Keilwerth Research

[Pete]

As mentioned in another thread (http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=5179), I'm thinking about all things King, and eventually got to The New King, one of the many wonderful Keilwerth articles.

Yes, KW fans, I'm working on some Keilwerth pages for my website (www.saxpics.com). I just ask for some help, if y'all can provide it:

* If you have a VERY low serial number Keilwerth, say under 10,000, please send me some pictures of your horn -- or at least send me a nice description of it.

* If you have a Selmer Pennsylvania Special or other Selmer-labelled horn that says "Made in Germany" or "Made in Czechoslovakia", please e-mail me. Jason, please resend your horn's s/n!

* If you just have kewl pics of your horn, send 'em my way.

Thank you all.
Pete
saxpics@hotmail.com (text only)
saxpics@x-mail.net (pictures)

[sarge]

Pete,
You know I'm koo koo for keilwerths... you should have just asked. I have a 1926 alto that is designed after the Conn Artist, with Pearls on every key, ser 90x. and about 6 more KW's. tone king, kew king.
i hereby authorize you to copy pics from my website. the pics are on my "finest" page, near the bottom.
I really hope you do get kw a page of it's own at your site. :D

[Pete]

How could I forget you, Sarge?

I've got the pictures. Deluxe model. Very nice. Very rare. Do you remember if the neck's a microtuner and whether it had an underslung octave key?

I'm wondering if I should do a page on the Kohlerts first, though. It'd be nice to see where Keilwerth came from!

I'm definitely going to have to have a section on Richard Keilwerth and some of his horns, too.

[madav]

When I bought my New King Tenor (23***) recently, there was a little additional information about the history of the keilwerth production and the difference between the production of the 2 brothers and the move to Nauheim. It is unsubstantiated and may you have it alrezady...?

[sarge]

Pete,
The neck is a replica of the microtuner neck. The G# key is a large pearl, that has a crosshatch patteren filed into it, like a Chu nailfile G#. This JK Deluxe sax also has a trill key, where Tone Kings later put their high F# key, that allows a trill from high C to D. really much more useful than a high f# key, considering the altissimo fingerings that one can use to hit a high F# with, compared to the extreme difficulty of trilling from C to D with out the trill key. another neat keilwerth idea.
Did the pics you downloaded have the red background... those are the newest ones.
s.

[Pete]

Thanks for posting more pics, sarge! I just had the older ones.

I'm also glad to see more of the engraving.

Jason DuMars, he of www.saxophone.org fame, has one of the Pennsylvania Special horns that look extrodinarily close to this but has an underslung octave key and right-hand bell keys.

(I've also seen you're a frequent poster on the Boosey forum. I'll be going there a lot. They're very slow responding to my post request because of the Great Boosey Reorg.)

That's a D# trill, right? If it's actually a whole step trill, I'll be very interested.

Do send me any other historical info you might have!

=========

madav, as far as I can tell (and I have seen), Keilwerth started construction of their saxophones in Czechoslovakia and then moved to Germany. I've further been told that the Toneking was the Czech-made equivalent of the New King and when production was completely moved to Germany, the Toneking became the "pro" model and the New King became an intermediate model.

Considering I've found a number of older Tonekings, this assumption is false.

AFAIK, JK produced his own horns and had no input from his brothers. Max and Richard did make saxophones, notably the Hohner and Weltklang bari (respectively).

[sarge]

Pete,
You know, now that you bring it up, I only tested it originally for hi C to D,(a full step) , but i just tried it again and it also trills very nicely from hi D to D#. I'm even more impressed. i pulled out the chromatic tuner and with my slant sig. O. Link it was within 5 cents on either/any notes. it came with a "Tone King" Le Jaseur mouthpiece, very cool looking, (and plays even more in tune) but i will have to have it opened up more to suit my overblown style.
Yes, I am 50% Czechoslovakian and my great great grandparents were musicians there, so I find it interesting... I have info on much history of the Czech music industry and it's eventual move to Nauheim, but it was in German and the translator is kinda rough. it talks about every aspect, violins, brass, clarinets... and not much about kw.
I know that julius learned sax design at the kohlert co. and then started off on his own... from there it's been told a couple different ways, by boosey and KW.
but i'll shell out whatever I can find, if you make a kw page. :wink:

[Pete]

I've finially finished the Keilwerth page -- actually, pages: all of two. They're at http://www.saxpics.com/keilwerth/

I spent most of my time researching the horns and company -- and then updating the navigation system to make heavy use of Javascript. (And uploading about 50mb of new pictures.)

