder than on, well, almost any brass instruments. On brass, it almost comes naturally.

[SAXISMYAXE]

I play both, and am definitely of the opinion that woodwinds are harder in general.

[gary]

I play both, and am definitely of the opinion that woodwinds are harder in general.

Wellllll...if you're a sax player you have to play a lot of notes. If you're a (french) horn player if you can get a few out without clamming you're a hero. :notworth:

But OTOH, you've got to be a pretty bad sax player not to get the right note out by simply grabbing a handful of keys and blowing. On horn, try coming in on a G3 at pp when everyone in the orchestra is just waiting for you to clam.

Woodwinds have the relative advantage of a piece of wood that all you have to do to get the full range of the instrument is to blow against it. To do the same thing on a brasswind, because it's two pieces of meat slamming together to make the sound, you almost have to do push ups with your lips while your hands are tied behind your back....every day of the year.

Brasses, especially the trumpet, are (for most players) a very physical thing and a lot of time is spent just doing embouchure calisthenics, while the ww players are playing 32nd note runs for three octaves at warp factor 10.

That's why I say, they're all hard/easy because if something is easy on one instrument, then you have to do it twice as well as someone doing the same thing on an instrument where that technique is hard. IMO they all have their limitations to overcome; just different usually.

[bandmommy]

All are equally hard.

Do you think the teacher is swapping them around in order to find a better 'fit', or just trying to keep kids in the program?
Our school has a problem with "You can't play this? How about trying that? 'That' isn't good either. What are your feelings on going with 'The Other Thing'?"

Once in a while I get students where 'The Other Thing' is a last resort to keep them in band.

[shotgun]

I play both, and am definitely of the opinion that woodwinds are harder in general.
Can't dispute you directly, not having your experience, but did you ever notice that it's the sax players who take the r e a l l y l o n g solos? I read an interview with Art Farmer where he rather ruefully commented on this and suggested it was because of the physical difficulties imposed by the trumpet.

[nathan61]

For a kid without a good ear the brasswinds are the most difficult instrument- especially trombone. A lot of kids have trouble playing the lower brass instruments. I think they don;t hear pitch well in the low frequencies.

Then there are some kids with great ears, but they are not very detail oriented about putting a reed properly on the mouthpiece, covering holes with their fingers, or ditinguishing between all those shiny keys on woodwinds. For these kids brass instruments are easier.

It really depends. If a kid has no sense of pitch and doesn't look like they will go anywhere I put them on clarinet, because although sax is easier in many ways it is too loud and has more intonation problems than clarinet.

It sounds cold and heartless, but it is for the good of the whole band or orchestra. The parents often suggest percussion for kids who struggle, but I'd never do that to the rest of the band.

[Ralfy]

I've never really tried playing a brass instrument but friends of mine who play brass instruments used to always ask me how I remember all the different fingerings (on my bari). But for me it came really easy.

For one, when I went to elementary we were required to take a short music class like three times a week. Starting in 4th grade in that music class we had to learn to play recorders. When I started playing sax (on an alto) I thought it was really cool that the first few fingerings I learned were the same on recorder.

Secondly, the fingerings on a sax at least aren't just random keys; they almost go in a pattern. For example, playing a low D requires most of the keys above the D key to also be pressed down.

Ok, I'm going to stop jabbering now 'cause I'm starting to feel like a "know-it-all."

[sycc]

Thanks for all your reponses!!!!

[CiaranAudio]

I've played Contra in world class marching ensembles.

Brass is EASY!
Saxophone is not.

After only one year of tuba I passed the university audition. I wasnt serious, I'm a sax player after all. Just was doing what the band needed by playing contra, and it got me into some groups I couldn't have on sax. But tuba, as cool as it is, does not lend itself well to "wanking off" so I'll stick to sax from now on.

But yeah, low brass is easy. And incidentally, low brass embouchure is a great help to developing sax embouchure!

[Al Stevens]

I play saxes, trumpet, and trombone.

Saxes are more expensive to buy and maintain. Plus you need to buy reeds.

The first time I picked up a sax (four years ago) I was able to play the highest note (F3) on that sax. I have been playing trumpet for over 50 years and still do not have a high register. However it took me until last month to get to where I can play the two lowest notes reliably on the tenor. (Other saxes are no problem.)

Brass involves more pain. Sax is less convenient to schlep to gigs.

Brass players play alpha-male by hitting high notes. Sax players do it by buying vintage equipment.

Brass permanently disfigures your lips. Look at Louis Armstrong's mouth. I do not recomment that pretty girls take up tuba or trombone.

