Holton Playing Tendencies

[geauxsax]

Looking to get a more comprehensive list on Holton Sax playing tendencies. There is much scattered info around concerning how these horns play, both positive and negative--some first hand, other info maybe not. . .
Also and unfortunately, the info seems to be much more contradictory than that of other makes, hence my post.

Looking for first hand info to either confirm or dispel what's been said over the years.


Specifically (and in comparison to other period horns as much as possible):

*Did the horn play in tune? If not, where was/is the problem (low register, upper register)?

*Did the tone tend to be bright or dark? Any other tone info of note?

*How was/is the keywork compared to other contemporary sax makes?

*How was/is construction quality overall?


With this info, also need to know which model you're describing, as well as your general judgement of the horn's state of repair, and your set up.


Mine was unplayable when bought and getting an overhaul currently, so I have no first hand playing knowledge yet.

[soybean]

good idea, Brent. From what i can see online, the general impression most people have of Holton saxes is not good. But, it seems Holton's saxophones varied in quality depending on era, etc. Some people have said their Holtons played perfectly in tune and with a big sound. I'll review mine when it arrives.

By the way, Frankie Trumbauer played a Holton.

[ianhart]

1917 Holton Elkhorn Bari, Nickel Plated


The bari that I am playing could definitely use a repad (REALLY old pads...), but the sound is HUGE.

Big, vintage american sound.

With a modern C* it plays very well in tune, the piece just has to be pulled out quite a bit.

Build quality overall is great, except for the design of the octave key. I can't get any pictures of it, but it is a HORRIBLE design. The key sticks out over the tenon, covering the pip built onto the side of the neck. Because of the this, the neck can NOT be moved into a more comfortable position.

Keywork quality is pretty good, considering it's age. Also, it has a HUGE bell rim. Can make it hard to find a case for the thing.

[hgrail]

I had a '50s Holton "241" tenor back in college and had it repadded. I had a huge sound (and I used it for marching band also - no problems there). It actually sounded really good though. Keywork was on par with Conn of the same period - not great, but doable.
It was a sturdy horn too-

[crescent]

There are so many kinds of Holton horns. It makes it hard to get a clear picture of what they are and how they play.

I have experience with two: a very early Rudy Weidoff alto and a much later (but still vintage) Collegiate tenor. Both played very well for me with good tone and great action. This was a real surprise as Holtons have no respect in the vintage sax world.

Be careful when buying a Weidoff as they have extra keys that are impossible to replace if one is lost. The horn should play as is. They are very hard to regulate so you need to more careful than usual. Otherwise a great playing vintage alto -- great bebop tone, fast response and good key action. Look for a gold one if you can.

The Collegiate looks a bit like a Buescher but the LH pinky table is actaully pretty unique and works well -- a good G# setup that is nice and playable. Not as big sounding as a 10M but still a good jazz sound.

Everyone always asks about pitch. But I think every horn plays a bit odd in its own way. You have experiment with mouthpieces and reeds and ultimately compensate for bad notes by lipping up or down. That's life.

I'm hoping other will have some info on Holtons.

[frasermanx]

I just overhauled a Holton tenor 241. I was sceptical about the amount of time I was putting into the job but the results were good. Yes good intonation and big sound. I had to work at the mechanism alot to quiet it but the owner is happy

..old horns are the best
Frz

[geauxsax]

Terrific input--just what I'm looking for--keep it coming!

[blackfrancis]

Mid-20s soprano, silver finish. It plays a bit flat on high C and C#, but one can easily compensate. The tone is medium- dark, as it has no resonators on the pads. Fairly mouthpiece-friendly, even to a high baffle piece, but a Link Tone Edge really hits the sweet spot. Keywork is pretty good, or maybe I'm just used to it. I don't get hung up on the "ergonomics" issue unless it's really bad. I've done a back-to-back with a Mk. VI and I think I like the Holton better. It played in tune better than the Selmer for sure. As to build quality, I've had this horn for over 35 years and it has never let me down- no repairs in all that time and it still plays great! Best $100 I ever spent!

[hafuch]

I own a Holton 243 silver-plated tenor from about 1955 (SN 277xxx) and have nothing but praise for them. (Pictures and other info here: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=48586&page=2). It seems Holton made its own horns, as this one is not a Martin stencil, as others have suggested some Holton horns to be.

Bear in mind that I cannot vouch for other Holton models such as the Collegiate or anything from the 20s-40s, as I have no experience with them (save for a Holton soprano from the 1920s, which I find decent, though not as good as the 1955 tenor described in this post. My experience with the soprano is similar to that of Blackfrancis described above).

To answer your questions:

1) Intonation: Excellent. Spot on. Period. Surprising perhaps to those who diss or are ignorant of Holtons, but it's a fact. No issues - at least for this horn. Altissimo A may play a tiny bit flat depending on fingering, but this is nothing unusual at all and is common to most horns.

2) Tone: Classic American-style tone: BIG and VERY flexible. Did I say BIG? For perspective, we're talking Conn 10M BIG, though with a bit of that sultry darkness of The Martin Tenors mixed in (Yup, that's right!). (My guess is that Holton copied the Conn 10M body tube, and that the thick, heavy brass gives the tone some of that Martin color). I've used this horn for everything from sultry ballads (dark and warm) to mainstream bebop (vintage sound, especially with an Otto Link) to funk and pop (good with a higher-baffle mouthpiece). You name it, it will do it ... and will surpass your expectations. Head to head with a Selmer SBA, they were indistinguishable in tone quality ... seriously. The friend whose SBA I compared it to was present when I test-played the Holton. He said flat out: "If you don't buy it, I will."

