Nickel plated keys on a Cigar Cutter

[ClaudeMorris]

I own an Alto Cigar Cutter 1931 serial #15039. It has a lacquered body and nickel plated keys. Until now, I have never seen another like this. Does anyone know about this model?

[SuperAction80]

Selmer has offered custom plating options for a long time. I've never seen Nickel plated keys on a lacquered body with a Cigar Cutter though. The earliest example of this combination I've come across was a Super Action being sold on eBay a while back. Could you post some pictures?

[JPSaxMan]

Mark VI's had the nickel plated keys as well. But again - that was the latest I was aware of. Wow - impressive!

[AMASAX]

two tone finishes have been available for a long time on Selmer saxes. However, they've mainly been a Euro thing because they were never promoted/advertised much in U.S. catalogs.
On later vintage Selmers, these typically have Euro engraving, too, which gives away the origin.

[bruce bailey]

I got mine in 1964 in France and at the time the standard finish was silver plate and second was gold lacquer. I got mine with gold lacquered body and silver plated keys. I have never seen a nickel plated Selmer. With the Cigar Cutter, it is so old that it could have had the keys plated during a repad. Are you sure it is nickel and not silver?

[Stan]

I have two VI altos. One has silver plated keys the other one has nickel plated keys:

http://www.hobbysax.com/Mysix.html

Stan

[ClaudeMorris]

Here are some pictures

[SuperAction80]

With the Cigar Cutter, it is so old that it could have had the keys plated during a repad.

Now that I've seen the horn, I'm wondering the same thing. There doesn't seem to be any expected wear on the nickel plate at all. OTOH, my Conn NW has been played extensively for at least the 5 years that I've had it, and there is virtually no wear to its nickel plated keys. I have pretty acidic sweat too and have worn the plating off of Yamaha 23's and Bundy student horns after about a year of heavy use. I suppose that plating back then was much thicker than it is today. So to answer you honestly Claude...we still have no idea. :|

[JPSaxMan]

Nickel plating in general is a very durable finish - hence why the keys on student horns are plated with nickel. I would be to say that the nickel is original and is thick nickel, thick enough to withstand years of use or years in a closet.

[ClaudeMorris]

I am pretty shure the nickle plating is original. You can see it under the mechanisim or on small parts. I was just wondering if there exist many other of this kind, because all the others I have seen are or all silver plated or all lacquered.

[JPSaxMan]

The nickel plating, to my knowledge, on any horn earlier than the Mark VI is not common. It's not even all that common on VI's or VII's or later horns as well. The nickel plating was a custom option for a more durable (so to say) horn. So - take it for what it's worth, but I bet in the market you'd only get a smaller more amount due to the nickel plating, though I could be dead wrong.

[SuperAction80]

Now from what everything I've read about nickel plate, it was commonly used on student horns because it was durable as you have stated JP. Now people have said that the trade off comes from an action that is slightly heavier and more cumbersome. I've never played a VI with laquered keys back to back with a VI with nickel plated keys so I really couldn't tell you. Is there any truth to what I've heard, or is it just a rumor?

[JPSaxMan]

I'm not sure if nickel plating hinders the action - though it could be possible. I say this because I've played on many Yamaha 23's and I believe they still use nickel on their horns; and the actions on many of these are pretty friggin' good for a student horn. So, I could be wrong, but it could be an interesting comparison to make.

[SuperAction80]

Yeah same here. Most of the nickel plated horns I've played have belonged to Yamaha 23's, Armstrongs, Bundy II's, ect. It really isn't fair to judge a student horn to the same standards of a pro horn, but I agree with you that the 23 is a very cool model.

My New Wonder is completely nickel plated, and I hardly consider it a student horn, but the archaic keywork is so different from anything modern that once again you can't make a good comparison to a modern pro horn with plated keys. I can't compare it with other New Wonders that I have available either as all of them have plated keys. I guess we'll have to wait for Stan to chirp in on this one.

Wow...my 200th post. No wonder my tone has been suffering. lol

[trane in training]

I don't really know much about key plating....does it affect the tone at all, or is it just cosmetic?

[JPSaxMan]

I don't think key plating affects anything with the tonal or phonetic qualities of the instrument, but we're questioning whether or not the plating affects the action (which I don't believe it does, but could be wrong).

