Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

[soybean]

It's been pointed out by a few people here, including Bruce Bailey, that Holton sax serial number lists on the internet are not correct. It sure would be nice to have an accurate list. To help this problem, I'm starting this registry.

Everyone please list the number on your horn and specifically what the features are. In the future, it might be possible to make a better list of serial numbers from what we do here. I'll start out with my C-melody, some serials from this board and then some pertinent quotes from others.

#22051
"Frank Holton, Elkhorn, Wis."
Silver plate, C-melody with lots of extra keys including front F. Has opposing bell keys (butterfly style)
I'm guessing it's between 1925-1929.

#27422
"silver plate alto with 'extra' keys."

#118552 "made in 1935 (?) Frank Holton & Co. tenor sax that has - made by Revelation.. above the Holton name.

[by the way, if any of you have an original sales receipt in the sax case, please list the date of sale]

Holton… satin gold plated tenor with polished gold plated keys and polished inside the bell serial No 89XX so i'm guessing pretty early. It has no engraving apart from frank Holton etc (nothing ornate)
it has soldered but not bevelled tone holes,
has the extra C# and G trill keys (i think thats right.)

Sax_Pete: "Frank Holton soprano serial 39xxx"

Bruce Baily: "Handcraft clone #37xxx and every bit as good as a real Martin"

"holton baritone sax, silvered, serial #14xxx"

TenTenTooter: "The tenor has soldered tone holes, Eb fork fingering, G# trill, high D trill, serial number either 11xx or 11xxx."

beboplawyer: "Holton model 241 Tenor from 1948 (?) Serial 195***"

hafuch: "I've been playing a silver-plated Holton tenor model 243 (sn 277xxx) from 1955 (?), and I have rarely played its equal."

fredj608: "Soprano. it's nickel-plated and the main part, not the keys and action, is sandblasted. Made by Frank Holton and Co, Elkhorn Wis engraved on the bell-front, and "Bb 18782" and the letters L P widely spaced on the bell-back."

tommyr: "I have been playing an old Holton since at least 1975. It has withstood many bumps on the way. It has a better tone than any other soprano I have tried.It has the high F key . Many question the year, and I have no idea other than a sreial # of 32560."


I have never found an accurate Holton list. I have a Holton Alto that is a Martin stencil that would be from 1917 according to most lists but it has the tone hole style that Martin started using in 1923 and the G# lever that Lyon & Healy (another Martin stencil) started in around 1927. Bottom line, compare some features to determine the year like front F, etc. Remember that opposing bell keys disappeared around the early 30s. Also the Rudy Weidoft models have LH bell keys and most numbers fall in the teens from lists I have seen.Serial number charts indicate my horn was built in 1912.(They all look like they're quoting the same source.) My bell says "Frank Holton Elkhorn Wisconsin". Reliable information has it that Holton moved to Elkhorn in 1918. …how do we account for the bell engraving that, if made in 1912, should read Chicago?I have 2 Weidoeft altos which date to 1916/1917 on all the lists I have seen. My Holton Tenor dates to 1912 and my baritone to 1915. However, I recently got an original Holton brochure which describes the "New" Rudy Weidoeft Holtons in detail (extra keys and all!) and quite clearly dates them to the late 1920's - which goes with the LH bell keys, too. A bit mysterious.
Incidentally, all my Holtons are inscribed "Elkhorn, Wis." although (supposedly) dating to before 1918.
As to the way they play - I reckon the ordinary Holtons play better than the RW which has a very slow/clumsy G#. My tenor, although not in brilliant cosmetic condition, plays well in tune with a warm vintage sound. The angle of the crook is uncomfortable, though. Another good point about Holtons is that they very often have a front high F key.
The Wiedoeft models started to appear in the late 20s but didn't do terribly well in the market. Holtons had had many of the same special features for years previously. (Some horns had the) "Master Key" features (alternate trill keys), and the venting or speaker key down by low C. I'm not sure what was added to the Wiedoeft models; maybe someone else can chip in there. Ahh "Master Key"- now i know what to call them!Wasn't Beaufort a student line, like Collegiate later on? I had thought the pro line before the Rudys was called Revelation. In any case, a lot of pre-Rudys are just marked Frank Holton & Co. / [location, see below].

I recently saw a tenor in NYC similar to the above, but without the speaker key, and engraved Chicago instead of Elkhorn, Wis. as most Holtons were. (Chicago marking would date it pre-1917, Elkhorn, post-1917.)Some [Holton saxes] are great, others not great. I have found that they tended to have models made by them (the ones with the added C# trill and clarinet style front F) and some made by others. I had an alto that was a Courturier stencil that was like a Lyon & Healy with Martin style tone holes. What I DO know is that the serial number lists are way off. Mine was from around 1928 but the serial number came back as a 1917 horn. Go by style and features not by the numbers. The made a lot of gold plated ones and some of the gold plated sopranos are really nice. I have seen several in C.

[geauxsax]

Mine is matte-finish silverplate Tenor "Elkhorn" (not Rudy Wiedoeft), sn 384XX with opposing bell keys, high f (but not with alternate fingering mechanism on front), soldered but not beveled tone holes, pearl-button G sharp, straight bell brace, and straight brace on underside of neck. Also has gold-wash inside bell. Very similar but not exactly like Silver Elkhorn Tenor on Saxpics.

Update: Took this baby in for full overhaul today (15 Nov), will get back at around New Years. I'll let everyone know how it plays when I get it back. Also, this is a pretty stoutly built axe. . .thick metal, and noticibly heavier than a Conn Chu Tenor I checked out while at the shop. The Chu's keywork (tuned and lubed up properly however, compared to the "in-the-attic for several decades" state of my Holton) made the Holton feel like a dinosaur to me though. . .still, the technician seemed pretty optimistic about the Holton, so I'm excited about future results!

[soybean]

Thanks for adding that. I didn't know Holton beveled their tone-holes but maybe those would be on the stencils Martin made for Holton.

[bruce bailey]

The Holton Alto I had was likely made by Courturier which was bought by L&H around 1928. The Holton was identical to the L&H horns made in the 1928-? era. That would put my 37,xxx Holton as being in the 1928-29 region. Another thing that makes the Holton published lists inaccurate is that the Rudy horns tend to have teens serial numbers but the construction looks late 20s. I bought a Rudy yesterday and will post back when I figure out a year. I think the stencils with beveled soldered tone holes were either Courturier or IBIco. horns and not Martin.

[ianhart]

Add mine (ok, my school's) to the mix-
1917 (maybe not, apparently) Holton Elkhorn Bari, nickel plated, C-D trill, G# trill, pearl G#, front altissimo F, Eb trill, soldered on tone holes, opposed bell keys, and says "low pitch" under the serial number.

S/N 27XXX

[soybean]

found this online: Holton C Melody #6407: Satin silver plate with gold plate inside bell. Has name professionally engraved inside bell. Standard low pitch with extra right hand G# key and alternate D key, and forked Eb key.

[soybean]

From Junkdude: "Holton C-Soprano Saxophone is keyed to high F. It is very hard to find a C-Soprano keyed to high F...this is our first. This model also features: forked Eb and pearl rollers.Serial number 19565. My best guess is this is from the mid-1920s."

[blackfrancis]

Holton Bb soprano, keyed to high F. Alt. G# & D keys. Bell reads Frank Holton Elkhorn, Wis. S/N 31576- I'd guess mid to late '20s. (A great horn that I've played for 37 years.)

[Mope]

137xxx Collegiate 1940?

[giancarlo]

just get a nice mark Vi

[geauxsax]

just get a nice mark Vi


Thanks for the tip.

[bruce bailey]

I can safely say that 38,000 would be about 1928 based on the one I had. As I mentioned over at the C Melody site, Holton appears to have seperate serial numbers for woodwinds or at least saxes. Similar to the Conn lists.

[geauxsax]

I can safely say that 38,000 would be about 1928 based on the one I had.


Thanks Bruce--that seems a lot more plausable to me than the 1917 the list showed, just looking at the case and comparing it to my '27 Buescher True Tone.

[soybean]

These quotes are from Jazzbug1.

"Just won off Ebay a Rudy model Bb soprano, with a serial # in the 30000 series, which puts it in the 1928-29 time of birth, according to my estimates. The later Holtons (about 1925 and later) were very nice horns: in tune, extra good plating and a brilliant tone. This quality kept up until after the war, when, to my knowledge, they stopped making professional grade saxophones."

"The Wiedoeft models came out in late 1928, and the earliest I have seen (a transition model) is serial #26643. Furthermore, I have a letter from the Holton Co. stating that my C soprano, #18319, left the factory in 1922. Check your soprano serial # and you should be able to approximate it based on these set dates. Wiedoeft played Conns and Selmers. My teacher studied under him. I have a Selmer catalog showing Rudy with Henri Selmer in the late 20s. He endorses the Selmer horns. Many of his songs show him with a straight neck C Melody, which I assume is a Conn."


Jazzbug1 Nov 15: "I have a letter sent to me in 1962 from the Holton factory that their saxophone #19xxx was built in 1922. They even gave me the month, but the letter is buried in my over 100 years of archives. Furthermore, I have a company catalog from 1928 showing the first Wiedoeft models came out in the spring of 1928. My early (transitional) Wiedoeft C Melody is #27,000. The bulk of the Holton C Melodys I have seen in person or on Ebay run from #12,000--30,000, which puts them in the 1920s (the age of the C Melody).

These ages (online) I see for Holton saxophones all advertise "1909, 1915", etc. I'm not sure Holton was building saxophones this early, so all the evidence points to the fact that the website Holton serial #s for saxophones are off by over a decade, at least when applied to the 1920s. It's quite possible that since Holton was primarily a brass instrument maker, and got into saxophones only on a large scale by about 1920, as did other smaller companies, that the saxophone serial #s may follow a different lineage than the brass, hence the odd gaps and jumps in the above list. I see Ebay ads for "Rudy Wiedoeft model, 1915". Rudy was still an unknown at this time and did not become famous until his recording of "Saxophobia" for Victor in 1922. The Wiedoeft models run from 27,000 up to around 37,000. When the economic boom ended in late 1929, Holton was near bankruptcy, and failed to pay Rudy anything for using his name on their horn, which was a Holton design Rudy had nothing to do with. The only features on the Rudy model that were not on the regular Holtons were the corkless mouthpiece slide and the low C breather key with the large cage. By the late 20s, Holton made a saxophone I personally prefer over the Conn for its brightness. The ergonomics are good for the day and the gold plated models are not uncommon. The only disapointment is that they did not offer a deluxe engraving option, as most other companies did. The early 1920s models did have intonation problems sometimes, which gave Holton a bad name and a low re-sale price, but the later 20s-30s produced fine horns. Try one. You'll like it!"


**Check this one out! Finally, some actual documented serial numbers with exact dates from the Holton company.

Jazzbug1 Nov 15: "Soybean- Thanks for stimulating me to go through my scrapbooks and letters from the past 45 years of music. It was fun and brought back many memories and friendships. I found some exact information which confirms my suspicion about the published Holton #s. To quote Senator McCarthy, "I have in my hand a letter which will incriminate the Holton serial numbers." In 1966, I received a letter from Tom Smith, who worked for Holton. He gave me two exact dates for two horns. One was a C soprano sax, #18319, which was shipped out of the factory on 11-18-1924. The other instrument was my friend's Holton cornet, #63323, which was shipped on 3-2-1928. My Wiedoeft is among the first, and it is #26648. The Wiedoeft literature I have, brochure "Birds of a Feather", introduces the horn in 1928. This all makes sense with the output of Holton saxophones in the 20s. Since the # for the cornet doesn't match the list, I suspect the list could be wrong for the 1920s as it is incorrect for a saxophone and a cornet, at least. The majority of the Wiedoefts I have seen range in the low 30,000s, which makes sense, as that would approximately correspond to 1929-30. Please feel free to use my information as you wish. Holton serial #s are quite a mystery, but using a little extrapolation, my numbers can help, assuming Holton sax production was minimal in 1919 and gradually maxed by 1929. Your 22051 might be around 1925. Since Holton was primarily a brass instrument maker, they still could have easily built 20,000 saxophones between the documented 1924 C soprano and the Wiedoefts of say 1929-30.

I have a Wiedoft alto (Gold) at #35418, a Wiedoeft Bb soprano (silver) at #34995, and the aformentioned C Melody, which is silver with gold keys. I have a Wiedoeft model brochure which lists finishes and prices. When looking at factory outputs, one must realize that within six months of the October, 1929 crash, factories were at a fraction of their 1929 rates of production, so it makes sense that the Wiedoeft models and their serial #s cover the span of 1928-30, with production dropping very quickly by mid-1930.

The only luxury the middle class American family bought in the early depression were radios. Instrument sales plummeted, and so did the C Melody. Radios sold so well that half the furniture built in the 1930s was radio cabinets. People put up with second hand furniture, but had to have that radio. Too bad they didn't feel the need for C Melody saxophones any more, as it would have developed with the other horns."


Bruce Bailey wrote this reply:
"I think that the Holton numbers are like the Conns. They have 2 seperate lists for woodwinds and brass. I had a Holton Alto that was identical to my L&H Courturier models with the LH G#/C# key shaped like an "L" which opened both pads together. This was the style of my 200,000 series L&H which I confirmed (from someone's bill of sale) to be 1928-30. The Holton was 37,xxx so I will guess it was made about 1928ish which would be consistant with Jazzbug's Wiedolft list. I am waiting on a Rudy I won on ebay that is 35,xxx."


**So after all this evidence, it's obvious that the online serial numbers for Holton saxes is wrong and should not be used. It's also pretty evident that the published lists are for brass instruments such as trumpets & trombones.

~

[geauxsax]

Great info--Now we're getting somewhere! :)

[bruce bailey]

Who is going to tell Lars Kirmser???

[soybean]

I'm not sure who Lars is, but if he's the person who puts these serial number lists together, I'll be happy to contact him.

[bruce bailey]

If you google Lars Kirmser, it will lead you do the lists. Actually a pretty nice site.

[dolf250]

Oh well;
I bid on and lost a tenor on ebay. Serial # 26986 and the neck was stamped Jan 1923. Hope that helps with something.
If anybody wants the pictures (including the date on the neck) for their files the link is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260182007938&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=016

[geauxsax]

Oh well;
I bid on and lost a tenor on ebay. Serial # 26986 and the neck was stamped Jan 1923. Hope that helps with something.
If anybody wants the pictures (including the date on the neck) for their files the link is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260182007938&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=016

I saw that one too, Dolf--identical to the one I bought a couple weeks ago on ebay, except for the neck. Maytbe a little better looking than my tenor, and went for slightly more than mine as well.



Also, a very nice looking Silver Rudy Wiedoeft tenor went about a month ago for over $500, and a decent lacquer 244 Tenor went for $301.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBX:IT&item=320179603416&_trksid=p3984.cALLBUY.m311.lVI

[jazzbug1]

The patent date of 1923 actually is on the neck of the mouthpiece, which clamped onto a corkless neck. This was a nice idea by Holton, but if the neck is dropped and even slightly mis-shapped (hey-I used to date Miss Shape), it is difficult to fit the mouthpiece back on. The tenor sax pictured is from the late 1920s.

[apolaine]

Was looking for a Conn, ended up buying a lovely Holton having played several instruments and chose the one that felt right.

Elkhorn on the bell, serial 124 xxx, which I thought put it at 1938 according to Dr. Rick's charts, but are these the ones you're saying are probably wrong? Also has 214 stamped above the serial - is that a model or patent number?

Not sure of the finish. Original lacquer showing some brass spots underneath, but has more of a bronze than brass tone to the lacquer. Nickel keywork. Lovingly, completely overhauled and restored by Bruno Waltersbacher in Germany (top of the line Selmer pads, etc.).

I'm still finding out about Holtons (its got great ergos and a really beautiful tone - really comparable to some of the Conns I tried). So any pointers would be good.

[geauxsax]

Elkhorn on the bell, serial 124 xxx, which I thought put it at 1938 according to Dr. Rick's charts, but are these the ones you're saying are probably wrong? Also has 214 stamped above the serial - is that a model or patent number?


Are you sure it isn't stamped "241" instead of "214"? That's a model that would possibly be consistent with your serial number.


BTW--Let's see some pics of the mighty Holton!!!

[apolaine]

Nope, definitely 214. Unless the 1 is something else - the stamp isn't that clear on that digit.

[soybean]

serial 124 xxx, which I thought put it at 1938 according to Dr. Rick's charts, but are these the ones you're saying are probably wrong?I think all the published lists are wrong. Congratulations on your Holton. Is it alto or tenor?

[apolaine]

Did I forget that crucial part? It's a tenor.

[geauxsax]

More Holton serial number registry info, with pics:

(As listed in "Conn Stencil Holton?" thread, this horn was sold on ebay. Any SOTW member now own this one?)

--Holton "The Special" alto
--serial number B 80XX
--relaq, obvious and stated in ebay ad--not sure what orig finish was
--went for US $355.00 6 MAR
--Made when Holton was still in Chicago, before move to Elkhorn
--Rolled tone holes (anyone ever seen these on a Conn stencil, assumiung that is what this horn is?)
--2 LH bell tone holes-NOT split
--Looks like horn has front High F, but not spatula-type that Holton had on some early horns, although hard to tell in pics provided.
--No good pics of pinky cluster, but kind of visible in LH palm key pic

5061

5062

5063

5064

5065

[fred12]

My Holton is a C Mel. matte silver plate. It has a second G# key just above the F# key by the lower stack. It also has another key by the right side keys, its pivot shaft runs up the horn and lifts the second highest pad while closing the 3rd highest pad. Maybe it's some sort of F or F# key, I have trouble getting up that high. Serial no. is 7806, low pitch. Kind of quiet, poor intonation and somewhat uncomfortable but it's fun to play. Does anyone have an idea when this old girl was born?

[bruce bailey]

It is for going between middle C#>D, C>D,and B>D. Handy.

[geauxsax]

My Holton is a C Mel. matte silver plate. It has a second G# key just above the F# key by the lower stack. It also has another key by the right side keys, its pivot shaft runs up the horn and lifts the second highest pad while closing the 3rd highest pad. Maybe it's some sort of F or F# key, I have trouble getting up that high. Serial no. is 7806, low pitch. Kind of quiet, poor intonation and somewhat uncomfortable but it's fun to play. Does anyone have an idea when this old girl was born?


Not sure Fred--by serial number lists, it would be between 1909-10, but many folks have discovered that the lists are off--for my Holton (in my signature), I figure the lists are about 11 years off (for example, I believe my horn to be from around 1928 vice 1917 as lists would suggest), but I'm not sure the margin of error remained a constant amount over the years, especially as sax popularity and production grew. One thing though, Holton moved from Chicago to Elkhorn, Wisconsin in 1918, so where your sax is stamped as being made can at least give you whether it is before or after that. As far as the intonation, several makers apparently struggled with intonation in their early models, and from what I gather, mouthpieces make a big difference. Some folks make the point that earlier saxes like larger chambered pieces, without large baffles. Right or wrong, I followed that line of thinking and bought a new Link HR STM 6*, and also a Rico Graftonite A-5 (couldn't beat the price!) for my tenor. Mine is a bit flat on high C (C3?), and slightly less on the palm keys, but nothing I can't deal with. The C-mel crowd can probably suggest something that can hopefully minimize intonation problems for you. Is your C-mel in good repair?
You outta post some pics of your Holton!

[jojosax]

My Holton is Rudy Wiedoeft model Bb soprano number 32975 I think from the lates 20's it was sold on ebay with a description saying an estimated date 1919 but I think this is wrong.

My sax has :
a front F/C key
a double hole on the lowC
a G# trill key
a highD trill key (I think, I do not play it)
it plays from low bb to high F

I don't know how to post photos but here is a link with some details.

http://www.saxofan.fr/topic3965.html?highlight=

hope this help

[Wilbur Weltklang]

Elkhorn on the bell, serial 124 xxx, which I thought put it at 1938 according to Dr. Rick's charts, but are these the ones you're saying are probably wrong? Also has 214 stamped above the serial - is that a model or patent number?


I have a Holton tenor with serial 116 xxx and has 213 stamped above the serial number.
Also has 'Professional' engraved above the 'Holton' on the bell.

Picked it up rather cheaply after a test blow against Yamaha's and Selmer.

[bruce bailey]

That sounds like the ones from the 1930s which should be pretty good.

[geauxsax]

More Holton serial number registry info (info and pics collected from expired ebay ad):

Holton Collegiate 577 Tenor
s/n 336XXX
lacquered brass w/ nickel keys
sold 9 Mar for US $375
notes: this axe looked nearly new in the pics--WOW

5180

5181

5182

5183

5184

[geauxsax]

More Holton info (make/year clues collected from ebay ad):

Holton 231 Alto ad, collected from 1942 publication:
Would a "241" be a tenor from the same timeframe?
5185

[soybean]

this axe looked nearly new in the pics--WOW
It sure does look like "new/old stock". A horn that somebody bought and put under the bed for 50 years. That might be like the horn Goodsax played in when he was growing up.

[soybean]

Yes, the 241 would be the tenor from the same era. Evidentally it was followed by the 243. The only difference i can see in the 243 is the left hand pinky stack. At some point Holton moved the bell holes to the right side.

[geauxsax]

Holton 241 Tenor sold for US $1200 on ebay. This is the highest price I've yet seen for a Holton. Is the market picking up for these too?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBTOX:IT&item=180225885763&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI

[bruce bailey]

I think so. Look at the soprano prices as they are up there. I am really surprised how good my altos are.

[sonofjabba]

Holton Bb Tenor Sax Silver Plate SN 26,XXX No Neck As I Bought it Condition. One of my many current project horns.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc200/sonofjabba/Horns/holton1001.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc200/sonofjabba/Horns/holton1002.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc200/sonofjabba/Horns/horngroup005.jpg

[geauxsax]

Anyone have any idea where a Holton "Revelation", sn 117XXX falls out in the whole scheme of Holtons? Not a Collegiate, not one on the 240 series, later than Rudy's, later than (at least my) Elkhorn. It actually looks a lot like my Elkhorn just from the pic anyway. Same neck, same octave key. I'll be honest, all the Holton body tubes look the same to me too. I personally haven't noticed any large bell/small bell differences througout the range. Any info welcome.
5891

5892

[billymiller]

I just finally got re-padded a Silver Holton Rudy Eb alto serial #368XX that has been sitting around for years waiting (begging?) for attention. I've been playing an old Silver Conn C-melody for years so I knew I was likely to enjoy this horn (barely playable).