3) Keywork/Ergonomics: Modern and comfortable - without that bizarre, esoteric keywork of earlier models - and surprisingly quick, smooth and snappy. None of that clunky feel that sometimes plagues vintage horns (though this is largely a question of setup and regulation, I think). It plays straight out in front, and the L and R hand stacks are straight up and down (like Conns, Bueschers, Martins, SMLs) rather than angled to the side (like Selmers and their clones). Some prefer this (like me) while others do not. I will say that it is exceptionally ergonomic and comfortable, and in this way resembles Bueschers and differs from Conns, which some (such as myself) find initially awkward until they adapt to them. Ergonomically speaking, you sort of fall right into Holtons of this era. Easy peasy! Nice and comfy!

4) Construction: Top notch. Thick, soldered-on tone holes (which provides the benefit of rolled tone holes) like on Martins (though NOT beveled, as with Martins), solid body (the body tube seems very similar to the Conn 10M in shape, but the body tube is made of noticeably thicker brass), and overall well made. Thicker brass than Bueschers and Conns, and in this way more resembles The Martin tenors.

To sum up, it seems Holton made its last-ditch effort to compete with Selmer, Buescher and Conn in the sax market before they abandoned it as Selmer cornered the market toward the late 50s and into the 60s. Holton seems to have copied enough of the good elements of the contemporary models (Conn 10Ms, The Martin Tenors, and Bueschers) as Holtons of this model and era are a fine blend of the Conn 10M (tone, body tube), "The Martin Tenor" (tone, brass thickness, soldered-on tone holes), and Bueschers (ergonomics and key layout). I've never regretted playing it, and have compared it to the very best and NOT found it wanting. I couldn't tell you if this is characteristic of all Holtons from this era because I simply haven't played enough of them. I did try a Holton 241 model once and was not impressed, but then again, it could have been a lemon horn that I tried. What I can tell you is that with this tenor (or model No. 243), they got it REALLY right. I'll never let it go. Period.

I hope this helps.

Hafuch

[bbbouklas]

I have a 232 plated alto ,a rudy wiedoeft silver plated alto, and a pre-rudy goldplated tenor..
the 232 is just amazing, way ahead in design from the other american saxes of the same era (has right side bell keys!) ergos are also very good and intonation good with the right mpc (best with a morgan jazz M model)
the older ones have surely more issues, ergos aren't that nice and intonation is a bit trickier but still GREAT horns ..

[Mope]

My 1940 Colegiate Tenor has all original pads without resonators. It has a a nice warm dark tone when played softly and when pushed it wails with bluesy Websteresque overtones. It plays very well in tune and has indented pearls that feel comfortable for the fingers. The palm and pinky keys take some getting used to. I like it's common sense economical design.

[Kobra Killer]

I agree with HAFUCH's observations. I just repaded a Holton 241 tenor and so far it plays very nice (I used Selmer Mk VI pads with plastic resonators). It has a dark solid tone (with a Selmer C*). With an Otto Link 5 it is a bit harder sounding with more projection.

I've worked on Conn Pan Americans, Bundys and Vitos and find the Holton to be better than any of them. Adjusting the keywork is tricky but once everything seals properly it stays that way. The action is light and very quick.

It sounds great & my son says it beats the H%&$ out of his old Bundy II.

[bruce bailey]

I have a Gold plated 20s alto with new pads (metal res.) that feels as good as my Martins, has a tone similar to my NW Conns and the intonation is very good. A little flat on high F but as good or better than most 20s horns. I also have a Rudy alto that I haven't gotten to yet. More later.

[David Spiegelthal]

I just finished restoring an early-mid 1920s (as best I can tell) Holton Rudy Wiedoeft alto, silver-plated. I was not expecting it to be a very good player, so I was surprised that it was! Probably has the nicest sound of all my altos (seven in total, all fully restored, two of which are fabulous silver-plated Kings from the 1920s). The sound is noticeably warmer and richer than my other horns, but not overly bright, and fairly big too. The keywork is also more comfortable than I was expecting --- granted, this is all relative -- I'm used to playing vintage horns so by vintage standards the Holton is comfortable -- to anyone used to modern instruments it would probably feel awkward, at least for a while. And, the instrument is beautifully made (like the old Kings) with very heavy metal, thick silver plating, and soldered-on toneholes.

The only downside of the Holton "Rudy" which keeps it from being my #1 alto is the intonation between registers -- generally the lower octave is flat and the upper is sharp, especially on the "A' which admittedly is the worst note on just about any brand, vintage or modern. Compared to my Kings, the Holton has a bigger spread between octaves (regardless of mouthpiece selection, and I've tried quite a variety on the horn). That said, I believe with time I could adjust to it and compensate -- it's not THAT awful. I've made various adjustments to key opening heights and such to get the intonation squared away in other respects.

I have two other silver-plated 1920s Wiedoeft altos and one regular Holton from the same era all 'on the shelf' awaiting restoration, so someday (probably not any time soon, though!) I may have additional data points for this discussion.

[soybean]

Very interesting Dave. My Holton C-mel is from about 1926 and it's intonation is superior to the same era Buescher and King. Great altissimo too.

[DanCraven]

My 30's soprano has similar intonation issues as mentioned above. Low register is quite well in tune, and the upper register is pretty sharp, requiring careful attention to bring it down. Sharpness is inconsistent, and varies note by note, so it took a while to get familiar with the horn. That being said, it's not too hard to play in tune now that I know the horn.

The horn has poor ergonomics, which is the main reason I don't consider it to be a "real" playable horn by modern standards. The pearls are very small, close together, and spring tension varies drastically all over the place, making it difficult to play smoothly. But I don't do any serious soprano playing, so nobody suffers but me. And the good far outweighs the bad.

The horn has a gorgeous dark sound that I love, which is the main reason I continue to play it. I use a short barrel D Soloist, round chamber that clicks really well with it. Add in how beautiful the horn looks (dark gold lacquer, not plated I think, lots intact), and an emotional attachment to it through the gentleman who owned it previously, it really is a keeper.

Still on the lookout for the right 62r though!

[geauxsax]

Well, I just got my Holton "Elkhorn" Tenor back from a full overhaul. Some observations--bear with me though, I'm still getting my chops back as a returning player after many years away from sax.