I think you'll like the result. Please check it out and make comments on how to improve -- and, of course, send more pics!

[sarge]

Pete,
top notch job, great research and pics. :D Many thanks from the KW enthusiasts around the world. I do have a friend with a new king bari, but it's a later model with metal bell key guards... I'll try to get him to send you a pic or two, at some point.
sarge

[Morry]

Saxpics,

As a recent JK convert, thanks for all the background info.

[Lenny]

Very cool and incredibly complicated. Good Research - kudos.

I'm wondering if you guys can help with a question I've had no responses to on the forum.
I have a lead on a very reasonable Superba II soprano which is a bit of a pain to get to see. I want to know whether to bother.
So how good are these horns and how similar are they to a modern SX90 both in tone, intonation and keywork. (I play a black SX90II.)

[Pete]

I'm glad y'all like it. It took me three days of searching and testing just to find the right Javascript. I've again gotta thank sarge here for his picture and info contributions -- and he also pointed me in some good directions.

==========

RE: research. I asked Buffet (when it was still Boosey & Hawkes) a question regarding contrabasses about three months ago. Two weeks ago I finally got a response: "We no longer have information on Evette & Schaeffer horns." I'm assuming I'll get the same answer on the H-Couf 3100/32000 horns (as mentioned on my 'site -- and on this forum -- they're probably not Keilwerth made, anyway).

==========

RE: Superba II soprano: Lenny, you should find someone here that owns or plays one. Also check out the Keilwerth Forum archive. All I can tell you, because I haven't played a Superba II soprano, is that they're professional horns. My only real Keilwerth experience is playing a New King stencil Keilwerth Bundy baritone (see the other caveats on my website).

If your SX90 doesn't have the tone-hole rings, which I believe is uncommon, that'd be the equivalent of the Superba II, as far as comparing pro-level to pro-level. Do note that there are definite keywork changes, bore tweaking, etc. in the SX90 -- aside from the point it's two professional models newer.

The official word from Keilwerth (check out their forum) is that the Superba II is a nice horn, but the SX90 is bettter because, well, it's newer (paraphrase of an exact quote). Look at the comparision pics that both Keilwerth and I have on our respective websites. You'll see that the two horns even look fairly different (look at the placement of the low bell keys, especially).

If you'd like a suggestion, try to play both side-by-side. The general comment I've heard is that the H-Coufs are "mellower" than the newer horns. I don't recall any particular comments about intonation. I didn't have much problem with my bari, but soprano intonation is quite a different matter.

[SteveZ]

Wow! great research! That New King III tenor called "Metro" that you have in the pictures was actually a Newk stencil made without engraving for Lockee Music exchange in Los Angeles, at that time the biggest music store in the area. I picked one of these up about six months ago, and stencil schmensil---it's a wonderful horn. Don't think there was any difference between Keilwerth stencils and non-stencils--just the engraving.

[Pete]

SteveZ, agreed -- to a great extent.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but yes -- if the horn looks like a New King or Toneking, it's a New King or Toneking. It doesn't matter what's engraved on the bell.

Now, please note what I say about horns marketed as student/intermediate horns: they may use the same template as a professional horn, but they're probably made with lower quality materials, lack features or were produced with less attention to quality control. The example I use is the Champion model, which was stripped of its microtuner neck and rolled tone holes -- and then Boosey and Hawkes marketed it as one of their horns.

:arrow: At this point, I wouldn't consider any Boosey and Hawkes models to be on-par with any pro-model Keilwerths. Don't let eBay copy sway you :)

Keilwerth themselves have confirmed that some Kohlerts are definitely Keilwerth designed and/or made, so these are still definitely horns to look at. Skip the Winniden models, right now -- the VKS, 55, 57 and 59 anre the ones to look out for (I think Kohlert may be my next major project for my website).

Finally, remember that there are lots of smaller companies out there that used JK bodies, but used their own keywork. If it doesn't say, "Keilwerth" and "Made in Germany" (or "CSR" or "Czechoslovakia") or "JK - The Best in the World", it's probably not a Keilwerth. The examples I use are that beautifully made Esquire horn (although it lacks many New King features) and the Dorfler and Jurka horns.

