John Coltrane played SML?

[Yellowhorn]

I was reading a book on "A Love Supreme" and came across a photo of John Coltrane playing what appeared to be a Gold Medal or King Marigaux (not that they are that different).

[Berko]

Trane Played All Is Life On Selmer Blanced action and mark VI

[Jonathan C.]

That is a possabilty. I am sure at first he probably played any horn he could get his hands on.
He borrowed Alto's in the beggining since his family couldn't afford to buy him one. So it is a very strong possabilty that he played on a SML at least once.

[Swingtone]

Trane Played All Is Life On Selmer Blanced action and mark VI

You appear to be quite young, so I'll go easy on you. However, it's not that cut and dried. I have seen a ca. 1951 photo that clearly shows a young Coltrane playing a Super 20 tenor with full pearls. So he appears to have played a King prior to the SBA, which I have seen him holding in pics as early as 1952 or '53. So I'm guessing he wasn't on the King that long. Prior to that, in the late 40's I'm not sure what he was playing, but I'm betting it was not a Selmer. Remember, he played alto up through the late 40's, when he saw Bird live and decided to switch to tenor because he never thought he'd be able to compete with that. So I don't know what kind of alto he played, but I'm guessing it might have been a Conn, since those were all the rage back in the 40's.

[EastCoastGhost]

On a trip to japan both he and paroh sanders where given yamaha alto's as gifts they played them some at the subsequent concerts
quite gracious if you ask me

[Reedsplinter]

I wonder what axe he was playing in Earl Bostic's band back in 1952? If he played a Super 20 for any period in his career, my bet would be that it included that stint with Bostic. Just a guess, though. It does also seem likely that he played Conns early on. Is there any source for verifying these hypotheses? Biographers have a tendency not to deal with the whole history of a musician's gear, unfortunately. . . .

[Jonathan C.]

No, but I did a paper on him for school, and I remember he was very picky about his gear. He would spend hours before a concert figuring out the right combination before he went on.

[Reedsplinter]

Yep. But early on . . . before he was at the stage where all this is well known, likely things were different, as you yourself suggest above, no?

[Jonathan C.]

I completly agree. I just don't think that he would have had the money even when he started to get famous to play Selmer. It just doesn't seem likely. Later on it seems very likely that he would have enough money for a Selmer but early on, when he was in the Army it is highly unlikely.

[Agent27]

Yeah, but it's not like a Selmer cost $5,000 in those days. Does anybody know how much they were going for in relation to Conn's and other brands?

[Reedsplinter]

Yeah, but it's not like a Selmer cost $5,000 in those days. Does anybody know how much they were going for in relation to Conn's and other brands?

Yeah, but everything is relative. I could have bought a brand new Mark VI in 1968 for $800, but that might as well have been 5K in the Summer of Love.

[hakukani]

Yeah, but everything is relative. I could have bought a brand new Mark VI in 1968 for $800, but that might as well have been 5K in the Summer of Love.

I thought the summer of love was '67.

[Reedsplinter]

I thought the summer of love was '67.

Yeah, but I meant the year before. Anyway, we were on metric years where I grew up. And Mark 6s were the same price.

[Reedsplinter]

I thought the summer of love was '67.

I don't know about you but . . . . hey, what WERE you doing that summer?

[Agent27]

Yeah, but everything is relative. I could have bought a brand new Mark VI in 1968 for $800, but that might as well have been 5K in the Summer of Love.

Which is why I asked what they were going for in relation to Conn, SML's, King's, etc. :D

[Reedsplinter]

So you did. In 1965, my parents bought me a 6M brand new; they paid $495 for it. A Mark VI would have been about $700 then. This information is heavily reliant on memory, and may not be accurate, but that's the information I have filed away. That doesn't sound like much of a difference now, but the percentage of difference is not insignificant. It's why my folks bought me a Conn and not a Selmer (though I asked for a Selmer). The 6M was a great horn until the bari sax player in the high school band stepped on it. :(

[Agent27]

Using an inflation calculator @ http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
$495 in 1965 = $3,273.27 in 2007
$700 in 1965 = $4,628.87 in 2007

[Reedsplinter]

Sounds about right. This of course does not take into account the availability and pricing of used instruments. In the early 50s, say, I wonder how the price of a used 10M would have compared with that of a Balance Action. Or what the differential would have been in 1945. What was holding its value better then? Any archives of used instrument catalogs from the period? Transcripts from eBay in 1939?

