A Zephyr Recap

[Pete]

I've been thinking about all things King for the past few days because I've been getting a lot of e-mails about them. I decided to put my own new Sax Picture Database (http://www.saxpics.com/database_project.htm) to the test and see if I could come up with anything interesting on the King Zephyr, the horn I've been most asked about.

Now, I can categorize the Zephyr into a couple of different series, or phases:

* Between s/n 180xxx and 188xxx or so: these horns were slightly redesigned Voll-True horns. Different engraving, addition of the three-ring neck strap holder and the elimination of the low Eb vent from the alto.
* Horns post 240xxx or so: the addition of the double-socket neck
* The introduction of the Zephyr Special at approximately s/n 200xxx.
* The "consolidation" of the Zephyr line around s/n 245xxx, when the Zephyr and Zephyr Special models became interchangable, except for differences in engraving and additional pearl keytouches (and other minor keywork issues, such as the G# mechanism).
* The Zephyrs produced after s/n 272xxx, the introduction of the Super 20.

Now, thre are three questions to be asked.

Question #1: What's the difference between the Zephyr Special and the Zephyr model produced between 272xxx and 305xxx?
Answer: Not much. The only apparent differences I can see are that the Zephyr lacks additional pearl keytouches, has different engraving, has a different bell-to-body brace, has some cosmetic changes to the neck on the tenor (elimination of the "3-point brace") and has different "clothes-guard" protectors. Not exactly that significant.

Question #2: What's the difference between the Zephyrs and the Super 20 model produced between 272xxx and 295xxx?
Answer: The neck, engraving, pearl keytouches and possibly the bell.
Somewhere between 295xxx and 310xxx, the Super 20 Silver-Sonic was introduced and the cosmetics of the horns changed significantly -- and it's probable that there are signifcant differences in the way some of the keywork is tooled, such as a reported different hinge arrangement on the G#, etc.

Question #3: What's this about Zephyrs produced after s/n 272xxx being "intermediate" quality?
Answer: After s/n 305xxx, maybe, but not before. The cosmetic changes after s/n 305xxx point to cheaper manufacturing processes (sheet-metal keyguards, two-tone finish, elimination of the 3-ring strap-hook, etc.). While it's not too much of a stretch to say that the Zephyrs between 272xxx and 305xxx aren't that different, it's a major stretch to say that these later horns are.

I still do think it possible to say that the difference between the Zephyr Special and these late Zephyrs is that the one was primarily hand made and one was primarily machine made. This is like comparing, say, a Yamaha 62 to an 875. However, I think it more probable that HN White/King needed to have a somewhat cheaper model for "the masses", so they broke out the Zephyr Special tooling and cranked out newer horns with it, possibly recycling old parts that were just lying around.

Errata:
* I've generally put the discontinued date of the Zephyr model around s/n 511xxx. It actually may be closer to s/n 426xxx, the time that King was purchased by the Seeburg company and moved to Eastlake, OH. If you have a Zephyr that was produced after 426xxx, I'd like to know about it!

* All research and empircal data points to the Zephyr bari being unchanged from the time it was introduced during the days of the Voll-True II. The only significant difference appears to be the elimination of the low Eb vent! See my ramblings in http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=666

Finally, if you've actually read all of this and want to dispute or add to it, please post here. I'll eventually get this up onto my own website!

[shimshon]

Another question: Are there any differences between pre and post consolidation Specials?

[mr00420]

Well, I'm one of those people that emailed, so you know I have a 323XXX Zephyr II alto (exactly like the 323XXX tenor you had pictured.) Mine has less lacquer, so I can tell you that there is NO sheetmetal or nickel work in the keys or guards of this horn. The key work and layout (as well as the shape and material of the guards) is the same as the S20s. The neck (minus the extra braces along the bottom) are the same as the early Zephyrs/ Specials, as is the engraving on the bell. The only thing that may be nickel on this horn are the pivot rods between the key and the pad cups. All the rest of it is brass. This is well after the introduction of the S20, but still before the mid-50s, which others have listed as the point where the Zephyers became intermediate horns. I agree, maybe alot of these late Zephyrs/ Specials and early Zephyr IIs were made with the left over body parts from perhaps Zephyrs/ Specials and new parts being made for the S20s.