I took the tenor to Les Arbuckle at Saxoasis and am very pleased with the results--thanks Les!!!:)

--The keywork feels light and precise, and the new pads have resonators. It was pretty clunky when I took it in, being an unplayable ebay special when I got it, but Les fixed all that. The springs all feel uniform, and the action is quick, quiet, and smooth.

--The sound, as mentioned in a couple of the previous posts above concerning Holtons, is BIG, warm, and rich. I normally play with a fairly bright tone, but the Holton is not overly bright. Bottom line--I like this horn's sound a lot.

--Construction: This horn seems to me to be built like a tank. Thick and heavily made. In an earlier post, I said I thought it may have had an oversize bell (relying on memory while it was in the shop), but no--the bell is the same size as my King 615.

--As far as comfort, the Holton feels great to me. For reference, my hands are small though. Even with the pearl button G sharp, the pinky cluster works better for me than the King 615 I've been playing. I may put and extender on the palm High F though--it's a bit lower than I'm used to.

Some other thoughts: I kind of wish I'd have kept an eye out for a horn with a high front F. Many of the Holtons of the same age range, and even 10K earlier on the serial number range have the spatula high front F. The ones with the spatula front F also usually seem to have a larger G sharp key on the LH pinky cluster (much like the difference between earlier and later Buescher True Tones). Oh well.

I'm using a new Otto Link HR 6* with the lig that came with it, and I also have a Rico Graftonite A-5 and a Rovner Dark to try. My main thought was to use something with a large chamber.

This tenor is serial number 39XXX, which more realistically works out to about 1928 (remember that published Holton lists are incorrect).

[geauxsax]

Some pics of the Big H:

[blackfrancis]

Congrats- so nice! (drool)

[soybean]

I'm very impressed with the one Holton (non-Rudy) i own. Estimated age is 1926-27. My feeling is, Holton was like Avis rent-a-car; they had to try harder. They were seriously trying to improve the saxophone in practical ways. Their new keywork and better intonation (mid 1920s on) really worked. They are the only company I have seen that moved the strap ring on their C-melody saxophones to a better position. Their saxes came standard with metal mouthpieces before anyone. Even their cases (1920s) were better than most of their competitors. So in many ways, they were trying to make a better horn. It would be fun to have a time machine and go back to 1929 to interview professional players about the Holton sax. Those guys may have had a lot of respect for what Frank Holton was doing.

[geauxsax]

I'm very impressed with the one Holton (non-Rudy) i own. Estimated age is 1926-27. My feeling is, Holton was like Avis rent-a-car; they had to try harder. They were seriously trying to improve the saxophone in practical ways. Their new keywork and better intonation (mid 1920s on) really worked. They are the only company I have seen that moved the strap ring on their C-melody saxophones to a better position. Their saxes came standard with metal mouthpieces before anyone. So in many ways, they were trying to make a better horn. It would be fun to have a time machine and go back to 1929 to interview professional players about the Holton sax. Those guys may have had a lot of respect for what Frank Holton was doing.

I noted the picture of Charlie Parker playing a Holton in another recent thread about all the different horns he played.;)

[saxdawg]

I have a 1953 Holton Collegiate tenor. I use it more than my other pro vintage horns. Although the Collegiate models were student horns they do have a nice sound and I like the key layout. There is very little demand for them therefore they are not worth much. The only problem I see with the horn is the
g# key. It is very long and a tad wobbley. I,m used to it so it doesn't impact my playing one way or the other. The tech I take it to says the Holtons are good horns and well made.

[apolaine]

I was in the market for a Conn and had been researching them studiously. Played a couple here in Germany at Bruno Waltersbacher's and loved a Chu with modified ergos, but didn't have the cash at the time.

I went back in the last month and played a massive range of vintage and modern horns - Leo Bundy Conn stencil, Hamilton, New King, Selmer, Keilwerth SX90R, etc.

In the end I bought a lovely '38 (I think - serial is 124xxx) Holton 'Elkhorn'. It won the tone contest hands-down (although there were no playable Conns to directly compare to at the time - I'm going on my memory of the Chu). It's been completely overhauled, so it might be hard to compare to others.

Intonation is great (I've only played it a little so far, but so far so good). The tone is warm, but also pretty versatile. I want to try a few different MPCs on it to see what happens. I can get a really warm deep, breathy jazz sound but belt out some power too. Free blowing and no stuffy D like that Keilwerth either!

Build quality is great - it's heavy horn and the keywork is very solid.

Pretty sure the keys are nickel plated and they compare in arrangement to a Chu/transitional I'd say. The palm keys are longer (no spoon keys) and the left-hand pinky keys are quite Chu nailfile G# in arrangement. It has that top F/C trill key and the G# trill key too.

Keywork is not as complicated/comprehensive as a modern horn, but straightforward and I like it. Bruno's techs have done a great job of restoring it and setting up the action - it's very quiet, smooth and certainly quick enough for my level of playing. Finished off with top of the line Selmer pads.

I was totally surprised, as was Bruno and his guys, by the tone and quality of it. Maybe it's just a lucky one, maybe it's the restoration process. He's had a couple of Holton Barris that have also been great, though.

If anyone can point me to some more info I'd be very keen to read more about it.

[jojosax]

Hi every body,
I am the happy owner of a Rudy Wiedoft soprano estimated late 20’s. It is my first soprano, I was expected to buy a Conn or Buescher but a repairer/seller convinced me to try this Holton and I am really not desapointed. I bought it recently, he is in a bad shape (dirty and vey old pads) but relly playable, I will repad it as soon as I havetime for it and as soon as I accept to stop playing it!!

I am not familiar with vintage horns but I can try to give my point of view on this sax :
the construction is very heavy and solid, it is a bit built like a tank but quite easy to play.
The tone is very rich, full of harmonics, really a nice big warm tone.
The silver plated is really perfect my sax has 100% of the plating even after all those years of service.
It has a top F/C key and 2 trill keys, the palm keys are a bit tricky for me (familiar with a yamaha alto)
The pearl key are small for my fingers but I am used to it now.
The G# key is round a too close to the G key for me so my finger slip on it sometimes.