[asaxman]

FWIW, I bought a one year old MK VI alto in 1968 for $350. It lasted for 30 years, (of pretty much), daily playing.

[shotgun]

A Mark VI Soprano listed $395 in '65.

[HOUSTON NONET]

Good powers of observation Yellowhorn. I looked again at the book last pm and yes the 1951 photo is not a BA Selmer- probably a King with the pearl palm keys and underslung octave mechanism.
PS I bought a low A Selmer Bari in 1967 new for 1600.00

[HOUSTON NONET]

But his best tone (Lush Life, Blue Trane GS etc-- 57-59 perioid) was on a BA with Tonemaster mpc

[Reedsplinter]

I love that period too -- like 1957-1959 (Lush Life is one of my all-time favorite albums). But I'd be hard pressed to define a "best" tone for Trane. To me he sounds wonderful on Lush Life. Also on A Love Supreme etc. etc.

Do you still have that bari, Houston?

[Reedsplinter]

A Mark VI Soprano listed $395 in '65.

Hmm. Were the sops less? I guess even in 1965 there wasn't a very big demand for them.

When did Selmer start manufacturing sops? I know the history of their altos and tenors well, but haven't researched the arc of their involvement with sopranos.

[HOUSTON NONET]

Sold it for my first year tuition and books for medical school

[Reedsplinter]

Maybe I answered my own question:

Selmer's next saxophone took a quantum leap in design. So much so, that it left the rest of the saxophone world scrambling to compete with it. The Selmer Balanced Action would become the basic prototype for what is now considered the "standard" saxophone design. Radical changes included: bell keys placed on the right side of the horn with the rods running down the front of the horn instead of the side, radically redesigned octave key mechanism, a standard alternate front F key, and modern palm key design. The new Selmer also sported a mother of pearl G# key and a flat side key design. To top off this stunning work, Selmer had the USA assembled horns engraved by Conn's top instrument engravers. The result is a strikingly beautiful and facilitative horn. Owners of these horns seldom part with them!

As Selmer rode the tide of their new model, their development team was busy trying to improve the design of the new horn. Some of these early balanced actions had and inch-tall octave vent on the neck that looked like a tea kettle. Others had 3 octave keys operated by one mechanism! Selmer even produced a few Soprano and Baritone prototypes, but for the most part, production was limited to the Alto and Tenor.

http://www.saxophone.org/vintage.html

That's from Jason DuMars' "A Short and Incomplete History of Selmer Saxophones"

If they cost $395 in 1965(!?) they must have been giving them away in the 1940s. . . .

[Yellowhorn]

Merko -

It sounds like you have the UCS, or unconsciously incompetent syndrome. In other words, you are so sure of what you know to the point that you don't realize you know either very little or nothing.

A giant like Coltrane plays lots of horns of many brands. And while it is agreed that he played Selmer tenors and sop (the one that Miles bought for him), it is also a known fact, as Swingtone pointed out, that Trane played the King Super 20 for a little while before he switched to Selmer. In fact, he played the King between 1949-1951, when he was gigging with Dizz!

Houston -

If you look at the book on p. 14, that is the picture of Coltrane and a King Super 20, and if you look at the one on p. 151, you can see the SML. I don't know exactly what model (Rev. C, D, or Gold Medal, or King Marigaux), but I think it is an SML because of the split low B and Bb keyguards and the SML logo on the neck (the same spot where the MK6's pope hat is).

