Picked this up today. Kohlert???

[spiderjames]

Not sure what this is. I'm posting this in the Kohlert section because I know the neck at least is kohlert.

Bought this from a guy in Germany via Ebay. I picked it up today at the post office. It is obviously of German/Czech origin but I'm not sure what. No origin or serial # that I can find. The neck is Kohlert but may not be original. It has tarnished significantly different from the rest of the horn. The body has some cool details. Very angular keywork like Huller or Amati. nifty looking palm keys. LH cluster 10M ish. Rolled tone holes. Trill keys. Anyone wager a guess. Early Kohlert, Adler, What???

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8104/incasejo8.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=incasejo8.jpg)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9662/outofcasefrontsq6.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outofcasefrontsq6.jpg)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1703/backav2.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=backav2.jpg)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3760/backstrapoctaveareadp0.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=backstrapoctaveareadp0.jpg)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8273/upperstackwa2.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=upperstackwa2.jpg)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6272/palmkeysgk1.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmkeysgk1.jpg)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1408/outofcasefrontbellareani5.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outofcasefrontbellareani5.jpg)

[TommyD69]

Spider, It's hard to say from those pics, my first impression is a Conn, but I know the German/Czech sax makers way back when liked to copy Conns designs. Is there ANY engraving on this sax? There are no serial numbers near the thumb rest? How about some more pics of the left pinky keys... The neck looks like a Kohlert "man in the moon", but the mirco tuner doesn't seem right for a Kohlert. Also, there is something familiar with the octave key "button", but I can't remember........

[SearjeantSax]

it's clearly not a Conn, RH bell keys and a wire key guard, it could be a Keilwerth? also, it could be German, not necessarily Check, as a matter of fact, i think that it being german could be quite likely

[Sax Hut]

Looks like an early Amati/JK Tone King. Not a Kohlert, though I think early Kohlerts also had a microtuner version. The D# trill side-key is a Tone King trait, though I've seen it on other makes/models too.

Very nice horn, I bet it will be a sweetie once you've done your thing with it.

[TommyD69]

Based on what I found on www.saxpics.com I believe that this sax is a Keilwerth - Modell 3 ("King"), don't know what year, but pre-WWII. But the neck is still a mystery, as the neck in saxpics does not look like yours ("man in the moon neck" i.e. Kohlert), but does have the micro tuner like yours.
A pretty cool sax, and fun research..... ENJOY!!!

[spiderjames]

Here's so more pics show a few of the design features.

First the side keys have an unusaul sidestep patern to them and are concave shaped when viewed from the side.
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9697/sidekeysien0.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sidekeysien0.jpg)

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9315/sidekeysiiql7.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sidekeysiiql7.jpg)

The LH cluster is very Conn ish. with the Wolfram logo on it
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/4700/lhclusterrf0.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lhclusterrf0.jpg)

The unusual palm keys. Very cool I think
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/248/palmkeysgy3.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmkeysgy3.jpg)

The octave detail. The pearl buttons are like many early horns; Kohlert, Keilwerth, Dolnet, and even Buescher. Looks similar to other German/Czech horns but not exacly like any one.
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/1968/octavedetailjf1.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=octavedetailjf1.jpg)

RH C/Eb cluster
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/226/rhclusterzf5.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rhclusterzf5.jpg)

In this shot you see the G# bridge. Also you can see some of the sharp angular shape of the keywork. Similar to Huller or Amati.
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/1307/bridgeiv9.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bridgeiv9.jpg)

The logo is "Migma Siegfried Wolfram" No serial #. When I get around to polishing it and repairing the neck socket I will be able to better judge if the neck is original or not. If it is then it's a Kohlert. Beyond that it's anybody's guess.

[riosax]

Found this on ebay Germany

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110199145457&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001

its a bari from F. Köhlert with "Migma" engraved on it.

Riosax

[spiderjames]

That looks like the bari version of the same horn. The engraving says F.Kohler, not Kohlert. Kohler was a separate company from Markneukirchen, according to saxpics. So my horn must be a Kohler then, not a Kohlert?