Fingering: The sax is more intuitive than the trumpet. Where the notes fall makes more sense. On the trumpet you have eight fingering positions (seven, actually, since two of them provide the same length of pipe) from which to play all the notes.

Sax has a register key. On trumpet you have to do it with your chops.

I can lay off sax for a month and play a four-hour gig with no endurance problems. If I lay off trumpet for two weeks, my range after about an hour is compromised until I'm lucky to hit E2.

In my experience, sax was easier to learn and is easier to play. After playing one less than six months I was playing gigs and had started recording a CD. (I wish I'd waited. :))

[Ralfy]

It looks like it all depends on the person.

If people are switching to brass because they are having a hard time playing woodwind then by all means they should both for more enjoyment and so they don't tear their hair out from getting really frustrated. Maybe someday they'll come back to woodwinds and it won't be so challenging.

[solfinger]

I have played trombone for a long time. Started tenor sax few years ago. I noticed, that my experience on trombone help me lot on a sax. It was very easy to me to master harmonics on sax since this is the way how brass works. On the other hand, I had always difficulties to play very high tones on trombone. With sax I learned to use my oral cavity to work for me (voicing). This experience helps me on trombone, now I can play very high very easily. So in my opinion, brass and sax are very different, but it is impossible to say which is easier or more difficult. I have to practice both regularly.

[Radjammin]

I played Trumpet for a very long time, only recently quit it.

The lip stuff is hard. Going from saxophone to Trumpet takes forever to learn how to tongue on a trumpet. I never learned the right way until I took trumpet lessons.

Sax tonguing is done on the tip of the reed with the face of your tongue, where trumpet is done where the teeth meet the mouth at the top with the tip of your tounge. A few years ago I played for several months at a community band with lots of classical tunes and it finally started to improve. I actually sounded like a trumpet player.

As far as hard? The range can be worked on but allot of it is you got it or not. I actually had a nice range up to double high F, but like Al said, if you don't practice it just goes away. You will get tired hitting high G.

Endurance on trumpet is through patience. You have to learn how to not blow out your lip in a short amount of time. You take the length of the gig into consideration.

Sax, I can play for 4 to 5 hours without a problem. You will get tired before you sax embrasure does.

Trumpet is fun, it's just that the reed is your lips. You don't have to keep buying new lips, but think of it as you only have one reed per gig and if you mess it up you might as well leave or take a long break.

Why did I stop? It just takes too much practice time. The only good part of trumpet is that playing anything, like community band, can pretty much count as warm time to keep your lips up. For the lips, it's about using them.

Now you aren't going to get better unless you practice at home, like sax.

[natewat]

I too started out as a trumpet player. I have played for over 25 years. In college I could play the elusive double C. Now, forget it. Back then I was practicing like 4-6 hours a day on the trumpet. Even at that, if I had a long gig, over an hour, I would have to take breaks. Being top dog in trumpet is all about range. If you could hit a double C but sounded like a plastic toy trumpet, nobody cared you were it!

All those years I was blown away by you sax players doing your runs, on and on. How did you do it? How did you guys know so much about improv and chord structure? For the most part, you were already comfortable playing with in your insturments normal range and went on to bigger and better things, learning musicianship.

I would say to make it to first chair in highschool band and beyond, both instruments are equally hard. But in the long run unless one is simply gifted, for me the trumpet was more difficult to get a firm handle on and keep it.

[Pgraves]

Saxophonists end up spending more time on music because maintaining the embouchure is less demanding than it is for brass players. Take a saxophonist and a trumpeter with similar skill levels and have them both stop playing for a week, I believe the trumpeter will have more embouchure degradation. Based on observation and conversations with trumpeters simply producing the notes and having the flexibility to easily play large intervals in a full (normal) range on the trumpet is clearly more difficult than saxophone in my opinion.
More time required for tone exercises and technique upkeep leaves less time for musical development. This indicates that brass is harder.
The "easier" an instrument is the high the bar is set for virtuosity. I think that the best saxophonists can play faster and more complex lines than the best trumpeters. Just listen to Michael Breckers solo version of Naima and imagine all that played on a trumpet. Arturo Sanduval certainly pushes the line up there, but still, it's just not going to happen. That's another indication that brass is harder.

[Ralfy]

But the idea that saxophone players can stop playing for longer amounts of time doesn't mean you should stop playing for long amounts of time.

Sometimes reeds that have been used before will warp in that amount of time for me and that's the sooo frustrating...yet irrelevant.

[SaxTon]

Many good points mentioned so far, but the bottom line is that brass and woodwinds have breath and embrochure control in common. There is also the physical factor of teeth and lip structure which can be advantageous for sax or brass for example. Some players have more natural chops for sax or brass.