Well worth the fix. I think these horns are under rated. Sweet tone, and certainly plays circles around my student model Leblanc "Vito" from my high school days in the 70's.

P.S. this is my first post but have "lurked" many a time. Thanks for the valuable info. and service you provide!

Cheers, Billy

[geauxsax]

All right, Billy--good to hear from you. The Rudy alto sounds great. You know we want some pics now!

[bruce bailey]

The Rudy horns really are a great horn. I just discover the Holtons this year and picked up 5, 4 altos and a C soprano. Yours is only a few hundred away for my silver one. I decided to keep 2 of the gold plated ones and sell a gold plated and silver plated one on ebay soon. They seem to play like a Conn with Martin keywork. Decent intonation and some nice extra keys.

[billymiller]

5? Was this an all in one batch deal?... A C soprano... you dog!!! I want it. I'm uploading photos of the Eb right now, coming soon. Can you still find C sop. reeds now? or will you just use it with a Bb mouthpiece?

[billymiller]

Horton pride indeed geauxsax.:D
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1311/aut0090gf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
this is a test... more coming.

[billymiller]

It worked... O.K. Here's more... (you can click on the image for a larger view)
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1480/aut0092ky4.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0092ky4.jpg)
Here are the extra keys, a G to G# trill and from what I gather from playing it, a high D to D# trill.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6918/aut0102wy8.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0102wy8.jpg)
This is the "button" G# key. Probably the only thing I'm having difficulty with about this horn right now but I will get used to it.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9079/aut0098hw5.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0098hw5.jpg)
Here's a photo of the Conn C-melody with the Holton Rudy Eb, (the C is a bit jealous now but I can tell they secretly like each other!). As you can see, they are just about the same height, but the C has a longer bell and neck. I'm using an old Brilhart 3* mouthpiece that seems to work great with it.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2253/aut0097wr0.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0097wr0.jpg)
Here's the Rudy logo for those looking for it... from what I've heard tho' I think he actually prefered Conns and Selmers. I'm thinking this must be from around 1928 from the thread. It sounds very warm. I've been playing mostly with an acoustic swing and blues group lately and the sound fits right in. Been jamming to an old Louie Jordan record with it all day. Fun!
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2599/aut0094yb5.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aut0094yb5.jpg)

Again, thanks for the info. You guys rock.

[soybean]

Here's the Rudy logo for those looking for it... from what I've heard tho' I think he actually prefered Conns and Selmers.Yeah, but Frankie Trumbauer played Holton his whole career.

[bruce bailey]

I got the C soprano here on SOTW. The Altos came from ebay or customers who had them. I am so far behind that I am selling the Rudys and one of the gold regular Holtons. I had this idea of each model of each brand in each finish but it got out of hand!

[billymiller]

Yeah, but Frankie Trumbauer played Holton his whole career.

I'm really enjoying this horn. It has a very similar sound and feel as the Conn. Thanks for the turn on to Frankie, I found a site that broadcasts Real Audio streams here http://www.redhotjazz.com/fto.html that you guys probably know about already. I had heard a little of Bix, but didn't know anything about "Tram". Or that he was who I may have been hearing. Very Cool.

Bruce, sounds like you did get a little carried away! :shock: You are gonna enjoy those horns. the C sop. sounds like a blast. I play trad. Irish on D wooden flutes as well, and that sop. would play most celtic keys (D, Em, G, Am) easily. Probably give you a klezmer/Irish weird crossover sound to try Celtic tunes with it, but it would be in key with the same fingering!

Cheers

[billymiller]

I can't afford it now, but give me a ring if you ever decide to unload the C sop. Bruce.
billymiller at swva dot net.

[BernieO]

Hi all.

1947 alto 232. serial No. 173XXX, original case and Holton mouthpiece.

The history of this one is it was bought for me by my parents for $50.00 in the mid sixties about a year after I started high school. The pads were a bit shot I think and I eventually broke a spring or two but not before it had been carted on a few camping trips into the blue mountains of NSW. It was borrowed by a 'friend' who hung it on a wall for a bit and then it sat in a cupboard until 2005 when I decided at the age of 52 to play the sax again and had it repadded. It's been three years of fun and I've just popped it in for a service.

What can I say as a 'very' amateur musician. It plays well, intonation spot on, big sound, more like a tenor in some respects, the action could be a little better especially coming down the octave from 'D' to 'C'. All in all a very nice instrument, particularly since I've owned it for around two thirds of its 60 years; and it's built like a tank!

If anyone is interested I'll post some pics when it is back from the service.

[geauxsax]

Hi all.

1947 alto 232. serial No. 173XXX, original case and Holton mouthpiece.

The history of this one is it was bought for me by my parents for $50.00 in the mid sixties about a year after I started high school. The pads were a bit shot I think and I eventually broke a spring or two but not before it had been carted on a few camping trips into the blue mountains of NSW. It was borrowed by a 'friend' who hung it on a wall for a bit and then it sat in a cupboard until 2005 when I decided at the age of 52 to play the sax again and had it repadded. It's been three years of fun and I've just popped it in for a service.

What can I say as a 'very' amateur musician. It plays well, intonation spot on, big sound, more like a tenor in some respects, the action could be a little better especially coming down the octave from 'D' to 'C'. All in all a very nice instrument, particularly since I've owned it for around two thirds of its 60 years; and it's built like a tank!

If anyone is interested I'll post some pics when it is back from the service.

Definitely post some pics Bernie, and great to hear about your Holton!

[masonmjs]

Anyone have any idea where a Holton "Revelation", sn 117XXX falls out in the whole scheme of Holtons? Not a Collegiate, not one on the 240 series, later than Rudy's, later than (at least my) Elkhorn. It actually looks a lot like my Elkhorn just from the pic anyway. Same neck, same octave key. I'll be honest, all the Holton body tubes look the same to me too. I personally haven't noticed any large bell/small bell differences througout the range. Any info welcome.
5891

5892


Hey geauxsax - did you ever find any information on this tenor ??, I noticed it is on Ebay now with a circa 1960 timeline, is that best guess or accurate info, it seems a mile away from the other dates for this serial number range I have been reading here (about mid-thirties for 118xxx).

If it's your horn on Ebay right now, I would appreciate as much information as you can give me regarding playing condition right now, I may well bid on it if I could get reliable info from a fellow SOTW member. Not much time left so I'm hoping you see this today/tonight.

Thanks
Mike

[geauxsax]

Mike,
I never did find anything about this sax, and it isn't mine. I just saw it on ebay the last time it was up. It didn't sell for the opening bid (like $250 or so). I think it's a good price on an old American tenor. Heck--stencils sell for more than that. I also paid more than that for my much older Elkhorn, and love it. The Revelation looks a lot like my Elkhorn, but with updated ergos.

[BernieO]

Back from the shop and good as new!

[Wilbur Weltklang]

Well due to being impressed with my '37 Holton tenor, I've been seeking an alto version to use as a work-horse over the 5 digit Selmer VI I have.
Finally scored this one for a knock-down $158.50. Stripped all the hardware off. Cleaned it up a bit and added a few corks here and there and Voila!! Plays beautifully and so similar to the VI it's incredible.

[soybean]

Thanks for the turn on to Frankie… I had heard a little of Bix, but didn't know anything about "Tram". Or that he was who I may have been hearing.Not to get too far off-topic, but since this is my thread ;), i can tell you that there is a really good three-CD set of Tram. I bought volume 2 it's just great. His solos on the Holton C-mel are little gems and there's also some great bass sax playing by Adrian Rollini. Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/Frank-Trumbauers-Legacy-American-1923-1929/dp/B000005DZE/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214697041&sr=1-9

[soybean]

Cover photo of Vol 3:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Tramvol3jpg.jpg

[petersaxplayer]

hi, i'm new to the saxophone. I just inherited a saxophone and i wanted to know what year was it made and if it's good. It says HOLTON and the only s/n i could find was this 036679 and it says JAPAN below that. So if you guys could help me i'd really appreciate it. Thanks!!

[Son of Bob]

Just to add some info to the compilation. I have owned 2 Holton saxes, a tenor and an alto, and both were virtually the same, so I'll list their features together. The alto is 31760 and the tenor is 26937.

silver plate (matte with shiny keys and an area on the bell where it says Frank Holton, Elkhorn, Wis.)
forked Eb
trill keys for G# and D#
NO extra vent key near low C
front F (no pearl there, sort of tear drop shaped)
Bell keys on opposite sides

The alto has its original mouthpiece (the kind with the tightening screw and no cork on the neck) in original condition. The mpc is marked "Pat. Applied for" and "Pat. Jan. 1923." It is metal coated with hard rubber. I assume the lig and cap are original, but they are unmarked.
The alto also has a tool marked Holton that is a screwdriver and pad-prick? spring tool?

I just got the alto, and haven't played it but once, but it has a nice tone and very workable ergonomics.

[soybean]

I just inherited a saxophone… It says HOLTON and the only s/n i could find was this 036679 and it says JAPAN below that.Sorry, i don't know anything about Japanese Holtons. As a guess, it's probably from the late 1960s or early 1970s. Not made by the famous USA Holton factory.

[soybean]

Plays beautifully and so similar to the VI it's incredible.Mark, are you still enjoying the Holton alto? Please tell us the serial number and model number. Interesting that you find it comparable to the Mk VI.

[jazzbug1]

I just bought a Holton Tenor (a rare Wiedoeft tenor) off Ebay. I will re-pad it and report on it. The pictures are excellent, with no wear even on the thumbrest. If it is like my alto, it will have the big sound of a Chu Berry Conn, with added brightness in the top end. There is a puzzler on Ebay, #170246839879, which looks like a C Melody. It is serial #26551, which according to my Holton documents, was built in the spring of 1928. Oddly, there is an old note with the horn dating it to 1923. The horn has the features of 1923, as by 1928 they had the high F key. This horn does nothave the alt. F. Furthermore, I have seen some Holtons from 1923-24 with dark green plastic key touches instead of the pearl. These green touches are present in the EBay photos, which further date the horn to 1923. I think the touches were originally black, but those early plastics deteriorated in color (in this case to green) and broke easily, as this specimen has a few touches missing. Holton was always trying to be different in their saxes. What makes this EBay listing crazy is that there is a starting price of $4800! It's worth $150. I suspect the serial # to be 16551 and not 26551. The bum rap given to Holtons has kept the price down so the knowlegeable few can buy great horns.

[bruce bailey]

The one for $4,800 (if it is the one in Florida) looks to be an alto. He claims it is sterling silver but is way off on the price. I think 1923 is the closer year. I got out my gold plated Rudy Alto to photo it to sell and it is really a nice horn. Holtons are much better than we all thought.

[jazzbug1]

On closer look, it looks altoish. I also see in the photos, a loose alt. F key and G# trill key laying on the accessory box. Maybe the serial # is correct, but the penciled in date is not. Holtons did NOT have alt. F in 1923. These non-Rudy altos usually sell for less than a C Melody. I Remember when C Melodys and Albert clarinets could be had for $10-15.00 only ten years ago where I live. I know of few players, so I guess they are falling into collections of people with a hoarding disorder, which is common amongst males over fifty, like some of us.

[bruce bailey]

Both of my non-Rudy altos have the front F but it is not a pearl and looks like a current Yana.

[soybean]

I just bought a Holton Tenor (a rare Wiedoeft tenor) off Ebay.So you're the one! I was watching that but didn't bid on it. Very interesting horn. Please report when you get 'er fixed up.

[bruce bailey]

I was watching that one too!

[geauxsax]

So you're the one! I was watching that but didn't bid on it. Very interesting horn. Please report when you get 'er fixed up.

Ditto! I had made up my mind to buy the next nice looking Rudy Tenor I saw on ebay, but managed to let this one get away. Nice price, and good on you, Jazzbug--I hope she plays as good as she looks!

[LaPorte]

Hi everybody,

I'm new here and got some good info from this site. The reconstruction of the Holton serial number list belongs to my historical interests, too.

Frank Holton began producing saxophones in Chicago (Revelation model) probably 1917 (Reference:Leblanc). The production in Elkhorn began spring (prob. April 1918; Ref.: Holton Loyalists). Here are the serial numbers from following early 'pre-Elkhorn' alto-saxophones, engraving:"Made by Frank Holton Co Chicago", I've documented:

# 639
# 759 (in my collection)
# 1189

Felix

[jazzbug1]

You have the very first Holton saxophones. Is the plating good, as I've seen many in the 5,000-10,000 range where the plating was very thin and worn in spots that weren't even touch zones. Please check your horns with a tuner. Let's see if the intonation is OK. Don't expect spot-on with early horns, but at least 20 cycles tolerance is OK. I'm curious, as being a big Holton fan (maybe because they are so cheap!) I'd like some feedback on your horns, as I have no experience with very early one. THANKS.

[jazzbug1]

I am expecting the Rudy tenor to arrive in a few days. I will re-pad, set it up, and see how it plays. I strongly suspect that it will equal my 1941 Conn 10M, in which case, the Conn, in top playing shape with 85% original lacquer, will go on Ebay. The 10M was played by a late friend who toured with Les Brown and the Mal Hallet bands in the 1940s.
I will then have all the Wiedoefts except the very rare baritone, which I have played, but it is not quite the match of my 1927 Conn "Chu Berry" model. I will save the $$ in my quest for a vitage sopranino. Then I will have all the horns I have ever lusted for, pass away out of a lack of challenge, and become a legend in my backyard.

[soybean]

Then I will have all the horns I have ever lusted for, pass away out of a lack of challenge, and become a legend in my backyard.LOL:):D

[soybean]

Frank Holton began producing saxophones in Chicago (Revelation model) probably 1917 (Reference:Leblanc). The production in Elkhorn began spring (prob. April 1918; Ref.:Holton Loyalists). Here are the serial numbers from following early 'pre-Elkhorn' alto-saxophones, engraving:"Made by Frank Holton Co Chicago", I've documented:

# 639
# 759 (in my collection)
# 1189Very interesting. Thanks for adding the numbers and welcome to Sax on the Web!

I had to search for Holton Loyalist. It's a website dedicated to… Holton. It seems to be primarily focused on brass, but there is a sax area. They are looking for old catalogs and photos. Jazzbug, you should send them some pics of your Rudys.:D

[LaPorte]

Originally Posted by jazzbug1:
You have the very first Holton saxophones. Is the plating good, as I've seen many in the 5,000-10,000 range where the plating was very thin and worn in spots that weren't even touch zones. Please check your horns with a tuner. Let's see if the intonation is OK. Don't expect spot-on with early horns, but at least 20 cycles tolerance is OK. I'm curious, as being a big Holton fan (maybe because they are so cheap!) I'd like some feedback on your horns, as I have no experience with very early one. THANKS.

Only the one with SN #759 is in my collection, the two others were listed on ebay recently (#1189) and one year ago (#639). The numbers could clearly be identified by the added Fotos.

My Chicago made Holton-alto needs professional overhaul including dent removal and post-resoldering. The silver plating is solid and 100%, even in touch zones. The only differences to the early Elkhorn-made ones are the following:

1. Engraving "Chicago" instead of "Elkhorn" (of course)
2. No mother-of-pearl inlays
3. Front-F key (surprising!), comparable to the Revelations from the later twenties

All other application is the same including the additional G/G# and C/D keys.

Felix

[jazzbug1]

I've never seen an early Holton with a front F key. They must have discontinued the idea soon after and then began adding it again in the mid 20s, unless it is a carefully soldered later addition, which is not hard to do. Does your early Holton have the C to D trill key protruding on the right near the side Bb and side C? Frankie Trumbauer preferred Holton. Rudy Wiedoeft preferred the Selmer, as it was a smaller bore and had much more of a concert sound. Selmer continued this practice until the Balanced Action of the mid 30s.

[LaPorte]

I've never seen an early Holton with a front F key. They must have discontinued the idea soon after and then began adding it again in the mid 20s, unless it is a carefully soldered later addition, which is not hard to do. Does your early Holton have the C to D trill key protruding on the right near the side Bb and side C? Frankie Trumbauer preferred Holton. Rudy Wiedoeft preferred the Selmer, as it was a smaller bore and had much more of a concert sound. Selmer continued this practice until the Balanced Action of the mid 30s.

You are right, the early Elkhorn-made Holton's don't have the front F Key as far as I could see. My early Chicago made Holton has this key and this was rather surprising to me. I'm shure it is original. I hope I can take a foto and get it here sometimes. It looks identical to the Front F mechanic of the later horns (similiar to clarinets, beginning ca. 1926).

Yes, my early Holton has this typical C to D trill key near the side keys you mentioned.

Thank you

Felix

Thank you, too giving us the only exact reference with your c-sopranosax (18319) which was shipped out 11-18-1924.
Counting from the beginning of 1918 (evt. late 1917) until the end of 1924 we have a medium annual output of nearly 2,650. My rating of the yearly production from 1918 to 1928 was ca. 3,000/year.

[LaPorte]

Very interesting. Thanks for adding the numbers and welcome to Sax on the Web!

Thank you for welcoming me on SOTW !:)

Felix

[LaPorte]

Here is a list of Holton-models from 1916 to 1940:

BEAUFORT **(stencil, Austrian made); ca. 1916/1917; rare): split bell, keygards with forged ends (looks like duck feet)

REVELATION-model, series Ia (Chicago 1917/18; rare): split bell, soldered toneholes, front F key, additional trill keys.

REVELATION-model, series Ib (Elkhorn, spring 1918 - ca. 1930/partly longer?):
Production continued in Elkhorn, Wisconsin, front F key from ca. 1926, early ones without front F key.

RUDY WIEDOEFT model (ca.1925/28 - 1930/31..) B and Bb left side, corkless neck, round g#-key with mother of pearl-inlay, additional low C vent-key. From the beginning thirties without the "Rudy Wiedoeft model"- engraving.

COLLEGIATE-series I* (1928/29/30?, rare) split bell, solid and bevelled (type: LaPorte, not Martin-style) soldered-on tone chimneys , L-shaped C#-G#-key
Partly the production was sold under the tradename "Beaufort American" Production ended 1929in LaPorte; continued in Elkhorn ca. 1930?. Some "Beaufort American's" were built by Conn!

REVELATION series II, (ca. 1931, very rare) split bell, engraving like Revelation I, new proportions, wider bore, new application, spatula keys like RUDY WIEDOEFT model, no front F, made in Elkhorn.

COLLEGIATE series IIa* (from beginning thirties..): B and Bb left side, Corpus like Revelation II, keys only the 'needed', no front F

REVELATION series III (ca. 1934/35), rare: B and Bb left side; additional engraving: "REVELATION" (to be continued..)

COLLEGIATE series IIb* ca.1935-1941, like IIa, including front F! (Tenor stencilled by Gretsch 15xxx, first digit dropped ?! - 115xxx)

RESO-TONE series 204 (1935-38; rare) Text of the original ad:

"This is a new Holton Reso-Tone Alto Saxophone, built upon new proportions and with new tonal quality, new mouthpipe, new octave key, new keygards and new thumb rest. A completely new instrument that will set new standard in saxophone construction and tone."

THE SPECIAL** (beginning forties; stencil, made in France; rare)

* means: the serial numbers partly follow a different line of numbers
** means: the serial numbers follow a completely different line of numbers

Felix

[bruce bailey]

I had one that was not like others. It was an alto in about the 37,000 series and it ws the same horn that Lyon & Healy sold under the Courturier name. These had the low C# lever hooked into the G# lever in an L shape. I think it would be from the 1928 era. It is possible that with the introduction of the Rudy models, they purchased some stenciled Holton Collegiate to add to the line.
The town where these were built by Courturier was LaPorte Indiana. Strange that your username is the same!!!

[soybean]

From the beginning thirties without the "Rudy Wiedoeft model"- engraving.This list is great. Are the later Wiedoeft models built differently (besides the lack of engraving)?

There are some other models. Alto 230 series (230, 231, 232) & Tenor 240 series (241, 242, etc.) I've also heard of a tenor model 475 and 204. At some point, the Holton name was used on Japanese made saxophones. I'm guessing this was in the late 1960s to the 1970s. If anyone has an original receipt or photo of one of these Holtons, please let us know.

[geauxsax]

This list is great. Are the later Wiedoeft models built differently (besides the lack of engraving)?

There are some other models. Alto 230 series (230, 231, 232) & Tenor 240 series (241, 242, etc.) I've also heard of a tenor model 475 and 204. At some point, the Holton name was used on Japanese made saxophones. I'm guessing this was in the late 1960s to the 1970s. If anyone has an original receipt or photo of one of these Holtons, please let us know.


What about the Collegiate--wasn't the tenor a model 566 or something. Collegiates really get beat up on the fourm, but what differences did they have from the 240 series (that seem to get fairly good press--one even sold for $1200 a few months ago)? Are the collegiates just old Elkhorns with updated keywork and lacquer?

PS--glad to see the Holton forum having some action!

[LaPorte]

I had one that was not like others. It was an alto in about the 37,000 series and it ws the same horn that Lyon & Healy sold under the Courturier name. These had the low C# lever hooked into the G# lever in an L shape. I think it would be from the 1928 era. It is possible that with the introduction of the Rudy models, they purchased some stenciled Holton Collegiate to add to the line.
The town where these were built by Courturier was LaPorte Indiana. Strange that your username is the same!!!