[Pete]

shimshon, there is no difference in the Zephyr Specials, as far as I can tell.

mr00420, here's a couple post-272xxx examples:

A 281xxx Zephyr (http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/king/zephyr_ii/tenor/lacquer/281xxx/), with wire key guards. Take a look at a 1949 horn (appx. 290xxx) (http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/king/zephyr_ii/tenor/lacquer/1949_worldwidesax/), too.
A 319xxx Zephyr (http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/king/zephyr_ii/tenor/lacquer/319xxx_vs/), with sheet metal keyguards.

maybe alot of these late Zephyrs/Specials and early Zephyr IIs were made with the left over body parts from perhaps Zephyrs/ Specials and new parts being made for the S20s.

This may be the case for your horn.

Trying to accurately categorize the King horns is similar to categorizing the last Bueschers that were cobbled together: there were a dozen variations and all seem semi-pro or pro.

[Tharruff]

My father-inlaw bought a 242XXX Zephyr Tenor for me at a farm auction recently. I haven't seen it yet as they live several hours away but I am planning to go visit over Easter and pick it up. From what he says, it probably needs an overhaul but he only paid $ 110 for it so I hardly think that I can go wrong at that price.

I'll post again after I actually get this horn.

[mr00420]

Well the shape of mine is basically the same as the 319XXX you have pictured, but that one seems to have a lot of nickel work on the keys. Do you know what the left hand guard, under the body brace, is made of on the 281 and 290XXX? It looks like brass, and my left guard is of the same material. The other guards look to be made of the same.

[MMM]

THarruff,

you must have quite a few horns already: what do you need a Zeph tenor for? Me on the other hand....

MMM

[MMM]

Saxpics,

forgot to say that the neck from a '40s (264000) Zeph fits a mid 50's (339000) perfectly, not sure if its of any interest, but at least shows that the taper didn't change!

MMM

[Tharruff]

MMM

I'm ALWAYS kind of on the lookout to buy stuff that I think is at a reasonable price. I keep hoping that one of these days I can quit my job and open a woodwind kind of a shop. So I'm trying to build up my future vintage woodwind 'for sale' stash. The problem is that once I buy something...I usually don't want to sell it !!! I guess that if I want to open a shop and make money, I will have to break that mentality.

I have also bought some other horns besides this Zephyr since I corresponded with you some time ago...but no 'Oldsmobile' Saxophones.

[MMM]

Well Tom, if you want a partnership, I'll relocate from the UK!!! Seriously though anytime you want to share your latest list of horns, email away. I am currently going through a Martin Handcraft craze....

Cheers, MMM (ps, never found out any more about Olds-mobile!)

[shmuelyosef]

Regarding this tenor that saxpics posted; the neck does fit both a 265xxx Zephyr special and a 290xxx super 20, so the bodies were likely all tooled identically. All of the keywork is brass, except for the key rods, and this horn with original lacquer, has clear lacquer on the rods and very dark, reddish lacquer on the keys and body; definitely original as the cut edges of the engraving are very crisp in the lacquer through a magnifier (closet horn). This looks very cool if you strip the lacquer (as I did with a 291XXX alto that only had 10% lacquer remaining)

[Tharruff]

Despite all of my conversations with my father-in-law about the difference between an Alto and a Tenor Sax, and him assuring me that he had bought me a Tenor at the farm auction referred to above...when my wife and I got there to visit...he had a Zephyr Alto sitting there waiting for me.

It is a relacquer though the engraving was treated VERY gently.

The horn was apparently stored in a basement or some other area of HIGH humidity and the second coat of lacquer is SERIOUSLY speckled.

It does need an overhaul, though it was kind of...sort of...playable...a little.

It has the double socket neck and seems like a nice old horn that has not been treated as well as it could have been.

Another Alto to add to the stable...

[dingfelder]

I was told (one one of these boards http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=666 ) that when the altos and tenors changed to a more intermediate quality that the baris had remained more consistant.

any truth to this rumor ?

