Kohlert Stencil Confusion

[TommyD69]

I have been reading as much as I can find about Kohlert saxophones, specifically 55, 57, 58, and 59's. I have seen web articles stating that the 50 somethings were stencils, I have seen other articles that said they were real Kohlerts made by Kohlert. I know great strides have been made by some dedicated sax men out there who are trying to document these horns for the rest of us to enjoy, but I am still confused about stencils and the keilwerth connection, and what is a REAL Kohlert. Finally, If I can find someone who is willing, does anyone think trading my YTS-62II for a Kohlert '57 is a "good trade"? I really want one of these horns!

[Sax Hut]

If it's the sound you've experienced and must have, no arguments. But if you haven't played one, best that you do so before getting too serious about swapping. The Kohlert might feel lighter, neck angle will still be comfortable, keywork swift, pearl touches large, LH table spatula heavy (unless you disable the articulation toggle), and the RH side keys will be far north of what you are used to.

[spiderjames]

In 1956, Kohlert sold a stencil of an Amati that was essentially a Keilwerth Tone King. I had one briefly and it had the JK logo on the back below the thumbhook. These are not true Kohlerts and technically not true keilwerths either but are identical to the tone kings. the Kohlert horns that preceded and followed these are better IMO. Kohlert also stencilled horns for dozens of different companies including Sears and Robuck (silvertone). I

personally would prefer a Kohlert 57 to a Yamaha 62II but I don't have any idea what these Yamahas are worth. You might be trading down in monetary terms. I think a 57 in good condition is worth maybe $800.00 average? They actually sell well above and below that. They tend to be all over the place in price. I am judging this from EBay sales that I have seen.

[xax]

I have been reading as much as I can find about Kohlert saxophones, specifically 55, 57, 58, and 59's. I have seen web articles stating that the 50 somethings were stencils, I have seen other articles that said they were real Kohlerts made by Kohlert. I know great strides have been made by some dedicated sax men out there who are trying to document these horns for the rest of us to enjoy, but I am still confused about stencils and the keilwerth connection, and what is a REAL Kohlert. Finally, If I can find someone who is willing, does anyone think trading my YTS-62II for a Kohlert '57 is a "good trade"? I really want one of these horns!
Hey Tommy,
I'm as confused as you are...I have seen Kohlert '57s (and stencils)with 2 different types of necks (the "wattle" neck and Martin-ish neck), 2 different pinky tables, 2 different types of bell/bow joints and (I think) 2 different types of F# key mechanics...!? :?

[spiderjames]

There was a distinct progression in design through the 50s. The winnenden had left hand bell keys, the pinky keys were squarish like the later '57. Man in the moon neck.

The 55 was like the Winnenden with rounded pinky table and less elaborate keyguards. M/I/T/M neck

The 56 has the Amati/Keilwerth Tone King stencil. not a true Kohlert.

The 57 switched to RH bell keys and the pinky cluster from the Winnenden. M/I/T/M/ neck.n Keyguards changed to sheet metal type with adjustable felts.

In 58-59 The pinky cluster changed again with an extension on the Bb Like older Conns or Kings from the 20s. The Eb/C keys became more rounded.

In the sixties the man in the moon neck went away.

All except the Amati have the distinct Kohlert bell to body brace.

Most of the horns that Kohlert stencilled for other companies fall in the post 57 category with some exceptions. There are some 55 and 57 stencils out there. I have never seen any earlier stencil but I am reasonable sure they do exist since most other companies were doing the same.

Some of the styles may crossover years as well. For example; I have seen older looking horns (56?) that looked like the 57 with a tunable neck. Perhaps not the original neck? Stencils may use older styles. Companies tend to use up old parts that are in stock etc...

[michaelbaird]

I've got a 57 alto in need of a repad, but I can tell that once it is repadded, it will be as good as any horn out there. I would trade it if the Kohlert is in good shape and doesn't need alot of work. A $400.00 repad is no big deal for a horn like that and I highly recommend Selmer domed resonator pads, if that is all it needs then definitely trade it or just try to talk them down.