The model you describe belongs to the early Collegiate I, made in LaPorte. Here you give us a very good description of the characteristic L-shaped C#/G#-lever and I agree that your Alto saxophone was made in 1928. Thanks to the great researches of Steve Mumford (he spent many hours in the archives of LaPorte) we do know, that Frank Holton purchased the plant in LaPorte April 1928 from Lyon&Healy (former E.A.Couturier) and this was the 'birthday' of the first COLLEGIATE saxophone!
The engraving says: "COLLEGIATE * Made BY * Frank Holton&Co * Elkhorn * WIS.'. What it says is all true: Made by Frank Holton, he was the new owner of the production in LaPorte and Elkhorn WIS was the residence of his firm since 1918. So your Collegiate SN 37xxx is no stencil! My (LaPorte made) COLLEGIATE has the SN 39224 and was made probably 1929.

I think we have little chance to get more exact references like jazzbug1 gave us. What we could do imo. is to 'identify' (what I call) 'small' or 'approximative references'. That means e.g., we have a relatively exact date (here: April 1928) from a reliable source (Steve Mumford). What we have to do then is: to find an example (here: COLLEGIATE like described) with a relatively low serial number, as low as could be found. I think this applies especially to your Collegiate saxophone #37xxx, because its the lowest number, which I coud find until now.

Thank you, bruce bailey, for your informative postings to the subjects Lyon&Healy and Holton during the last years!

My username: Since I have my Lyon&Healy Couturier model
as my 'first' playing horn (alto), I can't stop researching the background of such great sounding horns, which came out of the LaPorte factory between 1922 and 1929. And this is part of the Holton history, too. Frank Holton (playing trombone) and Ernst Albert Couturier (great performer on cornet) were friends (Collegiate?!) together they created fantastic Horns (brass). Could the saxophone community accept that some of the best sounding saxophones were created by 'brass'-men?

Felix

[LaPorte]

This list is great. Are the later Wiedoeft models built differently (besides the lack of engraving)?

There are some other models. Alto 230 series (230, 231, 232) & Tenor 240 series (241, 242, etc.) I've also heard of a tenor model 475 and 204. At some point, the Holton name was used on Japanese made saxophones. I'm guessing this was in the late 1960s to the 1970s. If anyone has an original receipt or photo of one of these Holtons, please let us know.

After the contract with Rudy Wiedoeft has ended, the model was built without any changes or differences except the additional engraving. This is what I could see from good pictures of one alto saxophone with a SN in the 40-thousands. Sorry, I missed documentating that. I'm shure there will be another one which we could integrate in our historical research.

Originally my focus listing Holton models were the years 1917 until the beginning thirties, (which is sufficient for reconstructing the Holton serial numbers). Later I extended my list until the beginning 40-ies with the occurance of drawn instead of soldered toneholes (ca. 1940-1942). I've little knowlege of the later 'three-digit-models'. The first of them (201.. 204..) occured in the late thirties and I shall integrate them in the next update of the Holton model list. I feel that there is some additional info needed, before I can do this.

Felix

[LaPorte]

Don't know how this ":D" could be happened at the beginning of my posting #84?! I did not want to place it there and I couldn't remove it by editing! :? Oh, possibly I got the wrong rubric, when I choosed it for my last sentence. Sorry, I'm afraid that cannot be changed! :cry: Does anyone know help?

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Wow, great story about LaPorte! I have 2 L&H altos that look exactly like the Holton 37,xxx that I had:
Gold plated:http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/lhaltog/show/
Silver plated:http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/lhaltos/show/
Notice the palm keys are interlocking where the Eb also opens the D and the F opens all three. The gold one has the double hinged neck key. These are really undervalued horns. I think I paid $450 for the gold and about $250 for the silver. Some day I may get them cleaned and working!

[bruce bailey]

Forgot to add a few photos comparing a "standard" Holton with a Rudy:
Standard burnished gold plate:http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtongold/show/
Rudy burnished gold Plate: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtonrudygold/show/

[jazzbug1]

Here are some changes I have observed in Holtons:
1. My Rudy C melody (26000) is among the first, as they neatly installed a "do-nut" inside the low C tone hole to lessen it's size to allow for that little breather key. Furthermore, it has bumper posts under the palm keys. The do-nut was an indication that the very first Rudys from the Sping of 1928 were standard Holtons off the regular production. The bumper posts disappeared soon after, with the stops placed on the bottom of the palm keys, as with the Conns.
2. I have seen Rudys on EBay up to about #37000, which might be around 1931-32, when it appears the production stopped. Rudy was no longer as famous and the horns cost more.
3. That nifty high C-D trill key continued from the teens until the early 30s.
4. The low C breather key continued on regular Holtons for another year or so, as perhaps there were Rudy shells to be used up and the tone holes for the breather key were alreay on the horns.
5. I have seen pictures on EBay of late 30s tenors and altos with rolled tone holes and a very beautifully crafted cover on the low B-Bb keys. These must be impressive horns and I would love to try one. They rarely come up, as production must have been low once the Conn 10M and 6M became so dominant.
6. Side note: I restored a Courtier C Melody and it was a beautiful sounding horn, sounding much like my Rudy. Courtier made many horns for Wurlitzer and they can be spotted by looking at the joint rings on the bow: the rings have 3 or more decorative grooves on them. These are great players. I'd love to try a Coutier tenor or alto.

[LaPorte]

Two additions:

1. I've checked the Chicago made Holton #1189. It has the front F key as well as my #759.

2. 'Rudy Wiedoft model' without corresponding engraving. Feb 20, 2008 I've noted from ebay item 300 200 235 651: This alto saxophone is a Rudy Wiedoeft model in every detail except engraving. SN# Eb*40145*LP. Sorry, no fotos available anymore.

Felix

[jazzbug1]

40,000 is only a few thousand past the last Rudy I have seen, so that makes sense. Probably a third or half of the altos sold by Holton in 1928-31 were Rudys, as they are very common. They must have made many chassis with the low C breather key, which were then sold as regular Holtons. Sort of like the Conns changing from the "Chu Berry" to the 6M, which took 3 years of horns with some features of each. The C melodys, tenors, and baritone Rudy models are very unusual. Its to our advantage that their reputation is undeservedly low, as these are great horns at a bargain price. My Wiedoeft alto is noticeably more brilliant than a comparable Conn and my C melody has a beautiful resonance. You can hear the C on You Tube. Just put in "jazzbug1"

[LaPorte]

More Holton serial number registry info, with pics:

(As listed in "Conn Stencil Holton?" thread, this horn was sold on ebay. Any SOTW member now own this one?)

Yes. This one is with me now.

Engraving: "The Special" * HOLTON * CHICAGO * USA
SN #B8031, written beneath low D

I gave her new pads in the left hand region and after some adjustments I've let her choose a mouthpiece. She decided for a Vito II LeBlanc (reed:Vandoren Java 2,5), a mpc of little value. With it she really sings, (better than together with a Yana, Link, Vandoren, Brilhart etc.). The tone is beautiful, rich, versatile with easy blowing altissimo, good intonation, easy to play, 'modern' feeling.

Who made the alto? When was it made? Why did Holton sell a stencil? Why does it say Chicago instead of Elkhorn? I hope I find the time to answer tomorrow, otherwise beginning September.

Felix

[soybean]

Who made the alto? When was it made? Why did Holton sell a stencil? Why does it say Chicago instead of Elkhorn? I hope I find the time to answer tomorrow, otherwise beginning September.Thanks Felix for all the information you have added to this Holton thread. I am actually quite happy with how this has progressed. We are going to have the basis for making an accurate chart of Holton serial numbers with approximate years and features.:)

[jazzbug1]

I see a new listing on EBay for a Rudy model C Melody (these are quite rare) and the serial # is even earlier than mine. It is #25444, so in the Spring of 1928 (when the model was introduced) this horn was put together. I would think that this one and mine might have been made a month earlier, as I imagine the serial number assignment to the chassis would have a lead time of a few weeks (?) until the horn is shipped. Here is a serial number with some approximate documentation, as my brochure introducing the Rudy model is printed "March, 1928".

[geauxsax]

Added to serial number registry:

Big Holton Bari spied on ebay, model 270 I believe (is that contemporary to 230 altos and 240 tenors?)

sn 130,6XX

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOLTON-Silver-BAIRTONE-SAXOPHONE-W-CASE_W0QQitemZ270268000432QQihZ017QQcategoryZ16233 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[hakukani]

I just rescued from the bowels of band storage a, Holton Cmel in Matte silver, made in Elkhorn, Wis. with a serial 13,xxx. It has split bell keys, the two trill keys, and no extra vent by the C#, nor a front F. It appears to be the original case, but the case is missing a handle.

It does have what appears to be the original mouthpiece with a heavy metal mp cap and endcap, and a reed box with Gold Crown reeds, marked in pen as C melody sax Bb tenor sax. There are the remains of one of the reeds in the box (a corner is chopped off). The back of the reed says 'This is a Genuine Gold Crown Reed', with an indecipherable set of text beneath. The reed is about an Eighth inch longer than an alto reed, and a bit shorter than a modern tenor reed.

I gave it a toot, and it plays pretty well, with a somewhat thin tone. The mouthpiece fits, but there is no cork. It appears someone wrapped the neck with beeswaxed line or perhaps it's dental floss, and the key with the bis key is missing a spring.

[geauxsax]

I just rescued from the bowels of band storage a, Holton Cmel in Matte silver, made in Elkhorn, Wis. with a serial 13,xxx. It has split bell keys, the two trill keys, and no extra vent by the C#, nor a front F. It appears to be the original case, but the case is missing a handle.

It does have what appears to be the original mouthpiece with a heavy metal mp cap and endcap, and a reed box with Gold Crown reeds, marked in pen as C melody sax Bb tenor sax. There are the remains of one of the reeds in the box (a corner is chopped off). The back of the reed says 'This is a Genuine Gold Crown Reed', with an indecipherable set of text beneath. The reed is about an Eighth inch longer than an alto reed, and a bit shorter than a modern tenor reed.

I gave it a toot, and it plays pretty well, with a somewhat thin tone. The mouthpiece fits, but there is no cork. It appears someone wrapped the neck with beeswaxed line or perhaps it's dental floss, and the key with the bis key is missing a spring.


All right, Hak--welcome to Holtonland!

[hakukani]

All right, Hak--welcome to Holtonland!

Did I mention there are NO dents or dings?:)

[soybean]

Did I mention there are NO dents or dings?:)No dents or dings is actually a lot more common than you think with C-mels. Most of them never left the parlor! The thin sound might be the small C-mel bore or the mouthpiece. Those vintage pieces were pretty soft sounding in most cases. Try it with a modern alto piece or tenor piece pushed all the way on the cork (or floss in your case). On my Holton C-mel, an alto mouthpiece works the best. However, on most of the C-melody saxes I've played, a tenor mpc works better.

[soybean]

There's a Holton alto on eBay now with a ridiculous price of $2800. It will never sell it at that price, but there is an interesting letter from the Holton company in the case. The seller says it's from 1923, but i'm not convinced. I emailed them for more information, but got a terse reply. This seems like a later alto… possibly 1925 or 26. serial #26551.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170255544428&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=007

[bruce bailey]

He had it up before at $4,800 BIN. Since he is nearby, I contacted him and he insisted that it is sterling silver. It is worth about $300 as-is.

[soybean]

Bruce, that is hilarious. People like that deserve to pay extra ebay "stupidity" fees. Does he actually think it is solid silver?

If you find yourself walking by the shop, see if he'll let you have a look at that letter in the case. It may have some dating information. However, if it's just a form letter, it probably won't be much help.

[mad-dog]

Bruce, that is hilarious. People like that deserve to pay extra ebay "stupidity" fees. Does he actually think it is solid silver?



But it comes with a "note tightening tool"! I need one of those. Maybe then I can get a better price for the similar Holton alto (in better shape than this one) that I bought for $55.

[LaPorte]

I see a new listing on EBay for a Rudy model C Melody (these are quite rare) and the serial # is even earlier than mine. It is #25444, so in the Spring of 1928 (when the model was introduced) this horn was put together. I would think that this one and mine might have been made a month earlier, as I imagine the serial number assignment to the chassis would have a lead time of a few weeks (?) until the horn is shipped. Here is a serial number with some approximate documentation, as my brochure introducing the Rudy model is printed "March, 1928".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce bailey View Post
"I had one that was not like others. It was an alto in about the 37,000 series ... I think it would be from the 1928 era. ..."

I think we need to have a closer look at the serials of the mid and late twenties. I begin with some serial numbers currently available of the Wiedoeft model:

C-mel.
16251 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft' model
20058 (!) (centrostudimusicali.it)
20xxx (!) (I try to confirm this by e-mail contact with the owner)
25444
26648

Soprano
32938
34xxx
34995
36077

Alto
34085
34384
34765
34996
35210
35418
35664
35814
35947
36480
36xxx
36979
37xxx
37090
37172
38475

Tenor
32704 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft'
34507
38xxx

Bariton
34610
34667

All numbers of the C-melody's (Rudy Wiedoeft!) begin with a "2", all other begin with a "3". My conclusion: We have to differenciate between C-melody and the rest of the Wiedoeft-family! Consider that the C-melody's listed above have bumper posts under the LH palm keys, which generally disappeared in the mid-twentys.

Felix

[soybean]

Felix this is valuable new information. I feel like we may be on the way to cracking the code! By the way, my C-melody is 22051 (not a Wiedoeft) and has the bumper post.

From your list we can see that the second number is usually an even number, but not always since there is a 5 and a 7.


[posted next day]

Well, it was nice while it lasted. A Holton alto just showed up on ebay with the serial 23648. So most of the numbers starting with a 2 are C-melody saxes, but not all. The mystery continues…

photos of the alto in question.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/3f2e_3.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/2e90_3.jpg



http://cgi.ebay.com/1920s-Frank-Holton-Alto-Saxophone-Satin-Finish_W0QQitemZ330268900744QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em330268900744&_trkparms=39%3A1|66%3A3|65%3A10|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[LaPorte]

Well, it was nice while it lasted. A Holton alto just showed up on ebay with the serial 23648. So most of the numbers starting with a 2 are C-melody saxes, but not all. The mystery continues…

The alto shown here is a Revelation model, no Wiedoeft. Holton started with the Revelation 1917 in Chicago with SN# 1, from spring 1918 in Elkhorn with a Number >ca.1,200.

Shure, there could be a R.Wiedoeft alto with a SN beginning with a 2 (possibly late 2x,xxx) and a R.W. C-melody beginning with a 3. That wouldn't seriously question my conclusion, which says that the R.W. C-melody was introduced significantly earlier than the rest of the Rudy Wiedoeft line. So bruce bailey could be right stating that a SN# 37xxx was made in 1928 and jazzbug1 could be right too when he claims that the R.W.model was introduced spring 1928, except the C-melody (which obviously was introduced about 3 years earlier)!

The Revelation model is not considered here.

Felix

[soybean]

Oh, I see. I thought you were saying that all the Holton C-melody started with a 2. So the Wiedoeft saxes had their own set of serial numbers?

[LaPorte]

Oh, I see. I thought you were saying that all the Holton C-melody started with a 2. So the Wiedoeft saxes had their own set of serial numbers?

Revelation, Wiedoeft model and CollegiateI had the same or a common set of serial numbers except very, very rare saxphones (CollegiateI) which were stamped by the Lyon&Healy company just when the production in LaPorte was sold to Frank Holton April 1928. These numbers could be recognised by a six digit 202xxx, written in a straight line, not in an arc! CollegiateII started with an own set of numbers, later (ca.1931/32) they were integrated in the main line of saxophone serial numbers. I'll come back to this topic.

Felix

[LaPorte]

except very, very rare saxphones which were stamped by the Lyon&Healy company just when the production was sold to Frank Holton April 1928. These numbers could be recognised by a six digit 202xxx, written in a straight line, not in an arc!

Here it is (coincidence?!):

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-Bb-COLLEGIATE-SOPRANO-SAX-BY-FRANK-HOLTON-LOOK_W0QQitemZ180285445680QQihZ008QQcategoryZ16203 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

A real rare find and reference too (SN#201849 for dating the Lyon&Healy SN##)!

made by Frank Holton ca. April 1928 in LaPorte, application and serial number: Lyon &Healy, the saxophone was originally created by Ernst Albert Couturier!

Felix

[bruce bailey]

I just sold a L&H soprano just like that and the serial number was in about the same range. I think it was within 50 numbers. It had all the extra keys like the Holton. Should be a good horn.
I just finished my Holton C soprano keyed to high F and so far I would say it is the best C soprano I have ever played. A bit flat on B2 and C2 but not really any worse than any other 20s horn. I am selling off several Holtons and was going to include it but I think I will hang on to it for a while!!!

[LaPorte]

I just sold a L&H soprano just like that and the serial number was in about the same range.

Right, there is no difference except the engraving. Additional info: After purchasing the Lyon&Healy plant in LaPorte by Fank Holton the production of saxophones under the Lyon&Healy brand didn't stop. The output was indeed higher than Holton's 'Collegiate', a real curiosity! The L&H numbers went until 203xxx (ca. 40xxx on the Collegiate's) when the doors were closed forever in 1929.

So we have a relatively small period of time the LaPorte made Collegiates were built. Their serial numbers (Holton-line!) give important indications for the Holton serial number reconstruction. On these (and several other) grounds (e.g.) a R.W. C-melody with a number early or mid 20xxx can't be made in 1928. The earliest ones were made ca. 1925 based on the C-soprano reference from jazzbug 1.

It had all the extra keys like the Holton.

'Extra keys' on LaPorte made saxophones?

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Extra keys would be the L shaped G#>C# pinky and the little tangs under the palm keys to connect them. The Eb opens the D, the F opens the Eb.

[soybean]

Bruce, please post photos of the C soprano if you have some.

[bruce bailey]

Give me a few weeks.....kind of behind here with school starting.

[soybean]

No pressure, man. Just curious.

[bruce bailey]

I finally opened up some cases and got the serial numbers of Holtons I now have. There was the Courturier one I sold in the 37,000 range plus the following:
C soprano to high F......16741
Satin Gold Alto............20395
Burnished Gold Alto......27096
Burnished Gold Rudy Alto 38475 R

The Altos all have the usual extra keys. Only the Rudy has the extra low C pad and tunable neck. Everything except the C soprano is for sale.

[LaPorte]

I've adapted the SN# of the 'Rudy' to the list above. Thank you, bruce bailey!

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Notice how the altos are in the 20,xxx range.

[LaPorte]

Who made the alto? When was it made? Why did Holton sell a stencil? Why does it say Chicago instead of Elkhorn?

I owe you the answers.

1. The saxophone was made by Couesnon, which can undoubtfully be recognised by a special design of the joint rings and some more details.

2. The catalogue "Manufacture Generale d'instrument de musique COUESNON. Catalogue illustre 1934, Paris 1934." distinguishes 4 models (see the corresponding thread!): A,B,C and Monopole/Conservatoire. Each model had probably his own set of numbers. Supposing a yearly output of 1,000 per year and model a possible year of manufacture is around 1942. This would correspond to the layout of the mechanic and design. This saxophone is a "B"-model as the SN# begins with this letter.

My answers 3. and 4. are more or less speculative. Anyone interested?

Felix

[LaPorte]

Notice how the altos are in the 20,xxx range.

Your altos are Revelation model's? Contrary to the Rudy Wiedoeft's they were not limited to a certain range of numbers.

I'll soon begin a list of LaPorte made CollegiateI. I think this would be instructive, too.

Felix

[soybean]

1. The saxophon was made by CouesnonThat's interesting. There was a Holton/Couesnon connection! Please tell us more. I have a Couesnon alto that i like very much. There was also a Couesnon/Yamaha connection that i can discuss, but it's off topic here.

[bruce bailey]

Both of those non-Rudy altos were the standard opposing bell key models.

[LaPorte]

Both of those non-Rudy altos were the standard opposing bell key models.

The 'standard opposing bell key model' is the Revelation (Ref.: Ads from the mid twenties), which was the main professional series, later (thirties) with bell keys on the left side. Collegiate series (I: LaPorte made with opposite bell keys, II: Elkhorn made, bell keys left side, completely different saxophones) were second line, imo high quality horns, too.

I've added a SN 34507 (tenor) to the Wiedoeft list.

Felix

[geauxsax]

The 'standard opposing bell key model' is the Revelation (Ref.: Ads from the mid twenties), which was the main professional series, later (thirties) with bell keys on the left side. Collegiate series (I: LaPorte made with opposite bell keys, II: Elkhorn made, bell keys left side, completely different saxophones) were second line, imo high quality horns, too.

I've added a SN 34507 (tenor) to the Wiedoeft list.

Felix

Check out some of the saxes on holtonloyalist.com:

http://www.holtonloyalist.com/saxophones.htm

Of note, the bottom two tenors: The middle one (sn 21XXX) has the spatula front high F. It also has the "extra keys".

The bottom one (no front high F), sn 31XXX is very similar (but not identical) to my horn. Note also, that is is a Collegiate with split bell keys-also claiming to be the earliest that the site has seen--I don't doubt that. Additionally, check out the different shapes in the RH pinky key cluster--they are always different between front F horns and non Front F. (The LH pinky cluster has been modified--it must have had the pearl G too). Lastly, the plam keys are different: Long and flat for non-front F, but further out from the body and rounder finger pads on front F models. I also believe the octave keys were different too--teardrop on front F models, but shaped around the thumb button on non-F models.

Bottom line: even if they weren't marking them as such, Holton was making two different models during the 20XXX-39XXX range. Is that Collegiate in fact a LaPorte horn? It isn't marked as such--it says Elkhorn like all the rest (post-Chicago of course).

[LaPorte]

Note also, that is is a Collegiate with split bell keys...
Is that Collegiate in fact a LaPorte horn? It isn't marked as such--it says Elkhorn like all the rest (post-Chicago of course).

Yes, it is. The Collegiate I (split bell keys, made in LaPorte) tells the location of the residence of the Frank Holton Company, not the location of the factory. This is usual practice, the corresponding Lyon&Healy saxophones, which came from the LaPorte factory too, are marked 'Chicago', cause this was the residence of Lyon&Healy. "Made by * Couturier * LaPorte * IND" is engraved on the saxophones of the original founder: Ernst Albert Couturier. The E.A. Couturier Band Instrument Company (residence and factory in LaPorte!) began building saxophones in August 1922. Oct.4, 1923 the company went into receivership. Lyon&Healy purchased the company 1924. The factory was taken over by Frank Holton April 1928.

