there are saxophones and VI...

[Stan]

I know a flame can start :) but this is really what I think after testing a large number of saxophones. There are saxophones and there are MKVI, that's all.
IMHO of course!

Stan

[MartinMusicMan]

it depends a LOT on what kind of music you're playing. Now, if you're playing LOUD rock 'n' roll, I think there's a better instrument ... :)

[ChuBerry47]

Let me rephrase what you have stated.


There are great saxes that don't cost a lot, and there are VI's which cost $4000 or more.


;)

[silverselmer]

Let me rephrase what you have stated.


There are great saxes that don't cost a lot, and there are VI's which cost $4000 or more.


;)

not true, I got my alto for $3600 :)

[J.Max]

I know a flame can start :) but this is really what I think after testing a large number of saxophones. There are saxophones and there are MKVI, that's all.
IMHO of course!

Stan

Thank you, Mr. Pittell...oh wait...sorry...

[Pgraves]

it depends a LOT on what kind of music you're playing. Now, if you're playing LOUD rock 'n' roll, I think there's a better instrument ... :)


"LOUD" rock 'n roll overwhelms the loudest saxophone.
I agree, the better instrument would be a mic'ed up VI.

[ChuBerry47]

not true, I got my alto for $3600 :)


Okay $3600 or more. My point exactly. Not bad saxes, just overrated a lot of the time.

[Hurling Frootmig]

Okay $3600 or more. My point exactly. Not bad saxes, just overrated a lot of the time.

Don't knock them till you try them.

You play a Conn which is in many ways a very different animal. Notice I didn't say worse or better just different. At my woodwindforum site you will find an article I wrote about the Mark VI and where I felt it ranked with the various members of the saxophone family. If you look at the recent which Mark VI do you own poll you will see that most folks own tenors and altos. Then sopranos and finally Bari's.

Are Mark VI's expensive - yes. But people seem to keep paying what they are going for and there are a number of people who believe that Selmer hasn't made a better tenor and or alto since they stopped production on the VI.

It seems like Stan, while a little overly enthusiastic, has found his preferred horn.

[SaxyAcoustician]

And then there are those who play the hell out of any horn--Mark VI or not.

[ChuBerry47]

And then there are those who play the hell out of any horn--Mark VI or not.


:D

[Hurling Frootmig]

And then there are those who play the hell out of any horn--Mark VI or not.
All that matters is how it plays! I know that sounds familiar to me. Where did I hear that?

[mlscnr]

What do you expect from someone who plays a lime green mouthpiece? :D

I have played my share of horns, too, and I never liked any Mark VI tenor I tried. Mark VI altos, that's another story - they are among the best.

But there are and have been way too many excellent horns made to dismiss them all in favor of one. That's just plain silly. But most Selmer players are...

[Hurling Frootmig]

I'm not so sure I would call all Selmer players silly. Even Bootman just bought a Ref 36 flamingo and I wouldn't dream of calling him silly.

[wersax]

What do you expect from someone who plays a lime green mouthpiece? :D

I have played my share of horns, too, and I never liked any Mark VI tenor I tried. Mark VI altos, that's another story - they are among the best.

But there are and have been way too many excellent horns made to dismiss them all in favor of one. That's just plain silly. But most Selmer players are...
That's funny. Most people I've known have preferred MK VI's for tenor, not alto. In my experience, a lot of alto VI's are difficult in the lower register--I had an early YAS-62 that blew away any of the VI alto's I've played. But it's personal and you've got to find what works for you. I like the "long bow", larger bore, older tenor VI's, the 5 digit horns, but there are a lot of good horns out there. It's best to try a lot of horns and see what you can get to work for you within your budget......Daryl

[littlemanbighorn]

Okay $3600 or more. My point exactly. Not bad saxes, just overrated a lot of the time.

My VI cost me $800 and an $800 overhaul.

[leseylex]

And then there are those who play the hell out of any horn--Mark VI or not.

touche!

[BayviewSax]

LBH, hook me up with one for that price, will ya?

So, supposing one owns two Mark VIs (tenor and bari) AND a Conn (alto); will this make that person more accessible to both groups, are ostracized by both? The whole argument, as Hurling Frootmig points out without stating, is quite silly. Stan, congrats on finding your horn; they do tend to be great.

[littlemanbighorn]

LBH, hook me up with one for that price, will ya?

