Super 20 "Series IV" bore and keywork changes

[Sax Hut]

On the saxpics website, Pete mentions that the Super 20s underwent "lots of experimental changes in bore" in the 380xxx to 426xxx range. I'd like to know more details, and whether some of this information is available from King (UMI) or based on secondhand reports/measurements.

As an aside, I'd also like to know whether the late-series Super 20 models (tenor specifically) incorporated the best of the changes in keywork, notably to the LH G#-Bb cluster and the octave key mechanism.

Anyone got the hard facts (and time to kill)?

[Sax Hut]

Okay all you King experts!

Did King in fact experiment that much with the bore on its Zephyr/Super 20 horns, or did it stick fairly close to the original bore dimensions all the way to the end of the line? Where might I find hard facts (not hearsay) on this subject? Does UMI have any King historians in-waiting? My gut instincts tell me they stuck with or very close to the original bore because it worked so well, and didn't have much $ to invest in new research or tooling down the road anyway.

[Sax Hut]

Getting lonely in here.... should I tap dance? taka ta taka ta ta-takakakaka ...... yea!

[shmuelyosef]

I'm also curious about that, also with respect to changes in the Zephyr line early in the S20 history. Maybe a better thing to ask is anyone out there with the capability (micrometer and machinist skills) to make measurements and submit them. Say choose the diameter of 1) the bell, 2) the bow right at the midpoint 3) the neck OD 4) some convenient midpoint, say right above the aux F#...

[Sax Hut]

My 39xxxx Zephyr tenor (with nickel plated keywork, the usual student-line touches) sez if I want something that's (maybe) better, I can't go wrong with a Super 20 around the same vintage. That's why I'm so hung up on this stuff I read on saxpics about the 380xxx-426xxx range.

Got to know!

[alsdiego]

wind_mill,

I have a 402XXX alto S20. FWIW, here's my sax tech's take on the situation. If he had unlimited funds, he'd buy a "mint" 300XXX with full pearls. He says the downside to these "early" horns is that King did indeed make some keywork improvements, particularly with the register key, I think, which show up in the later (no full-pearls) models. His second choice would be around a 400XXX, before King began cheapening the horns. He would stay away from the later Eastlake horns, which I understand some people have had a very good experience with. Just one man's opinion, altho he was the tech for Charles McPherson's S20 for many years, so he does have some credentials.

[Sax Hut]

You know, if I were certain the late-model Eastlake series of horns had pretty much the same bore, that's one thing, but having never touched a Super 20, the one thing I want to be sure of if I buy an Eastlake sight unseen is that the brass gauge and alloy is unchanged. I'm sold on heavy-gauge horns. The metal in my Zeph seems to be a heavier gauge than anything I've come across modern, but that's not to say the metal itself is harder; in fact, from my limited experience the brass tubing seems rather soft (especially the necks). I don't need pearl touches, as they only affect resale value; nice but of no relevance to the sound or action. Another assumption I'm making about Eastlakes is that they incorporated the final improvements in key mechanism. I DO want the improved octave-key mechanism and also the Selmer-style LH cluster.

Anyone with a late-model Super 20, care to comment on the metal? Heavy horn/thick gauge, or light horn/thin gauge?

Uh-oh, I'm on Halloween duty, more ghouls at the door ....

[shmuelyosef]

As far as I know, none of the S20s or Zephyrs had the tilting Bb spatula like the Selmers (never actually played a late Eastlake), but all the S20s past about 305XXX had top hinged spatula with a key layout like modern horns (big Bb with 1 or two rollers opposite G# and C#/B in the middle with rollers on both)

[Sax Hut]

all the S20s past about 305XXX had top hinged spatula

That's what I want! Thanks for this S/N tidbit.

[T.S.]

My 576xxx Eastlake tenor has very heavy brass with nickel rod construction...It is unbelievably warm and rich in the low register with subtones humming warmly under a stack of overtones... The over the top silver necked horn I tried recently, built a year later than mine, also had nickel rods, and was quite well built, but with the SML over the top neck.

[Sax Hut]

The way the market seems to be going, Eastlakes are about the only thing I might manage to purchase. Better sell my Yani T-902. (Hmm, wondering if anyone would consider a trade ....????)

[Saxturtle]

I have a 379xxx double socketed silver neck S20 tenor (I suppose that makes it a series III, huh?;). At any rate, mine does incorporate the underslung octave machanism and improved spatula design similar to 'modern' designs. One would probably be safe in assuming (hearsay ON :roll: ) that King and/or subsequent owners would not have reinstated the old tooling and manufacturing processes later (unless it represented a significant cost reduction to go back to the old way). As to the weight/mass thing: It's a boat anchor, especially compared to my '06 Buescher Tenor. It's at least as heavy as my knockabout/outdoor Christmas caroling beater Noblet, which is an UGLY boat anchor...