As a conclusion a really love this sax for the sound, I previously had played a Yani S981 and a far prefer the Holton for the sound.

In the future I will for sure consider Holton saxs for my next purchase!!

Hope this help.

[geauxsax]

Hi every body,
I am the happy owner of a Rudy Wiedoft soprano estimated late 20’s. It is my first soprano, I was expected to buy a Conn or Buescher but a repairer/seller convinced me to try this Holton and I am really not desapointed. I bought it recently, he is in a bad shape (dirty and vey old pads) but relly playable, I will repad it as soon as I havetime for it and as soon as I accept to stop playing it!!

I am not familiar with vintage horns but I can try to give my point of view on this sax :
the construction is very heavy and solid, it is a bit built like a tank but quite easy to play.
The tone is very rich, full of harmonics, really a nice big warm tone.
The silver plated is really perfect my sax has 100% of the plating even after all those years of service.
It has a top F/C key and 2 trill keys, the palm keys are a bit tricky for me (familiar with a yamaha alto)
The pearl key are small for my fingers but I am used to it now.
The G# key is round a too close to the G key for me so my finger slip on it sometimes.

As a conclusion a really love this sax for the sound, I previously had played a Yani S981 and a far prefer the Holton for the sound.

In the future I will for sure consider Holton saxs for my next purchase!!

Hope this help.

Jojosax,
Thanks for the info, and it sounds like you have a great little soprano there. Nice to know we have SOTW folks all the way down in Gabon! I visited there last year (in Port Gentil) and had a great time.

[Mal 2]

Some other thoughts: I kind of wish I'd have kept an eye out for a horn with a high front F. Many of the Holtons of the same age range, and even 10K earlier on the serial number range have the spatula high front F.

I don't know if you're averse to such things, but it looks to me like there is plenty of room to "acquire" a Front F from some junker and have it expertly modified and affixed. It's not like any new holes have to be drilled, and the repairer could bend the crap out of the key as necessary since it isn't coming off that horn.

[geauxsax]

I don't know if you're averse to such things, but it looks to me like there is plenty of room to "acquire" a Front F from some junker and have it expertly modified and affixed. It's not like any new holes have to be drilled, and the repairer could bend the crap out of the key as necessary since it isn't coming off that horn.


I had been thinking about that as well. I wonder if the front F mechanism from an alto or C melody would work on my tenor, since I see many more of those than tenors for sale. Wouldn't the post(s) just need to be soldered on? I'm guessing here, since I'm not sure exactly how Holton affixed the "spatula" front F workings however. Anybody out there with an Elkhorn or Rudy with a front F willing to take a close up picture and post?

BTW Mal 2--what is that sax in your avatar? I saw it on another post earlier and meant to ask then. It looks quite striking.

[Mal 2]

I had been thinking about that as well. I wonder if the front F mechanism from an alto or C melody would work on my tenor, since I see many more of those than tenors for sale. Wouldn't the post(s) just need to be soldered on? I'm guessing here, since I'm not sure exactly how Holton affixed the "spatula" front F workings however. Anybody out there with an Elkhorn or Rudy with a front F willing to take a close up picture and post?

BTW Mal 2--what is that sax in your avatar? I saw it on another post earlier and meant to ask then. It looks quite striking.

You could probably get away with one piece shaped like |__| for minimal alteration to the horn itself, depending on the key that was chosen.

The horn in the avatar is my "daily driver" Jupiter JAS-767. When I was doing the cruise ship thing a friend and I had this "great" idea that bare metal would make us sound better. He put up an old Buescher tenor with half the lacquer already gone, and I picked the Jupiter, and we got some solvents, masks, and gloves. In the middle of the night we went out on deck and started working. I stripped the neck and bell, while he did just the neck.

You can guess how much this changed our sounds -- none at all. Neither one of us could detect any difference whatsoever, except now we had bare brass that was a PITA to handle and keep clean.

A couple weeks later we undid our mistakes as best we could. He bought a clear furniture varnish and I bought white bathtub enamel. My replacement finish has survived, and his was falling off inside of a month, so he used the last of my bathtub enamel. (If you see a tenor player in the Miami area sporting a Buescher with a white neck, and a sound modeled after Charlie Rouse, it's probably him.) It's actually a very effective finish, if you like white. I have left the inside of the bell bare brass, since it is possible to avoid touching it without TOO much difficulty.

I got tired of the white after a couple years, so I slapped metallic blue auto paint over the white bathtub enamel. Much to my surprise, it has been remarkably solid and I haven't so much as touched it up since I did so about 10 years ago. It has cracked in a couple places (mostly near the bell brace) to reveal a glimpse of the white enamel underneath, but it has not peeled off. Once again, I detected absolutely no difference in the sound.

The lacquer on this instrument is so unbelievably bad that I may complete the stripping job some day and apply some new finish, but I think the blue just might have to stay. It is, as you mentioned, quite striking. I will have to find a color of bathtub enamel I really like, since I have yet to find anything that is as durable.

A full size picture can be found at http://mal-2.com/sax/alto-mods3.jpg -- if you look really closely you can see where the paint did not stick well at the base of the B/Bb key guard, and the enamel shows through a little bit. Also there is a tiny (about 1.5 mm) white spot visible on the front, where the horn got dented from the inside by an SM-57. The paint cracked but the enamel did not. Finally, down at the bell/bow ring, you can see a ring of white where the enamel clings tenaciously but the blue paint didn't.

Embarrassingly, you can see the low B pad is mismatched (plastic reso) because I failed to order one when I ordered every other pad on the instrument! That one pad is original equipment, all the others have been changed out.