Some players are given at the outset the wrong advise or select the wrong instrument for their overall physical and mental match.

Indeed, endurance is a factor on high brass especially in comparison to sax.

One also has to consider the overall skills and pressures involved in being principal trumpet or french horn in an orchestra. To say that sax or brass is easier is much too simplistic. It must be taken into total context of the musicians talent and playing demands and dedication to his chosen instrument.

[gary]

(He says in his best Arkansan voice), "It all depends on how you define harder".

If you want an instrument that lets you get to more music quicker - sax over trumpet. But I remind - you won't be getting a free ride by choosing the sax. Expectations in many regards are higher and you'll still have to work just as hard.

[imbobthemoose]

I have been fortunate enough in high school to get to play many different instruments, both brass and woodwinds. I don't think one family is harder than the other, but certain instruments are certainly more challenging. For instance, trombone is fairly complicated to learn due to exact positions and harder mouth control. Baritone on the other hand is fairly easy. I play bassoon as well, and it takes the cake of all instruments!

[Pgraves]

Assume the best on either are both dedicated and talented.
The best saxophonists can play more complex music, therefore it's mechanically "easier".

[stevesklar]

I used to play french horn. I absolutely loved playing french horn. one thing is for sure, it's easier to keep brass in easy playing condition. you have 3 valves that have movement versus the keywork complexity of a sax.

i still have no idea why I sold my french horn. The french horn seemed easier to play just from finger movement. of course, there's alot more embouchure movement on the french horn

[Reedsplinter]

(He says in his best Arkansan voice), "It all depends on how you define harder".


Trumpet mouthpieces are definitely harder than reeds. Get a reed and a trumpet mouthpiece and smack 'em together vigorously. What happens?

Any more questions?:twisted:

[Swingtone]

French horn is hard; it must be because there was only one guy in my entire school career who could get a good tone on his (and he was the son of a music prof. at the local university). The other people basically sucked; but ironically, they stuck it out because there seemed to be a lot of them.

[Radjammin]

French horn is hard; it must be because there was only one guy in my entire school career who could get a good tone on his (and he was the son of a music prof. at the local university). The other people basically sucked; but ironically, they stuck it out because there seemed to be a lot of them.

I messed around with French horn in High School, destroyed my trumpet chops. It was very hard. The intervals were much closer together then trumpet. You had to hear more of the notes, all the while you had your hand stuck up the bell to mute the tone? Talk about hard. I soon felt it was like being on the track team, self- endued pain.

I went back to Trumpet and Sax.

[cjpts]

I'd agree with the brass players about embouchures. I only play reeds & keys but the brass players in my band say the same as you guys. But I think harmonics etc are probably easier to understand if you're a brass player as thats how your instrument works.

It's always interesting to see a brass player pick up a sax. Somehow they always seem much louder than most reed players - or maybe its the brass players I know only knowing FFF ??

I'll tell you something for nothing though, if you're the only alto player, trying to be heard over 8 strong brass players then a 2 hour gig can be hard work on your chops!! (its also exaserbates GAS!)

[jaysne]

I would say that coming in on a high G on trumpet is much harder than playing a high G on a saxophone. But I would say that the woodwind parts in a Mozart symphony are much harder than what the brass have to play.

Each family--woodwind and brass--have their own difficulties. Woodwind players have tons of keys to think about; trumpet players have only three. But then the trumpet player has to produce three octaves of notes just from those three keys; the woodwind players have a key for each note. Woodwind players always have a ton more notes to play, with more expression demanded, than the brass. But brass players have to rely on minute changes of lip pressure to produce different pitches based on the same fingerings. Easier or harder?

Having started as a woodwind player and then learned brass, I see both the easy side and the difficult side of both families. I don't think your question has an answer.

[lowbrasscrew]

I'm a euphonium player and learning how to play alto for my senior project.
I really don't know how to play sax properly yet. I really love playing Euphonium. The instrument itself its easy, but their are some songs that are so difficult for a Euphonium player that come incredibly easy for a sax, i.e "Watchman, Tell Us of the Night"

[rcorbitt]

I enjoyed playing French Horn in high school, but I wasn't very good at brass horns of any kind. I think the dedication to the instrument has a lot to do with difficulty or ease.

However, Maynard Ferguson had "pretty good" range on trumpet, and played a mean sax. I think he is too often overlooked when ability/capability to play woodwind and brass are discussed.

[trombone+sax=life]

Like quite a few people have mentioned, I don't think either one is exactly more difficult than the other. A lot of woodwinds wouldn't dream of picking up a brass horn, and it works vice versa as well. Essentially, enough dedication to any instrument can be prosperous. The difficulty level is relative.