The saxophones built by Couturier, later by Lyon&Healy and at last by Frank Holton (Collegiate I) are essentially the same, but different from all Elkhorn made ones as they have different bore, different conical form, thick bevelled toneholes etc. and different tone, nothing compares!. The only difference within the LaPorte made saxophones is the application (keywork), which was changed by L&H 1925 and slightly 1926 and a patented modification of the octave key introduced 1927.

SN# 31802 is indeed "the earliest reference" I've seen on a Collegiate I saxophone* made by Frank Holton. The year of production is (spring) 1928, not 1918 as supposed by the author. This SN is valuable information for our SN# reconstruction. It corresponds very well with our understanding of the Rudy Wiedoeft model. The earliest SN in the list above (R.W. except c-melody) is 32938!

See also my posting #84.

Thank you for the info!

Felix

*Forgotten to tell: The Elkhorn made Collegiate's (Collegiate II) have partly lower serial numbers (my CollegiateII is in the 19xxx range). But these follow an own set of numbers, until 1931. Since then all Holton serial numbers had one set of numbers, woodwind and brass!

[LaPorte]

I've edited my last posting to make it more precise.

... until 1931. Since then all Holton serial numbers had one set of numbers, woodwind and brass!

As far as I know this point is not yet discussed.

Felix

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140266866237&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting
SN#34384, added to the R.W.-list.

Felix

[LaPorte]

That's interesting. There was a Holton/Couesnon connection! Please tell us more.
Probably Holton did not ever sell stencils. "We build no instruments of this kind as every horn made here (Elkhorn) is engraved 'Made by Frank Holton&Co' "...from "A trip through The Holton Factory", page 23. This seems to be true as I couldn't find any Holton stencil until now. Ca. two years ago I found a Bb soprano without any engraving, obviously made by Holton. The "Beaufort American" (ca. 1930) was made by Holton, but that was no stencil either as B.A. was a trademark Holton used together with C.G. Conn, based in Chicago.
Vice versa we have two references, that Holton put his Name (without 'made by')on saxophones, that are built by another company:

1. The "Beaufort" model, ca 1916/17. This one has nothing to do with the 'Beaufort American'!
this was obviously made in France. Further researches showed close similiaritys to the Couesnon saxes of that time.

2. "The special" made probably in the beginning forties. Made by Couesnon.

What could be the reason for the Holton company to sell these stencils?
This only makes sense, when demand is higher then supply. In case of Holton this could be reckoned for the time 1916/17 (Beaufort model) before he had completed tooling to produce own saxophones, then beginning year 1918, when he transferred his company from Chicago to Elkhorn WIS and at last when he changed production using new machines at the beginning forties, so "The Special" might have filled the gap.

Why does "The Special" say 'Chicago' instead of Elkhorn?
I feel that my language is rather limited and my dictionary poor to say correctly what I mean. I try it later.

Felix

[bruce bailey]

What about those curved sopranos made in Austria that appear on ebay at times?

[LaPorte]

Do you mean curved sopranos with the Holton logo put on them?

Felix

[bruce bailey]

There were some that said Holton and maybe "European" or "Imported" on them . No pearls and pretty basic. I do remember Austria though.

[bruce bailey]

Soybean, here are the photos of the C Soprano you requested. Sorry about the quality as I was getting some altos done and hurried these along:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtoncsop/show/
Pretty nice horn even though the pads are old but sealing well. Great sound, a little flat on Bb2 up to C#2 but no worse than any vintage sax of the time. So far it is the best C soprano I have owned but I have only had 5 over the years.

[soybean]

Sorry about the qualityBruce, those photos look great! No problem with quality at all. I love the small size of the C soprano. Everything is cute on it without being tiny like a sopranino. Holton had some pretty great craftsmen to build something like that.

[LaPorte]

NEW REVELATION added to the model list #80, page 4.

Felix

[LaPorte]

I just bought a Holton Tenor (a rare Wiedoeft tenor) off Ebay.

To confirm my researches, please tell me the exact outside diameter of the neck tenon from the WIEDOEFT tenor. @GEAUXSAX: please tell me the corresponding diameter of your Holton Tenor (NEW REVELATION), too.

Thank you.

Felix

[geauxsax]

Sorry for the delay, but I had trouble finding a suitable measuring tool (just moved in and everythng is in boxes.) Roughly though, it is approximately 30.5 to 31 mm.

Update: Just got something accurate to measure with--the tenon is right at 31mm for the outside diameter.

[LaPorte]

Thank you, geauxsax!

Felix

[geauxsax]

Here is a list of Holton-models from 1916 to 1940:

BEAUFORT **(stencil, made by Couesnon; ca. 1916/1917; rare): split bell, keygards with forged ends (looks like duck feet)

REVELATION-model, series I (Chicago 1917/18; rare): split bell, soldered toneholes, front F key, additional trill keys.

REVELATION-model, series I (Elkhorn, spring 1918 - ca. 1930):
Production continued in Elkhorn, Wisconsin, front F key from ca. 1926, early ones without front F key.

RUDY WIEDOEFT model (ca.1928-1930..) B and Bb left side, special tenon for the mouthpiece, round g#-key with mother of pearl-inlay, additional low C vent-key. From the beginning thirties without the "Rudy Wiedoeft model"- engraving.

COLLEGIATE-series I* (1928/29, rare) split bell, solid and bevelled (type: LaPorte, not Martin-style) soldered-on tone chimneys , L-shaped C#-G#-key
Partly the production was sold under the tradename "Beaufort American" Production ended 1929/1930. Some "Beaufort American's" were built by Conn!

NEW REVELATION, professional series, (ca. 1930, very rare) split bell, engraving like Revelation I, new application, spatula keys like RUDY WIEDOEFT model, no front F, made in Elkhorn.

COLLEGIATE series II* (from beginning thirties..): B and Bb left side, Corpus like Revelation, keys only the 'needed', no front F

RESO-TONE (1937; rare) Text of the original ad:

"This is a new Holton Reso-Tone Alto Saxophone, built upon new proportions and with new tonal quality, new mouthpipe, new octave key, new keygards and new thumb rest. A completely new instrument that will set new standard in saxophone construction and tone."

THE SPECIAL** (beginning forties; stencil made by Couesnon, France; rare)

I have compiled this list in german and translated it for SOTW. Please let me know, if you have additional model-info or find mistakes (including bad english?)

* means: the serial numbers partly follow a different line of numbers
** means: the serial numbers follow a completely different line of numbers


Felix

Felix,
This is a great list. Any idea how the (fairly well received, given that a silver 241 sold for $1200 a few months back) 240 series tenors/230 series altos, etc (can't remember the bari number series--270???, or sopranos fit in, with regard to changes? Were they all new saxophones, or just progressive updates on the older models?

Also, what about the later Collegiates? I believe the tenors were marked as model 566. Not sure about the altos, etc. Were these made at the same time as the 240 series horns and intended to be student models? I know there are folks out there quite happy with their Collegiates, and their body and keywork looks fairly similar to older Holtons--maybe they were updated Revelations, in the same way that Buescher basically used modified True Tones as lesser models while making the 400 T&C as well as Aristocrats (I'm just speculating though--any thoughts?)

Update: Sorry--you answered some of my questions earlier I guess--I just missed/forgot some earlier posts. Anway, I was struck by something you mentioned: Did you say that Holton changed from soldered to drawn tone holes? If so, approximately when, and what models? I had never noticed (but then, I don't own any later Holtons either).

[jazzbug1]

Sorry-- Missed your post on the tenon for the Rudy tenor. Will answer tomorrow. I bought on EBay ($300) a burnished gold C melody. It has engraving all over the bell and even INSIDE the bell. I saw an alto once like this. It also has that rare combination of the front F and bar G# keys. It just arrived and I have never seen such a pristine horn. It even has the gold-plated cap and ligature with the original metal/resin Holton mouthpiece. There is not a scratch or dent on the horn. Let me guess... "A wealthy doctor in Chicago bought this for little junior's 16th birthday. Junior ran off to California with a flapper and was never seen again. The family saved the horn, but alas, junior never returned. so...." I had planned to rebuild and sell this on EBay, as why would I want a Rudy gold and silver model and a gold C Melody with deluxe engraving?... H-m-m.

[geauxsax]

Jazzbug,
That C mel sounds like Bruce's alto (since sold to Connie)---Gold with extra engraving, Bar G#, and front F. We've got to see some pics!

[soybean]

I bought on EBay ($300) a burnished gold C melody. … …I had planned to rebuild and sell this on EBay, …I almost bought that horn. If you do decide to sell it, I call "dibs"!

Then, all i need is a flapper to run away with.

[soybean]

Here is a list of Holton-models from 1916 to 1940:


I'm glad that you are updating this list as new information becomes available. A few comments;


Has anyone here seen (or have photo of) a Holton Reso-tone? I wonder if this is the prototype for the later 230/40 series or if it is a different design. There are plenty of reso-tone plastic clarinets but these seem to have nothing to do with Holton.
ˆ
Would my C-melody (220XX) be considered a Revelation series?

Maybe we can call the Revelation made in Chicago I-a and those made in Elkhorn I-b. Or just series I and series II.
ˆ
Is the Special model the same as a Couesnon Monopole (pro horn) or is it an intermediate model?
ˆ
I'm hope you will expand the list to include 230-3 and 240-3 models (1950s). :D

[jazzbug1]

I am so computer ignorant, that I don't know how to send pictures to this website.Besides, I ran out of flash powder for my camera. I will try to do this after it is re-built. Hey guys--Get this--- My wife said "KEEP IT!"

[bruce bailey]

Sign up for a flickr free account. It is easy to download up to 200 photos and you can group them in tags. Then just put a link here to the photos and dial-up users won't complain about slow loading of the threads due to the photos.

[bruce bailey]

Does your engraving look like this? I think it is factory but you never know!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtongold/show/

[soybean]

Yes, that's how i remember the engraving. Jazzbug can you confirm?

[LaPorte]

Felix,
This is a great list. Any idea how the (fairly well received, given that a silver 241 sold for $1200 a few months back) 240 series tenors/230 series altos, etc (can't remember the bari number series--270???, or sopranos fit in, with regard to changes? Were they all new saxophones, or just progressive updates on the older models?

Also, what about the later Collegiates? I believe the tenors were marked as model 566. Not sure about the altos, etc. Were these made at the same time as the 240 series horns and intended to be student models? I know there are folks out there quite happy with their Collegiates, and their body and keywork looks fairly similar to older Holtons--maybe they were updated Revelations, in the same way that Buescher basically used modified True Tones as lesser models while making the 400 T&C as well as Aristocrats (I'm just speculating though--any thoughts?)

Update: Sorry--you answered some of my questions earlier I guess--I just missed/forgot some earlier posts. Anway, I was struck by something you mentioned: Did you say that Holton changed from soldered to drawn tone holes? If so, approximately when, and what models? I had never noticed (but then, I don't own any later Holtons either).


I´m no expert concerning the 230, 240, 566 etc. models. I call them 'three digit models', which is not quite correct, as the model names (Revelation, not written on the horns; Collegiate) lasted on. But it seems to be a practical way of classification. I´ve documented information and pictures from the 201, 204 and 270 (bariton) which came out in the thirties. I look up the serial numbers next week and post them here. Updates or new saxophones: Sorry, I have n't examined the correlation between model numbers and modification.

What I can see from internet reviews the later Holtons (including Collegiates) are generally good horns.

I think the relation between Revelation and Collegiates of the late twenties and early thirties are just as you describe. Your Revelation II tenor and my Collegiate II alto ( both 1930) are like brother and sister. I would like to tell more details later, when I'm able to post pictures (see new posting of jazzbug1, he describes my issues!) :?

Drawn toneholes: See good and detailed pictures from e.g. a 566. You will find the sharp rims and the smooth base of tonechimneys on the bell. What I could get from serial numbers the change in production could be assumed for the early forties (some of the saxophone family earlier, some later).

Felix

[LaPorte]

I'm glad that you are updating this list as new information becomes available. A few comments;


Has anyone here seen (or have photo of) a Holton Reso-tone? I wonder if this is the prototype for the later 230/40 series or if it is a different design. There are plenty of reso-tone plastic clarinets but these seem to have nothing to do with Holton.
ˆ
Would my C-melody (220XX) be considered a Revelation series?

Maybe we can call the Revelation made in Chicago I-a and those made in Elkhorn I-b. Or just series I and series II.
ˆ
Is the Special model the same as a Couesnon Monopole (pro horn) or is it an intermediate model?
ˆ
I'm hope you will expand the list to include 230-3 and 240-3 models (1950s). :D



I have a small photo of a Reso-tone from a historical ad sold on ebay. I would like to post it here, but... see jazzbug's comment! :?

Your C-melody SN 22,0xx is definately a Revelation model. From 1917 to 1927 there were no other model names than 'Revelation' except the Rudy Wiedoeft C-melody which was introduced evidently (see R.W. serial number list) in 1925, (all other R.W. were obviously introduced in 1928 as jazzbug1 stated). Last year I bought a detailed (several pages) 'Revelation' ad from the mid twenties, but the seller forgot to send the item. :(

To call the Chicago made Revelation Ia and the Elkhorn made Ib is a very good idea, as there is no difference in construction except front F. In addition (or besides? what's the correct term?) we don't know exactly when front F disappeared, as the lowest (Elkhorn made!) SN I could find until now is about 5,000. The feature was introduced again mid twenties.

'The Special' is a Couesnon B-series, no 'Monopole' or 'Monopole Conservatoire'. In a (product marketing) sense this is a student horn and I'm a very happy student playing it. :). I would like to present it on your 'Couesnon stencil' thread, but ... see above.

When sombody has new information I would be glad to expand the list. Eventually geauxsax has some infos? :D

Felix

[soybean]

LaPorte and Jazzbug, i will be happy to post photos here for you if you like. Send me a private message and i will send you my email address.

[jazzbug1]

Bruce: My engraving is identical to the photos, so it seems every maker (I've seen deluxe engraving on every 1920s make except King and York) had at least one master engraver.
LaPorte: My Rudy tenor neck opening receiver is 28.5 mm. The Rudy C melody is 25mm and my new gold non-Rudy is 25mm.
Soybean: I will send photos as soon as I investigate the new COLOR pictures I have seen lately. Otherwise, I will hand color them as has been done in the past.

[jazzbug1]

Update on the "new" gold C melody: The serial # is 22682. It has the bar G# and the front F, which must have existed only for a short time, as in the silver one I just sold. Furthermore, it is the only saxophone I have ever seen with SKIN PADS, as on a clarinet. When I stripped the horn, I could tell they were original. I'm guessing this was custom set up for a clarinet player or, since they seal better than the fluffy pads in use at that time, Holton put them on this very expensive (guess $300-$500) model. The ONLY scratch on this horn is on on the neck strap clip. It is unbelieveable. When my wife saw the engraved butterflies, she said, "You need two C melodys!" I couldn't argue. The case is excellent. My guess is that the skin pads deteriorated quickly and then it was put away, although my other story sounds more romantic. I am re-padding it now and it will have a happy home, with numerous historic jazz concerts. I played my Rudy tenor with Leon Redbone last Sunday and everyone commented on the tone.

[LaPorte]

LaPorte: My Rudy tenor neck opening receiver is 28.5 mm.

Thank you for the info!

Felix

[Connie]

Jazzbug1,
If you ever decide to sell that C-mel, let me know. I'd love to have a match for MY purdy little alto. ;o)

[geauxsax]

Holton?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beaufort-American-Chicago-Alto-Sax-S-P286xx-low-pitch_W0QQitemZ350106110607QQihZ022QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[warp x]

Holton?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beaufort-American-Chicago-Alto-Sax-S-P286xx-low-pitch_W0QQitemZ350106110607QQihZ022QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Seems to have a mercedes low C guard..

[LaPorte]

Holton?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beaufort-American-Chicago-Alto-Sax-S-P286xx-low-pitch_W0QQitemZ350106110607QQihZ022QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This alto is made by Conn (Pan American), serial # beginning with a "P". This model combines new and older features (e.g. no front F, but 'modern' palm keys without bumper posts!). "Beaufort American" was sort of a 'joint venture' of Holton and Conn ca. 1930/31 during the depression. The trademark 'Beaufort American', based in Chicago (engraving!) lasted only a short period. The saxophones came from the existing production, either Conn or Holton. The Holtons correspond to the Collegiate I.

See also my Holton model list (Holton Collegiate series I).

Felix

[LaPorte]

Any idea how the (fairly well received, given that a silver 241 sold for $1200 a few months back) 240 series tenors/230 series altos, etc (can't remember the bari number series--270???

The silver plated Holton bari series 270 has SN# 130692. The number puts it to the year 1939. The engraving shows a unique floral design, which I never found before on a Holton saxophone.

R.W. Alto SN#36480 added to the R.Wiedoeft list.

Additions to the model list #80 in blue.

Felix

[jazzbug1]

Holton?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beaufort-American-Chicago-Alto-Sax-S-P286xx-low-pitch_W0QQitemZ350106110607QQihZ022QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Jazzbug sees a "Mercedes" keyguard at the bottom, which always means Conn.

[jazzbug1]

Look at EBay #260295683717. A Collegiate soprano, Serial #211XXX. Note the modern left pinky cluster. Could this date from the 1940s? If it does, its one of the few sopranos anybody made in this era. Its a beautiful horn.

[soybean]

I am guessing this is an earlier horn. The thumb-ring, white pads and 'L' for low-pitch all seem to indicate a 1920s horn. Pinky cluster does seem more modern.

[geauxsax]

One of our members bought a Holton (Rudy Tenor I believe) from that seller. Maybe Mr. Fixit (???). The post is in the Holton section.

[bruce bailey]

That soprano is one of the Courturier horns. Also, I have a L&H alto that has the three pointed keyguard:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/2236918949/

[LaPorte]

That soprano is one of the Courturier horns.

Right! This soprano saxophone SN#201849 was one of the very first 'Collegiate' which came out of the LaPorte factory after purchasing the production from Lyon&Healy, which was in spring 1928. It has a six digit serial number, beginning with a 201xxx (some with a 202xxx, like my Holton bari) stamped by the Lyon&Healy company!. Professionally fixed and played with passion, it will breathe the soul of E.A. Couturier, who ended performing 1928!

"Since I have my Lyon&Healy Couturier model
as my 'first' playing horn (alto), I can't stop researching the background of such great sounding horns, which came out of the LaPorte factory between 1922 and 1929. And this is part of the Holton history, too. Frank Holton (playing trombone) and Ernst Albert Couturier (great performer on cornet) were friends (Collegiate?!) together they created fantastic Horns (brass). Could the saxophone community accept that some of the best sounding saxophones were created by 'brass'-men?" (from my posting #84)

Note, that the number is written in a line , not in an arc. As I'm registrating all serial numbers of LaPorte made saxophones, I could identify this soprano as reselling on ebay this year.

Felix

[bruce bailey]

I'll get the serial numbers for my L&H altos later. I have the photos since they are for sale but I looked and they don't show the numbers. I sold the soprano to Europe so I can't provide that one.

[soybean]

Could the saxophone community accept that some of the best sounding saxophones were created by 'brass'-men?For example; Couesnon.

[Connie]

This thread ought to be a sticky.

[jazzbug1]

I re-built and sold a Wurlitzer C melody about a year ago. I noticed the brace rings at the bell/bow were embossed with three or four decorative rings, and were not plain rings as on most horns I have seen. I was amazed at the sound: very big and full for a C melody. I later learned (via C Melody Forum) that these three rings on the brace meant Courtier was the maker for Wurlitzer, who also used Martin, Buescher, and maybe Conn. I still remember my surprise at the sound, and if it weren't for some plating wear, I thought of keeping it.

[LaPorte]

I re-built and sold a Wurlitzer C melody about a year ago.

Do you remember the approximate serial number?

[LaPorte]

For example; Couesnon.

O.K. ;) I'm going to take some photos soon.

[bruce bailey]

Jazzbug - This would be made by the Indiana Band Instrument Co. (IBIco) if it has the "Pontiac" rings (sorry not on Studebakers). We had a discussion on these a while back and there should be a photo:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=49154&highlight=pontiac&page=3

[LaPorte]

Some thoughts about Holton models and years of production

The engraving "Revelation" is a rare find on Holton saxophones. But we do know from vintage advertising, that "Revelation" was the term for all main or professional series horns (including brass!) except those, which were signed different: "Collegiate", "Rudy Wiedoeft Model", "Beaufort American", "ResoTone" and of course stencils like "Beaufort" and "The Special". The newly listed bass saxophone (Conn) is (although not built by Holton himself) a "Revelation" too, as it has the corresponding engraving. Other companies (e.g. Lyon&Healy), which had no own production of certain types of saxophones did so. I have a "Revelation" Holton bariton made in LaPorte (by Holton!).

While the model names "Revelation" and "Collegiate" were continued, 'Three digit series' were introduced in the mid thirties. In some cases the second digit (230,231; 240,241) seems to correlate with alto, tenor, bari etc., but the first ones (201,204..) and the later (566, 577) apparently do not follow this line.

I do not try longer to understand the logic behind and take the numbers just as terms of serials. In order to find out if they are new saxophones or just updates we have to compare their features and occasionally make further examinations (e.g. exact measures, proportions).

The good news: Years of production can looked up with good results in the usual serial number list, originally published by Gordon Cherry 15 years ago, better known at present as "Lars Kirmser's".

Let's have a closer look on this interesting record of serial numbers. It's one of the best and worse SN-list existing for saxophones at the same time! It depends on how we are using it. Essentials:

Be sure the SN# you are looking up has 6 digits! Looking up 5 digit numbers or lower is misleading and the result is a difference of about 12 years! That's because we have this serial number registry: to create a new serial number list for all Holton saxophones (except stencils) and I'm confident we soon will reach this goal!