I can send you photos of a sn # 3799xx series bari if it would help.

[shmuelyosef]

Good pictures of a 365xxx bari here for comparison:

http://www.mindspring.com/~rondarosner/Saxophone/ZephBari358647/images/

[dingfelder]

here are some from my zephyr bari: sn 37997x

http://www.computingasyoulikeit.com/photos/saxophone/king_zephyr_bari/index.html

[shmuelyosef]

It seems pretty obvious that there are significant changes to the Zephyr bari between 365XXX and 379XXX:
- Bell to body brace is different
- Front F was added
- Keys are nickel (or nickel plate)
- Neck converted from couble socket to single socket

[Sax Hut]

The shift also brought a devolution back to a one-piece direct-action low C# key, something that in earlier production runs had advanced into a dual-action mechanism (with the low C# keywork mounted independently on the back of the bell/bow).

I've been told the conventional-socket Zephyrs (= late version, student-oriented?) actually sound better than their double-socket brethren. Any truth to that?

[shmuelyosef]

I had one of each until just recently...I preferred the two-piece C# mechanism, but didn't like the fact that the older one had no front F. I bought a better main bari, and had to choose one for backup; I chose the newer one with the Front F. I have to say, they both sounded and responded identically as far as I can tell. I had repadded them both several years ago with plastic domed Selmer style resos.

[frobig]

Saxpics, most of the features you mention pointing toward intermediate-quality are shared with the Super 20: sheet metal guards, loss of triple strap ring, and later on, loss of double socket. I'd bet the last two happened at close to the same time on the S20 and the Zephyr. I have a 343xxx Zephyr alto here in original lacquer, and the guards are all lacquer over brass, with nickel silver rods connecting brass touchpieces and pad cups. This was a feature of the S20, too. The keywork looks identical to the very earliest S20s. Can't speculate about the neck, because I don't have it (of course I know it's nothing like a S20), but the horn seems about 80% identical to a Super 20 of the first generation. If anything, I think the sheet metal guards were meant as a step upscale--they're very pretty, anyway, and a lot easier to remove for bodywork than soldered-on wires, which is one reason almost all horns of the last 30 years have had them. I've got to wonder how they could have handmade the Super 20, and machine-made the Zephyr to almost the same spec, and I have to say I doubt they did. I'd like to see a price list from the early 50's to see how far apart the two models were. I bet they differed by about the price of a sterling underslung neck, modernized keywork, and two engraved pad cups. Plus dealer markup of course. One thing that's very interesting to me: my Zephyr has regulation screws for the Bb-to-F# and G#-to-F# regulations, which the Eastlake Super 20's I've seen don't have. One more speculation on the dark color of the lacquer: I don't think the lacquer has any color at all. There's no way they would have lacquered the hinges and pad cups of the same keys with two different lacquers, but it's known that the ceramic lacquer used by King tends to shatter, letting air reach the metal underneath and oxidize it. Brass will tarnish under this finish, but nickel silver doesn't look much different.
Now if the Super 20 lost money on every unit sold, and the Zephyr was built almost the same and sold for less, that goes a long way toward explaining how King became ripe for the decline that brought it to where it is today.

[sw3119]

Now, I can categorize the Zephyr into a couple of different series, or phases:


* Horns post 240xxx or so: the addition of the double-socket neck




Curious.

I have seen this before and wanted to question.

I have three Zephyrs.
a tenor 216xxx
alto 198xxx
another alto 188xxx

all of these horns have the double socket neck and the three ring strap clip.
They all (I think) have the exact same engraving and key work.

I've seen other articles that put the double socket neck at different
serial numbers.

[shmuelyosef]

I have owned a number of Zephyrs...I currently have an two altos (292XXX) one with a double socket neck and triple ring strap...one with a double neck modhfied to a single (they play identically), a tenor (281XXX) with a sterling silver double socket neck and triple ring. I also had baris ~350K with double socket neck and no front F and 365K with single socket and Front F. I no longer have the baris, but I generally preferred the later one (might have been the difference in setup).