So, supposing one owns two Mark VIs (tenor and bari) AND a Conn (alto); will this make that person more accessible to both groups, are ostracized by both? The whole argument, as Hurling Frootmig points out without stating, is quite silly. Stan, congrats on finding your horn; they do tend to be great.

I would get you one, but being a Conn owner I'm not allowed to talk to you.

I was just in the right place at the right time. I was working at a music shop and The Navy Band in Victoria needed a low A horn, so they traded in the VI. They didn't need any money from it (they were actually having difficulty spending their whole budget) and the horn needed work(dents, keywork and pads.) so the owner of the store(who's a notorious tightwad) gave them a lowball offer. They took it and the manager turned around and sold it to me for $50 more than the trade in price. (and neglected to mention the great price he sold it to me for to the owner.) I would have felt a little bad if they hadn't been a huge, colossal, demanding bunch of PIA's.

[Helen]

Don't knock them till you try them.

Amen to that. Thank you Ed for saying this.

Now before I get flamed here, let me point out that what I'm going to say is not referencing people who have responded to this thread....

I find it really tiring to keep reading and hearing comments from people who haven't tried them, and yet have some kind of opinion on them. I've had more than a few discussions with sax players who approach me at shows and talk to me and tell me how the horn I play is not as good as their...fill in the blank with brandname/model of choice...I don't really care. I'm not into that discussion, and for the life of me can't figure out why people want to argue with me that their sax is better than mine. I can't imagine doing that to anyone. What is wrong with people?

The other thing that we have to keep in mind is that we're not talking about new horns here. Just because someone has tried one or two, that doesn't mean all can be painted with the same brush. These handmade horns varied when new (just like new handmade horns vary today), and now have 30-50 years of use/misuse and servicing...some by good techs, some by techs that weren't/aren't very good. There are no absolutes here.



...At my woodwindforum site you will find an article I wrote about the Mark VI and where I felt it ranked with the various members of the saxophone family. If you look at the recent which Mark VI do you own poll you will see that most folks own tenors and altos. Then sopranos and finally Bari's.



I loved your description of the soprano as being the "ugly stepchild"!

[Stan]

What do you expect from someone who plays a lime green mouthpiece? :D

I have played my share of horns, too, and I never liked any Mark VI tenor I tried. Mark VI altos, that's another story - they are among the best.

But there are and have been way too many excellent horns made to dismiss them all in favor of one. That's just plain silly. But most Selmer players are...

Should I switch to the orange fluorescent one? :D
I don't know if "most Selmer players are..." is this your experience?
Regards,

Stan

[Dog Pants]

I'm not so sure I would call all Selmer players silly. Even Bootman just bought a Ref 36 flamingo and I wouldn't dream of calling him silly.

Bah! and bollocks.

Hurling,

Go ahead and call him silly. He won't mind. I call him an idiot daily.

In fact here's a couple of very valid reasons to call him silly:

1. He just bought a Ref 36 and his missus will eventually find out how much it costs, at which point, he'll be living at my place and eating my bad cooking.

2. His main car is in the repairers for the next few months, having hail damage removed. So his vehicle of the moment, is a race-spec Alfa GTV6. Sounds good until you realise that here in Oz, Christmas holidays = double fines and probable loss of licence, for any driving offence. So, in all likelyhood, Boot will join me in catching the bus for the next 3 months.

3. Our best mate has just gotten a new job as a.....wait for it.....Pool Cleaner.

Silly??? No sir, were serious musicians down here. :D ;)

[RCNELSON]

Well, not to gloat, but I bought my VI tenor (see the serial number sequence in my signature) in 1979 for $250. I will never part with it.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I loved your description of the soprano as being the "ugly stepchild"!

Well at one time (the time from about 1930 to 1960) . . . they were the ugly stepchild of the sax family.

Thanks for finding the humor in that as that was what I was trying to get across. I may go back and edit that article a bit but overall I still agree with my opinion when I wrote it.

[MartinMusicMan]

"LOUD" rock 'n roll overwhelms the loudest saxophone.
I agree, the better instrument would be a mic'ed up VI.

nope. not enough honk.

[JL]

There are saxophones and there are MKVI, that's all.
IMHO of course!