Felix

[soybean]

That's because we have this serial number registry: to create a new serial number list for all Holton saxophones (except stencils) and I'm confident we soon will reach this goal!Felix, you constantly surprise me with your knowledge of Holton saxes. You've must be thinking about this topic for a few years. We appreciate your contributions here.

I have mixed feelings about the Lars list, because it (wrong information) allows us to find some great deals on vintage Holtons. :D;)

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vingage-Supertone-Band-Master-C-Melody-Saxophone-Sax_W0QQitemZ180296770906QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 80296770906&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Couturier/Lyon&Healy stencil 1926 (series 2, best keywork available on Couturier!); no international shipping! :(;)

Felix

[geauxsax]

LaPorte,
Here are details on my burnished gold Rudy alto for the registry, with info exactly as stamped:


Eb
38475 (written in arc)
R
LP

[geauxsax]

Also,
A nice Holton stencil (Gretsch) worthy of the registry:

http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Holton/stencils/Gretsch-cybersax/Gretsch_15xxx_Tenor.html

[soybean]

A nice Holton stencil (Gretsch) worthy of the registry: and here it is, serial 15xxx;

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Holtontnr15xxx.jpg

are some of the parts from Conn?

[geauxsax]

Not sure about parts from Conn-which ones caught your eye, Soybean?

This looks very very much like my Elkhorn/New Revelation Tenor, with some updates like: Bell keys on same side, better ergonomics on LH palm keys, more modern LH spatula, and of course, front F.

[bruce bailey]

Today I got another Holton Alto, Still has the original white pads and is in great shape. Serial number is 19,XXX and it looks identical to a gold plated one I have 29,xxx.

[bruce bailey]

If you are keeping L&H numbers, mine are 200029 for a silver one with the clown face engraving and 201652 for a gold plated one with the Pan-pipes engraving. I remember the soprano being a 201,xxx with the clown engraving so I think they made both styles at the same time. The gold one has a 2 hinge neck octave key.

[LaPorte]

LaPorte,
Here are details on my burnished gold Rudy alto for the registry, with info exactly as stamped:


Eb
38475 (written in arc)
R
LP

Thank you for details, SN 38475 was already in the R.W. list #104.

Felix

[LaPorte]

Also,
A nice Holton stencil (Gretsch) worthy of the registry:

http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Holton/stencils/Gretsch-cybersax/Gretsch_15xxx_Tenor.html

Great info, geauxsax! > #80

Felix

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Holton-Rudy-Wiedoeft-Model-Alto-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ260296598825QQcmdZViewItem?hash =item260296598825&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

SN#37172 added to #104.

Felix

[LaPorte]

If you are keeping L&H numbers, mine are 200029 for a silver one with the clown face engraving and 201652 for a gold plated one with the Pan-pipes engraving. I remember the soprano being a 201,xxx with the clown engraving so I think they made both styles at the same time. The gold one has a 2 hinge neck octave key.

Thank you, bruce bailey, for the SN's! Pan-pipes? Shows the engraving a Zatyr or faun (half man/ half goat playing two flutes at the same time), little 'Roland Kirk'?

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Here is Pan: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/2237709770/

[LaPorte]

Here is Pan: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/2237709770/

Nice photo. The same engraving like on my L&H alto 200449 (not playable).

Felix

[LaPorte]

As announced, the COLLEGIATE I list.

Soprano
201849* sp

Alto
37xxx
38015 sp
39224 sp
39250 sp

Tenor
31602 sp

Bariton
202013* sp

*stamped by Lyon&Healy

to be continued..

[bruce bailey]

I also had a silver one with gold keys with that engraving. I decided to sel off all the L&Hs but so far only sold the soprano.

[LaPorte]

I remember, a very good fixed soprano about one year ago.

Felix

[soybean]

Here is Panvery artistic and unusual. Bruce, do you mind if I post that photo here?

[bruce bailey]

Post anything you want from my flicker site.
Also the L&H soprano I had was nto that unusual. I saw 3 more on ebay all within 20 numbers of mine.

[soybean]

Thanks Bruce! Here is the Pan (or "Satyr") engraved Lyon & Healy horn.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/LHSatyrengravingBBaily.jpg

[Gus Pratt]

I just purchased a Holton bari SN 126614 model 270. It is unique in that it has 3 automatic octive vents. I suspect it was made in 1939.

[geauxsax]

Gus,
You got any pics of the 270? I've never seen one.

[Gus Pratt]

The three octave vents on my 270 bari are located on the neck, on the right just below the tenon, and on the left of the upper bow. In the picture you can see the linkage that goes to it on the top of the upper bow.

[LaPorte]

Holton COLLEGIATE I SN list including BEAUFORT AMERICAN (except Conn)

These can easily be identified by the bevelled, soldered on toneholes.
Has anybody infos for the list #186?

Felix

[LaPorte]

Here it is (coincidence?!):

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-Bb-COLLEGIATE-SOPRANO-SAX-BY-FRANK-HOLTON-LOOK_W0QQitemZ180285445680QQihZ008QQcategoryZ16203 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-COLLEGIATE-Soprano-Saxophone-Frank-Holton_W0QQitemZ260295683717QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em260295683717&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1308&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Compare the serial numbers! 1. Text. 2. First photo, third line. :shock:;):D

[jazzbug1]

The winner,"Yougotbeat" should change his name to "yougotbargain". Beautiful horn. Hope it's appreciated and not over-blown by some squawky kid in a metal band.

[jazzbug1]

Here are some Holton serial numbers. I use these horns professionally and they are all in top condition. I sold the burnished gold soprano when I bought the Rudy model.
1. #24576: Bb soprano: burnished gold (this had the plastic dark green "pearls").
2. #34xxx: Bb Rudy soprano: silver (this is at J.and J. Woodwinds for an extended stay)
3. #18319: C soprano: silver
4. #35418: Rudy alto: frosted gold
5. #26643: Rudy C Melody: silver body'gold keys
6. #22682: C Melody: burnished gold with special engraving
7. #34507: Rudy tenor: silver
I play these horns in ragtime, classic jazz, and post war jazz. I always receive compliments on their sound and looks. When I mention "Holton", other players say," I thought they just made brass instruments." I think the fact that no one knows much about them has caused many musicians to disregard them, which to a buyer, keeps the prices low. Its like our little secret.

[LaPorte]

Here are some Holton serial numbers. I use these horns professionally and they are all in top condition. I sold the burnished gold soprano when I bought the Rudy model.
1. #24576: Bb soprano: burnished gold (this had the plastic dark green "pearls").
2. #34xxx: Bb Rudy soprano: silver (this is at J.and J. Woodwinds for an extended stay)
3. #18319: C soprano: silver
4. #35418: Rudy alto: frosted gold
5. #26643: Rudy C Melody: silver body'gold keys
6. #22682: C Melody: burnished gold with special engraving
7. #34507: Rudy tenor: silver


Thank you for the input, jazzbug! For the update of the #104 Rudy Wiedoeft SN List: I had the alto #35418 and your tenor #34507 already added to the list, your C melody as well. I have corrected the last digit from '8' to '3'. Would you please check if it's right now? I've newly added the soprano #34xxx. In case the complete number is #34995, #34xxx has to be removed as it is already there. Do you remember that number?

Felix

[geauxsax]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=330278748169

Tenor 23XXX, apparently with front F and "extra" keys. Sold for $300 BIN on ebay (BIN wasn't an option last time I checked horn, and opening bid was $320 if I'm not mistaken!:evil:)

Anyway, seller says 95% lacquer. Model was made before lacquer however, and close up on engraving looks really good, like no relac or after factory lac--just guessing from photos though.

Maybe this was burnished gold plate? If so, someone just scored a hell of a deal. What do you guys think?

[bruce bailey]

Yep, I think it was gold plate. The buyer probably offered the seller a deal! I don't know how I missed that one and nearby too.

[LaPorte]

[url]

Maybe this was burnished gold plate? If so, someone just scored a hell of a deal. What do you guys think?

I've looked at this beauty. My guess: All burnished gold plated saxophones were silver plated first and worn spots have a mellow silvertone shining. As this one has none, I rate it as relacquered. They've made a really good job.

Felix

[bruce bailey]

I forgot to mention that my 29,xxx gold plated Holton alto has a front F but the 19,xxx silver one does not so it was either added during that time or optioned on the gold plated one.

[jazzbug1]

My gold C melody has the same shine and color as these photos. I opt for gold. If this horn were lacquer, it would have been originally brass, which would require much buffing to get the oxidation off. Old brass horns always look a bit patchy, as the buffing process is never perfectly even, plus it dulls the details of the engraving. The Holton company must have employed some superior burnishers (a tedious hand polishing process), as the finish on this tenor and my C melody is so brilliant that at first sight it looks like lacquer. Mr. Greedy almost bid on this horn, but I have my Rudy tenor and who needs two.......
H-m-m-m. Darn it.

[bruce bailey]

Looks like plate to me too. Here is the last Rudy gold plated (burnished) that I sold, looks similar:http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtonrudygold/

[LaPorte]

I forgot to mention that my 29,xxx gold plated Holton alto has a front F but the 19,xxx silver one does not so it was either added during that time or optioned on the gold plated one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-1915-Frank-Holton-Eb-Saxophone-S-N-22221_W0QQitemZ280277804328QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m280277804328&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

This is the lowest SN (#22221) I've seen until now including front F except the Chicago made ones. From the mid twenties all altos and tenors have the front F.

Felix

[jazzbug1]

Hello, Mr. LaPorte--- Thank you for all the knowlege you contribute to this thread. I find it interesting that someone in Europe would be so interested in Holton saxophones, but that's to everyone's advantage. Answer to your serial number question: Yes, the last digit is "8" and the Rudy soprano is at J.andJ. Woodwinds, so I do not have access to the exact #. I will post it when it arrives home. I wish you the best and again thanks for all your work.

[LaPorte]

Thank you for your best wishes, Mr.Jazzbug. Could following saxophone be interesting for you?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-C-Melody-Courturier-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ120319896142QQcmdZViewItem?hash =item120319896142&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


This is an original E.A.Couturier C-melody SN#8311 made 1922/23 in LaPorte.
The toneholes are soldered on of course not drawn like the unexperienced seller says. I don't know how it sounds. I'm an alto player and it's probably known here what I think or feel about the sound of Couturier's alto saxophones.

Felix

[LaPorte]

Hope soybean doesn't mind pointing to another non Holton saxophone. At least this Lyon&Healy SN#202410 made alto is nearly identical with the COLLEGIATE I. It's a further development (series 4, the C-melody above is series 1) of the Couturier's with corresponding sound quality. bruce bailey knows this one very well. He has described the double-hinged octave key mechanism on the neck here on SOTW. I've a copy of the original document of the United States Patent Office with detailed drawing, signed at LaPorte, Ind, February 28, 1927; patented mar. 19, 1929.

Note the L-shaped C#/G# key and the design of the Eb/C key which could be found on Holtons Revelation II, on Collegiate I and IIa,b as well as on stencils (Gretsch, Getzen and Supertone).

http://cgi.ebay.com/Artists-Supertone-Alto-Saxophone-Vintage-Made-in-USA_W0QQitemZ140276664348QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 40276664348&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[bruce bailey]

Sorry to post this again but here is the L shaped G# and the double hinged neck:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/lhaltog/

[LaPorte]

This tenor is obviously one of the very first Chicago made Holton saxophones probably from late 1917. The told year of production (1902 in Lars Kirmser's) corresponds to serial numbers between 254 and 475. The author of image and posting (Nov. 2006) is musicwriter 2001. As he didn't write on SOTW for about two years, there is little hope to get the exact number.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1902 holton tenor resize saxontheweb.JPG (34.8 KB, 240 views)

Don't know how to copy the link correctly. If interested look at thread '"modern" vintage Holtons' by Honkytone; posting #7.

Felix

[LaPorte]

Anyone have any idea where a Holton "Revelation", sn 117XXX falls out in the whole scheme of Holtons? Not a Collegiate, not one on the 240 series, later than Rudy's, later than (at least my) Elkhorn. It actually looks a lot like my Elkhorn just from the pic anyway. Same neck, same octave key. I'll be honest, all the Holton body tubes look the same to me too. I personally haven't noticed any large bell/small bell differences througout the range. Any info welcome.
5891

5892

I've overlooked this until now, not yet mentioned in the model list! The Revelation model engraved 'REVELATION' is a rare find. Thank you for pointing out this Revelation model made around 1934/35. I follow your explanations and add it to the model list as REVELATION III.

This baritone SN #117144 (1934) has the 'REVELATION' engraving, too.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Holton-Baritone-Sax-Refurbished-Ready-to-pay-NR_W0QQitemZ310092721686QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item31 0092721686&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318
I would classify it as same model as the tenor above. Could anybody save some of the pictures for this thread?

Another 'Revelation III' from posting #1: "#118552 "made in 1935 (?) Frank Holton & Co. tenor sax that has - made by Revelation.. above the Holton name." I'm sure the engraving shows the same order as #117144:
"REVELATION * MADE BY * Frank Holton & Co * ELKHORN * WIS"


Felix

[soybean]

Thank you LaPorte and Geauxsax.

The newly christened "Revelation III"; rarely seen Holton saxophones from the 1930s. These are actually engraved with the name Revelation. Earlier Revelation models were not named on the horn.

tenor:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Revelationtenor21930s.jpg
≈
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Revelationtenor11930s.jpg

relacquered baritone:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Revelationbari2relaq.jpg
≈
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Revelationbari1relaq.jpg

[LaPorte]

A Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft Tenor SN#32704. > posting #104, page 6. This is the beginning of the complete 'Rudy Wiedoft model' saxophone family! The earliest one in the R.W. list is only 234 numbers higher (soprano #32938).

http://doctorsax.biz/holton_tenor_32704.htm

"That's a MONSTER horn. Sweet all the way to the bottom. The Overtones are awsome. ..."

"I can't tell you how many tenors I've had to open up the low C as fully as possible to make low D, D#, E, etc not sound stuffy. This is a better solution."

"Add that to the fact that the tonehole chimneys are brazed in...not soft soldered like the Martins, it all adds up to a sound that a modern horn can't emulate."

Felix

[narcoticrex]

Hello, I recently bought and restored a Holton Collegiate, it has 576 stamped over 255263 stamped in a semi circle shape. internet lists put it at 55, the guy at the music store (who has repaired saxes for 35 years apparently) said it was from 45. Who knows?

I think it sounds great - it plays in tune with little lipping up and down, but the fully closed middle D is very hard to hit without squeaking - but ive just restarted playing after over a decade absence, and im having a hard time putting as much air thru a horn as this girl needs. Ill start up a myspace band and post an mp3 later and take some pics, so you guys can check the old girl out. :D

[LaPorte]

The serial number records say "1954" for your horn. That seems to be more realistic for a 576 model than "1945" when model numbers began e.g. with a 24x.

Felix

[geauxsax]

Any SOTW Holton fans buy the Holton "Resotone" alto on ebay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=170272570612

It went for $500 US, so it got someone's interest.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonreso5.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonreso3.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonreso2.jpg

Serial number given as 122383 in ebay ad.

[LaPorte]

Any SOTW Holton fans buy the Holton "Resotone" alto on ebay?

Not me. 8-)

[bruce bailey]

I was tempted but right now I am trying to sell off some Holtons, not buy more.....but that never seems to happen.

[soybean]

Not I.

However, i am going to start a new thread about this model with some additional info and photos from LaPorte.

[jazzbug1]

I lusted for it, but did not buy. I may go nuts (am I already?) for a similar tenor.

[geauxsax]

I lusted for it, but did not buy. I may go nuts (am I already?) for a similar tenor.

I would definitely like to see one of those in Tenor!

[locampo]

I have a Holton Sax. with the serial # 17011. It is silver with no dents and in the original case. I can't tell you much more about it because I really don't know anything except that my mother bought it at a garage sale about 35 years ago. There is a tag on the inside of the case which I believe to indicate the Instrument Shop that originally sold the Sax. It says Chas. Parker's Band House of Houston Texas.
I hope this helps your registery.

P.S. Any information you could give as to possible date of manufactor or possible worth would be appreciated. Just looking to satisfy my curiosity.

Will add pictures ASAP.

Engraving on the front says Frank Holton Elkhorn wis.

[soybean]

The first thing to do is figure out what size saxophone you have: alto, tenor, etc. Photos would be perfect, but we can also tell you by the height of the sax without the neck attached.

[geauxsax]

A couple random Holton/expanded Holton family questions:

Do Holton Sopranos have a thumb ring, or just thumb hook, or does it vary by model/year? If so, which ones?

Are there Courturier saxes marked as Couturiers? If so, does anyone have one?

[bruce bailey]

My regular Holton soprano (C) has the regular thumb hook. I sold my L&H Courturier Bb to Germany and it had a ring like the Conns and Martins.

[LaPorte]

Are there Courturier saxes marked as Couturiers? If so, does anyone have one?

There are! 'Made By * Couturier * LaPorte * IND.'

Soprano
# 10428 silverplated, goldplated keys

Alto
# 654x
# 8807 relacquered*
# 8865 silverplated
# 9326 s.p.*
# 9363 s.p. missing neck

Tenor
# 69xx s.p.
# 7715 s.p.

C melody
# 7662 s.p.
# 7818 g.l.
# 7881 g.l.
# 7922 s.p.
# 8311 s.p.

Felix

* In my collection

[Pavel]

Hi there,

I'd like to ask you for a:? favour. Would anyone be able to say when was made a sax which I bought a few days ago. It's Frank Holton Elkhorn Tenor Sax, made in the USA, serial number is: Bb 38735 LP:?

Many thanks
Pav

[LaPorte]

Hi there,

I'd like to ask you for a:? favour. Would anyone be able to say when was made a sax which I bought a few days ago. It's Frank Holton Elkhorn Tenor Sax, made in the USA, serial number is: Bb 38735 LP:?

Many thanks
Pav

At this state of understanding I would say your tenor is made not earlier than 1929 and not later than 1930.

Would you like to tell us some details of your tenor (e.g. engraving, additional keys, LH or split bell keys)? Thank you.

Felix

[soybean]

Would you like to tell us some details of your tenor (e.g. engraving, additional keys, LH or split bell keys)?LaPorte gave you a good estimate. Any photos would also help us to date your sax.

[locampo]

The first thing to do is figure out what size saxophone you have: alto, tenor, etc. Photos would be perfect, but we can also tell you by the height of the sax without the neck attached.

sorry I forgot to mention that it is an Alto sax with a low pitch. I also have the original neck and mouth piece with reed.

[Pavel]

Hi there, would you please help me to identify my Frank Holton Elkhorn Tenor Sax, made in the USA. The serial number is:Bb 38735 LP. Recently I bought it on Ebay and I'd love to know when was it made.
Thank you ver7 much for your help.

[geauxsax]

Hi there, would you please help me to identify my Frank Holton Elkhorn Tenor Sax, made in the USA. The serial number is:Bb 38735 LP. Recently I bought it on Ebay and I'd love to know when was it made.
Thank you ver7 much for your help.

Pavel,
Probably around 1929-30. Have you seen the pics of my Holton tenor 39449serial number posted on the Holton Playing tendencies thread, post #18?
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=71134
Does yours resemble that one? Does yours have a front F? What does the inscription on the front look like? What finish do you have? LaPorte has broken the models and years of early Holtons down very well throughout these threads. See post #80 on the below link:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=70892&page=4

[luvnlife]

I am a brand new member. And I don't know a lot about sax's, but would like to learn a few things. I inherited a Frank Holton Rudy Wiedoeft Model sax. It was manufactured in Elkhorn WI. There is quite a bit of artistic scroll work on the bell especially where it denotes Frank Holton, Rudy Wiedoeft, etc.

The numbers on the under side of the bell are displayed, as follows:
Eb
3 5 8 1 4
R
L P

I think I figured out from my research that the L P means Low Pitch. And the 3 5 8 1 4 is the serial number. What do the other two mean - "Eb" & "R?"


My horn does not have a case, nor a mouthpiece. I am attaching several photos of it to this post. With the information that I've provided you and the pics, can someone please tell me if this is a tenor, baritone, or what :? And any ideas regading value would also be appreciated. Thanks for your help.

[soybean]

You have an alto sax, which are in the key of E-flat, often abreviated 'Eb'. The fact that it doesn't have a case is not so good, since saxes are delicate and usually get damaged or bent if not kept in a case.

[bruce bailey]

The R in the serial number indicates it s a RUDY and not a standard Holton. There are 2 big differences from a ragular Holton (other than the left side bell keys). First the low C on the bow has 2 keys to make it vent better and have the D not so stuffy and the other is the neck which has a sliding area so that the mouthpiece can be pushed all the way onto the cork and tuned by moving the sleeve in and out.

[luvnlife]

You have an alto sax, which are in the key of E-flat, often abreviated 'Eb'. The fact that it doesn't have a case is not so good, since saxes are delicate and usually get damaged or bent if not kept in a case.

Thank you for your response. I wondered if that Eb represented an e-flat. Fortunately, the horn is not bent; and I really don't see any dents/dings. But "since saxes are delicate," there may be some damage that I can't see. I hope not.

Anyhow, I'm not going to hold on to this instrument, as I don't play a sax. Therefore, if you or anyone else could give me some guidance regarding possible value of the instrument, I would be grateful. Again, thanks for your imput.

[luvnlife]

The R in the serial number indicates it s a RUDY and not a standard Holton. There are 2 big differences from a ragular Holton (other than the left side bell keys). First the low C on the bow has 2 keys to make it vent better and have the D not so stuffy and the other is the neck which has a sliding area so that the mouthpiece can be pushed all the way onto the cork and tuned by moving the sleeve in and out.

Thanks Bruce. I appreciate your responding to my inquiry. As I said I don't have much knowledge about saxes and wanted to learn a bit more. I do plan on selling this instrument and would welcome any advise you or anyone else could give me regarding a reasonable value to place on it. Thanks again.

[bruce bailey]

The last 2 I sold were not in really good playing condition but were good otherwise. A silver one (numerous dents) went for $275 and a gold plated one for $450. Both were in playing condition with older pads. These were both Rudy models.