There was a major keywork update around S/N 250XXX that rounded the L&R spatulas and changed the engraving. Around 275K the wire leg guard was changed to the removable triangular guard from the Specials and S20. From 275K till about 305K the Zephyrs (IMHO) are the same horn as the S20 except for the keyguards (wire vs. SM), the neck brace and octave key, and the cosmetics (pearls and key engraving). I have determined that the necks are interchangable and play well back and forth and all the keywork is identical as far as I can tell. I have played a 278K S20 vs. my 281K zephyr w/silver neck and both I, several spectators and the owner of the S20 could not hear or feel a difference...needless to say, he paid more for his horn; we both acquired these within the past two years.

[shmuelyosef]

got the #s on the bari wrong...they are 365K (no F) and 379K (with F)...sorry

[shmuelyosef]

Here is a 176K Zephyr with a single socket neck...pretty nice-looking Anderson plated horn.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2571222138&category=16 234

[sw3119]

http://www.clarinet-repair.com/king.html

here are some great pics of a king Zephyr throughout the entire
refinishing process.

By the way, on the topic of to refinish or not to refinish.
people always say that you should not get an old horn refinished
if you like the way it sounds.
My question is this, I have a Zephyr tenor with almost no lacquer
left on the horn. If I were to get the horn plated instead of
re lacquered would that change the sound as well, or as much as
lacquer?

[ProfessorZeek]

saxpics,

i think the introduction of the double socket actually came earlier, as gayle has a horn on her site with 216xxx with a double socket neck.

i believe you had the introduction much later. i would assume this horn would not be a glorified voll true, or whatever it's called. can you confirm?

just FYI.

[morgan]

...There was a major keywork update around S/N 250XXX that rounded the L&R spatulas ....

I have a 237k tenor with rounded spatulas (these are the pinky keys we're talking about, right?)

Actually the LH pinkys are still pretty square, but the RH pinky and chromatic F# are rounded; and the older features --G# trill and fork Eb -- are gone

[Pete]

I'm planning a major website update, so I decided to revisit this topic specifically (y'all keep sending me e-mails). I wanted your input on a couple of things.

First, regarding the "military models":
There were quite a few Zephyrs labeled "US" or "USN" or some variation thereof and these are dubbed "military models". They don't seem to follow any "standard", but here's some generalizations:

* Most have G# trill keys and Eb vent keys, up until about s/n 260xxx. This makes military horns look definitely different than other Zephyrs.
* The G# design is the more squared-off version that's found on the early Zephyrs, although the other keys in the G# cluster may be rounded (this was discontinued around 272xxx, I think).
* The engraving is different, sometimes not even having "Zephyr" engraved at all.
* Production of "military" horns continued at least until 320xxx.
* There is the possibility that IF the Zephyr Special does have a different bore that the military horns used it.

As mentioned, I now believe that there was some bore difference between the Zephyr and Zephyr Special.
That means that the bore of the horn was quite probably changed at least a bit at this time.

At approximately s/n 200xxx, the Zephyr Special was introduced: a horn with redesigned keywork (more rounded), additional mother-of-pearl inlay and probably a tweaked bore design. There are tons of reports that the Zephyr Special bore is the exact same one as the Super 20, HOWEVER, I've also had folks note that the bell on the ZS is much slimmer and, of course, the neck design is completely different. This tends to indicate that there are some bore differences between the S20 and ZS -- and Dr. Cohen writes that there are. However, I've never heard anyone report that the ZS bore is different from the regular Z bore and I think they were.

Here's some fun for y'all: measure the bore of the Zephyr Special and compare it with the Zephyr produced between 240xxx and 305xxx and the Super 20. If all the measurements are identical, which I doubt, buy a Zephyr instead of an S20 or ZS. You'll save a lot of bucks, if you're not interested in the fancy pearls or engraving. (Do note that I've seen at least one Zephyr done-up with the additional pearl inlay, but no "Special" engraving and some Zephyrs appeared in odd "high end" configurations, such as with sterling silver necks and/or bells, so that may furrther support the assertion that there were two Zephyr bores.)