Stan

Actually you have a point here, but maybe not what everyone thinks you are implying, and maybe not actually what you mean to imply, if you are saying the MKVI stands above all the rest. I would agree that the MKVI is really one of a kind and a very successful one of a kind. It has a depth of tone, a resonance, a feel, and ergonomics that stand alone. Not necessarily better, but it seems no other horn before or since has quite matched these qualities, even though other horns may excel in some other way.

I say this as a near-convert to Buescher tenors after playing my MKVI tenor for nearly 30 years. However, with time on both models, and having tried others, I realize they all have their own qualities. But the VI definitely has something special, if and only if, you find it to be the special thing you seek. And now I'm starting to babble, so I'll leave it at that. But one more thing....

Any horn has to be in top-notch playing condition to realize its full potential. My VI fell into disrepair (leaky pads, etc) and believe me it played worse than the cheapest horn out there! Then I got it overhauled and man, what a horn.

[JL]

nope. not enough honk.

Yeah, after doing the experiment for the past four years, playing both my MKVI and 156 Aristocrat tenors, I have to admit it is much easier to get that screamin' honkin' blues-drenched sound on the Buescher. It can obviously be done on a VI but not as easily. Long live those great old American vintage horns! Probably the VI has a more "complex" harmonically-dense sound, but the best of the Martins, Bueschers, Conns, & Kings can really rip it up.

[Al Stevens]

This poor horse. Blunt force trauma.

[OnyxSax]

The VI is a great horn. What makes it great is that while there are many horns that can do something better than the Mark VI (i.e. bigger sound, better keywork, etc.), the Mark VI does everything well and it is as rugged as a battleship. It is a very stable horn and plays well even when leaking from half of its pads.

Now, with that being said, when I was involuntarily separated from my Mark VI, I ended up taking the insurance settlement, purchasing a Big B Buescher Aristocrat using only 40% of the money from the insurance company. I will tell you this, the Buescher certainly is not 40% the horn. In my experience, with the exception of the keywork, it will go toe to toe with the Mark VI in every other category and actually possesses better intonation and an easier altissimo. With the Buescher, I finally found that sound that I was so desperately looking for.

With the remaining money, I purchased a Yamaha Motif 7 keyboard, and then pocketed the rest.

I like the Mark VI, but it is not the end-all, be-all. Every sax player is different, and if you can find your sound on a Bundy II...that's the best horn for you.

[JL]

This poor horse. Blunt force trauma.

Quite right. But I think it's the price of MKVIs that keeps this horse at least kicking back a bit.

[frankm]

I bought my 5 digit tenor Mark VI in about 1976, and I've been playing it ever since. However my long romance almost ended a few years ago when I tried a mint Conn Naked Lady. It had been in a case since the early 40s. It was overhauled by a local pro and I had the pleasure of spending a couple hours with it. I was tempted to buy it, but decided to be faithful. My only real beef with the Conn was it felt "wrong".....I really can't explain it....but it felt weird under the fingers after years of playing Selmers. I really loved the sound though.

[Dr G]

You sound like another candidate for a Borgani.

:borg:

[Tryptykon]

This poor horse. Blunt force trauma.

Yah, but it's dead so ...;)

[GeneraloftheSaxArmy]

Well...

I recently got a new Keilwerth SX90R nickel silver tenor in favor of all others.

I tried everything under the sun: Yamahas, Selmers (new and old), Yanis, vintage...

I was able to try a VI priced at $11k. (wow...) and honestly, nothing special. the action was nice, the tone was fine...but nothing special. Personally, I like new action better, but the sound was just...I dunno, not amazing? Didn't wow me like the KW.

[Captain Beeflat]

You sound like another candidate for a Borgani.

:borg:
Or indeed a Rampone & Cazzani R1, which uses the bore dimensions of the 1940s Conn with modern key work.
My wife & I attended an Art Themen gig the other night; he plays a modern silver Borgani tenor very well indeed. My wife commented that the bore of the Borgani seemed small in comparison with my R&C.

[martinm5862]

Well...

I recently got a new Keilwerth SX90R nickel silver tenor in favor of all others.

I tried everything under the sun: Yamahas, Selmers (new and old), Yanis, vintage...

I was able to try a VI priced at $11k. (wow...) and honestly, nothing special. the action was nice, the tone was fine...but nothing special. Personally, I like new action better, but the sound was just...I dunno, not amazing? Didn't wow me like the KW.