[luvnlife]

The last 2 I sold were not in really good playing condition but were good otherwise. A silver one (numerous dents) went for $275 and a gold plated one for $450. Both were in playing condition with older pads. These were both Rudy models.

Thanks again. I appreciate your sharing that with me.

[geauxsax]

Another one for the registry--cool old Bari, serial number 27688.
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holtonbari1.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holtonbari4.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holtonbari3.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holtonbari2.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holtonbari8.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holtonbari9.jpg

[geauxsax]

Another bari, interestingly marked "Revelation" (which was dubbed as a "Revelation series III" by us if I'm not mistaken) as well as "215" according to the ad, serial number 117436.
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/revbari1.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/revbari2.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/revbari3.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/revbari4.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/revbari5.jpg

[soybean]

Another one for the registry--cool old Bari, serial number 27688.Those palm keys look treacherous! Thanks for posting.

So, are you playing bari now?

[geauxsax]

Those palm keys look treacherous! Thanks for posting.

So, are you playing bari now?

:D No--It was tempting though!

What really gets me is that I posted some info about a 270 bari a while back that went for $399. Why didn't I get it???

And yes-though are some funky-looking palm keys on that bari!

[LaPorte]

SN #35947 added to the Wiedoeft list.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1920s-HOLTON-RUDY-WIEDOEFT-Eb-LF-SILVER-ALTO-SAXOPHONE_W0QQitemZ370114847770QQihZ024QQcategoryZ 119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[LaPorte]

... and this one (#34996). Only one number higher than the R.W. soprano (#34995) which tells us that Holton saxophones were probably numbered contineously (as they left the factory) and not in serial specific blocks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rudy-Wiedoeft-Model-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ110314180916QQihZ001QQcategoryZ 119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[LaPorte]

A cross-breeding Wiedoeft/Revelation model SN#36894 I've never seen before. A special edition? Very similiar to the pre-Wiedoeft model!

http://cgi.ebay.com/1920S-FRANK-HOLTON-SAXAPHONE-FRANK-KASPAR-MOUTHPIECE_W0QQitemZ350128184911QQihZ022QQcategory Z119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[soybean]

LaPorte, i was waiting for you to comment on that one. The case also looks unusual. I don't remember seeing that type before.

[LaPorte]

The case also looks unusual. I don't remember seeing that type before.

My 'Symphony' (Lyon&Healy) alto came with exact that type of case which is possibly original as I cannot find any exposing double prints in the velvet (other than in the case of the Holton alto above). :)

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-BEAUFORT-Silver-Baritone-Saxophone-NORES_W0QQitemZ120336239369QQihZ002QQcategoryZ1623 3QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

'BEAUFORT AMERICAN CHICAGO USA' Holton/Conn Trademark ca. 1930/31. This bari was made by Conn.

[LaPorte]

R.W. alto SN#35210
http://cgi.ebay.de/Frank-Holton-Es-Alt-Saxophon-Modell-Rudy-Wiedoeft_W0QQitemZ270303845870QQcmdZViewItemQQptZB lasinstrumente?hash=item270303845870&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1229%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

[geauxsax]

Holton fans,

I would like to encourage you all to contribute the collected Holton info and pictures we've been assembling here to the new website: saxonline.info.

If you aren't familiar, the idea for this new site sprung from this thread:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=98626

The idea was to have a current site like saxpics used to be, with the added bonus that it would be interactive, in thatwe could post pics and info. SOTWer Dixiesax too the lead and is off and running with the site.

[LaPorte]

A cross-breeding Wiedoeft/Revelation model SN#36894 I've never seen before. A special edition? Very similiar to the pre-Wiedoeft model!

http://cgi.ebay.com/1920S-FRANK-HOLTON-SAXAPHONE-FRANK-KASPAR-MOUTHPIECE_W0QQitemZ350128184911QQihZ022QQcategory Z119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here is another 'wiedoeftoid' (RevelationI with C-vent key!), a tenor SN#33846
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Frank-Holton-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ220319497792QQihZ012QQcategoryZ 16232QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Could anybody save some convincing photos? Any suggestions how to name the model?

Felix

[geauxsax]

Here is another 'wiedoeftoid' (RevelationI with C-vent key!), a tenor SN#33846
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Frank-Holton-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ220319497792QQihZ012QQcategoryZ 16232QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Could anybody save some convincing photos? Any suggestions how to name the model?

Felix

How about Holton Wiedoeft Transitional, or Holton Tranny for short?

[jazzbug1]

Another documented Serial Number-- Ebay #220321987269. I asked the seller to list the letter date and serial#. It is #28199 and the letter from Holton is dated 2/26/27. It looks to me like the fast sellers (altos such as this) moved quickly out of the plant. I'm guessing my Rudy C Melody (#26XXX) may have been built a year or so before it was sold, as according to my Rudy brochure, the Rudys came out in the dealers by the Spring of 1928. By the later 20s, C melody sales were dropping.

[LaPorte]

How about Holton Wiedoeft Transitional, or Holton Tranny for short?

Thank you for your suggestions, geauxsax. I'll come back later to this topic.

Felix

[LaPorte]

Another documented Serial Number-- Ebay #220321987269. I asked the seller to list the letter date and serial#. It is #28199 and the letter from Holton is dated 2/26/27. It looks to me like the fast sellers (altos such as this) moved quickly out of the plant. I'm guessing my Rudy C Melody (#26XXX) may have been built a year or so before it was sold, as according to my Rudy brochure, the Rudys came out in the dealers by the Spring of 1928. By the later 20s, C melody sales were dropping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Frank-Holton-Elkhorn-Alto-Saxophone-Orig-Case-Docs-1927_W0QQitemZ220321987269QQihZ012QQcategoryZ16232 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

We have an additional (approximative) reference now! Thank you, jazzbug!

Felix

[LaPorte]

Holton bari model 215 (Revelation III ? A better foto from the front engraving would be helpful) SN# 126610 from 1939:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1920s-Vintage-Holton_W0QQitemZ230311140600QQihZ013QQcategoryZ162 33QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[LaPorte]

R.W. alto SN# 36979 for the list page 6 (it's growing!).

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Old-SP-Rudy-Wiedoeft-Holton-Alto-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ140285914958QQihZ004QQcategoryZ 119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[LaPorte]

When did the C-melody saxophone disappear?

Jazzbugs last contribution leads me to the idea to find a Holton C-melody with a serial number as high as possible. Any info?

Felix

[LaPorte]

Off topic:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300277518924&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

http://drrick.com/Vintage%20Sax%20Collection.htm

Number 9. is the "Perfect Curved Soprano" made by Lyon and Healy in La Porte ! Not made by Martin !!

Felix

[jazzbug1]

The serial number of the aforementioned Rudy alto (#36979) is the highest Rudy # I've seen. It probably reaches into 1930. I recall seeing a GOLD-plated Rudy BARITONE on EBay about a year ago. It was missing the neck. It must have been one of only a dozen or so produced and may have been the only gold Rudy baritone. I was tempted, as it only went for $400-500.00. Anyone know of it's whereabouts?

[jazzbug1]

Take note of EBay #290280059003-- It is a very early Holton C or Bb tenor Serial #848. It has the front F which was soon discontinued, but then revived in the mid 1920s.

[LaPorte]

Take note of EBay #290280059003-- It is a very early Holton C or Bb tenor Serial #848. It has the front F which was soon discontinued, but then revived in the mid 1920s.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-HOLTON-SAXOPHONE-FOR-RESTORATION_W0QQitemZ290280059003QQihZ019QQcategor yZ119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Undoubtly a Bb tenor, the earliest (and only Chicago made) one I've seen. Any idea what has happened with the silver plating? The plating of my Chicago made Holton alto (project horn) is in very good condition.

[LaPorte]

Frank Holton began producing saxophones in Chicago (Revelation model) probably 1917 (Reference:Leblanc). The production in Elkhorn began spring (prob. April 1918; Ref.: Holton Loyalist). Here are the serial numbers from following early 'pre-Elkhorn' saxophones, engraving:"Made by Frank Holton Co Chicago", I've documented:

# 639 Eb alto
# 759 Eb alto
# 848 Bb tenor
# 1189 Eb alto

Felix

Thanks to jazzbug1 my humble list of Chicago made Holton saxes grows 33%:).

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1937-Holton-Tenor-Saxophone-w-Original-Case_W0QQitemZ190271260241QQihZ009QQcategoryZ11903 0QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Another Holton tenor well played, but in remarkably good condition in nice original case: A Revelation III engraved 'REVELATION' from 1937 SN# 120991. Fotos are worth to be saved I think as well as some other Holton ebay finds of the last time.;)

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lyon-and-Healy-Soprano-Sax-Bb-w-Protec-Case-New-Reeds_W0QQitemZ140286336536QQihZ004QQcategoryZ1620 3QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Bruce Bailey?;)

[bruce bailey]

I was the first bidder....Too bad the thumb ring was replaced with a thumb rest (I assume).

[jazzbug1]

As to the early Holton tenor:I have seen a number of silver-plated horns that were stripped to brass, then lacquered. This was probably in the 1940s-50s when high school students or amateur players didn't want those "old silver horns" (my brother was one of them). There are always a few tell-tale specks of silver left somewhere on the horn and the engraving is faint, as the scribing was done on top of the silver. The stripping was done in a cyanide bath. Hope they rinsed them well.

[jazzbug1]

Concerning the Revelation tenor Mr. LaPorte mentions: Look closely-- Do I see a Rudy type sliding cork on the neck"? That's certainly a maximum size G# key. I wonder if the conical dimensions are the same as my Rudy tenor. My tenor has a remarkable upper register, which sounds clean and clear like a C melody, while it retains a full bottom end sound. I was so impressed, I sold my Conn 10M, which most players would think was crazy. But I am crazy, so it was expected!

[geauxsax]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1937-Holton-Tenor-Saxophone-w-Original-Case_W0QQitemZ190271260241QQihZ009QQcategoryZ11903 0QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Another Holton tenor well played, but in remarkably good condition in nice original case: A Revelation III engraved 'REVELATION' from 1937 SN# 120991. Fotos are worth to be saved I think as well as some other Holton ebay finds of the last time.;)


Oh--I posted about this on the "Modern Vintage" thread too. I just noticed the "Revelation" engraved on it. What about the model number though? The seller says it's a 243, but the numbers are so small, I can't tell. Perhaps "213" instead? I tried enlarging th pic, but it just got fuzzy.

[LaPorte]

Oh--I posted about this on the "Modern Vintage" thread too. I just noticed the "Revelation" engraved on it. What about the model number though? The seller says it's a 243, but the numbers are so small, I can't tell. Perhaps "213" instead? I tried enlarging th pic, but it just got fuzzy.
geauxsax from 'Modern Vintage Holtons':

"How about this tenor from ebay? I'm not questioing the auction at all--seems fine to me. I'm just curious about the model and how it fits with other models. It says it is a 243--and appears to back it up with a pic of the sn (model # above sn--maybe it says 213 instead though???). But the sn is significantly earlier than my 232 altos (would think their sn's would be contemporary with 242 tenors, right?) The horn (but not neck) looks like a 24X eries horn, but the engraving style and the neck are more akin to earlier models like Revelations. The LH pinky cluster doesn't look like the 243 pics I've seen either."

On a sharp enlarging the number says "213".

Holton's fundamental model structure is very simple:

1. Professional Line (since 1917): REVELATION
2. Student Line (since 1928): COLLEGIATE

What about 'Wiedoeft model' or 'ResoTone'?
Both are special editions deriving from the REVELATION (Ib or rather III)

Of course REVELATION and COLLEGIATE were modernized through the years: Completely new (incl. different bore/new proportions): REVELATION II compared to REVELATION I and COLLEGIATE II compared to COLLEGIATE I; moderately different: REVELATION III compared to REVELATION II.

We can say I, II and III are series (not serial-!) numbers as well as 201, 204(ResoTone) 213 (REVELATION III tenor).

For better understanding and classification my suggestion is regarding the the REVELATION III as transitional series beginning ca. 1935. REVELATION III has a lot of modern features, but the traditional front engraving Holton used from 1917 (type) ca. 1921 (floral design).

In short: We have the terms I, II, and III for the older vintage Holtons and the 'three digit series' for the 'modern vintage Holtons', which differenciate (in addition) between alto, tenor, bari (second digit!). Also REVELATION and COLLEGIATE got different three-digit-numbers as terms of series.

Consequently the REVELATION III is a transitional saxophone which has both: 'classical' engraving including 'REVELATION' and a three digit series number.

My impression is that the three digit system was not handled very strictly through the years (see also #171 of this thread, of which terminology has to be slightly updated now:TGNCHK:).

Felix

[LaPorte]

Concerning the Revelation tenor Mr. LaPorte mentions: Look closely-- Do I see a Rudy type sliding cork on the neck"? That's certainly a maximum size G# key. I wonder if the conical dimensions are the same as my Rudy tenor. My tenor has a remarkable upper register, which sounds clean and clear like a C melody, while it retains a full bottom end sound. I was so impressed, I sold my Conn 10M, which most players would think was crazy. But I am crazy, so it was expected!

I agree, there is indeed a Rudy type sliding cork on the neck.

Conical dimensions: This is personally one of the most interesting questions for me. I'm pretty shure that this REVELATION III has different bore (supposed to be bigger at the beginning of the tube) and different proportions compared to the 'Rudy Wiedoeft model' which is essentially a REVELATION I. There was a fundamental change from the REVELATION I to II (geauxsax' tenor!).

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360113724189&indexURL=1&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

Probably no Holton. Martin? Anybody who knows?

[bruce bailey]

I would say either a Martin or IBIco. horn. Really rough and I wouldn't bother trying to fix it.

[talen03]

Do you know what the model shown in post #257 is? I just bought it for my daughter.

[LaPorte]

Do you know what the model shown in post #257 is? I just bought it for my daughter.

The model shown in #257 is a Revelation series Ib (see model list #80) made in early 1927.
This saxophone is of great interest for dating / reconstruction of the SN time line.
Are you the new owner?

[talen03]

Yes I am the new owner. We just received the sax today. Needs some pads but other than that is in really good shape for its age. Not really familiar with Holtons but my daughter really liked it! Why no cork on the neck? Has original mouthpiece. Along with the paperwork and all.
Thanks for all the info here!:)
:borg:

[bruce bailey]

The cork is on the sliding piece with the screw. The cork assemblly fits into the mouthpiece all the way and to tune, you slide the bit and tighten the screw. Don't lose the little bit as they are not available.

[LaPorte]

I would say either a Martin or IBIco. horn. Really rough and I wouldn't bother trying to fix it.

Thank you, Bruce Bailey. Just this moment the answer came up: IBIco=
Indiana Band Instrument Company!:D

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Frank-Holton-Antique-Saxophone-Clarinet-Case_W0QQitemZ150315712539QQihZ005QQcategoryZ11902 9QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

C soprano #14020.

[bruce bailey]

I think that one is a Buescher horn. Mu Holton C is keyed to high F.

[LaPorte]

Could anybody save the photos of the C soprano above for the serial number registry? Especially enlarged number 2 and 3. Thank you.

Felix

[LaPorte]

I think that one is a Buescher horn. Mu Holton C is keyed to high F.

Which serial number has your Holton C soprano?

[jazzbug1]

I agree-- that looks Buescher. My 1924 (documented by Holton) C soprano is #18319 and is keyed to high F(squeeze hard on the Goldbeck C mouthpiece and it comes out!), so maybe in the early 20s, Holton bought Bueschers, as Buescher made stencils for just about everyone. The C soprano was a short-lived horn and by the later 1920s, I don't see it mentioned. There is a Buescher curved C soprano owned by a local collector.

[LaPorte]

Sorry, that can't be right.

Why is the C soprano SN #14020 made by Holton and not by Buescher?

1. The engraving clearly says: "made by Frank Holton..."
2. Buescher made saxophones have (without exception) Buescher specific serial numbers and "low pitch" instead of "LP".
3. A Buescher serial number 14020 would take this C soprano to the year 1911!
4. In 1911 there were no such things like C-saxophones.

Felix

[bruce bailey]

I think even thought a horn was made by Buescher it could have a Holton serial number and not a Buescher. My Holton (to high F) C soprano serial number is 16741.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtoncsop/

[soybean]

Here's the C soprano in question:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Holtoncsoprano.jpg

[LaPorte]

I think even thought a horn was made by Buescher it could have a Holton serial number and not a Buescher. My Holton (to high F) C soprano serial number is 16741.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/holtoncsop/

Thank you, Bruce Bailey, for the good photos.

I've compared both C sopranos on enlarged pictures side by side. I couldn't find any single difference except additional high F.

How to get insights?

If 'made by' could mean 'not made by', my researches are no researches.
If there are neither rules nor evidence (we can rely on) we won't get any results.

Holton serial number registry - what for?
Can we define a common basis?

Felix

[jazzbug1]

I've never seen a Holton soprano that did not go to high F. I'm not sure when they started making sopranos (early 20s?) but the oldest serial # I've seen on a soprano is 14000. Perhaps there are earlier ones out there? Do the earliest ones go to high F? If so, then Holton was labelling some stencils as their own, as they did with Conn bass saxophones. I have a Holton band instrument wall chart from the later 1930s and it pictures the entire line of Holton saxophones, etc. It shows the Conn bass with old style Holton engraving. It shows a generic C Melody (no longer current) and the alto, tenor, baritone, and soprano have the newer"Art Deco" style Holton logos.

[LaPorte]

... If so, then Holton was labelling some stencils as their own, as they did with Conn bass saxophones. I have a Holton band instrument wall chart from the later 1930s and it pictures the entire line of Holton saxophones, etc. It shows the Conn bass with old style Holton engraving. ...

http://www.quinntheeskimo.net/Pics/HOltonBass111908a/HOltonBass111908a28.jpg


"... The engraving shows the typical ornaments of the Revelation model of the twenties, but it's lacking the 'made by'. Frank Holton was an honest man: Not made by the Frank Holton Company!..." from #13 'Holton bass saxophone on ebay'.

[LaPorte]

[QUOTE=LaPorte;923437]

Rudy Wiedoeft model; Serial number registry:

C-mel.
16251 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft' model
20058 (!) (centrostudimusicali.it)
20xxx (!) (I try to confirm this by e-mail contact with the owner)
25444
26648
26678

Soprano
32938
34xxx
34995
36077

Alto
34085
34384
34489
347xx gl
34765
34792 g.pl.
34996
35210
35320
35418
35664
35814
35947
36336 s.p./goldplated keys
36480
36xxx
36599 sp
36604
36863 missing neck
36975
36979
37xxx
37090
37172
37352 sp
38475
39620 sp 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'
40127 gl 'Post-Rudy-Wiedoeft'
40145 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'
40185 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'

Tenor
32704 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft'
32764 sp Pre-Rudy-Wiedoft model
34507
38xxx
38514
38524 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'!


Bariton
30287 'Pre-RudyWiedoeft'
34610
34667

http://cgi.ebay.com/1926-C-MELODY-HOLTON-SAXOPHONE-SILVER-ELKHORN-WIS-COMP_W0QQitemZ110421917506QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item19b5a8bf42&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[LaPorte]

There are! 'Made By * Couturier * LaPorte * IND.'

Soprano
# 10428 silverplated, goldplated keys

Alto
# 654x
# 8807 relacquered*
# 8865 silverplated
# 9326 s.p.*
# 9363 s.p. missing neck

Tenor
# 69xx s.p.
# 7715 s.p.

C melody
# 7209 s.p.
# 7662 s.p.
# 7818 g.l.
# 7881 g.l.
# 7922 s.p.
# 8311 s.p.

http://cgi.ebay.com/COUTURICH-C-MELODY-SAX_W0QQitemZ180325432519QQihZ008QQcategoryZ119030 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Felix


This list containes only SN before the Couturier Band Instrument Company went into receivership Oct. 4 th 1923. Stencils (e.g. Gretsch) are not included.

Updated 02-03-2009

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1937-Holton-Tenor-Saxophone-w-Original-Case_W0QQitemZ190271260241QQihZ009QQcategoryZ11903 0QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Another Holton tenor well played, but in remarkably good condition in nice original case: A Revelation III engraved 'REVELATION' from 1937 SN# 120991. Fotos are worth to be saved I think as well as some other Holton ebay finds of the last time.;)

The big brother of the same family (baritone,; Revelation III):

http://cgi.ebay.com/1920s-Vintage-Holton-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ230315111424QQihZ013QQcategoryZ 16233QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

series 215, serial number 126610. The tenor above is series 213. Does this put some light on the logic of Holtons terms (model/series)? I'm not sure.

This one is virtually the same, don't know if it has a three digit series-number:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Holton-Baritone-Sax-Refurbished-Ready-to-pay-NR_W0QQitemZ310108374356QQihZ021QQcategoryZ16233QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[LaPorte]

Another C soprano, 'ready to pay' SN #10779:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220331930124&_trksid=p2759.l1259

[jwalin]

Alright, I've got one to add....

I believe it is a Revelation Ib???

I had previously thought it was a 1912, but I am finding out more from this thread. It has Elkhorn, Wis. on the stencil, so must be after 1918, right?

The serial number is:

16582

Eb, Low Pitch Alto, Silver plate, gold wash bell.

It is in great physical, stored in the top of a closet for 50 years condition. I will be disassembling it, polishing, and getting it to a tech for a repad and setup soon.

Then I will learn to play on it! I am a guitar and bass player, and have always wanted to play saxophone. It was my grandfathers horn, so it has sentimental value.

Any advice on pads? I was planning on the Roo Pads with some kind of resonator from Music Medic. It has a Buescher mouthpiece, and I bought some 2.5 Rico reeds and made some horrible noises on it so far. It has alot of leaks. Plays about 5 notes.

I will post pics soon, I need to figure out how to do it on the forum.

Jeff

[soybean]

Welcome to the forum! I would think any quality pad would work well on this. Roo pads are most desirable for saxes with rolled tone holes, which i assume yours does not have.

[geauxsax]

Alright, I've got one to add....

I believe it is a Revelation Ib???