The final oddment is that the Zephyr Special was around until probably s/n 280xxx -- my latest examples are in the 276xxx range -- and that's during the first years of Super 20 production.

And the final real oddment:
It seems probable that production of the Zephyr was paused around s/n 380xxx and resumed after the Seeburg buyout -- around s/n 420xxx.

This last bit is really puzzling. It's very odd that I haven't been able to find Zephyrs produced during that serial number range.

I also maintain:
Tying this all together, the best Zephyrs are Zephyr Specials and the horns produced between 240xxx and 305xxx that have the rounded keywork, double-socket neck and three-ring-straphook. I've seen some outrageously priced very, very early Zephyrs. These horns have very similar intonation tendencies to the Voll True II (i.e. not good) and should be valued slightly more than that model. I can also assume that the horns produced after 383xxx should be considered intermediate quality horns and valued as such, due to all the changes from the "pro" model Zephyr. However, it also seems likely that the Zephyrs produced between 305xxx and the time that the double-socket neck was discontinued (about 383xxx) have the same bore as the "good" Zephyrs, but may be more machine-made, lack some features and/or have a slightly different body composition.

I also break down the "eras of Zephyr" as such:
1. Horns produced between about 170xxx to 180xx were virtually identical to the Voll True II.
2. Horns produced between about 180xxx and 237xxx have the 3-ring straphook and the double-socket neck.
3. Horns produced between about 237xxx and 305xxx have the rounded keywork found on the Zephyr Special.
4. Horns produced between about 305xxx and 423xxx have one major subtraction: the three-ring straphook. They gain "eyebrow" keyguards and the double-socket neck is probably eliminated around 383xxx.
5. Horns produced between about 423xxx and 540xxx have redesigned keywork and no double-socket neck.

So, please continue to comment here or send me an e-mail. I'm reading the stuff here before "publishing". Thanks a bunch!

[shmuelyosef]

I have a number of Zephyrs and agree with all the stuff I can verify about the 240K to 305K altos and tenors. As I reported above, I did do one verification that the silver neck on my non-Special tenor (281K) swapped with a 278K S20 that a local guy had...as far as we could tell these horns were identical bore and tonehole layout.
The bore on that tenor is 1.083" I.D. at the neck socket.
A similar vintage alto (291K with triple strap, etc) is 0.954" I.D. at the neck socket.
The bell sizes (which I record for most horns that pass through here) are:
292K alto: 4.92"
281K tenor: 6.16
365K bari: 7.69 (the largest bari bell I have ever measured!)

Also, I don't know if you are going to update the baris, but the front F was added sometime between 365K and 379K. Sarge at WWSax has suggested at his site that there were no changes to the bari, but these horns had some small differences (wish I still had them).

[Docax]

I may be misreading or misunderstanding, but if you (saxpics) have never seen a Zephyr between sn#380xxx and 420xxx, I have a 406xxx Zeph, and have seen 2 others right around that serial# range. They definately didn't stop production then.

...and that's one of the very few things on your outstanding site I disagree with - the drop in quality of the post 380xxx zephs. Mine and other's on this board (Swapsax ,I think?) from the early 60's are amazing players, equal or better than earlier ones and even some s20's in my experience.

[paulwl]

Nice to see some first class saxgeeking going on! It warms the heart of this old hornspotter...especially in regards to a marque I hadn't gotten to yet. Awaiting a bigger and better saxpics.com.

[Pete]

Thanks, Paul. I'm a-workin' on it. I'm sending two CD's of pictures on Saturday to Mark, my website provider, to have him post the update. If I did it over dial-up it'd take weeks.

Not only did I collect a bunch more pictures, I also corrected the file names on a bunch, so you can actually see some. The Windows webserver didn't like spaces in filenames and some other characters ...

=======

Docax, I actually was wondering if King didn't stop production of the Zephyr for a bit. Does your horn have all round keys on the G# cluster or are they like the ones on this horn (http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/king/zephyr_ii/alto/2_tone/466xxx.jpg)? (If the link's down, the update's probably been published.)

=======

shmuelyosef, so the bore is the same on the Zephyr, Zephyr Special and S20? Hmm.

