Dolnet

[benliner]

I've been playing my Dolnet for a few months now , had some work done on it and it' playing quite well now, and still sounds really good, but still one problem, the G sharp in the upper register is unreliable, it keeps slipping into the lower register. Is anyone familiar with this problem? I presume that the fact that the G sharp is the top of the range for the lower speak hole is significant.
The serial no. is 456xxx. It's a silver plated tenor and engraved on the side is "Dolnet Paris made in France".Would that mean Paris is the model name?
The manager at Howarths in London put me on to a Guy in Dorset called Colin Driver, a member of the National Association of Musical Instrument Repairers, but there's no answer on his phone. Has anyone else heard of him? He's supposed to be an authority in Dolnet.

[stitch]

"Dolnet Paris made in France".Would that mean Paris is the model name?

The manager at Howarths in London put me on to a Guy in Dorset called Colin Driver, a member of the National Association of Musical Instrument Repairers, but there's no answer on his phone. Has anyone else heard of him? He's supposed to be an authority in Dolnet.

I think 'Paris' just means it was made there, Ben. Have you checked http://www.saxpics.com/dolnet/index.htm? You should find some info of interest there.

If you have any luck with the guy in Dorset, perhaps you could post what you discover here - I know there'd be a lot of people interested. If you can't reach him by phone, you may find a website/email address via the NAMIR site.

[Laurie]

Interesting about the breaking octave on the G#.Try removing both octave keys, to give you access to the octave nipples. Then ream them out with semi-rigid plastic material - a pruned-to -fit cotton bud stem will do ok - but dont under any circumstances use metallic objects. I've owned a fair number of Dolnets, Cartiers, Revans (all the same stable) and have rebuilt/restored rather more - and have made something of a study of these great saxes. The suffix letters I have come across seem to fall into categories A,B, C ,F ,G H and J. These I believe probably relate to the month of manufacture. A #42/44000 indicates a possible y/o/manufacture around 1955 - the dating is still imprecise, though I'm gradually compiling a jigsaw of a serial no. chart .
In my opinion the very best Dolnets were made between #38000 and 50000. Whether they are labelled 'Belair' doesn't seem to matter, much ; all Belairs and Royal Jazz horns of that pedigree were engraved either with a sinuous rose motif or a stunning 'flowerburst' tied together by a central scroll. (You can find pictures of some of my Dolnets on saxpics)Don't think that there are that many 'Dollies' around, though. The serial nos. related to other instruments as well - I've even seen a Dolnet bugle!
Dollies were never made in Paris - for a while they retained an office of sorts there- presumably because of the status! But then , so does Selmer!My research suggests that all saxes were manufactured in Mantes-la Jolie some 60km. NW of Paris in a small villa-atelier situated on the Rue de la Gare. It's still there, though Dolnet and its craftspeople have long gone. I've spoken with some of the veterans, and found the widow of artist who did some of that stunning engraving work. Pete Hales has a photo- article of mine about my last visit, which I understand he intends to include on the 'site.
Persevere with the Dolnet setup- there is no sax around which though tricky at first - is more rewarding when you get it right. Contact me if you have any further problems - I've sorted most every trick the 'Dolly' has!
Incidentally, have a look at the pix on D'Aiello's website. Look who's using a nice all-lacquer Dolly now......![/b]

[Saxa]

Laurie, if your story about Dolnet's is as interesting as your post, well I'm looking forward to reading about it. I recently obtained a Silver Plated Dolnet Low A Baritone dated 1962. The intonation is wonderful as is the rest of the Horn.

[Laurie]

Glad you liked it, Saxa!
If you are fairly sure of the y/o/m of your bari I'd be grateful to have the first four digits of the ser# - to add to the chart! So the picture grows...!

[Saxa]

Laurie,
I'll post it later this eve. I,ve e-mailed saxpics about sending some pictures for his site. I noticed there wasn't a Silver Plated Low A posted. Still working on getting them done.