[schnautza]

I remember reading somewhere that the more mechanically complex an instrument is, the easier it is to play...so i decided to give the sax a shot after 11 straight years of all-around brass playing.
And wherever I read that, I believe they were right! After self-teaching bari for 2 weeks, I already feel reasonably confident enough to give it a shot with playing in a group...just have to wait for school to start up again in september now...
Now that's not to say that I think brass are all together more difficult. It took a long time for me to get good...but french horn was my primary instrument. I think that playing that was the window to learning all the other brass because of the ear that it took to play it. It just depends on the person's ability to distinguish pitches. To hear them before they are sounded.
With the sax you pretty much just lay down the keys and the note sounds right...on horn, I can lay down the right fingers to play a high C (C5 written, F4 in concert pitch) but hit anything around it...A, Bb, B, C, C#, D...the upper register is just a mess of harmonics...mostly in half steps or less.

[schnautza]

Another side note is that with all the different brass, a completely different embrochure is required...If I play only tuba for 3 weeks with my brass band and then I pick up the french horn, it will take me a few days to get used to playing it again. I can't say how this compares with saxes because I've only tried the bari. Any input from you sax players?

[harmonizerNJ]

I think a sax looks harder and more complex than does a trumpet to a beginner (or to a non-musician), because there are so many keys on the sax.

What the non-musician may fail to realize is that the extra keys on a sax make it easier to play many notes, since the fingers take care of almost everything (in terms of note selection). With a sax, if your mouth does the wrong thing, your note might sound bad, but you will probably still hit the correct note. But not so with a brass instrument.

[jrvinson45]

"Brass players play alpha-male by hitting high notes. Sax players do it by buying vintage equipment." -- Al Stevens
:sign5:
I got a late start on this thread, but Al made it all worthwhile. This is classic.

[sonofjabba]

Can a Piccolo Player Pick up a Tuba, and pound out 32nd note runs... No Can a Tuba Player pic up a Piccolo and Pound out the lead into "Come Follow the Band." No, Each one is unique...

Time can make that possible...

Saying one is easier than the other is like saying. Driving a car is like riding a bike. They all have their own tricks quirks... Even the same instrument to instrument is different.

Just because it has less moving parts doesn't mean it's easier to play.

[bjornblomberg]

While never having played a brass instrument, I believe it must be harder than saxophone. Trumpet or any other brass instruments are all about producing overtones. On saxophone you can rely on pressing various keys (including octave key) to produce a range of 2 and 1/2 octave from low Bb to high F#, and it is kind of cool if you manage to transcend into the altissimo landscape using real overtones without the help of the octave key. On trumpet, OTOH, you have to use your ear and produce overtones if you ever want to play beyond a range of one -1- octave. Brass instruments come close to the most difficult instrument of them all, the human voice; they are the only two instruments relying on vibrations of a part of the human being for producing the sound (vibrating lips and vibrating vocal chords, respectively). Compared to this, reed players are much more distant from the sound production (half-way between trumpet and synthesizer, :-)), so, please, may we all be humble towards singers and trumpeters.
Cheers!
Bjørn

[sonofjabba]

When I sing it's only with the Mormon Tubercular Choir...

[hakukani]

While never having played a brass instrument, I believe it must be harder than saxophone. Trumpet or any other brass instruments are all about producing overtones. On saxophone you can rely on pressing various keys (including octave key) to produce a range of 2 and 1/2 octave from low Bb to high F#, and it is kind of cool if you manage to transcend into the altissimo landscape using real overtones without the help of the octave key. On trumpet, OTOH, you have to use your ear and produce overtones if you ever want to play beyond a range of one -1- octave. Brass instruments come close to the most difficult instrument of them all, the human voice; they are the only two instruments relying on vibrations of a part of the human being for producing the sound (vibrating lips and vibrating vocal chords, respectively). Compared to this, reed players are much more distant from the sound production (half-way between trumpet and synthesizer, :-)), so, please, may we all be humble towards singers and trumpeters.
Cheers!
Bjørn

OTOH, when improvising you have a 1 in 7 chance of having the correct valve combination--the rest is in the buzz.

[Bluej]

...the "buzz" is definitely the problem on trumpet. (I played trumpet since 4th grade, 1959). It took me almost 2 years to build up my chops and get into the 'Concert Band'.
About that time my sister started playing clarinet. I picked up her clarinet one day and was playing 'Sentimental Journey' in 5 minutes. Of course, I had 'trumpet chops' at that time so, clearly, I was not starting from scratch on clarinet.
Maintaining your trumpet chops is far more demanding than even soprano sax. Additionally, the fingerings, scales, etc. must all be in your head on trumpet. Everything is right there at your fingertips on the sax.