I think the truth is - If you adjusted and setup properly every horn mentioned in this thread and recorded every one using the same mouthpiece, reed and player and played back the recordings the next day, you couldn't tell one horn from the next. It's the PLAYER, the mouthpiece and the reed that makes the difference. All modern horns are MarkV1 clones anyway. Phil Woods, for example sounds the same playing a Yamaha as he did on his Mark V1. I don't think I could tell if he switched to a vintage Conn or King. Apparently every contributer to this thread could however.

[Mark5047]

Hey now - isn't the Mark VI the instrument of choice for Kenny G?

[ChuBerry47]

That must be why all these people want to play one. ;) I used to play one, so I am not ranting.

[GeneraloftheSaxArmy]

I think the truth is - If you adjusted and setup properly every horn mentioned in this thread and recorded every one using the same mouthpiece, reed and player and played back the recordings the next day, you couldn't tell one horn from the next. It's the PLAYER, the mouthpiece and the reed that makes the difference. All modern horns are MarkV1 clones anyway. Phil Woods, for example sounds the same playing a Yamaha as he did on his Mark V1. I don't think I could tell if he switched to a vintage Conn or King. Apparently every contributer to this thread could however.


I agree to an extent. The horn does have a bearing on how the player sounds, but it's true: you probably couldn't tell the difference without paying VERY close attention. It's just very annoying when everyone has Selmeritis and if you play on anything but a VI, you're playing on a sub-standard horn.

I wish you were judged on how you play instead of what you play on.

Oh, and not all horns are VI clones. The VI had some great innovations which were used, but that;'s like saying anything that builds upon the previous model is a clone. the keyword today is much different And KWs have bigger bows and bells; different dimensions. Not everything is a VI clone.

[JL]

I wish you were judged on how you play instead of what you play on. .

Actually, the truth is you are judged on how you play, by the audience. Most audience members won't know one horn from another. Some won't even know if you're playing a tenor or an alto, let alone whether it's a MKVI. What they will know is whether you sound good or not.

My own band mates rarely notice whether I'm playing the VI or my Buescher. Even though the Buescher is silver-plated and shiny and the VI has about 60% lacquer.

I do think that how a horn feels and responds to YOU can make a difference in how well you play, even though others might not hear a difference in tone.

[Mark5047]

Well, not to gloat, but I bought my VI tenor (see the serial number sequence in my signature) in 1979 for $250. I will never part with it.

Ron, you sure about that? I could give you DOUBLE what you paid for it!! Thats a nice horn you got there.... Just kidding - I miss hearing you play though.

[BayviewSax]

You sound like another candidate for a Borgani.

:borg:

Now *THERE* is a horn that did NOT impress me.

[Hurling Frootmig]

My own band mates rarely notice whether I'm playing the VI or my Buescher. Even though the Buescher is silver-plated and shiny and the VI has about 60% lacquer.

Yet how many guitarists would be aghast if you didn't know the difference between a Gibson and a Fender. Try it out sometime. :D

[JL]

Yet how many guitarists would be aghast if you didn't know the difference between a Gibson and a Fender. Try it out sometime. :D

LOL, how right you are. Sometimes I show them how much I know by using words like "hollow-body." Man, guitarists are way worse than us horn players when it comes to GAS. Every guitarist I know has a roomful of guitars!

[58tenor]

I've heard those MKVI horns are popular. Should I get some? What's the best sounding serial number for loud rock and jazz but no R&B or fusion except early Spyro Gyra? Should I get one on Ebay?

[Michael Ward]

Yes get some and from Ebay. The best serial number for what you're looking for is 106324. Try and get as near to this as possible maybe within ten numbers.

[wersax]

Onyxsax said: "The VI is a great horn. What makes it great is that while there are many horns that can do something better than the Mark VI (i.e. bigger sound, better keywork, etc.), the Mark VI does everything well and it is as rugged as a battleship. It is a very stable horn and plays well even when leaking from half of its pads."

I think this sums up the MK VI. Back before eBay and collectors, you could get VI's for the price of a new horn so they were a great deal. Now, the prices are just crazy.....

[Dr_sax]

The VI is a great horn.... It is a very stable horn and plays well even when leaking from half of its pads.
...