I had previously thought it was a 1912, but I am finding out more from this thread. It has Elkhorn, Wis. on the stencil, so must be after 1918, right?

The serial number is:

16582

Eb, Low Pitch Alto, Silver plate, gold wash bell.

It is in great physical, stored in the top of a closet for 50 years condition. I will be disassembling it, polishing, and getting it to a tech for a repad and setup soon.

Then I will learn to play on it! I am a guitar and bass player, and have always wanted to play saxophone. It was my grandfathers horn, so it has sentimental value.

Any advice on pads? I was planning on the Roo Pads with some kind of resonator from Music Medic. It has a Buescher mouthpiece, and I bought some 2.5 Rico reeds and made some horrible noises on it so far. It has alot of leaks. Plays about 5 notes.

I will post pics soon, I need to figure out how to do it on the forum.

Jeff

Yes-Welcome! Polish gently though (there are threads concerning this) and be careful when disassembling. Using harsh methods or polish, especially on the gold wash in the bell could have bad consequences on a nice old horn. I would see how far I could get without disassembling the horn personally. I did mine (pics gratuitously posted earlier this thread) with q-tips for the tight areas.

And of course--let's see some pics!

[geauxsax]

Holton "Ideal" tenor?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Vintage-Ideal-Holton-Tenor-Saxophone-Elkhorn-WI_W0QQitemZ360119026532QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBrass_I nstruments?hash=item360119026532

Looks like an old Collegiate to me, in rough shape and missing the alt F# keyguard. Hadn't seen one labeled like this yet though.

[geauxsax]

Bb Sop with the cool extra keys:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1916-Frank-Holton-Bb-Soprano-Sax-Saxophone-Rare-NR_W0QQitemZ220332890361QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defa ultDomain_0?hash=item220332890361&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
Old military horn (?), silver plate, sn: 34806

[soybean]

Some cool Holtons have really been turning up lately. Here's another one. Have you ever seen a "Professional" model? It's an alto on ebay. Serial number 39608 and has the single letter R as in Rudy. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380091787642

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax07.jpg

C/Eb keys made from tooling brought over from LaPorte:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax05.jpg

"master" keys:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax04.jpg

serial and 'R'

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax013.jpg

keyguard:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax010.jpg

quote from Felix: "Soybean,
A really interesting model, some sort of special edition, not yet mentioned in the model list! The engraving could be found on a baritone series '270', too. The right hand pinky keys were made with tools referred from LaPorte to Elkhorn after closing the factory. Same design can be found on Collegiate II and Revelation II (geauxsax' tenor)."

[geauxsax]

It's like a Franken-alto! Rudy cues on the extra keys (and "R" in the sn), 230-series bell keys and guard, and yes--as Felix said: The LaPorte RH pinky keys, just like my Rev II Tenor. Very interesting!

[LaPorte]

The silver plated Holton bari series 270 has SN# 130692. The number puts it to the year 1939. The engraving shows a unique floral design, which I never found before on a Holton saxophone.

HOLTON alto saxophone, the 'PROFESSIONAL'

Collecting the facts:

engraving:
PROFESSIONAL
HOLTON
ELKHORN
WIS

*rare floral engraving found until now on one other saxophone (bari series 270)
*new 'HOLTON'-characters
*no 'made by'
*serial number #39603 (one of the highest 5 digit numbers seen)
*additional 'R' usually seen on the 'Rudy Wiedoeft model', but
*no specific 'Rudy'-features (C-vent key, neck with tuning-slide mpc receiver) except
*LH bell keys
*'masterkeys' like on all Revelation I and R.W.mod.
*new LH pinky key-table
*LaPorte type RH pinky keys and joint rings
*new keygards (LH bell keys)
*new bow protector


to be continued

[soybean]

Are you sure about the gold washed bell? It looked to be plain silver.

[LaPorte]

Are you sure about the gold washed bell? It looked to be plain silver.
You might be right. I remove it from the list.

Felix

[talen03]

In reference to the tenor in post 299. I think more bids are for the Brilhart that comes with it than the horn. I might bid on that myself.
:borg:

[soybean]

In reference to the tenor in post 299. I think more bids are for the Brilhart that comes with it than the horn.Haha. I'll bet you're right.

[bruce bailey]

Shhhh!

[LaPorte]

HOLTON alto saxophone, the 'PROFESSIONAL'

engraving:
PROFESSIONAL
HOLTON
ELKHORN
WIS

*rare floral engraving found until now on one other saxophone (bari series 270)
*new 'HOLTON'-characters
*no 'made by'
*serial number #39603 (one of the highest 5 digit numbers seen)
*additional 'R' usually seen on the 'Rudy Wiedoeft model', but
*no specific 'Rudy'-features (C-vent key, neck with tuning-slide mpc receiver) except
*LH bell keys
*'masterkeys' like on all Revelation I and R.W.mod.
*new LH pinky key-table
*LaPorte type RH pinky keys and joint rings
*new keygards (LH bell keys)
*new bow protector

My first impression: An unique specimen put together by a skilled trainee from parts laying around.

My conclusions in short:
Made 1931 during the depression from available tooling (no money for new machines!). The contract with Rudy Wiedoeft was just released, but there had been some body tubes already stamped with an 'R' and a serial number higher than any R.W. model. At the same time Holton experimented to create new models to meet the needs of the market. The 'PROFESSIONAL' could be regarded as a precurser of the 203/204 (ResoTone) although there are many differences.

The phase of experimentation can be reckoned also by the fact, that short after the 'PRO' Holton produced some 'technical' R.W. models without according engraving (e.g. SN #40145). There were no legal issues as the 'Rudy Wiedoeft model' was a pure Holton design with a Holton patent (R.W. was a player, no technician or designer). During the depression Holton might have produced professional saxophones mainly by customer's order.

Felix

[soybean]

Your conclusions seem correct to me. Nice work!

[bruce bailey]

I agree, sounds good.

[talen03]

Hi All,
I e-mailed a seller and was told that their Holton Tenor was a model 475 serial #125XXX. Anybody know where this falls as a model....Revelation, Collegiate etc?
Thanks

:borg:

[LaPorte]

Hi All,
I e-mailed a seller and was told that their Holton Tenor was a model 475 serial #125XXX. Anybody know where this falls as a model....Revelation, Collegiate etc?
Thanks

:borg:

The two numbers don't go well together. If the serial number is correct, the three digit series number begins with a '2'. If the '475' is correct the serial number must be much higher. If it's a 'COLLEGIATE' it's engraved 'COLLEGIATE' '(made) by Holton'. If there is no 'COLLEGIATE' on the front engraving, it's the (professional model) REVELATION.

I just found out that there is a silverplated tenor '475', so my statement could possibly turn out to be wrong and we have to learn new things about the "modern vintage Holton's".

Felix

[soybean]

was told that their Holton Tenor was a model 475 serial #125XXXWelcome to SOTW. Ask them if it's possible the 4 in 475 is actually a 2.

[LaPorte]

A happy New Year
to all Holton fans,
musicians and
all people
who love
music

Felix

[LaPorte]

Holton "Ideal" tenor?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Vintage-Ideal-Holton-Tenor-Saxophone-Elkhorn-WI_W0QQitemZ360119026532QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBrass_I nstruments?hash=item360119026532

Looks like an old Collegiate to me, in rough shape and missing the alt F# keyguard. Hadn't seen one labeled like this yet though.

The engraving is not exactly like the seller says. Could anybody help to decipher the exact wording from the photo?

[talen03]

Hi Felix, That is the horn that they said was a 475. My eyes are not good enough to decipher anything else. Hopefully whoever bought it reads this forum. It's price got away from me.

:borg:

[LaPorte]

Hi Felix, That is the horn that they said was a 475. My eyes are not good enough to decipher anything else. Hopefully whoever bought it reads this forum. It's price got away from me.

:borg:

'475' is seems to be correct. As soon as we have the exact front engraving, I'll include it in the model list as well as the 'PROFESSIONAL'. I know now that I was wrong concerning the relation between series and serial number. Let's have a try reading the front engraving (please correct me!):

HOLTON IDEAL
made by
HOLTON Co.
ELKHORN
WIS.

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-AMERICAN-SAXOPHONE-BY-CROWN_W0QQitemZ190275207841QQihZ009QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Who made this alto: Holton, Conn? Any suggestions?

Felix

[cluxtonj]

Hey guys, here is another one for your registry. My husband got a this one at a flea market. Serial#16706 it is a C low pitch. Frank Holton Co. Elkhorn Wis. Can you tell me any thing about it? It appears to be silver or silvercoated, with pearl keys. In really good shape to be as old as I think it is. It also has the case. Any advice on cleaning it? Can anyone give me an idea on what it is worth? Joan

[bruce bailey]

Got photos? It could be worth as little as $100 if it needs a lot of work but if it is in mint condition, maybe $700. The C Melodies have not had a big following until lately. It is probably satin silver plate with polished keys and may have a godl wash (plate) inside the bell. Having the case is important regardless of condition. To clean, use a soft silver polish like Haggerty's liquid but do NOT get it on the pads or keywork where things move or they will cease to move! These C Melodies are between an alto and tenor and play in concert pitch like a piano, flute, violin, etc. Popular for church use as you can read off the hymns.

[LaPorte]

New R.W. alto in #292.

[soybean]

Here is LaPorte's link:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180318155431&indexURL=111#ebayphotohosting
Updated 01-05-2009

This is from Dr Larry Ross. I don't know him but he always has interesting saxes for sale. His collection must be amazing.

[soybean]

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/HoltonRudyadvert.jpg

Does anyone know what the text says?

[LaPorte]

The seller emailed me this photo with the same resolution (300x400). For me the text is hardly to decipher. The date could be "march 7 1928".

Felix

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/NR-TOM-BROWN-ALTO-SAX-SAXOPHONE-87XX_W0QQitemZ290286310816QQihZ019QQcategoryZ11903 0QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

A Couturier made stencil
Tom Brown
xxxxxxx
Chicago

Could anybody help me to identify the second line of the front engraving (picture two)?

The same 'Tom Brown'?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1929-ORIGINAL-AD-Buescher-SAXOPHONE-Town-Brown-Clown_W0QQitemZ190278116011QQihZ009QQcategoryZ1190 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Felix

[soybean]

It says:

Tom Brown
Professional
Chicago

Tom Brown was an early star of the saxophone. There is a book about him and his group called "That Moaning Saxophone". http://www.amazon.com/That-Moaning-Saxophone-Brothers-Dawning/dp/0195165926/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231224162&sr=1-2

[LaPorte]

Thank you. So this alto is sold possibly by Couturier himself as a trademark, not a stencil in the usual sense. The 'Couturier rose' can be found on all Couturier saxophones (and brass!) wether they were sold as stencils or not. The flowering design on the front engraving disappeared after receivership Oct. 1923.

Interesting info about Tom Brown.

Felix

[LaPorte]

R.W alto SN#36599 in #292.

[jazzbug1]

The Wiedoeft letter comes from a Holton brochure promoting the new Rudy Wiedoeft
models. The brochure is entitled "Birds of a Feather". The letter is addressed to Frank Holton, March 1, 1929, Elkhorn, Wisconsin and is as follows: "The fact that I am doing heretofore impossible things on the saxophone is of no satisfaction to me compared to the wonderful letters I am constantly receiving from fellow musicians who report similar results with Holton saxophones. It seems that my association with you is making my great ambition come true--That I may be remembered not for my playing, but for having contributed something that all may use to add to their skill in reaching success in music."
This letter is interesting in several ways, in that it is clear Rudy knew he was the best in the world (recordings confirm this) and the fact that "report similar results with Holton..." clearly indicates he did not play a Holton. By this time he was close friends with Henri Selmer and played a Selmer. Rudy was interested in a concert sound by the later 20s and the small bore Selmer fills this need better than the Holtons. I have played Selmers from the 20s and they are not much of a jazzy horn. They have a very restrained, proper sound, probably closer to Mr. Sax's original intent. I have played every American- made C Melody and I have found the Rudy (rare!) to be the best. That silly-looking key attached to the low C really does open up notes below F, giving the horn a beautiful resonance. The bore of the Holton is a bit under the Martin and wider than the Conn or Buescher, which gives it a decent volume level. The intonation is excellent and the front F key makes it able to play altissimo notes (using a Goldbeck mouthpiece). That funny little side key allows an easy C to D or D to Eb trill. Both of these Rudy features were copied from Buffet, who used these around 1910. (See my earlier blab buried somewhere in this website). The Holtons of this era have a very bright sound compared to the 20s Conns and even the later Conn 6M alto. I notice the price on Holtons is going up, whereas Conn C melodys and altos are dropping on EBay. Is it due to our chats? The truth is out. Don't believe the old negative talk about Holton saxophones. Just PLAY one.

[LaPorte]

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/ba64_1.jpg

Very interesting! Thank you, Mr. jazzbug1.

[soybean]

…the fact that "report similar results with Holton..." clearly indicates he did not play a Holton. By this time he was close friends with Henri Selmer and played a Selmer.Thanks for giving us the text. I didn't interpret it that way. To me it says: other sax players report similar results with Holton, as I have. Everything else you say, i agree with 100%.

As far as your Rudy C-mel, do you feel it is superior to the Holton non-Rudy C-melody models? Is that because of the breather key attached to the low C? Other than that, my horn has all the masterkeys, etc. I wonder which model Tram played.

[LaPorte]

New R.W. alto SN#36979 from 'wideangleman' in #292.

[jazzbug1]

The Wiedoeft model has a more resonance in the E-D range. It is especially clear with the middle D, which is stuffy sounding on all C melodys I have played. The only variable is that funny little breather key at the low C, which appears to open the sound. C melodys have a smaller bore and conical shape, so I think this note is more sensitive than on an alto or tenor, which are typically a different bore shape, and hence have much more resonance and volume capability. Listen to my video on You Tube under Jazzbug1 where I play "Body and Soul" on a Wiedoeft model. The horn plays remarkably easily up and down. It's all in the horn, as the player is a rank amateur.

[LaPorte]

Rudy Wiedoeft Tenor on ebay.france #292.

[holtsax]

Can someone help me with how old my sax is and what its worth? it is a silver alto sax that is ingraved Frank Holton CO Chicago. Underneath that it is ingraved Lociedad ( or Sociedad) Fraternal Hispano-Americana de Filadelfia. and on the other side of the bell is 1200 L.P. I dont see anything else on it, and it plays beautifully. thanks

[LaPorte]

Hi Holtsax,

welcome to SOTW!

The serial number of your alto indicates that it is one of the last Chicago made saxophones. The production in Chicago ended march 1918, so yours is most probably made between January and march 1918. The SN '1200' is great info as it is the highest number seen on a Chicago made saxophone until now! I'll add the number to the list.

The additional engraving ("Sociedad..) is not originally Holton's.

The value depends on its condition and playability. In good condition it may be worth 250-500$ (when fixed ca. 200$ higher).

Would you like to take some photos for the registry?

[LaPorte]

Originally Posted by LaPorte View Post
Frank Holton began producing saxophones in Chicago (Revelation model) 1917 (Reference:Leblanc). The production in Elkhorn was continued spring (April 1918; Ref.: Holton Loyalist). Here is the serial number registry of early 'pre-Elkhorn' saxophones, engraving:

Made by
Frank Holton Co.
Chicago

# 639 Eb alto
# 759 Eb alto
# 848 Bb tenor
# 1189 Eb alto
# 1200 Eb alto

Felix

[jazzbug1]

Mr. LaPorte-- That Rudy model tenor is quite rare, as I bought one of the only two I have seen on Ebay in several years. It has a remarkable top end and is very comparable to modern tenors, and yet it retains a deep sound below low G. It turned out so good that I sold my 1941 Conn 10M and now use it exclusively. It is flexible enough to play historic and more modern jazz. Most fellow players felt I was crazy to sell the legendary 10M, but after they heard this horn, they agree it is overall a more flexible horn, even though it is a generation earlier than the 10M. All I miss in the 10M is the ability to easily whisper a low Bb, but the Holton is almost as good and does not require the effort of the embrochure to play above high G. The altos and C melodys have a similar brightness I do not find in other 1920s horns, except the very small bore Bueschers, which lack the bottom end. If the dealer is reputable, this might be quite a nice item for our readers.

[LaPorte]

Mr. jazzbug-- Thank you for the detailed info on the R.W. tenor.

New post-R.W. alto (without 'Rudy Wiedoeft model'-engraving) SN #40185 in #292.

[LaPorte]

The 'Rudy Wiedoeft model' engraving disappeared late in 1930 between SN #38514 and #38524! See new tenor in post #292, page 15.

Felix

[soybean]

Here's one for LaPorte. A C-melody with serial number 209xx. The front 'F' key seems to be a different design.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Frank-Holton-C-Melody-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ260357608286QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ LH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item260357608286&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A3|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1308

[LaPorte]

http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii76/LeSaxShoppe/working%20melody/?action=view&current=P1080343.jpg

Hmm.. what I see within the area in question is a high 'E' key and a mpc cap. I'm afraid I dont know the answer.:?

Here is a spatula front 'F' key (last photo) on an early Conn alto, apparently no genuine Holton idea:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260348597275&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

[LaPorte]

Wanted! I've seen a bulk of Holton serial numbers, but there never had been numbers between 1.200 and ca. 5500.

That means there is a gap of around two years!

Where are those saxophones, made between spring 1918 and mid 1920?

Who owns or knows of a Holton saxophone built around 1919?

Any info or idea?

Felix

[TommyD69]

Wanted! I've seen a bulk of Holton serial numbers, but there never had been numbers between 1.200 and ca. 5500.

That means there is a gap of around two years!

Where are the saxophones made between spring 1918 and mid 1920?

Who owns or knows of a Holton saxophone built around 1919?

Any info or idea?

Felix




World War I?

[soybean]

World War I?Perhaps the factory was pressed into wartime work. Perhaps making metal parts for…?

[LaPorte]

Perhaps the factory was pressed into wartime work. Perhaps making metal parts for…?

This might be a firm lead, as it would explain some contradictory info's about Holton history.

To narrow down the time Holton continued producing saxophones, I would like to suggest a registry for low Holton serial numbers - only four digit numbers.

Do you think this might be helpful?

Felix

[bruce bailey]

During WW I war production was not shut down as much as WW II and it was really a short period of time.

[soybean]

During WW I war production was not shut down as much as WW II and it was really a short period of time.I agree with this statement. We don't hear much about factories in the USA being converted to wartime production during WW1. However, it seems possible that Holton was involved since they were metal workers. Or perhaps they simply stopped production during this period.

[soybean]

**Big News!**

I just saw the latest draft of Felix' (LaPorte) Holton Serial Number chart. It is wonderful! The first accurate serial number list for Holton saxes.:D This will be a very valuable document for anyone interested in early Holton saxophones or the history of saxophones in general. It will be a "sticky" at the top of this page very soon.

[jazzbug1]

WW I for America was Spring, 1917 to November, 1918. The munitions, guns, clothing makers kept up well with the needs, so other companies were not converted as in WW II. Looking at the number of U.S. military horns dating from the WW I era, the instrument makers were busy. I can't explain the missing serial numbers, other than maybe Holton never assigned these numbers to a product, as something should show up in this range. Maybe they are only brass horns, which most of us would overlook.

[jazzbug1]

Take note of EBay #320338790081 for a Holton baritone sax. The serial # is 30287, which places it in the Wiedoeft era. It has the low C breather key. The engraving is not very visible and the usual "Rudy Wiedoeft Model" banner is not on the usual location on the right side of the bell. I've seen a few post Wiedoeft (circa 1931) horns with this feature, but the 30,000 serial # places it squarely in 1929. Could this be an elusive Wiedoeft baritone with a non-standard engraving? The only Wiedoeft baritone I've ever seen had the standard engraving. A very unusual horn, even in rough shape, and without a neck. Hope it gets a good home.

[LaPorte]

Take note of EBay #320338790081 for a Holton baritone sax. The serial # is 30287, which places it in the Wiedoeft era. It has the low C breather key. The engraving is not very visible and the usual "Rudy Wiedoeft Model" banner is not on the usual location on the right side of the bell. I've seen a few post Wiedoeft (circa 1931) horns with this feature, but the 30,000 serial # places it squarely in 1929. Could this be an elusive Wiedoeft baritone with a non-standard engraving? The only Wiedoeft baritone I've ever seen had the standard engraving. A very unusual horn, even in rough shape, and without a neck. Hope it gets a good home.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320338790081&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26sbrftog%3D1%26fcl%3D3%26 catref%3DC6%26from%3DR2%26satitle%3D320338790081%2 6sacat%3D16231%2526catref%253DC6%26bs%3DSearch%26s argn%3D-1%2526saslc%253D2%26sadis%3D200%26fpos%3D47169%26s abfmts%3D1%26ftrt%3D1%26ftrv%3D1%26saprclo%3D%26sa prchi%3D%26fsop%3D32%2526fsoo%253D2%26coaction%3Dc ompare%26copagenum%3D1%26coentrypage%3Dsearch%26fv i%3D1

Interesting find, Mr. Jazzbug1! It's a pre-Rudy Wiedoeft horn without 'RudyWiedoeft model' banner, built in late 1927.

#292, page 15 updated.

[LaPorte]

Trumpet mouthpieces, peashooters and guns...
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Biography%20and%20Background.html

[Walter Webb]

OK, you Holton Sax fanatics. Here is a split bell-key, high serial number (#39620 with R and Eb) Rudy Key Low C vent, No Rudy Wiedoeft Banner on the bell, plus the usual master keys and a spatula hi F. What's with that? Why doesn't it have the Bell Keys on one side? Please chime in with some clarification.

I have a typical Elhart, Wisconsin alto #25677. It plays really sweet, with a lot of flexibility from soft to loud. Middle C down to A seem weak and stuffy, and I donpt know why. Iit has the hi F key posts soldered in and threaded, but no spatula, rod or lifter parts. Maybe the factory used a body with those posts and didn't install the hi F parts. Maybe someone removed them for some idiotic reason, and tossed them into the bushes. God only knows what has been done to these horns over the years.