[Saxa]

Laurie,
One more thing, the 1962 is engraved on the bell along with Bd of Edu New York, Dolnet and Made in Paris, France. Thats where I got the date although the serial numbers reflect the engraving.

[Saxa]

The numbers 6855X. Correction is says
Dolnet
Paris
BD of Ed NYC 1962
Made in France
if anyone who reads this and knows or knew of a person that had this sax by the name of Jimmy or knows they nick named this horn Jimmy, I'd like to talk to him or her. There is a shadow of the name on the bell lip.

[Laurie]

Interesting info, Saxa. It seems that your bari was like as not purchased by the NY public school authority, presumably as a band instrument for either college or High School use. We can't necessarily assume that 1962 stands for the year of acquisition, though it is tempting to think it might very well be. It could equally be an inventory number engraved so that
the City Finance Dept or its equivalent could keep 'tabs' on public property. It used to be regular practice here in the UK - many if not all school-owned instruments bearing their own engraved security 'log number' as distinct from the maker's serial #.Despite all this my feeling about the date of your horn without seeing it is that you're pretty close to home with an early '60's date. Dollies were still great then!

[Saxa]

Laurie, if the engraving was done after the original work was done, they did a great job of it. It looks to be factory original. Also this horn is not banged up at all. Two noticeable dings and about four dimples with no sign of any others hammered out. The Art Deco bell brace was soldered at the tube but very clean. Anyway I hope to get some pictures done soon. Thanks

[Sax Hut]

Laurie wrote:

In my opinion the very best Dolnets were made between #38000 and 50000.

Hi Laurie, could you elaborate on the qualities that you feel are lacking in the later horns? Personally I haven't got a collection of horns I can compare, but anecdotal comments here and there by others suggest to me that the older horn makers generally shifted to different brass alloys and thinner gauges over time. Would you have any details as to whether Dolnet followed that trend?

I have a 47xxx Belair tenor that I restored recently, and though I'm not a performing musician by any means, whenever I practice I tend to pick this horn (over an almost new Yani I leave in its case). It has a buttery resistance I haven't been able to get out of other horns I've tried so far. When I restored it, the only thing I could diss was the slop that had developed at some of the pivot screw hinge/posts, notably the side E and low B, Bb, and C#. Countersinking the posts made everything tight, but it had me wondering about the "softness" of the key metal. My Belair is a very "substantial" horn--seems to weigh a bit more than other tenors I've picked up. I want to buy another, but hopefully in the same SN range.

[Henry]

Laurie: From Pete's SaxontheWeb I know that you are one of the most knowledgable people on Dolnets. I have some further info for you, as well as a question. I have what I think is a superb silver-plated alto, SN 448xx, that I purchased new in the Nerherlands in the period 1955-1957. (I have lived in the States since 1960). It has no letter associated with the SN, nor any designation other than "Dolnet, Paris, Made in France". The plating is still about 99%, not a single dent or ding, and, except for two small pads, all the original (red) pads are still in place! (The horn was not played on for long periods in between.) About a year and a half ago, I sent a whole series of pics to Pete for possible inclusion in his site. Here is my question. The original pads have no resonators. Was that normal for Dolnets of that period? I am thinking of having the horn overhauled very soon. Should I opt for resonators or not? I am happy with the sound as is but most people I have consulted feel that resonators are called for. If all resonators do is make the sound "louder", I don't think I need them. (As it is, the leader of the big band I play in sometimes "accuses" me of being too loud!) What is your thought on this? Lots of thanks in advance!

Henry

[Saxa]

Laurie, well as a result of talking about my Low A Dolnet. I've reached a situtation where I need to sell my Dolnet Baritone. I'll be posting it at For Sale Forum.