[Pete]

I finally got a response from Keilwerth: the H-Couf 3100 and 3200 were made by Armstrong. Took 'em awhile to respond ...

[Ronnie]

I'm just curious. I've read somewhere that 3100 and 3200 are made from Keilwerth-manufactured parts and assembled by Armstrong. Would you please give clarification to this?

[Pete]

I've heard from various sources, "Armstrong, after their agreement to have H-Couf horns produced for them ended, purchased saxophone bodies from Keilwerth for awhile" (or words to that effect). My above comment from Keilwerth seems to contradict that.

I suppose someone could do some bore measurements on the 3100 and 3200 and compare them to the H-Couf horns, and then we'd have a definitive answer. Until then, I think we have to go with what Keilwerth says and say that the 3100/3200 are 100% Armstrong creations.

[Leo]

Saxpics,

I just thought you could help me in identifying my alto. The keywork, body-bell connection, key guards etc. look pretty much like the Keilwerth Toneking Series I on your "The New King, Toneking and Stencils" page, except for this alto lacks the G# trill key. No high F# key, no front F key either. The neck does have a microtuner. The tone holes are rolled. There's the word KING engraved on the bell with some simple geometrical pattern. No "JK Best in the World" engraving. Under the 15xxx S/N, there's a circle containing a triangle with JKG letters and TRADE MARK words, under this sign it says MODELL 3. When I tried to type the serial number on Keilwerth web pages, it was recognized as coming from the 1939 year, but I'm not really sure about it being Keilwerth S/N in the first place. The double L in MODELL suggests that it is not of post-WWII Czech origin, because in Czech language, this word contains just one L, and with the way things were in former Czechoslovakia right after the WWII, nobody would put a word in German language on their product at that time. Can you make anything out of this information?

BTW, this horn has an incredible sound :-)

[azulpurpureo]

intrested in amati toneking with best in the world engraving (keilwerth?)?; serial number: 23286, bare brass, tenor.

when i get the pictures i will send you them anyway; i will get a digital camera soon.

[Ronnie]

Maybe I'm stretching this a little bit more. I saw an 80's (probably '84) Couf ad showing Grover Washington Jr. endorsing their saxophones (but in the poster, only the soprano was shown). Currently, he play Keilwerths. One rule of endorsement is to actually use the product. I am not familiar with the history of Herbert Couf and his association with Keilwerth and Amati companies, and when the H Couf 3100 and 3200 were first introduced to the market and subsequently discontinued. Mr Washington Jr. may actually loved playing the H Couf saxes that when he switched, he switched to the original source of H Couf - Keilwerth. Please remember, this only an assumption on my part, though I can assure you, I tried to be as logical as possible.

[newking70]

couf's are keilwerth stencil's, herb couf designs sax's for keilwerth :wink:

[Randall]

Ronnie...."currently" Grover plays nothing....he died about 3 years ago.... :cry:
newk is right....Grover didn't change horns, just engraving!
When I had the pleasure to work with him, he was playing a Couf soprano and JK tenor and alto.

[Pete]

Keilwerth lives!

As mentioned elsewhere, I wrote a new mini-site for Kohlert. This essentially forced me to re-write my Keilwerth pages. I just got 'em posted. They're at www.saxpics.com/keilwerth

New stuff:
* Not too many new pics. You're going to have to wait until later in the year or if someone gives me a cable modem and free access (hint, hint).
* NEW MODEL LISTING: The Modell V.
* I finally HTML-ized the interview I got from Peter Ponzol.
* More model breakdowns. I kinda like what I did with the SX90 and Buffet horns ...
* Corrections, corrections, corrections -- such as moving the Edgware out of the Keilwerth area and putting it in it's rightful place: Kohlert.

If you're wondering how I suddenly got time to do all of this, the wife and daughter are out-of-state on vacation :)

=====

Answering questions that I haven't for a couple months:

* newking70, Herbert Couf didn't design the H-Couf any more than Daniel J. Henkin designed the DJH Modified model Conns. They're New King/Toneking stencils with different engraving.

* leo, I'd love to see your Modell 3. Take a look, above, regarding the Modell V.

[mosplace]

@ saxpics

do you want to have pictures of the shadow tenor?

[Pete]

I dunno. What's that?

[Morry]

You have been away a while. :-) They are JK's newest horn. Solid nickel, I believe, with black plating and extensive engraving.


http://www.saxophones.co.uk/shadowalto.gif

http://www.saxophones.co.uk/shadowtenor.gif

[mosplace]

I dunno. What's that?