[bruce bailey]

Years ago we added a frton F to a Conn soprano using parts from a Clarinet A key. For Tenor, an alto or bass clarinet A key may wor. You could remove the key cup, bend or lengthen the arm and use the mounting posts. Epoxy them on so the finish is not altered.

[geauxsax]

Years ago we added a frton F to a Conn soprano using parts from a Clarinet A key. For Tenor, an alto or bass clarinet A key may wor. You could remove the key cup, bend or lengthen the arm and use the mounting posts. Epoxy them on so the finish is not altered.

Great idea about the clarinet parts--it would certainly look similar to the Holton spatula key. I'll be on the look out for suitable parts.

[blackfrancis]

Just got my Holton sop back from a repad- the tendency is for it to play really nice!

[jojosax]

Yesterday I played a yani S981 and for sure the sound of the holton is far better the intonation of both sax are very good but the sound of my holton is more dark, more rich.

[saxdawg]

I've read on some vintage horn sites that some of the 50s Holtons have a sound similar to the Conn 10 Ms. I also own a 36 10M and would say this is true. I,m only a neophyte, but this is my observation. I test played a beautiful Holton alto for sale at doctorsax.biz a while back. Ended up buying a Martin tho. The horn is still there and cheap. Check it out.

[apolaine]

Yes, I'm still very happy with my Holton. It seems to be a bit of a mysterious hit and miss though about which models are good and bad. My sax tech reckons mine is late 30s or early 40s judging by the design and so that would mean that the 1938 date I found (I think on Dr. Rick's serial lists) would be about right. Certainly the key guards look late deco moving into 40s style. I promise I'll post some pictures soon!

[geauxsax]

Just got my Holton sop back from a repad- the tendency is for it to play really nice!

Blackfrancis,
Did you get resonators put on, or did you stay with non-reso pads? If you added resonators, have you noticed any dramatic change in sound?

[blackfrancis]

I did have plastic resonators installed. There is no real difference other than a more balanced tone up and down- the notes with more open holes and the notes with more closed holes are closer tone-wise. But on the whole, nothing dramatic. Still that big full sound. And now my forked Eb works!

[jazzbug1]

I own a rare Rudy C Melody, a Rudy Bb soprano (still being restored) and a gold Rudy alto. I find the C Melody to be superior to all I have played (The Martin has a slightly larger bore and is capable of more volume) and this horn does well in the altissimo. The alto has a big sound, like a Conn, but is noticeably brighter, using a Goldbeck mouthpiece. My Holton C soprano plays very well in tune and I can't wait to finish the Bb. Holton got its act together by the mid 1920s. Plating problems and sometimes intonation differences pop up in their early horns, serial #s under 10,000. Don't believe those published serial #s(see the other topics), as they are wrong. The Rudys came out in the Spring of 1928 and Holtons kept the odd breather key on the low C into the 1930s. Furthermore, the Rudys copied the Selmer idea of placing both bell keys on the left side. I believe they were the first US company to do this. Mid 20s and later Holtons play in tune and can match any vintage horn for big sound and projection. I play jazz from classic to progressive and always have other players wondering what kind of horn I am playing. Holtons are probably the most undervalued 1920s-30s horns on the market. Try one and you will agree.

[bruce bailey]

Good to hear the C soprano is in tune. I had 2 Conns that were horrible and just got a Holton C soprano and have not got it working yet. I also have 4 altos and they are very nice and affordable.

[DavyRay]

Some pics of the Big H:


Looks like a Martin. All the details fit.

[jazzbug1]

As to the front F key: Holtons after approximately #18000 have them, placing this addition to around 1924. They, along with King and Conn, had this feature in the 20s. As Rascher's altissimo fingerings came into use, other companies added this feature in the early 1930s. Holton used the spatula type front F vs. Conn and King who used the pearl finger key. Keilworth and Selmer used this the spatula key off and on to the present. If you are a clarinettist, you realise the advantage of the spatula, as in the middle A key. The side of the finger can reach it quickly, without a direct finger placement on a key, as in the Conn design. Other than that odd low C breather key, which was used only for about five years, all those odd Holton features are very useful. For you concert players, that C to D trill key makes the very last phrase of Wiedoeft's "Saxophobia" relatively easy. Try that very rapid move from G# to mid C to mid D numerous times. It is extremely difficult with any other horn except the Holton. I'll call Frank Holton on the Psychic Hotline for more information.

[geauxsax]

Looks like a Martin. All the details fit.

It's close, but not quite the same. I compared with some pics of a Martin Handcraft tenor on ebay, as well as info from Cybersax website.

http://www.cybersax.com/QA/Q&A_Stencil_Saxophones.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/Martin-Handcraft-Tenor-Sax-Saxophone-Circa-1925_W0QQitemZ150229792448QQihZ005QQcategoryZ16234 QQcmdZViewItem

My Holton's soldered tone holes are not beveled. Neck tenon on my Holton tightens from left hand, vice from the right as Martins are said to do. F-F# trill keys are different (Martin is teeter-totter, Holton has lever rotating on perpindicular plane to length of sax.) LH palm keys are different (Martin F3 key curves around E flat tone hole, mine doesn't). RH pinky key spatulas are shaped differently. Bell braces are different too. Mine "Y's" out along width of bell, Martin looks in pictures like it goes up bell.

update: Found a pic of a Handcraft with the non teeter totter trill key (the Brass HC tenor on Saxpics). I couldn't see serial numbers, but the brass tenor looked older than the other (silver) examples. Also with the HCs--some have protruding supports on the bow, some don't. My Holton does not (it is "Conn-like"). Still lots of differences.

[geauxsax]

As to the front F key: Holtons after approximately #18000 have them, placing this addition to around 1924. They, along with King and Conn, had this feature in the 20s. As Rascher's altissimo fingerings came into use, other companies added this feature in the early 1930s. Holton used the spatula type front F vs. Conn and King who used the pearl finger key. Keilworth and Selmer used this the spatula key off and on to the present. If you are a clarinettist, you realise the advantage of the spatula, as in the middle A key. The side of the finger can reach it quickly, without a direct finger placement on a key, as in the Conn design. Other than that odd low C breather key, which was used only for about five years, all those odd Holton features are very useful. For you concert players, that C to D trill key makes the very last phrase of Wiedoeft's "Saxophobia" relatively easy. Try that very rapid move from G# to mid C to mid D numerous times. It is extremely difficult with any other horn except the Holton. I'll call Frank Holton on the Psychic Hotline for more information.

