After Chem-Dip on a VI

[Fred]

This thread fell victim to the crash, but I'd still like some Selmer fans' input on this. I'm going to putting a significant amount of money into restoring a 106XXX VI alto that apparently stayed in a very damp environment for a long time. It must be chem-dipped - no real choice there. My options are:

1. Strip it all the way and relacquer. (Ain't gonna happen.) :wink:
2. Strip it all the way and replate. (Very Doubtful it's gonna happen.)
3. Strip the corrosion and peeling lacquer off and leave the rest alone (some lacquer and some stripped).
4. Strip the corrosion and pealing lacquer off; wait for the desirable patina on the bare brass; and apply a light coat of air-dry lacquer to preserve the patina (no buffing at all.)
5. Strip the whole thing down to bare brass and leave it like that.

I don't believe that most of these options (excluding relacquer and plating) will have a significant effect on how the alto sounds, but I would like to make the best decision possible regarding preserving its value. I'm posting it here instead of under Finishes because I primarily want Selmer players' opinions as they view an older VI a bit differently than others do.

Thanks for your input. :)

[mostly alto guy]

I wonder, about whose impression of the horn's value are you most concerned.? Value to the guy or gal who plays the horn is very different from value to a potential buyer.

If the horn were a great player as is, it had just the sound I wanted, and it were mine, I've have it chemically stripped, carefully hand buffed, deep gold lacquered, and rebuilt with the same pads/resos/key heights, springs, etc. it had when it was playing so well. That way it would keep right on playing just that well for a very long time, but it would also look fabulous. I know that by doing this I would lessen its market value, no matter how good it sounds and plays. If anyone asked I'd tell them what I had done, and why, and that it plays and sounds just as it did before the re-finish was done (which it would). And I'd tell them it's not for sale (which it wouldn't be).

If, on the other hand, I didn't plan on keeping it and was therefore more concerned about someone else's idea of its value, I'd leave it as is and let the next owner make his own desicion about what to do about the gnarly finish.

[Fred]

The alto is totally unplayable now and I've never heard it play before. I literally rescued it from being a wall-hanger, but there is nothing wrong that can't be fixed by a great overhaul. Springs and pads are shot - way shot - but the body is in great structural condition. So the task is dealing with corrosion and peeling lacquer, pads, and springs. I may or may not end up keeping the VI as I have another alto I really like. This project might pay for my soprano, though.

[mostly alto guy]

Any serious finish work will require a repad, so it makes little sense to do the essential full repad until after the desired finish work. That complicates the picture, since you don't know if this is a good or less good example of a MKVI in terms of playability, scale, and sound. (We all read that the range was rather inconsistent, but we never see any of the less good ones for sale--odd, ain't it?)

Consider: Have a very basic pad job done, just enough to get the horn playing. Leave any pads that are sealing alone, and don't be picky about regulation--just get it playable and leak free for as cheap as you can. Worry about fine tuning of scale and action later. Assess its sound. Good? Take the horn apart and work on (by hand) the worst areas of peeling and corrosion. Reassemble it and play it again. No change? Are you really gassed about the horn's sound? If so, go for the job I described above and keep the horn. Don't worry about anyone else's assessment of its "value."

If you're not that excited about how the horn sounds at this point it, stop and sell.

[jpciii]

If it were my horn, I wouldn't fool with the finish. I would clean the heck out of it, using scrub brushes, swabs, bottle brushes warm water and detergent...etc. Then do the chem dip. Then wash it again. Rinse thoroughly. To protect it, I would try to wax the bare metal parts. People on the old forum told of good results using a regular car wax. Furniture wax was also suggested, if you don't mind the lemon fresh scent.

The horn is an investment too. It would be much easier to sell if the finish is original. It will also cost you less money not to fool with it. If its a keeper for life, then maybe do something to preserve it better.

[atestarr]

I heard from the sax player for Julia Iglesias that chem dipping ate away at the metal of the horn, softening it and making it less resonant. He wound up buying a new alto and tenor as a result. I just don't trust chemical processing.

[Bill08690]

I agree with Mostly Alto Guy. Just get it the horn in play condition and clean the worst parts the best you can. Check out the performance of the horn to see how it plays. Let the next owner decide how the horn should look.

Recently I obtained an old Buescher tenor that I put a new set of pads and a few corks into. The horns plays great and I'm gonna leave it at that for the time being.

[Fred]

Unfortunately, this is going to be an all-or-nothing job. Every pad (they're rotting off and falling out) and every spring (broken or so rusted they're about to break) will probably have to be replaced. The sax apparently sat up for years in a damp environment. On the positive side, it didn't take any mechanical abuse during that time or any bumps - the body is as straight as new and no bumps at all.

But because of the bad shape of the pads and springs, somuch work would have to be done just to play it that to turn around after that and trash the work to do a more extensive rebuild just doesn't make sense. I would certainly agree with your suggestion to just get it playing if it were possible - it's good advice. But I don't think I can base hit this one - I gotta play home run derby whether I want to or not. :?

[Joe]

Fred, I do have one suggestion for sure. Try the neck of the salvaged horn on another VI. If you like the way it plays, leave it out of the chem dip process. If it sounds too rough or harsh, go ahead and dip it also. The chem dip will affect the way the neck plays on an older horn, making the sound mellower by removing the corrosion on the inside of the neck.

As far as the body, there are still players that intentionally have all the lacquer stripped (please, no machine buffing). These people are a very small minority, though. I think you're pretty much going to suffer the same devaluation for finish either way. The only difference is, there are a lot of players that won't consider a stripped VI. These same players will consider a VI with 40% lacquer at a slightly reduced price as long as it's a player.

[hornfixer]

Atestarr.. I am wondering what kind of chemicals are used to dip a horn that would mes it up like that.

[Jeff D]

There is a new chem dip on the market called "Classic Brass Cleaner" made by Tesch Chemical of Appleton, WI and distributed by Ed Meyers (ask your repair shop about it). This chemical is designed to attack only organics. Other chemicals actually attack all exposed surfaces--dirty or not. The Classic Brass will eat up grunge and scale but not etch the metal at all. It is also very very easy on the lacquer. One of the initial test horns was a 70 yr old King Liberty trumpet. It was dunked in the tank for 2 hours and no lacquer peel.

**note** If lacquer does come off it was probably already loose due to dent removal or some other traumatic process.

JD

[sarge]

Fred,
I do restorations all the time. Sometimes if it's butt-ugly I'll go all the way and do a silver plate / re-engraving / Total Restoration, but other times I take a less expensive approach... If this one was my shop stock, I would do the minimum to the finish that will allow it to be clean and free of harmful corrosion.
One of my favorite methods is to use an orange based paint remover. I choose it because it's not very strong and if applied for an hour or so, (then wash it), it will just do the minimum. You don't even need to wear gloves, this stuff is so non-harmful. Then I use a more aggressive chemical on a q-tip to remove any spots of (green) brass corrosion and neutralize it. Finally clean/polish with Pledge. At that point whatever is left is going to stay put and it will look like it looks. in time it will tarnish to a brown patina, in the bare areas, which is cool in it's own way. the "joe henderson sax" Calico look.
Then I would install all new springs and do a traditional french style complete rebuild. total investment about 450.00-500.00... assuming it doesn't need swedging or have hidden damage.
This is just my opinion and one possible approach, but my experience is that many sax lovers would prefer this approach to anything more intrusive.
sarge