[spiderjames]

What's a Yamaha 62II worth?

[TommyD69]

I have my 72 Selmer Mark VI alto (that my mom bought for me 35 years ago), that I will NEVER get rid of. So another Alto is out of the question (according to my wife) :cry: I really want a tenor (that's what I play most of the time now), and it seems that ANY Kohlert mid to late 50's tenor is harder to find than BIG FOOT! But, I will continue my search. Also, I agree, A trade of my YTS-62II for a Kohlert '57 tenor is a little (lot) lop sided (plus I have become dependant on the high F# key), and I have no idea why someone would want to trade a '57 away, but, I will keep searching... Just don't tell my wife!!! :D

[TommyD69]

I paid 1,800 for my YTS-62II four years ago (brand new), they are up to 2,500 new now. I am super anal about my horns, and my 62II still looks brand new. I have played it alot during "band season" here in Ohio, and I don't practice as much as I sould, but I DO practice (gotta keep my chops in working order). Used, I have no idea what a 62II is worth. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.... Dont tell my wife that either!!!

[spiderjames]

Your yamaha may be worth more than a Kohlert 57 at this point. You might be better off selling it to fund the Kohlert and pocket the difference. or keep both.

I have a couple of 59 Kohlert stencils that I be overhualing soon and will be up for sale reasonably cheap if you would be interested. the stencils are identical to their branded counterparts. let me know if you would be interested.

[michaelbaird]

I have a Deluxe tenor that I bought for $500.00 off of ebay and had it repadded with domed resonators. It is my back-up tenor to my VI. I missed it, had to play it last night after reading this thread. It is so damn solid and has such a great complex sound. I can make things vibrate in the room.

[TommyD69]

I hear ya brother... I am vibrating just thinking about it....

[michaelbaird]

Check this out http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150175885826&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=005 I have high hopes! I have a Kohlert bass clarinet that really vibrates too!

[michaelbaird]

Man, The piccolo arrived today. OMG, it is everything I hoped for. It's a damn shame the original Kohlerts aren't making instruments anymore

[Peterogping]

Tommy,
Kohlert being German, the best ebay site to look for Kohlerts is ebay.de. However, I must admit that the tenor 57 never shows up. I have looked for two years. I found my 1954 Winnenden there two years ago, a superbe horn. I doubt the 57 can be much better, but I am still curious. Winnenden models have come up a couple of times.
Good luck with your search.

[michaelbaird]

Here you go: http://cgi.ebay.com/Saxophone-Vintage-Kohlert-Tenor_W0QQitemZ180179462854QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1623 2QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[TommyD69]

Already got this horn in my watch list.... Looks like a 1954 Winnenden stencil based on the serial number. The left side bell keys, the wire key guards, the "man in the moon" neck, and that distinctive bell support all point towards an authentic Kohlert early 50's horn. And if it plays as good as Peterogping '54 does, I will be pleased!! Just wish the seller accepted PayPal... That’s the only negative I can find..... :D

[Sax Hut]

Already got this horn in my watch list.... Looks like a 1954 Winnenden stencil based on the serial number. The left side bell keys, the wire key guards, the "man in the moon" neck, and that distinctive bell support all point towards an authentic Kohlert early 50's horn. And if it plays as good as Peterogping '54 does, I will be pleased!! Just wish the seller accepted PayPal... That’s the only negative I can find..... :D

In the description he does state that he accepts "Pay Pal transfers".

[michaelbaird]

You just get addicted to the sound. If I was going to play classical, it would be my Deluxe Tenor with a good hard rubber mouthpiece.

[spiderjames]

Already got this horn in my watch list.... Looks like a 1954 Winnenden stencil based on the serial number. The left side bell keys, the wire key guards, the "man in the moon" neck, and that distinctive bell support all point towards an authentic Kohlert early 50's horn. And if it plays as good as Peterogping '54 does, I will be pleased!! Just wish the seller accepted PayPal... That’s the only negative I can find..... :D

I am watching this one as well. Don't think I'm going to bid though. I have enough saxes laying about to fill up my spare time. This one should be a nice player for sure.