[hakukani]

I don't know about you but . . . . hey, what WERE you doing that summer?

I went to summer camp and learned to canoe and sail. I watched Star Trek and watched the hippies on TV. What do you expect, I was only 11, and had only been playing a Boosey and Hawkes sax for a year. My Mk VI was still five years away, and I got it for $500 plus the B&H.

[HOUSTON NONET]

Saw the one on page 14 --now will go get it out again look for the other-- good eyes my man

[Sebastian]

Merko -



Houston -

If you look at the book on p. 14, that is the picture of Coltrane and a King Super 20, and if you look at the one on p. 151, you can see the SML. I don't know exactly what model (Rev. C, D, or Gold Medal, or King Marigaux), but I think it is an SML because of the split low B and Bb keyguards and the SML logo on the neck (the same spot where the MK6's pope hat is).

Hey there,

This is definitely a Selmer and not an SML: take a good look at the neck, it's the standard Selmer logo from the 30's and 40's and partway into the 50's (before the "pope hat"). The engraving is characteristically Selmer, the LH pinky table is the Selmer BA design and the signature "O" and not the straight across bar of the SML.

[Dr G]

FWIW, the Balanced Action had split key guards too.

[kavala]

Yeah, but it's not like a Selmer cost $5,000 in those days. Does anybody know how much they were going for in relation to Conn's and other brands?

Here in NZ you paid at least 30% more for a Buescher 400 compared to
a MK VI (new prices) in the mid sixties.

[Yellowhorn]

OK, my bad, Dr. G and Sebastian!

[HOUSTON NONET]

1 out of 2 ain't bad

[Elmore]

As a mere school child in 1966 my parents surprized me with a tenor saxophone for Christmas. A Pichard Artist Model. It had nickel plated keys, rolled tone holes, a huge bell and sound to go with that huge bell. It was an SML Gold Medal two-tone model. A stencil. I still have it. What a big sound!
It cost my folks $354.00 back then. It was ordered out of the Montgomery Ward catalog.
It has gone through some changes. Tone holes leveled in mid-eighties (what did I do???/intonation was improved though) and re-lacquer in the early 90s (no more nickel plate). The lacquer was done very well by Southeastern in Huntsville, AL though he did remove the G# articulation lever. I may look for it and someday have that restored. If I knew then what I know now I may have done it differently. It is a beautiful horn with a beautiful sound.

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3781&stc=1&d=1196495568

[tranesonic]

Tenor-wise, Trane played a Super (Balanced) Action, definitely not a Balanced Action and definitely not an SML, the pic you cite is clearly a Selmer as already stated by Sebastian, and it's clearly an SBA, not a BA. Moreover, I believe the photos of Trane with the King were promo pictures, there is at least another one from the same photo session where Dizzy is cupping his ear to listen to him, and the horn was probably borrowed or was actually the subject of the promo pictures, he isn't even wearing a strap. There's a pic of Trane on stage with Dizzy's band (with Bird) and again it's a SBA. He changed to the Mark VI sometime around late '64 - early '65.

[ZenBen]

Any archives of used instrument catalogs from the period? Transcripts from eBay in 1939?


:sign5:

[ZenBen]

FWIW, the Balanced Action had split key guards too.

And so did (do) some of the SBAs.

[Swingtone]

Moreover, I believe the photos of Trane with the King were promo pictures, there is at least another one from the same photo session where Dizzy is cupping his ear to listen to him, and the horn was probably borrowed or was actually the subject of the promo pictures, he isn't even wearing a strap.

The key word above is "probably." The fact that he wasn't wearing a strap for the photos doesn't prove diddly. He had the horn in his possession, didn't he? Plus the King Super 20 was THE hot new jazz horn of the early 50's until the Mark VI came out. Since I've seen the photos of him playing one myself--and since there is no clear documentation to the contrary--I'm almost positive he played a Super 20 for a while, at least in 1951 when the shots were taken. What's so hard to believe about it? They are GREAT horns.