I couldn´t agree more.
Just about 2 years ago I first visited my now constant sax-tech for just a small check up. He couldn´t believe that I was everyday playing it. He showed me one leak after the other. On some the leather was worn and the felt was coming thru. :shock: I didn´t notice it. I still played great.
I admitt after a complete overhaul it played unbelievably great :D

[SAXISMYAXE]

It is all a matter of taste, Selmerites. I have a brace (like my terminology?:D) of MKVI horns in my collection, and they remain in their cases 95% of the time. I simply prefer a number of other makes/models.

Play what you prefer, no need to convert the masses.

[MartinMusicMan]

I've heard those MKVI horns are popular. Should I get some?

Yes, we call them "Mickey Vee." Get several, they're better that way.

[Rackety Sax]

...My wife commented that the bore of the Borgani seemed small in comparison with my R&C.
What, she brought her calipers with her? How could anyone tell that just from looking?

[JL]

It is all a matter of taste, Selmerites. I have a brace (like my terminology?:D) of MKVI horns in my collection, and they remain in their cases 95% of the time. I simply prefer a number of other makes/models.

Play what you prefer, no need to convert the masses.

Mike, which horns do you prefer/play? Out of curiosity, not to convert anyone!

[SAXISMYAXE]

Hi JL,

I really prefer the Martin Committees and King Super 20 horns for Alto, Tenor and Baritone.

Granted, most of this preference is tied to tone, flexibility, and projection, but I do absolutely fine in the speed, fluency and intonation departments as well.

I am a long time devotee of the Conn horns as well, although I've settled on the first two makes for most applications within the last few years.

Cheers.

[michaelbaird]

What do you guys think of the prices of BAs and SBAs. They are just getting ridiculous...Granted I have a VI tenor, but if I needed to replace it, I would probably just buy a new Selmer. The most underrated horn on the planet IMHO is the VII. My VII alto is as good as my tenor, it looks like ****, and I got a good deal on it.

[Peter B]

I play 1st alto in a concert band, and have never really had an interest in any other instrument in the sax family. This changed when a freind of mine called me and said that he had been given an old tenor sax, but he didn't want it and me being the only sax player he knew, would I like it. Needless to say I accepted my friend's kind and generous offer.

What I got was a rather grubby silver plated tenor without mouthpiece or case, but with all the silver plate in good condition under the dirt and surprisingly with no dents or scratches anywhere. My heart lifted when I saw beutifully engraved on the side of the bell in large copperplate letters - JP Selmer, 4 Place Dancourt, Paris, ser No 18874.

I went and bought a cheap student tenor piece and a Vandoren #2 reed and gave it a blow.........WOW !!!! This thing took my breath away. Such a beautiful deep rich tone and what an easy blow - the notes just flowed out of it so effortlessly it was unbelievable. I couldn't put it down for days, but after playing it a while a couple of the pads got a bit spongy, one spring broke, (which I fixed with a rubber band), and the workings started to rattle a lot.

I did a bit of exploratory cleaning of the bell and the gorgeous what looks like hand rather than machine engraved leafscrolling came up like new. This encouraged me to take it to the technician who services my alto, who reckons it needs a complete strip down, clean, repadding, respringing, rebuild and set up which would cost me about £200.

I think it's quite old, so I'd welcome advice from any Selmer experts out there whether it's worth spending a couple of hundred on, or whether I should just carry on playing it for fun at home in its present grubby, rattly state with a rubber band working the G# pad!!

Peter

(Oooooops this was supposed to be a new thread but I accidentally posted it as a reply to your thread Stan, sorry!!! I've reposted as a new thread as well)

[hgiles]

It's just a tool...any horn for that matter.

[Bootman]

For RocknRoll or Blues, the magna works far better than the Flamingo does. and as a result I will take the magna to anything remotely needing extreme volume. The magna does all the splits, cracked notes and plays more securely and strongly in the alt than does the Selmer.

As for being silly, I am very silly and feel free to tell me so........

I love both the magna and the flamingo for very different reasons. I also really dig the Conn tranny tenor for a different sound again. Each horn has it'
s own stregths and chosing which one to take can be a rather a lot fun.

[benedictbranca]

If they were that great they wouldn't be flippin spread around from player to player and buyer to buyer! They are always up for sale, and thats because there are numerous better saxophones out there, which I must also add are in NEW condition! The mark vi was great at the time when it was what every player bought and was one of the few geat saxophones available on the market! Today is a different story! There are mark vi's and then there are plenty of other amazing saxophones out there being made new which match if not better most mark vi's! Its just a saxophone in the end, its not that different to a lot of other horns!