[trane in training]

hmm, you wouldn't think that the composition of the keys would really make much of a difference in the action...unless it was set up differently. I mean, I've played lacquer horns and silver plated horns of the same model, and the action felt the same. And, if anything, silver is more dense than nickel, so I couldn't imagine silver having no effect and nickel having an effect...

but then again...I'm learning new things every day!:D

[ClaudeMorris]

Talking of the Cigar cutter, the difficulty comes definitely more from the old conception of the mechanism than from the nickel plating.

[Tharruff]

C'mon guys...keys ? plating ? slower action ?

That makes ZERO sense to me...

The keys are not made of lead...they are plated brass. I'll bet that if you weighed the whole stack of keys, a plated set against an unplated set there probably wouldn't be a gram of difference in the weight. The thickness of the plating is 'probably' less that 1/1000 of an inch...

[JPSaxMan]

How does this not make any sense? Nickel is heavier than brass, thus when applied to brass adds weight, even if it is a gram. This weight that is thus added results in a change of said action. This is more so in the case of sensitive actions like that on the Selmer Paris.

[daddywagsmusic]

My MKVI 1957 Alto has nickle plated keys, with light colored lacquered body - and euro engraving.

My MKVI 1971 Soprano has Silver plated keys, and the light colored lacquered body, and euro engraving.

You can see pics of my on my myspace page - linked off my website - www.bradwagner.net

I have also seen pictures of Paquito D’Rivera (even talked to him about it once), Johnny Griffin, Dexter Gordon, Ted Nash, all with lacquered horns with silver or nickel keys, mostly MKVI's though. And my sax teacher from CCM had a soprano like mine with Silver plated keys, before I ever got mine. I almost bought a MKVI tenor with silver plated keys and no engraving once to match my alto and soprano, but passed...

I have seen old Selmer catalouges showing the finish options for both the body and keys. I love the way they look. I hate getting asked if its a bundy, and I have to admit, I have just said yes once, and then the sax player will go on and on about how good it sounds, and I tried to clue him in my holding it up so he could see the bell and neck... and he had no clue. Kept telling me MKVI is the only way to go, but he has never heard a bundy that was so nice.

I have also played plenty of just regular lacquered horns, and some silver plated horns as well. As far as key weight differences - if you get that particular - you have to weight the pad, the glue (which kind, how much), the resonator (plastic, silver, brass, how heavy is the screw), the corks or leather on the back of the keys, and make sure you are using a key on a rod with NO restriction, no bends, has been swedged to a perfect fit and swivel for the rod and horn, and then make sure all of those factors are exactly the same on the other horn you are comparing it to, and then use some sort of pressure gauge to measure the spring tensions (which might make all the difference), and then use the exact same amount of pressure when pushing down the key, and then be able to accurately measure the difference between the horns with plated or unplated keys. Not to mention the pad job, how level the tone holes are, that the same person did the pad job, and most importantly, that the keys are exactly the same in weight to begin with, and made the same size wise, and have the exactly same proportion of metals in that key (copper, brass, zinc, lead, whatever is in these horns), probably from the same day at the factory and from the same workers only. I just think it gets a little crazy to start thinking you could even consider one way something is plated can be compared to another. If you have played 3 silver plated horns of the same make and model, you should know - one probably played dark, one bright, and one was probably a lemon... but everyone has an opinion - "silver horns play bright" "silver horns play dark" - but thats all just my opinion...

Sure would be nice to have more horns like this. I like the uniqueness of a different looking horn also. But it has to play good. I don't own a new selmer, but its cool that in the past few years they have offered so many options, and yamaha too. Both companies have had the laq, silver, gold, black, white, sandblased, matte... and more.

So, above it all, how does this Cigar Cutter play??!?!?!?!?!

[AMASAX]

Nickel plating was also commonly used for military band horns in Europe. Probably durability & tarnish resistant issues, especially for horns used outside in the weather. Sometimes these horns also have some military id stuff stamped on them somewhere.

[Stan]

I totally agree with you daddywagsmusic!

Stan

[ClaudeMorris]

to answer Daddywagsmusic, it plays beautifully.