@ saxpics

here is my link, feel free to use the pictures if you want them.

http://de.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mosplace2003/album?.dir=/b608&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//de.photos.yahoo.com/mosplace2003

Its a new SX90R black plated nickel silver body, black mother off pearls finger buttons, silver plated keys, big hand engraving, new ergonomically adapted keywork, new pads.

Great horn![/url]

[Leo]

I finally got to a scanner and some pictures of my "King Modell 3" alto (mentioned before in this thread) are now available at http://amateursax.euweb.cz/KingModell3.htm. Please let me know if you think that this horn could fit somewhere in the Keilwerth history... :-)

[newking70]

Yea i think it was the fore-runner of the newking, pre WWII. Hope that helps...... :clown:

[Pete]

Thanks!

Amusingly, the Modell V is a much, much earlier design than the 3. Someone's gotta explain that numbering scheme to me ...

[Leo]

You're welcome :-) Let me know if you want the pictures in higher resolution.

Just a thought - perhaps the V doesn't stand for 5, it could mean for example "Volks" = "people's" or "popular" or "affordable", as in Volkswagen (people's vehicle)...

[newking70]

Hey saxpics, do you know much about Luxor saxophones?

[stevesklar]

I Don't know if anyone is interested in this now but I found out that the Couf Royalist II and Armstrong model saxes were reverse engineered Keilwerths.

Mr. Couf wanted to lower the price of his "entry" horns and reverse engineered the Keilwerths and made them in the US. He still imported the Keilwerths for the Superbas and various Heritage horns here and there.

[Tandava]

I have very well made alto Pierre Maure without red pads, looks like a pro horn, any idea about this model?

[stevesklar]

If I recall correctly those Pierre Maure are in the 1960's era of Keilwerth stencils.

[Pete]

Dragging this topic back from the dead ....

A gentleman e-mailed me that he just bought a Pennsylvania Special baritone, similar to the above but in lacquer and without the extra pearls on the side keys.

But he included an odd serial number: 2566xx. Below is my response:

All righty, then: the baritone that you have pictured seems to have most of the same features of the other Penn Special baritones I have on my website, and those have been identified by OTHERS as Keilwerths -- but, note that I DON'T have serial numbers listed.

Provided that the serial number on your horn is stamped properly, it easily fits in the design of Keilwerth and Kohlert horns of that era (and, for that matter, Adler and a couple others, as well), but the serial number only fits Kohlert: it's about 1934. If you have a serial number of, say, "256xx" (i.e. one of the two sixes was misstamped), you'd have to hit 1954 on the Keilwerth chart -- and I have lots of Keilwerth horns from the 1950's: your bari is definitely not from then.

One thing I can say is that the Keilwerth and Kohlert of the 1930's was approximately identical, because there was a lot of design "sharing" going on -- and not to mention that Julius Keilwerth had worked for Kohlert. Another thing I can say is that Keilwerth had a definite association with Kohlert in the 1960's, as they produced the Bundy and Bundy Special for them, so we've got marks in both directions.

So, if you can take further pic-age of the serial number (heck, of the entire horn), I'd appreciate it. However, based SOLEY on the serial number info you've given me, it's a Kohlert. Still not a bad thing.
The one thing that threw me is that the Kohlerts of the 1920's and 1930's have a LOT of features that are literally identical to Keilwerths, including G# clusters (which almost always varies wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer). So, if you've got a Penn Special -- not the newer Pennsylvania -- I request (partial) serial-numberage and tell me if you have anything that "confirms" your horns as Keilwerth-made. I'm thinking they're Kohlerts, now, but do note that this isn't perfect: the Kohlert baris of that time may have been into the "VKS" model (http://www.saxpics.com/cpg143/index.php?cat=1602) and they had some distinctive looks that were decidedly NOT like the above Penn Special baris.

Oh. Someone also sent me pics of an H-Couf Royalist II (I think it was a II) that said, on the bell, "By Borgani".

[Tharruff]

Pete,

I have Pennsylvania Special Alto with a Serial Number of 267XXX. It is fully pearled, underslung octave key and with RTH. I have assumed that it is Keilwerth made but I really don't know.

Do you have any guess based on the serial number ?

[Pete]

We're sounding more and more like Kohlert ....

Pics, of course, are always desired, too: saxpics@gmail.com