It must have been optional. Rudy's have the front F, and I've seen many tenors and altos from mid 20XXX serial number range that have it, but my 39XXX does not. Mine doesn't have the extra keys down by RH palm keys either. I saw a 26XXX tenor in NYC yesterday that had all of these. It also had the larger G# on the LH spatula vice the pearl button. An earlier horn, featuring what I would consider more modern and desirable features.

Another couple of variables between this fairly short year range was the LH palm keys, and the octave key thumb actuator.

Some horns have a round tear-drop octave key thumb actuator. Mine however has a ridge on it, with a crescent out of the bottom to match the contour of the thumb rest below. ( I think the teardrop key would be more comfortable).

The LH palm keys on my horn have long skinny "buttons" on the end, and the keys are very low. The 26XXX horn I saw yesterday also had much higher (farther out from sax) levers, with much rounder "buttons" on the end

These changes don't seem to have any rhyme or reason. In every case, I would have preferred the version on the earlier horn I looked at. Don't get me wrong, I still dig my horn, but the random and seemingly regressive changes baffle me.

[geauxsax]

Well, some updates on my Holton tenor, detailed earlier in this thread.

(quick recap: approx 1928 Holton Elkhorn silver tenor, with gold wash bell, recently given top notch overhaul and set up).

First off, the sax is not as touchy concerning mouthpieces as I would have thought. I haven't tried any screamer pieces like Bergs or Dukoffs yet, but I started out conservatively on a new HR link 6*. It works great. I tried a Rico Graphtonite A5 and Metalite M5 too. I also bought a WWBW labelled Vandoren Blue Java MS (whatever MS works out to). Lastly, I just bought a Metal Link STM 8 from SOTWer Chitownjazz that SOTWer EZ had reworked for him and opened to a .113 tip. (I highly recommend Chitownjazz for any transactions too!)

The HR link worked terrifically, with a lush low end. The Rico Graphtonite was similar, but just not quite as refined--certainly OK given the price though. The WWBW blue piece simply didn't want to work for me--maybe just not my style (?) Stuffy and squeaky. The Metalite made the top end of the horn really come alive, with still a decent bottom end--and LOUD. Lots of fun with that one.

But. . .the refaced STM link brought the horn to life in a way that really startled me. WOW. Power, low end, high end, clarity, super response and a really precise feel. This is the first piece I've ever owned that's been worked on by a refacer, so maybe that has a lot to do with this, but still--WOW.
(all mouthpieces used with Rico Royal 2.5s).

The horn: The low end that this thing gets is very impressive. Lush. Full. Beautiful. Effortless. I'd really like to compare it with a Martin, given comments about Martins. Like I said in an earlier post, this Holton is really heavily built. I compare it often with my other tenor--a King 615. The Holton seems to have a much deeper and more complex sound, if that makes any sense (and I like the King). Downsides: C3, C#3, and the palm keys can play flat. A and B below them can get a little "reedy", but both the Metalite and the STM experience much less of a problem with the flatness. The STM does away with the reediness of high A and B too. Ergos: Old, like the time frame would suggest, but quick and quiet following the pro set up. RH thumb hook is comfortable, and neckstrap hook position is good too. The octave key is a little uncomfortable--I wish it were the teardrop-shaped one many other Holtons have--it is crescent-shaped around the thumb rest, with a horizontal ridge on it as well. The LH pinky key cluster, with pearl G# takes geting used too as well, but I'd bet it works as well as any others of the era. Level of effort is good, just a little awkward angle of the entire cluster, and of course the pearl key requires precision.

I have a lot of fun with this horn. I would really like to see a comparison with other horns of the era--unfortunately, I don't have any others from that time. I (obviously) think this horn is underrated. Fixing up a Holton isn't going to give you any sort of an investment, but against any of the others of the era, I think this could be surprisingly pleasing.

[jazzbug1]

Hello-- I have been playing mid to late 1920s Holtons professionally for 40 years. Mine are all in excellent condition. I have a Rudy C Melody, C soprano, Rudy Bb soprano (currently at Jand J woodwinds for re-plating), and I had a baritone. I have found the ergonomics among the best of the per-war horns, the intonation to be excellent, the plating and assembly excellent, and they are heavy, with thick tone hole edges. I have never tried a tenor, and the baritone was replaced by a "Chu Berry" Conn, which had more punch vs. the mellower Holton. The C soprano is surprisingly in tune, and all the horns, except the aforementioned baritone, play much like a Conn. However: the Holton bore is larger, enabling more volume, and the alto and C Melody produce a noticeably brighter tone than the Conn, so they can fit into a more modern sound with an aggressive mouthpiece. I think the reason Holton saxophones received a bad rap (contrary to their brass instruments) is as follows: I have re-built and sold many Holton C Melodys. I have noticed, in the serial #s below 10,000, which dates them to the teens and early 20s, a definite problem with some horns in intonation. Furthermore, I have seen in these thin plating, which wears in places no other horn wear, such as around the edges of the keys. My guess is, when these horns were polished a few times, the plating was so thin it wore off easily. By the mid 20s, these defects disappear, as my 1924 C soprano is flawless in finish and is as good as one could expect in intonation, even up to high F. The Holtons were early in supplying a front F key, around 1925, their sopranos went to high F, which was rare in other makes, and that funny key at the right hand near side C/Bb is a very useful C to D, D to Eb, and C# to D. Try those on any other horn with lightning speed. I have seen Holton prices climbing, perhaps due to fans like myself blabbing about them. Tha Rudy Wiedoeft models are the most interesting, due to their cute little (effective?) low C breather key and the sliding mouthpiece attachment. Another Holton "plus" was that their cases were made at the plant and not by an outside supplyer. They are very plush and are custom fit for Holtons. Some other makes will not fit a Holton case. Did you ever notice how much movement is allowed for in some 1920s cases. This factor allows the horn to sustain damage in a hard drop. The Holtons are very snug and well-padded. I have seen photos of Holtons from the late
1930s which have rolled tone holes, and probably sound much like a 10M, which is my tenor choice. Love those Holtons.