[Laurie]

Wind Mill!
Qualities lacking in later horns? Well, it's very much like it is with the Selmers of similar date . The earlier saxes - particularly those from the late 40s through to the late 60's - what I term Dolnets 'Golden Twenty Years' from 1948-1968 or thereabouts - seem to display a quality of build and craftsmanship which is more frequently lacking in those later horns originating post -1970. Anecdotally, I recall an interesting conversation I had with a charming elderly lady in Mantes; she told me that while she was engaged in making the top clarinets in the Buffet workshop,her husband had been recruited to help Dolnet out in the evenings with their engraving . This wasn't some casual worker off the street , but a guy who during the day was engraving for Selmer, across the road from the Dolnet atelier! She recalled it was about 1970. Interesting that Dolnet was forced to employ in this way. It could have an innocent explanation, of course... but for a manufacturer to employ ad hoc? You judge.
The earlier horns have appreciably different configurations both in keywork and in their bows. Some still sported the auxiliary low D key to the rear of the bottom main stack,articulated by an independent lever-key which in turn depressed the main low D keycup - reminiscent of the preWW11 Bueschers and Chu Berrys. And you're right about the weight and 'temper' of the metals used - they just seem tougher,more resonant and 'ring' truer ( although this strangely does not seem to apply in the case of Dolnet's beautiful 'swansong' horn, the M70 - though I've only seen a few , and own only one.)It's this vintage of Dolnets which are for me the real classics - those with that sultry rich quality which I've yet to better, and which people are noticing. The later horns - while still bearing most of the visual attributes of the earlier classics- can sometimes be rather inferior both as to indifferent craftsmanship(rod -slackness, cured only by i.repositioning the post ii.re-rodding or iii.inserting micro-washers)and tonally, lacking something in the richness. I think its thinner /softer alloys of brass. Interestingly, these often appear to be the lacquer/nickel keyed variants - though there is no indication that they were ever intended as student instruments as all the bits correspond pretty precisely with their more illustrious predecessors. I am told , however, that some of the later all-lacquer tenors were still hot; but this I've yet to have a chance to check out .Of course, as the firm went into decline so did the standards. Instruments like the Universal and the Studium represented cheapened off shadows of the old greats...and so Dolnet passed into history.
Henry!
Another useful bit of data to add to the pattern! Thanks!
Pads?It's really what suits you, and how much of a purist you wish to remain ie how authentically original you wish your horn to be .The old plain red pads-which were a distinguishing feature of these horns and which graced almost every model in the '50s- are virtually extinct. They were a very soft leather/kid, and had a very forgiving felt insert. I have to say that I have never bothered repadding with reso-less pads , but have used domed Pisonis or- even more daring- I tried a set of the Dutch Top-Tone neoprenes on one Belair - and the results were breathtaking.The horn has far more cut and the resonance has been enhanced doubly.Interestingly, I found that volume just wasn't a problem with these pads - its like riding a well-restored vintage Harley; she'll just chunter along quietly, but then open her up and baby! will she go!
I'd opt for the resos - but the right ones!
Hope this helps, gents!
Laurie

[Sax Hut]

Interesting Laurie, but frustrating too--not enough good Dolnets out there for us all! I have one very good Belair tenor, but I'll have to be extra-careful with it I guess. I still don't understand how one can match Dolnet SNs with a particular year. Too bad there are no records left ....

[benliner]

Wow
Thanks for the response. Before I have a chance to try any of that, I should inform everyone that I was mistaken about Colin Driver. I contacted him and while he was very helpful he raid that he didn't specialise in Dolnets, so I think I had the wrong man.
So I'm still looking for Mr. Dolnet somewhere in the West Country.
My apologies to him and to the forum

[Laurie]

Benliner

It may be only coincidence but I think that they might just be referring to me. I'm Westcountry (Exmouth E.Devon). I specialise in French (and particularly Dolnet) saxes, and have given advice to Howarths and other firms on Dolnets/ models/ dating , before. Look under 'WestWind' in E.Devon Yellow Pages. I haven't supplied our phone, because I'm not sure it's OK with SOTW.[/code]

[Laurie]

Benliner !
Sorry- I should have said 'under Musical Instrument Repairers'

[benliner]

Well thanks, Laurie. I guess it must be you! I'll look up your number and be in touch some time. Haven't tried that reaming trick yet. Would that have the effect of cleaning out the crud, or would it actually widen the walls of the original bore?