The last one of these silvertones I saw on EBay finish around $800.00. The word's gettin' around.

Maybe we should all keep quiet:D

[michaelbaird]

I'm not going to bid on this one. I need another sax like another hole in my head. I just got the Kohlert metal clarinet also...I have high hopes for it being a worthy specimen as well.

[Peterogping]

Tommy, Apart from the rolled toneholes, it looks exactly like mine, just a little more shiny. Good luck with the auction.

[DYB101]

A year passed since this thread was active and I find I have a related question. The horn in question was offered on e-bay, Item number: 320318743914, description "CONN STENCILE SILVERTONE Tenor Saxophone
Rolled Tone Holes" (19 excellent, detailed pics).

The gentleman selling appears to be an appraiser and, in any event, has impressed me with his honesty and effective communication. Confusion on my part arose after the sale, however, when I was reveiwing the wealth of information on cybersax.com and learned: "If a sax has two right bell holes you can scratch Conn off the list -- no matter where you happen to read the information. Didn't happen." As shown, the tenor I've purchased, indeed, has two RTHs. Other details indicative of a Conn noted by Bear on cybersax (posts, neck screw on left side) seem to rule out Conn.

I am humbled by the collective wisdom of the SOTW community; can you please help me determine what the heck I've purchased? For the price ($356), I'll be just as happy with a Buescher stencil, more so with a Kohlert/KW. I understand the serial number on this horn is: "057x". Really would love to be more definite about where Sears got this tenor...

Many thanks!
Dave

[spiderjames]

I have one of these. Also a Silvertone. I've seen them under many different names. My best guess is a Huller. Ive seen Hullers that had similar features (ie; Eb/C key shape LH pinky key, Hard right angle front F key, Fleur de lis bell guard, etc...) a second guess would be one of the other companies that later became B&S (Adler?). I haven't Got mine completely playable but the initial trial was favorable. Very similar to other German/Czech horns. Well engineered. Should be a good player.

[DYB101]

Thanks Spider! Very helpful.

BTW, I've now spoken to the seller who is, as I thought, a very honest guy. He is willing to refund the price as he agrees, the tenor is not a Conn. He is still researching, and forwarded and e-mail from a collector basically suggesting this particular horn appears to be a Kolhert stencil (judging from the rolled tone holes & right side bell keys).

His second guess was right on the money with yours comment: "The fact that it has a lower stack G# trill key puts it's manufacture in the 50's at the latest. That is most likly a Kohlert or some other Euro. brand. Still looks like a quality horn though."

Further thoughts much appreciated. Comments received so far very helpful! I'll keep you advised on how this comes out. Hope your Huller turns out great.

Dave:space3:

[xax]

I doubt it's a Huller. Haven't looked at any Kohlerts lately.The key guards look like D&J so how about a stencil of a Kohlert. Or maybe a Kohlert made for Sears. You will recall the story of why Kohlert went under; They were locked into a contract to sell to a large American conglomerate at a fixed price. That turned out over time to be a losing deal. While no one seems to know what company it was, Sears (Silvertone) was suggested as a possiblilty.

[spiderjames]

Anything is possible but other than the rolled tone holes there's not much that says Kohlert. Probably one of the other companies from that area. Amati, Huller, B&S etc... there were a lot of smaller ones too.

I wouldn't be too quick to send it back. If you are looking for a good playing tenor this could be it. Maybe negotiate something with the seller and keep it?

[TommyD69]

I dunno, the key guards don't look right for a Kohlert.

The bell brace is definitely NOT Kohlert.

But the octave key (button) DOES look like Kohlert.

The neck is just NOT quite right either, It's kinda like the "man in the moon", but NOT quite...