[tristantattoos]

I don't know THAT much about saxes.... but I know good tone when I hear it. My guitarist is an insufferable PRICK about tone, and he has a NICE vintage Martin and listens to a LOT of jazz... the first time he heard me play my vintage (1920s) Holton tenor, he asked me what kind of horn I was playing... he said it had GREAT tone... and my double bassist ASSURES me that this guy NEVER gives compliments on tone! He complimented my tone TWICE that night... and everyone who's heard this horn does the same... including my wife... this tenor looks BEAT and has almost NO shine left to it... just a gnarly patina that makes it look like it wouldn't even be playable... but the biggest, most complex, rich, dark tone imaginable. This horn came from an old (almost 90 years old) man in Del Mar who played in big bands back in that era and this was his mainstay... I lucked into it for 50 bucks, including the case and a vintage Brilhart Personaline MPC... it's patinaed as hell but the pads are good and the action is like butter... I've played other, far more expensive horns that don't feel half as good and don't have the RIGHT to be in the same room as this stinky old eyesore when it comes to TONE and that vintage jazz sound... I pray to GOD I can dig up an alto from that era...

[bruce bailey]

I am getting some Holton altos ready to sell (all gold plated) and one is a Rudy that I don't have time to repad. Even with the old pads (sealing well) this thing roars! I have a Mark VI, Conns, Martins, Bueschers and this one is as good or better. I decided to sell two and keep one, whichever doesn't sell.

[soybean]

but the biggest, most complex, rich, dark tone imaginable. This horn came from an old (almost 90 years old) man in Del Mar who played in big bands back in that era and this was his mainstay... I lucked into it for 50 bucks, including the case and a vintage Brilhart Personaline MPC…It sounds like you got an amazing bargain on a great sax. If you get a chance, post the serial number and description in the Serial number registry next door; http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=70892

[jazzbug1]

I bought a Rudy model tenor on Ebay several weeks ago. It was VERY misrepresented, as the following flaws were not mentioned: G# trill key missing, plating on keys flaking (usually due to moist storage), and the Eb palm key had a huge solder mess. These flaws were NOT visible in the photos and this was from an instrument dealer who had a 100% rating. Now that I've blown off steam, all except the plating, which I will send to J and J Woodwinds, is professionally fixed (by me). I have played a Conn 10M tenor, which has been cared for by its previous owner and myself. It plays flawlessly and the huge fat sound is amazing. I compared both horns, using a 1941 Link Master Tone #3 mouthpiece with a #3 1/2 V-16 Van Doren reed. Here are the results: The octave key register on the Holton is brighter and easier to play, including some altissimo vs. the Conn on which altissimo is virtually impossible with my conservative set-up. The notes on the bottom, below F, are silky and can be whispered on the Conn like no other horn, whereas the Holton has a beautifully colored tone, but is not quite as soft. The bore on the Holton is a few thousanths inch smaller, which would give it these characteristics. The ergonomics of both horns are excellent, with a slight plus to the Conn for a bar type G# touch. The Holton is every bit a Conn Chu Berry model, with an extra brightness in the top end, exactly as I found the Rudy alto. I have never played a non-Rudy Holton alto or tenor, but I have re-built many C melodys and find them the best, along with the Martins, especially the front F models, so I would assume all later 1920s Holtons have this advantage of brightness over the Conns.I will keep the Holton and put the Conn on Ebay, as visually the Holton will be stunning when finished and it gives an over-all balance in both octaves. I play classic jazz from 20s to be-bop, so the mellower, older horns fit my needs. I would love to find out why Holton saxophones have been dissed so much, mainly by people who never owned one. I can't understand how a few so-so models in the late teens-early 20s could have caused such a bad rap. Most players would think I'm nuts to trade a 10M for a Holton. I would love to try one of the late 30s Holton tenors with the rolled tone holes and cool-looking coat guard on the bell. They are as scarce as the Rudy tenors.

[soybean]

I bought a Rudy model tenor on Ebay several weeks ago. It was VERY misrepresented, as the following flaws were not mentioned…Aww, too bad. I hate when that happens. It sounds like you've got the "issues" nicely under control though. Did you have an extra G# trill-key laying around?


I would love to find out why Holton saxophones have been dissed so much, mainly by people who never owned one. I can't understand how a few so-so models in the late teens-early 20s could have caused such a bad rap.Either those early horns or possibly the 1960s student models (?) are the source of the bad reputation. But hey, that's what we're trying to change here, right?

[bruce bailey]

I just bought a nice looking 30s Holton alto with a serial number starting wiht an R. What is it? Not here yet....

[soybean]

I just bought a nice looking 30s Holton alto with a serial number starting with an R. What is it? Not here yet....I've never heard of a letter being used. All sorts of ideas floated into my head like, R=registered, R=regular, R=Rudy or R=rolled tone-holes. Who knows? Please give us the scoop when she arrives.

[bruce bailey]

Here's the auction link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260282525811&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=016
Could it be a Revelation model?

[LaPorte]

Could it be a Revelation model?

No Revelation, no Holton.

This one was the preceding model of the "20A" deriving from "The Elkhart made by Buescher"*. Those were usually sold as Stencils in the beginning thirties. A bit confusing are the joint rings which were used by Buescher in the teenth before changing production from soldered to drawn toneholes (ca.1918-20). They look indeed similiar to the joint rings Holton designed for his Revelation and R.Wiedoeft-models (mainly in the twenties).