[Laurie]

The octave pips on Dolnets - as with some other makes - are inclined to 'fuzz' up with a tartar-like substance over the years if not cleaned out in the course of a general service. I 've even found post-'service' crud left in them by techs who should have known better and checked them out.
The important point is that you return the fine bore of the pip to its original
diameter - and do not seek to increase it either deliberately or accidentally
by reaming out with any tool which approximates to metal. Any thin plastic spill will do, providing you can pare it , and it's robust and flexible enough not to break on you, and jam up the tube.
Cheers! L.

[Dr G]

Here're some great photos of a Dolnet curved sop at eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2575102344 .

Perhaps Saxpics could add them to the collection?

Any comments, Laurie, on the date of this horn? It seems very early.

[Canada Bob]

Laurie Wrote:
the dating is still imprecise, though I'm gradually compiling a jigsaw of a serial no. chart .
In my opinion the very best Dolnets were made between #38000 and 50000. Whether they are labelled 'Belair' doesn't seem to matter, much ; all Belairs and Royal Jazz horns of that pedigree were engraved either with a sinuous rose motif or a stunning 'flowerburst' tied together by a central scroll.

Laurie: I have recently purchased Dolnet tenor two tone (serial number 65365C). The engraving on this horn is fairly delicate and may be the "sinous rose motif" you mention above. I am interested in nailing down the date as close as possible. Perhaps you can help. I can send you some pictures for you database if you wish.

Bob

[Laurie]

The two-tones seem to have been produced from about 1960 to roughly
1966/7 - at least thats what the evidence points to, and your # no. argues for a date around '61/2 . It also squares up pretty well with the emergence of MkVl two-tones of similar vintage; if you're old enough to recall the 60's you'll recall that the bright chrome/brass combination was very much a design vogue in a lot of more everyday objects.

[Canada Bob]

:) Thanks Laurie. That comfirms my questimate based on other published seriial numbers. It is interesting to not the introduction date for the two tone models. Yes I can remember the sixties quite well as a mater of fact. Music (listening to it) was a very big part of my life in 60/61. At fifty seven, the Dolnet is my first sax. Some of the tunes from that period will be high on my list of tunes to learn. You should know, that it was, to a large degree, because of your postings to the saxpics. site and on saxontheweb. and your infectious enthusiasm for the Dolnet line, that I first thought of looking for a Dolnet tenor in "playable condition". Positive reports from owners on this and other sites seemed to second your opinion. The more I reasearched them, the more the idea apealled to me. Although I have a little more into this sax than I had hoped to spend, and it did require some "remidial work" I still think it is a bargain. I am sure that as I become more and more familliar with it, I will only grow to appriciate more.

Thanks for all of the great work you are doing to bring peoples attention to these fine instruments. I am sure that I will have questions for you from time to time, as you seem to be the Dolnet expert on the web.

Bob

[morgan]

... I'm gradually compiling a jigsaw of a serial no. chart ..

Would you like to share what you have?

[spiderjames]

I have a dolnet stencil under the universal moniker which I an trying to repair as it has sustained some damage from being dropped. I appears to be similar to the bell air line, with art deco keywork on the palm keys and Eb/C cluster. it has however a different LH cluster, bell keys on the LH side and no front F or chromatic F#. With the help of Curt at Musicmedic and some of the posters on this forum I have been able to repair most of the damage with the exception of some of the bow which had previously been worked by someone else. So far so good. Here's where I run into trouble. When I attach a strap to the strap ring, which is soldered in line with the RH thumb hook and the LH thumb button, The bell is turned hard to the players left ala M70. This would be cool except in this position the horn would be uncomfortable if not impossible to play. if I turn the horn and the neck to a normal comfortable playing position the bell is now slightly to the left. In this position the strap ring is way out of position to the left and the octave mechanism strikes the neck octave key to the left of center but it does function fine. It is as if the strap ring was soldered in the wrong place, or, more likely, bent out of position. In looking at the pictures of the M70 on Saxpics it appears that the lower stack is in a diferent relative position to the bell due to the bell being turned. On my horn it is not. it is positioned more like a traditional sax.I am sorry for the long post but I am trying to paint a clear picture. Here's my questions;#1 on a normal non M70 dolnet does the octave mechanism strike the octave key to the left of center when the neck is in a normal playing position. #2 does the bell on a Belair turn slightly to the left. #3 does anyone have any experience with this horn in particular.