I will post your info on the baris. I had kept it general, as in the pre-publishing sample I gave above (i.e., when the alto/tenor gained a ds-neck, so did the bari, etc.), but I can definitely do more specific.

=======

I forgot to mention: if you want to send me more pics of your horns, please send to saxpics@x-mail.net. I've got about 10mb of space for files there. (The replated ones that y'all have sent are really nice.)

[shmuelyosef]

Don't read to much in my post...I specifically compared:

281K Zephyr (not Special) with original sterling neck (no SN but dark lacquer matches exactly and it has the double bow brace consistent with the vintage

WITH

278K S20 with full pearls and sterling neck.

these horns were virtually identical bodytube and keywork in every way we could tell (although S20 had different/more engraving, pearled touches, SM keyguards and underslung octave with different brace). I did not have a Special or a similar vintage non-silver-neck Zeph available...just an older one (pre-240K) that was different.

[Docax]

Saxpics: My 406k does not have round ed G# cluster, if anything it seems even more squared off than the one in the link. Out of curiosity what does this mean? (This level of detail is amazing)

...and reading this thread and pulling my Zeph out from under my Conn sop to examine the G#, gave me a (hopefully) temporary King craving, so I played it today with a jazz combo that gigs (very) sporadically. Yep, still amazing. (As good as it is, the Zeph became a backup to my Nickel-silver JK, so this is the first time in a year)

[shmuelyosef]

Pete,
You have a Zephyr alto listed on your site as 410K.
http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/king/zephyr_ii/alto/lacquer/410xxx_sa/
It appears to be one of the early Voll-true derived horns, however, more like a 210K. If it heally was labelled 410K, this might explain this last post. Perhaps a bunch of old parts were discovered at the Seeburg buyout, and they went ahead and assembled some early Zephyrs...???

[shmuelyosef]

...having a conversation with myself here...there is a 400K Zephyr tenor on eBay right now, RIGHT HERE (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2370905032&category=16 234) and the tables ARE different than anything that I have seen...angled corners unlike anything I have seen previously.
DOCAX:
Does your 406K look like this??
http://sjrosner.home.mindspring.com/400KZephyr/tables.jpg

[mr00420]

Saxpics, I have a Zephyr 323xxx Alto, and it does have rounded keys on both the left and right hand pink-clusters. During a recnt discussion w/ a very experienced and well respected sax-tech we both agreed on the similarity of these King horns and this horn was a "no frills" Super 20.

[Docax]

In regards to above post - yes, my tables look almost exactly like that (or exactly exactly, difficult to tell from the pic).

[shmuelyosef]

Saxpics, I have a Zephyr 323xxx Alto, and it does have rounded keys on both the left and right hand pink-clusters. During a recnt discussion w/ a very experienced and well respected sax-tech we both agreed on the similarity of these King horns and this horn was a "no frills" Super 20.

By 323XXX, S20s had a more Selmer like table (but no hinging Bb), quite different from the Zephyr, which was more like the pre-305K S20.

[mr00420]

Yes, this is true. I've seen this modification on the Super 20's but play wise, it makes no difference. The hinge works just as smoothly and soundly as the "table" (kind of looks like a tuning fork shape) joint. I've noticed no benefit in the change, but I suppose it is an evolution in the King line. Besides this hinge the key work is the same as is the sound... it made not be exactly a 323xxx S20, but it is I believe a "no frills" S20, and I find the hinge to be a "frill."

I wonder if there are any other Zephyrs from this period that do have a "table" like joint for the Bb. If there are it might add more fodder to the hypothesis that these later Zephyrs where put together w/ unused parts from older model Zephyrs and newer S20s.

[Pete]

It's posted.

I finished my website update last night. 689 new horns. New index page. New Zephyr page.

Check out the Zephyr page at www.saxpics.com/king/zephyr.htm

Please comment. Thanks!

[shmuelyosef]

Well done...this is a great service to the saxophone community and you should be applauded for your efforts!!!

[Dr G]

All this talk of Zephyr's keeps me on the lookout even when I'm not looking for a horn! :lol: Since we don't see them all that often, I thought I'd share an interesting one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3708665267

I have no relation to the seller and know nothing about this particular horn beyond what you and I can both read.