My Kohlert '57 does NOT have the G# trill key (or what ever that extra key is there between the right hand F and E keys), so it's probably not from the 50's.

I dunno what the heck it is!

:?

[DYB101]

I have my 72 Selmer Mark VI alto (that my mom bought for me 35 years ago), that I will NEVER get rid of. So another Alto is out of the question (according to my wife) :cry: I really want a tenor (that's what I play most of the time now), and it seems that ANY Kohlert mid to late 50's tenor is harder to find than BIG FOOT! But, I will continue my search... :D


Tommy,

Regarding your search for a Kohlert tenor, there is one just up on e-bay ("Kohlert Tenor Saxophone - Used Item number: 310102673290") that has a "Buy It Now" price of $599 or best offer.

Best Regards,
Dave

P.S. The Silvertone (advsertised as Conn - definitely not - possible Kohlert) arrived, as advertised in good cosmetic shape but completly unplayble. I'm fortunately to have a veteran sax tech (semi-retired but works out of a shop behind his garage) locally. We leak-tested it Monday and I saw why I could only get C, B & A. However, I'm picking it up tomorrow and have high hopes. He also opined: possible Kohlert but would like a non-stencil, or pics thereof, to compare before saying for certain. Again, many thanks for the help here from those far more expert than me!:treble:

[DYB101]

Anything is possible but other than the rolled tone holes there's not much that says Kohlert. Probably one of the other companies from that area. Amati, Huller, B&S etc... there were a lot of smaller ones too.

I wouldn't be too quick to send it back. If you are looking for a good playing tenor this could be it. Maybe negotiate something with the seller and keep it?

SJ,

Thank you for the excellent advice! I followed it and negotiated a $75 reduction in price and bought the horn. Many thanks! As I thought, the seller was a VERY honest guy, an appraiser, and quite chagrined that he'd mis-identified the horn as a Conn.

BTW, someone backed out of a recent sale of a Conn "Shooting Star" tenor and I was given a "Second Chance" at my last bid price or $299.01 (incl. shipping). The horn has arrived and I am really pleased. It's ser. #13755x, which according to the official list (http://www.conn-selmer.com/content/resources/serialno.php#Conn) makes it vintage late 1924/early 1925. I'll post a couple pics - it has lacquer wear where you'd expect; on the neck, around the thumb rest and on the non-pearl upper/lower keys you hit with your palm. Other than that, narry a dent and only surface scratches. Even my wife, who knew I had around 30 saxes when she married me, gives it admiring looks :TGNCHK:. And, she doesn't need to shop around for a Christmas present for me...

[stitch]

BTW, someone backed out of a recent sale of a Conn "Shooting Star" tenor .... It's ser. #13755x, which according to the official list (http://www.conn-selmer.com/content/resources/serialno.php#Conn) makes it vintage late 1924/early 1925.

The Shooting Stars model is much later, 1960s or so.

[DYB101]

Oh, darn. I guess I misunderstood Selmer's Conn serial number list.

Thank you for the information tho'. Do you happend to know a reliable ser. # list for Conns of those years?

Many thanks!!
Dave

P.S. Y'all are great! All the help much appreciated. The ser. # puts my tenor at 1980-1981 vintage (per http://www.musictrader.com/conn.html).

[TommyD69]

Oh, darn. I guess I misunderstood Selmer's Conn serial number list.

Thank you for the information tho'. Do you happend to know a reliable ser. # list for Conns of those years?

Many thanks!!
Dave



The Conn Loyalist Nov 4, 2008 ... If you would like to donate to the Conn Loyalist website, you will find the button to do so here: Donation Page ...
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[spiderjames]

Here's anotherone of those silvertones that just popped up on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Silvertone-Tenor-Saxophone-Keilwerth-rolled-tone-holes_W0QQitemZ120349861827QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item120349861827&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

These horns have some neat little design characteristics. The palm keys have a unusual curve to them. The side keys are arranged in sort of a stairstep configuration. I assume these were an attempt to make some ergonomic improvements.