[Sax Hut]

spider, on my 1950s BelAir tenor, both thumbrests, the strap ring, and the octave bridge lever are very closely lined up, and all about 30-35 degrees to the left of a vertical plane centered through the body and bell. This is about 20-25 degrees more (to the left) than a couple of other, more-modern tenors I own. I usually play standing up, and the ergonomics of the Dolnet are just fine for me, but the bell is definitely veering far to the left.

[spiderjames]

Thanks for the response. Would it be possible for you to send me some pictures of your horn for me to look at? When the neck is on properly does it line up parallel with the octave key, strap ring, and LH hook? I need some reference to put this back into alignment. I have the body straight but where to put the bell has me scratching my head.

[Sax Hut]

See

http://www.pacinfo.com/~wcm/dolnet/


for a series of pics. This is an de-lacquered Bel Air (47xxx) I restored this past spring. Hope the pics help ...

[spiderjames]

Thank you very much! These will be most helpful as my horn is I beleive a stripped down version of this one. Except the bell on mine has LH keys and is bent more to the left. I suspect due to the damage it received. Thanks again.

[benliner]

Never thought I'd start a thread that went on this long.
This is mainly for Laurie as a follow up to his advice several months ago. Still very enthusiastic about my Dolly and have joined a soul band and put it on the road. I did the cotton bud trick on the octave pip, but I didn't seem to remove any crud, and it had little or no effect. I note that the bore inside the pip is very conical, widening right out as you go inside, so you can waggle the cotton bud stem around without touching the sides of the bore of the pip at the widest part. I suppose that's how it's meant to be? Sometimes the problem is worse than at other times, so part of it might be due to my lip. and also nerves when playing on stage, when I seem to lose control of the thing more easily. I got 1/4 of the way through a terrible rehearsal on monday and couldn't figure out why the read kept closing up and I could hardly get a note out. Then noticed I forgotten to adjust the strap to the right height! pulled it up 2 inches and every thing was fine. Sometimes on stage I finish a number and realise I've tried to play the whole song with my thumb on the octave key when it shouldn't have been.

Interesting to see people venturing opinions about thumbrest positions and alignment etc. My first sax was an Amati, I never had a teacher but soon concluded independently that it would fit me better if the thumbhook was moved about a third of an inch round to the right,and an inch downward.
While looking for my first upgrade last year it seemed that several of the models I tried would benefit from the same treatment, and although I settled for the Dolnet as it was, eventually it too felt as though it was trying to go to one side, and I moved the hook on that by exactly the same amount. Now it really fits like a glove. The top thumbrest "Button" thing used to dig into the side of my thumb and I thought I might have to replace that with a modern larger flat disc shaped thing, as they spread the load better, but moving the lower hook brought it round to the correct angle and now it feels comfortable.

[robzy]

hey everyone (and laurie if he can answer too),
i'm buying my first sax and i found this "royal jazz" tenor dolnet... series n° is 57667 G or C (I can't read witch)

if you want pictures (espiecially to see the series number) please go on 10-18-2009, 07:23 PM entry from "robzy":

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?p=1259413

do you think its worth it for a first sax? what are the disadvantages of dolnet? I heard they were hard to manipulate (hard to play fast )

the guy is asking for 750€ (i live in france) and he is having it seen by a shop for any repairs that have to be done (mouthpiece cork, pads (which are for the most case new, he changed them all more or less recently) and so that the shop can certify what state it is in...
what do you think? - do royal jazzes have good reputation, are they study saxes of pro ones?
see ya,
robin :)

[milandro]

as far as prices go you cannot buy many vintage saxophones of this quality for that kind of money. I have sold a Dolnet Bel air tenor in perfect state for 800€

[JayeSF]

You have to buy it, Robzy.