Let us know if it goes to a forum member! :wink:

[chipmorrison]

I may have an opportunity to buy a tenor Zephyr #196XXX which I have been told was made in 1937. It's had only two owners, original lacquer in good shape, and has had complete overhaul by excellent tech. (Curiously, it has the three-ring neck strap holder and the double socket, which I thought was introduced later.)

I currently play a pre-Chu Conn tenor. I've compared the two horns. The Conn seems to have a bigger bottom end, the Zephyr is more solid and sweeter on the upper end. Unfortunately the Conn has a lot of miles on it and needs to visit the shop pretty often. The Zephyr, on the other hand, is rock solid.

I notice the serial number of the Zephyr puts it well before the preferred range. Any suggestions about the real-world value of this horn? How would it compare with the later models?

[morgan]

Reasonable price might be $1300 from a dealer and $800 private sale?

It'd be fun to have both a Chu and a Zeph because they are so wildly different.

[nick1]

My tenor is 198***. It plays well. It has a 3 pr brace and a double socket neck. regards Nick

[shmuelyosef]

For a number of years I had both a Zeph (281XXX w/sterling double socket neck) and a Conn New Wonder (86XXX) tenor. The Conn was indeed, a much more delicate horn (although much lighter to hang on one's neck) to keep in perfect trim. I did love the fat sound of the Conn for big band work, but the Zeph was incredibly reliable and much more versatile, covering all my needs. I no longer have the Conn, although the new owner loves it. I still have the Zeph as backup and for hardcore Rok'n'Rol, although I play a Keilwerth as my main tenor. The Zeph continues to require NO attention ever to keep in perfect playing trim!! It is the most reliable horn I have ever known. I prefer it to the Super 20s that I have owned...bigger sound, more reliable, better intonation. I have an alto Zephyr of the same type and vintage.

[shmuelyosef]

There are some really nice Zephyrs on eBay right now, including several altos and tenors from 1938-1946 (IMHO, the best ones)

[chipmorrison]

I ended up buying the '38 Zephyr. Made it easier when I decided I was going to keep the Conn, at least for the time being. Thanks to everyone who helped with information.

I'm wondering, those of you still playing a Zephyr, what sort of set-up do you use? With the Conn, I've been using a stainless steel Wolf Tane #7 with #3 Van Doren ZZ reeds and I'm thinking of just staying with that. Any thoughts?

[shmuelyosef]

The Zeph is already a pretty bright, focused horn...you will have trouble getting a big bottom end with it. I found that Zephyrs and Super 20s do much better (overall balance) with larger chambers, particularly ones with concave sidewalls (like links, Lambersons, some Barones, Meyers, etc)...I get a huge bottom with my Lamberson.

[morgan]

Using a MC Gregory Model 'A' with Zeph. Of course I use that mpc with everything...

Zeph is realllly bright. I was startled when I heard the recordings of it. But my guitar player likes it that way... okay.

[shmuelyosef]

Zephs do record VERY bright, particularly if close-miked with a cardioid condenser. I find if I record back about 0.5 meter from a dynamic (trusty SM-57) I get a fatter, more satisfying sound that is closer to what I hear when playing. But in a live setting with electric guitars, a clip-on condenser (I use AT Pro35) can provide a very bright, almost piercing sound that lets me go head-to-head with a Marshall stack!! My Keilwerth can never compete in quite the same way...

[mr00420]

Never had my Zephyr be referred to as bright. When using a PA I usually turn up the bass and mid., and turn down the treble anyway. I think large chamber is the way w/ MPCS: Morgan Excalibur 6 E (EL was too big for the way I play) and a Francois Louis lig. I also use relatively soft reeds 2 1/2 or 3 (alexander DC and standard La Voz seem to work best for me, though I have several others I practice and experiment with.) I like those SR Tech metal mpcs too, and am planning to buy one in the near future.

[shmuelyosef]

Check this out...a late 40's Zephyr with all nickel keywork...I have never seen such a thing!! Looks original.

[shmuelyosef]

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