*some call them second line horns, but they were professionally made and in no way "student horns" (Rev. Ol' bear, Cybersax)

I personally like their smooth and rich sound coming out of them e.g. with a Yanagisawa mpc silverplated brass, open tip (8-9, soft reed).

Congratulations to this interesting find!:)

Felix

[mad-dog]

I don't see where this horn says Holton on it at all. It's a Holton case, for sure - but the "made in Elkhart" above the bow/bell joint to me argues against it being even a Holton stencil. Beats my pair of jacks what it is, but it's a fine looking artifact. Let us know when you have it in hand.

Dave

[bruce bailey]

I assumed it was a WM or MW that we discussed before but I think it may have some relation to the "old" Elkhart brand. The tone holes would rule out IBIco. too. For that money I could take a chance as I really need the Holton case for another horn! The finish looks petty nice too.

[LaPorte]

Some pics of the Big H:








Great pictures!

This Tenor is unique and in this combination of attributes and features probably very rare. I would like to add it to the Holton model list (thread: serial number registation). Why do you call it the 'Big H'? As this model was probaly built for a very short time this could be some sort of reference dating the Holton serial numbers. Would you please tell us the complete number, is it written in an arc? Is there added a "T" or a "Bb"? Does it say "Low Pitch" or "LP" or other?

Thank you

Felix

[geauxsax]

Felix,
I just call it the "Big H" because it is just my big Holton (I'm originally a Clarinet and Alto sax player). I am quite proud of the horn as well. One interesting thing--I was comparing the soldered tone holes (non beveled unlike Martin) to my Conn 10M, and I think the Holton's tone holes have a larger flat surface area than the Conn. If the roll is good for pad longevity (or whatever else) with the Conns, then the Holton should get the same effect and then some.

Anyway, the serial number is: 39448, written in a big arc, with a little Bb centered right above. Nothing about low pitch noted on the sax--just sn and key.

[LaPorte]

Thank you for the info, geauxsax:).

Your Tenor is the New Revelation or Revelation II, built ca. 1930. Explanations to classification and year of manufacture follow.

Felix

[jazzbug1]

I find it odd that your tenor does not have the alternate high F fingering. Perhaps this model was a lower-priced horn. Another year or so later, Holton got away from alternate side bell keys and put them both on the left side, as was first done on the Wiedoeft models of 1928. Your model also has a gold inner bell, which was new for 1930 on the non-Rudy models, as with rare exceptions, Holton was the only US maker to not feature a gold bell in the 1920s. Instead they used a highly polished silver bell. I agree that the metal thickness on the Holtons makes not only for a big solid sound, but also seals the pads very well. I recently overhauled a Conn C Melody and was surprised at the thinness of the metal, so perhaps the rolled edge tone hole had to added to get a firm seal. Most Conn stencils do not have rolled tone holes and the seal is so narrow, it looks like it could cut the pad in a few years. Bsesides, the celebrated Conn C Melody sounds "tubby" and does not have the projection and brightness of the Holton. I just sold a Holton C melody on Ebay and using Freree's maximum size resonator pads, it sounded fantastic. I almost kept it, but why have two C melodys? The lucky buyer $300) got the best sounding C I have ever played (along with my Rudy).

[soybean]

I just sold a Holton C melody on Ebay and using Freree's maximum size resonator pads, it sounded fantastic.How did I miss that one? My Holton C-mel needs pads desperately. I should have just bought yours. Does Freree make a specific set for C melody?

[jazzbug1]

Pad sets are not a good option, as makers frequently changed their cup size. The only way to re-pad a horn is to measure each cup with a mm ruler. They go by 1/2 mm size, so when in doubt, order the smaller of the two options. A tiny bit smaller than the cup is better than a tiny bit larger. I recommend Music Medic. The only reason I use Frerree's is that someone gave me a huge supply. Good luck!

[geauxsax]

Holton fans,
I know there are a lot more Holton owners out there reading the board that the handful that regularly post. I would ask that you update this "playing tendencies" thread, per the original post. The good, bad, and ugly is all welcomed--no need for only "rosy" observations. As always, pics are a plus too! :D Let's get to the bottom of the Holton reputation, whether it was deserved or not, and if any particular model may be to blame.

On the flip side, if you're playing a horn found at a garage sale with 80 year old pads and damage, and it sucks, then that is an important caveat too. (that is the case with someone who was thrashing Holton on the board a few years back---several posts about how bad their horn was, then in a later post, an admission about its sorry state of repair.)

[blackfrancis]

Still playing my soprano- still looks great, plays sweet- just as it has for the 38 years
I've had it!

[apolaine]

I'm still really enjoying my Tenor. I'll try and post some images of it soon and I'd like to share the serial number too, which I know is a total lottery with Holtons.

In terms of playing tendencies, I find that the pitch and intonation difference between cold and warm is larger than I've noticed on other saxes. Sometimes I find myself having to adjust by a good 6mm by after about 10 mins of playing.

[jazzbug1]

I find the overall tone to be brighter than other horns of the 1920s-30s. The ergonomics are good for the era. The only serious intonation problem I've had was on the Rudy tenor, which required the low C and breather key to be adjusted down about 1/4 inch to get the D in tune. I'm very excited to see how my new 244 tenor will play. It is about a month from completon.

[jazzbug1]

I recently picked up a Conn Comet mouthpiece on EBay. It is a Santy Runyon design from about 1950 and is of the elongated style, giving the airflow a higher velocity. The sound proced is round and full, with a slight edge. It sounds great and plays in tune on my Rudy tenor. Aside from my rarely used 85/2 Berg Larsen M.P., it is the only post 1940 item in my heap. The Larsen makes the Rudy scream. Not the sound I (or Rudy) want. I was surprised how modern the aged Rudy tenor sounded with either M.P. I noticed the neck bore to be very close to a Selmer Mark VI, which would be quite radical for 1929.