[Walter Webb]

Sorry: here is the link to see it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=110349891309

Forgot to mention that the G# key is not a circular pearl like the Rudy, but the older rounded rectangle thingie.
Walter

[LaPorte]

Welcome to SOTW. To classify this Holton (SN#39620) alto I apply to a "PROFESSIONAL" model, recently discussed here:

Some cool Holtons have really been turning up lately. Here's another one. Have you ever seen a "Professional" model? It's an alto on ebay. Serial number 39608 and has the single letter R as in Rudy. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380091787642

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax07.jpg

C/Eb keys made from tooling brought over from LaPorte:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax05.jpg

"master" keys:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax04.jpg

serial and 'R'

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax013.jpg

keyguard:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/sax010.jpg


Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPorte
"HOLTON alto saxophone, the 'PROFESSIONAL'

engraving:
PROFESSIONAL
HOLTON
ELKHORN
WIS

*rare floral engraving found until now on one other saxophone (bari series 270)
*new 'HOLTON'-characters
*no 'made by'
*serial number #39603 (one of the highest 5 digit numbers seen)
*additional 'R' usually seen on the 'Rudy Wiedoeft model', but
*no specific 'Rudy'-features (C-vent key, neck with tuning-slide mpc receiver) except
*LH bell keys
*'masterkeys' like on all Revelation I and R.W.mod.
*new LH pinky key-table
*LaPorte type RH pinky keys and joint rings
*new keygards (LH bell keys)
*new bow protector
...
My conclusions in short:
Made 1931 during the depression from available tooling (no money for new machines!). The contract with Rudy Wiedoeft was just released, but there had been some body tubes already stamped with an 'R' and a serial number higher than any R.W. model. At the same time Holton experimented to create new models to meet the needs of the market. The 'PROFESSIONAL' could be regarded as a precurser of the 203/204 (ResoTone) although there are many differences.

The phase of experimentation can be reckoned also by the fact, that short after the 'PRO' Holton produced some 'technical' R.W. models without according engraving (e.g. SN #40145). There were no legal issues as the 'Rudy Wiedoeft model' was a pure Holton design with a Holton patent (R.W. was a player, no technician or designer). During the depression Holton might have produced professional saxophones mainly by customer's order."

The existance of the alto SN#39620, which is only 17 numbers higher than the 'PROFESSIONAL' confirms the conclusions given above.

Basically the 1931 made alto SN 39620 is a Revelation Ib (see model list #80, page4) including additional C-vent key.

Interesting fact: The 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft' model - introduced 1927 - is virtually the same (C-vent key, split bell), see the bariton jazzbug1 found on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320338790081&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26sbrftog%3D1%26fcl%3D3%26 catref%3DC6%26from%3DR2%26satitle%3D320338790081%2 6sacat%3D16231%2526catref%253DC6%26bs%3DSearch%26s argn%3D-1%2526saslc%253D2%26sadis%3D200%26fpos%3D47169%26s abfmts%3D1%26ftrt%3D1%26ftrv%3D1%26saprclo%3D%26sa prchi%3D%26fsop%3D32%2526fsoo%253D2%26coaction%3Dc ompare%26copagenum%3D1%26coentrypage%3Dsearch%26fv i%3D1

Felix

[LaPorte]

I have a typical Elhart, Wisconsin alto #25677. It plays really sweet, with a lot of flexibility from soft to loud. Middle C down to A seem weak and stuffy, and I donpt know why. Iit has the hi F key posts soldered in and threaded, but no spatula, rod or lifter parts. Maybe the factory used a body with those posts and didn't install the hi F parts. Maybe someone removed them for some idiotic reason, and tossed them into the bushes. God only knows what has been done to these horns over the years.

Your alto is a 'Revelation' model (Ib) built 1926, short after reintroducing spatula front 'F' key (1925/1926) by Holton. Seems that somebody removed it later. Hope you find a 'parts-horn' for replacement.

Felix

[LaPorte]

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/1405_1.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/13b8_1.jpg

The engraving of this COLLEGIATE clarinet SN#13940 indicates, that it was built in the CollegiateI era (1928-1930/31). COLLEGIATE I saxophone numbers range from 31xxx until 39xxx which shows that Holton used separate numbering for saxophones and other woodwind.

Felix

[Walter Webb]

I shall refer to saxes like this as "FrankenRudy," after the Dear Dr Frankenstein, who assembled and breathed life into various human body parts taken from the cemetary.

I wonder why it has the split bell keys, when it seems all the altos bell keys had gone to one side? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=110349891309
Why? Because they had some old Revelation 1b bells on the shelf that needed to be used up.....or an old fashioned customer ordered one and said, "I want the split bell keys, not on one side." Does the horn work any better with bell keys on one side? Split bell keys were abandoned by everyone in the 30's, so what would the advantage be to having them split?

I am thinking that many of these bows, bells, necks and body tubes were interchangeable, which allowed them to assemble a sax off the parts shelf--this bow with C vent with that bell with split keys, with that sliding sleeve neck, with these stacks that go with that bell.

If you were crazy, you could unsolder all the parts of your Holton saxes from this era, and reassemble your own FrankenRudy. Crazy yes, I am, but not that completely insane.

[geauxsax]

Why? Because they had some old Revelation 1b bells on the shelf that needed to be used up.....or an old fashioned customer ordered one and said, "I want the split bell keys, not on one side."

My Revelation series II (per breakdown on page 4 of this thread) is only a few numbers off (39448)--a contemporary horn as opposed to being a significantly older model.

[LaPorte]

My Revelation series II (per breakdown on page 4 of this thread) is only a few numbers off (39448)--a contemporary horn as opposed to being a significantly older model.

Your Holton tenor is exactly what I was thinking of.:D
I've just altered the year of manufacture in the model list to 1931 according to the announced Serial Number Chart.

Felix

[LaPorte]

Holton serial numbers

http://cgi.ebay.com/1920-Holton-Revelation-Trumpet-w-Heim-Mpce-and-case_W0QQitemZ320339193639QQihZ011QQcategoryZ16214 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

We do know now, that Holton used separate sets of numbers for woodwind and brass from 1918 to 1931.

Furthermore we have (within these categories) separations between different types of brass on the one hand and between saxophones and other woodwinds on the other.

Here is a trumpet 'Revelation' model SN #70080. Looking up the number on one of the known Holton charts on internet (copyright: Gordon Cherry) we come to 1920 as year of manufacture.

How reliable is this list?

Let us test it:

Mr.jazzbug1 gave us Nov. 15-2007 great info about two documented instruments. First was his C-soprano #18319 which was shipped out of the factory 11-18.1924. "The other instrument was my friend's Holton cornet, #63323, which was shipped on 3-2-1928."

Looking up the number in Gordon's list we find the year of manufacture: 1928. O.K. Let's have a closer look. What we can differenciate from the chart (Range of numbers: 63,300 to 63,549) is: Holton produced in 1928 ca. 250 cornets; that corresponds to an average of 21 per month. Purely arithmetically the result is 44 or a serial number of 63343, applied to march 2nd. Difference to the SN (63323): 20. That is a great result and at the same time evidence of the precision of the Holton Serial Number List valid for brass only applied to the years (1917)/1918 - 1931.

Felix

to be continued

[Walter Webb]

Here is a Revelation Bari ser #117144, no extra keys, nickel guards and keys, the regular floral engraving from mid twenties, stamped Revelation on the bell. I am thinking this must be a later model. Any guess as to when?
item 310120915858

[geauxsax]

Here is a Revelation Bari ser #117144, no extra keys, nickel guards and keys, the regular floral engraving from mid twenties, stamped Revelation on the bell. I am thinking this must be a later model. Any guess as to when?
item 310120915858

Walter,
Check out around post #270 on this thread--a tenor sn 120XXX was listed as being from 1937, and LaPorte lists Revelation IIIs (IIIs being the ones that actually say "Revelation" as beginning in 1935. That would put this in the '35-37 range.

As far as that Bari, it has been on ebay a long time, and is apparently a relaq. However, from the pics, it certainly seems to be nicely done. I'd like to try that one out!

[geauxsax]

Holton alto, sn 26542 with from F and extra keys.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Holton-Alto-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ250373537691QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ LH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item250373537691&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Downside: non-original neck

Possible upside: Burnished gold finish maybe? (yeah, I know it says "orig lacquer" finish in the ad)

If burnished gold, then another Holton alto neck wouldn't be very hard to get, at least in bare brass or silver.

What do you guys think?

[Walter Webb]

Looking at the fotos closely, it would appear that the golden color is plated gold, possibly burnished in parts. Didn't they burnish highlights or sections on saxes in those days, and not the entire horn, which would be too much work?

The neck is wrong, for sure, but I have a parts horn just like it, in silver, with a good neck. I bought it cheap to take off the hi F mechanism for my Rev. 1b, which had the posts but no other parts. Oh, it has green rollers, too. The junker actually plays well, even with the back part of the bell bend over like a squashed hat, and the low C post broken loose.

I am waiting to take delivery of a Rudy alto, from eBay last week, so I think I won't try for the golden Z250373537691.
Will post pics of Rudy here if I can figure out how.

[geauxsax]

Looking at the fotos closely, it would appear that the golden color is plated gold, possibly burnished in parts. Didn't they burnish highlights or sections on saxes in those days, and not the entire horn, which would be too much work?

The neck is wrong, for sure, but I have a parts horn just like it, in silver, with a good neck. I bought it cheap to take off the hi F mechanism for my Rev. 1b, which had the posts but no other parts. Oh, it has green rollers, too. The junker actually plays well, even with the back part of the bell bend over like a squashed hat, and the low C post broken loose.

I am waiting to take delivery of a Rudy alto, from eBay last week, so I think I won't try for the golden Z250373537691.
Will post pics of Rudy here if I can figure out how.

My Rudy alto I bought from Bruce Bailey is burnished all-over (a terrific horn too!). The satin finish is more common, but these all-burnished models do exist. Bruce had another burnished alto (non-Rudy) too, in spectacular "artist"-style engraving. SOTWer "Connie" bought it if I'm not mistaken. I've also seen others with the green rollers too. My Gold Rudy below: (edit: My Rudy's finish looks a lot more like the ebay alto in person--I just take crappy pictures)
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/saxNovember002.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/saxNovember003.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/saxNovember004.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/saxNovember005.jpg

[Walter Webb]

Here is my understanding of Gold Plate vs Burnishing, which may be mistaken: Burnishing is to hand apply soft gold with a rounded smooth steel tool, rubbing it onto the horn. Gold Plate is electroplating. Looking at your Gold Rudy, I believe you have two visible burnished parts: inside the Rudy banner, and in the floral engraving, which have a different color than the rest of the horn.

Perhaps someone can explain burnishing better than I.
Walter

[geauxsax]

Walter,
Burnishing explained coutesy of Cybersax:
http://www.cybersax.com/QA/Q&A_Saxophone_Finish_Techniques.html

[LaPorte]

Here is a Revelation Bari ser #117144, no extra keys, nickel guards and keys, the regular floral engraving from mid twenties, stamped Revelation on the bell. I am thinking this must be a later model. Any guess as to when?
item 310120915858

Post 171:
"Some thoughts about Holton models and years of production

The engraving "Revelation" is a rare find on Holton saxophones. But we do know from vintage advertising, that "Revelation" was the term for all main or professional series horns (including brass!) except those, which were signed different: "Collegiate", "Rudy Wiedoeft Model", "Beaufort American", "ResoTone" and of course stencils like "Beaufort" and "The Special". The newly listed bass saxophone (Conn) is (although not built by Holton himself) a "Revelation" too, as it has the corresponding engraving. Other companies (e.g. Lyon&Healy), which had no own production of certain types of saxophones did so. My baritone made in LaPorte by Holton is a 'Revelation', too.

While the model names "Revelation" and "Collegiate" were continued, 'Three digit series' were introduced in the mid thirties. In some cases the second digit (230,231; 240,241) seems to correlate with alto, tenor, bari etc., but the first ones (201,204..) and the later (566, 577) apparently do not follow this line.

I do not try longer to understand the logic behind and take the numbers just as terms of serials. In order to find out if they are new saxophones or just updates we have to compare their features and occasionally make further examinations (e.g. exact measures, proportions).

The good news: Years of production can looked up with good results in the usual serial number list, originally published by Gordon Cherry 15 years ago, better known at present as "Lars Kirmser's".

Let's have a closer look on this interesting record of serial numbers. It's one of the best and worse SN-list existing for saxophones at the same time! It depends on how we are using it. Essentials:

Be sure the SN# you are looking up has 6 digits! Looking up 5 digit numbers or lower is misleading and the result is a difference of about 12 years! That's because we have this serial number registry: to create a new serial number list for all Holton saxophones (except stencils) and I'm confident we soon will reach this goal!"

So if you look up the number #117144 at any Holton SN chart (e.g. Dr Rick; Lars Kirmser; Saxgourmet; Saxquest; Holton Loyalist) you'll find the real year of manufacture: (late) 1934

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Those photos are better than the ones I take! I will try to get some photos of another Holton non-Rudy I have in satin gold plate that I am selling. It is the same finish as the common Conns and Bueschers. Also it does have those green rollers that seem to be a Holton only thing. For a long time I preferred the sating gold but since I got a burnished Martin tenor, I am "adjusting". Here is a burnished gold plated Buescher TT I have:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/bueschergoldiv/
Regarding the "rubbing" of the plating, I have a Martin alto on which you can actually see the faint lines on the keywork unlike today's plating where it is just put on over bright silver plate.

[LaPorte]

Post #363 Holton Serial Numbers revised.

[Farina_man]

Members interested in seeing another gold-plated Rudy might like to look at EBay no. 270343783763 which is my alto, currently for sale.

[LaPorte]

Members interested in seeing another gold-plated Rudy might like to look at EBay no. 270343783763 which is my alto, currently for sale.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270343783763&indexURL=6&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

According to the latest level of research the whole line of 'R.W.model' saxophones was introduced 1928 except C-melody which was introduced already 1925. Your alto was made in 1929.

Interesting advertising. Would you please add a sharp photo to this thread?

It seems that we come to a really thrilling point now.:D
..."but the advertising leaflet which I have pictured below quite specifically states that these instruments were first produced in 1927"... Would you please give us the exact formulation?

Thank you.

Felix

#292, page 15 updated.

[LaPorte]

Are there Courturier saxes marked as Couturiers? If so, does anyone have one?

Here is a C melody with magnificant engraving SN#8527, made by the E.A. Couturier Band Instrument Company 1923 in LaPorte:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1930s-40s-Silver-Plate-Couturier-C-Melody-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ230326232749QQihZ013QQcategoryZ 119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Felix

[Walter Webb]

What finish does this Courtier have? How do suppose the dark color happened? Could it be bare brass, with patina?
Walter

[bruce bailey]

I think it is really badly tarnished silver plate.

[LaPorte]

Perhaps the factory was pressed into wartime work. Perhaps making metal parts for…?

This might be a firm lead, as it would explain some contradictory info's about Holton history.

To narrow down the time Holton continued producing saxophones, I would like to suggest a registry for low Holton serial numbers - only four digit numbers.


Here is the beginning:

...

[LaPorte]

Early Holton's Serial Number Registry (four digits only)

C-melody

#9501 sp

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200313312800&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

[Walter Webb]

Regarding this Holton C-melody: What year was this made?
#9501 sp http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

When did Holton start the floral bell engraving, and abandon this sparse name-only and the 5 little lines above? When did they add the master keys?

Second: I can't blame the seller for the terrible fotos. They don't know any better, but I can't tell if it has the hi F spatula due to a lack of side shots and close ups.

Third: Recently there was talk of a Couturier-Holton connection. This one seems to have beveled tone holes like a Martin. Is it a real Couturier or a stencil of something else? http://cgi.ebay.com/1930s-40s-Silver-Plate-Couturier-C-Melody-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ230326232749

Thanks, Walter of Nevada City, CA USA

[bruce bailey]

The first one comes up as a dead link for me. The second one was made by Courturier before L&H and Holton.

[LaPorte]

Regarding this Holton C-melody: What year was this made?

Early in 1922

When did Holton start the floral bell engraving...?

1922 on saxophones, on brass much earlier.

When did they add the master keys?

The 'master keys' were included from the very start 1917 in Chicago.

...but I can't tell if it has the hi F spatula due to a lack of side shots and close ups.

It does not have spatula front 'F'. Front 'F' was reintroduced 1926.



Recently there was talk of a Couturier-Holton connection.

Ernest Albert Couturier and Frank Holton were friends. Together they designed great cornets and trumpets.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1930s-40s-Silver-Plate-Couturier-C-Melody-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ230326232749[/QUOTE]

This one seems to have beveled tone holes like a Martin.

Similiar, not exactly like a Martin.

Is it a real Couturier ...?

Yes, a real 'E.A. Couturier Co', no stencil.



From #9, Lyon&Healy alto sax:

"1916, Couturier formed his own company with investors, bought out Seidel Co. in Elkhart (anybody seen any instruments by William Seidel?) and moved there in 1918 (maybe late '17 still searching) moved to LaPorte in Oct. 1918 and went into receivership Oct. 4,1923. Lyon & Healy bought the factory in 1924 and continued to make saxophones and trumpets ... in LaPorte (marked Chicago) until April 1928 when they sold the equipment to Holton.
The last Couturier serial numbers were late 10,000, apparently L&H continued the series and went to about 19,000, then made some with 200 and 201,000 serial numbers." (Steve Mumford)

I'm working on a 'E.A.Couturier/Lyon&Healy Reconstructed Serial Number List'. SN# 16932 can undoubtly be applied to the year 1925. Made by Lyon&Healy in the LaPorte factory; no stencil.

Felix

[LaPorte]

C-melody #9501
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200313312800&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

[LaPorte]

Ernest Albert Couturier and Frank Holton were friends. Together they designed great cornets and trumpets.

Here is one (ca.1912), note the floral engraving on the bell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Frank-Holton-New-Proportion-Chicago-Couturier-Cornet_W0QQitemZ220368130049QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBra ss_Instruments?hash=item220368130049&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

[soybean]

Until we get a sharper photo, this will have to suffice:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/HoltonRudyBrochure.jpg

[jimzeen]

I have a c melod sax that says 'Made By Coutuier La Porte Ind with small flower engraved . . . stamped on back is C 8624 L . . . no front F key . . . I also have a King tenor 'The H. N. White Co. Cleveland O . . . U. S. 264481' . . . I wonder when they were made?

[bruce bailey]

The C melody would be someime in the early 20s and the King about 1942.

[LaPorte]

Thank you for the info, Jimzeen.

As Bruce Bailey said, your Couturier C melody (silverplated?) is built in the early twenties, most probably 1923. I've added it to the E.A.Couturier List.




'Made By * Couturier * LaPorte * IND.'

Soprano
# 10428 silverplated, goldplated keys

Alto
# 654x
# 8807 relacquered*
# 8865 silverplated
# 9326 s.p.*
# 9363 s.p. missing neck

Tenor
# 69xx s.p.
# 7715 s.p.

C melody
# 7209 s.p.
# 7662 s.p.
# 7818 g.l.
# 7881 g.l.
# 7922 s.p.
# 8311 s.p.
# 8527 s.p. special engraving
# 8624

http://cgi.ebay.com/COUTURICH-C-MELODY-SAX_W0QQitemZ180325432519QQihZ008QQcategoryZ119030 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Felix


This list containes only SN before the Couturier Band Instrument Company went into receivership Oct. 4 th 1923. Stencils (e.g. Gretsch) are not included.

Updated 03-01-2009

[geauxsax]

Are there Courturier saxes marked as Couturiers? If so, does anyone have one?

Here is a C melody with magnificant engraving SN#8527, made by the E.A. Couturier Band Instrument Company 1923 in LaPorte:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1930s-40s-Silver-Plate-Couturier-C-Melody-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ230326232749QQihZ013QQcategoryZ 119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Felix

This C Mel sure got decent money--600+ for silver plate needing new pads/overhaul!

[LaPorte]

This C Mel sure got decent money--600+ for silver plate needing new pads/overhaul!

The Couturier Alto saxes sound really great (my favourite :)). Jazzbug1 knows how the Couturier C melody's sound. Hope he will tell us occasionally. The sold one above has quite a rare engraving, which I never saw before.

Felix

[jimzeen]

Thank You Bruce Baily, Jimzeen

[jimzeen]

Thank You LaPorte, jimzeen

[LaPorte]

Thanks to Farina_man we have sharper pictures now:

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Holtoncatalogue1309004.jpg

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Holtoncatalogue1309003.jpg

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Holtoncatalogue1309001.jpg

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Holtoncatalogue1309002.jpg

Felix

[LaPorte]

Interesting Holton logo inside the original case of a REVELATION I alto #12573 (1923):

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/mq343.jpg

I've found some more indications that Holton kept a branch or head office in chicago after starting new in Elkhorn, e.g. the brand 'Beaufort American' marked 'Chicago' which he used together with C.G. Conn.

[LaPorte]

Early Holton's Serial Number Registry (four digits only)

C-melody

#9501 sp

Alto

#6311 sp


http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-FRANK-HOLTON-Alto-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ320346644476QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ LH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item320346644476&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1546%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200313312800&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

The list grows 100%:).

[jazzbug1]

Farina-- Please look carefully at the bottom of the Wiedoeft brochure. Mine says in fine print, March 1, 1929. My copy must have been printed during peak production, as the Rudy models (probably 95% were altos) are mostly from 1929.

[LaPorte]

...as my brochure introducing the Rudy model is printed "March, 1928".

"...Mine says in fine print, March 1, 1929."

1928 or 1929? Or do you refer to two different brochures? Would you like to post a photo (or some) on SOTW?

Felix

[Farina_man]

Hi Jazzbug, I've looked very carefully and I can't find any date relating to the RW models apart from the 1927 quoted in the text..... sorry!

[bruce bailey]

Do the Courturier models also ahve the L shaped G# lever that works the low C# too, the interlocking palm keys and the double hinged neck like the L&Hs do? Here is one of mine and I was wondering how different it is from the Courturier and Courturier Holtons.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/3032358243/