(BTW...it probably wasn't a great decision to embed your comment in THIS thread, which is about a Dolnet Soprano and is from...2004 ;) )

Just keep it going on your own thread, which was more on-topic to your current situation.....

...you can also PM Laurie directly....

[Mal 2]

do you think its worth it for a first sax? what are the disadvantages of dolnet? I heard they were hard to manipulate (hard to play fast )

Only the left pinky cluster. Unfortunately Dolnet used "American style" pinky clusters into the mid-60's at least (I own one of that vintage), while Selmer started getting them right with the Balanced Action in 1936! Why it took another 35 years for the world to copy Selmer is beyond me.

This isn't as big a problem on tenor as it is on bari though (especially a Low A bari like mine).

The rest of the mechanism is fine. It has the vintage-style stacks (meaning the G# pad is on the right hand stack rather than the left, it kinda goes with the pinky key design) but personally I don't have a problem with that. Also, the bari has the right hand touches positioned somewhat higher on the horn than some other makes, and this is a good thing in my opinion. It makes it easier to play while seated, because my right thigh isn't in the way of reaching the keys.

The mechanism is not as slick as a Selmer. Despite the fact that it was made in France and has the whole Art Deco theme going on, the mechanism as a whole has a distinctly vintage American sax feel to it.

[robzy]

thanks milandro for answering all my posts (!)
=very helpfull
i'm trying to convince my father that i should go for it, he doesn't think its a safe bet...
its true I can't actually try the sax and have next to nothing concerning garanty... my teacher and a shop in Lyon have both strongly advised me not to buy something on internet and DEFINITELY not some thing you can't try or make someone you trust try it...
so ... the debate goes on at home

-"but dad, its my money!! and lots of guys on the internet say dolnets are well worth the shot!"

-"guys on internet? what guys on internet? do you know them? personally? ha! you can't trust any old one on the internet especially when money is involved , even if it IS yours!! now look at that yamaha, isn't a much safer shot?"

(most of these coversations end with me storming out of the room)

[milandro]

my young friend, your father is probably right about the Yamaha being a safe bet and I too would advise against buying a saxophone without trying it first because there are many hidden problems that regardless the greatness of a type of saxophone might not be apparent on pictures and end up costing a ot of money to fix.

On the other hand the royal Jazz is not just an ordinary saxophone but a saxophone that was played by Don Byas
http://newarkwww.rutgers.edu/IJS/instrumentsB/don-byas.html

I would strongly recommend you try the sax prior to buying it (and if you are not able to play it to the outmost have an expert try it)

You could take a risk and get a horn with way more personality than a Yamaha of the same price (even second hand at that price would have to be one of the cheapest models) could ever dream to have.........

You know it is difficult to advise you. If it was my money at my age I would do it. I know I could sell it for at least part of the money I wasn't happy with it. The Dolnet Bel Air tenor I had was good but I sold it because I could buy a Mark VII and then later on my Super 20 tenor came to me.

Both these horns were better than the Dolnet, but they were also much more expensive.

[yaucante]

Hello ! I take this opportunity to concur with Laurie when he wrote for saxpics that the M70 is a terrific horn. though not a tenor player, I really enjoy playing this new thing that is highly versatile, has very fast action in spite of its curious angle (I can't explain why), has indeed the easiest and most subtle pianissimo of all my horns, especially in the high register, all that with an evenness of tone that is pleasant. I have found a metal Dolnet mouthpiece that goes well with it but still have to test the limit of the horns with more radical pieces. In all honesty, I think it's an excellent all-round sax, as good for classical as for other types of music. :D