Alto Sax Meyer G' Series ~or~ Meyer Richie Cole Alto Sax? [Archive]

Saxomophoner

03-08-2003, 06:03 AM

Hey,

I ordered two mouthpieces but I want some opinion on which on is the best.

1. Meyer Richie Cole Alto Sax Mouthpiece.

Description: Based Riche Cole's old New York Meyer #5, this new mouthpiece offers the performer a lush tone with a creamy center and great projection. Those in search of Cole's vintage sound should give this mouthpiece a try.
http://www.wwbw.com/Item/?itemno=29308

2. Meyer "G" Alto Sax Mouthpiece.

Description: The goal of the new "G" series is to reproduce the size and style of chamber and tip opening that allows the unique sound of great saxophonists of the past. 'G' is available in three different tip openings: 5,6, or 7.
http://www.wwbw.com/Item/?itemno=93647

Which ones do u recommend? Which one will give me a brilliant clear edge tone or a mellow sound? THANX FOR UR OPINION!! :D

Andrew

03-08-2003, 07:28 AM

The Cole model will give you a brighter/edgier tone...listen to some Cole, and that's essentially it. The Meyer 'G' model is supposed to emulate a Gregory of the past...much like Paul Desmond, although, some others have played on that type of a mouthpiece and got more brightness.

Saxomophoner

03-08-2003, 02:09 PM

I use a Selmer C* mouthpiece currently but I am switching and trying the Meyer mouthpieces. I use a new Selmer 62 Series 3 Saxophone. I'm trying to get a cutting edge, clear, responsive, bright, mellow, and NO fuzzy sound.

So in other words, which mouthpiece would be the best for me?

Dave Dolson

03-08-2003, 06:18 PM

Soxomophoner: You've posed questions that cannot be truthfully answered. Everyone will weigh in with what works best for them . . . but no one can tell you what works best for you. You may very well buy every mouthpiece mentioned here and none will work for you. No harm in trying (because that's what you must do), but only you can answer the questions you asked.

To think you will achieve Star-Player-A's sound because you bought the same kind of mouthpiece is pure folly.

Good luck in your quest for mouthpiece perfection. It only took me about 40 years to find the best pieces for me. DAVE

Teddy

03-09-2003, 12:27 AM

I bought the Richie Cole Meyer and I think it's the best one out there for the relatively low price.It does have enough edge for modern stuff but it also can sound vintage.......not bad for a new peice at all

kennyj

04-09-2003, 05:27 PM

Mouthpiece Mania Manipulates Monetary Measures!

My current stable of alto mouthpieces includes Bari-brand Richie Cole 6 & 7, Bari Mike Smith 5**, Ponzol Custom, and many Meyer 5, 6, and 7's.

I tried the new Meyer NY Limited, and was relatively unimpressed. I kept jockeying around, ending up with the Bari Cole & Smith pieces leading the way.

About a month ago, I ran into my friend Richie Cole at a pickup-gig in the area. We talked at length on many subjects, but since we are saxists, the conversation ended up on set-ups.

He told me that the Bari-brand is totally unauthorized, and a relatively poor rendition of the older style Meyers. He then showed me his own Meyer Richie Cole, and his ancient NY Meyer 5 given him by Phil Woods eons ago. They are identical!

I ordered a Meyer Richie Cole (available only in a 5 lay), and a new Meyer G (also in a 5 lay, for proper comparison). The G is a wonderful mouthpiece, giving me results I have not seen since the unfortunate demise of my own ancient Meyer 5. The Meyer Cole is also wonderful, with the same results of the G, only to me, slightly brighter. I am now using the G for my primary mouthpiece. The G and Cole both have great response, great "pop", middle D is in tune and projects well, and the palm keys are in tune! I heartily recommend either of these pieces to anyone searching for that Woods/Cole/Stitt/Quil ideal of alto sound!

ii-V-I
kenny j

Joe Jazz

04-09-2003, 09:40 PM

I just recently tested a Meyer "G" and "Richie Cole" against my Meyer 5M medium chamber. Couldn't hear enough of a difference to make a change. Think it all may be a marketing ploy. I wouldn't describe any of them as bright or edgy. I was hoping the Richie Cole would have the promised "rich & creamy" sound, but I didn't hear it. None of them really sounded noticeably better than my Selmer S-80. Am now going to try a Meyer Jazz metal, Brilhart Level-Aire metal, and Bari Nickel Silver. Should be able to find a little edge there. May just end up going with my Jody Jazz.

Mike Ruhl

04-09-2003, 11:04 PM

Should be able to find a little edge there. May just end up going with my Jody Jazz.
You might consider the Runyon Custom Jazz. It's basically the same as the Custom/Jody Jazz, with a higher baffle.

Joe Jazz

04-10-2003, 01:11 AM

Meruhl-

Thanks for the tip, I'll consider it.....

Hornlip

04-10-2003, 03:17 AM

So is the "5" lay on the Cole alto piece the same as the lay on a vintage No. 5 Meyer?

I understand that on the older Meyer No. 5 pieces had a .76 tip opening, whereas today's Meyer No. 5 meausre .71 -- anybody know?

kennyj

04-10-2003, 03:54 AM

According to older sources, you are correct in assuming that vintage NY Meyers are different than newer JJ Babbitt Meyers. However, according to my source, who is Richie Cole himself, showing me the mouthpieces, and he told me eye-to-eye that these are exact. The biggest differences between the vintage and the new Meyers becomes most apparent on the inside baffle and the throat. The Meyer Cole and the Meyer G have gone back to the long roll-over baffle of the vintage years. A great help in understanding some of this is a 5 page article available on the web from Dorn publications by Ralph Morgan, comparing the vintage to the new. Another great help is calling JJ Babbitt themselves, and talking to Mr. Green, who has designed and manufactured the Cole and the G. I have found talking to Mr. Green and Mr. Morgan quite enlightening.

ii-V-I
kenny j

Hornlip

04-10-2003, 03:57 PM

Kenny--

Thanks -- info from the horse's mouth, even!!

I assume that where you quoted Cole as saying the "Cole" mouthpieces were "exact", you meant that he meant they were exactly comparable to the old Meyers, including tip opening, correct?

Just trying to clear it up!! :D

kennyj

04-10-2003, 04:26 PM

Richie told me that the folks at JJ Babbitt took his ancient Meyer that he (Richie Cole) received from Phil Woods eons ago, they measured everything and made a clone. He has several off-the-shelf Meyer Cole mouthpieces, and he tells me that thay are indeed the same.
kenny j

T.J

06-28-2003, 07:54 PM

I'm not sure if I'm totally right but I happen to own a RC Meyer that is at least a decade old. Everyone loved it and they all bought one but only to be heavily dissappointed.

I took a close look at the new RC Meyer and my 'old' RC Meyer and noticed few things :

Round side walls - The old RC Meyer had much more round, sccoped-up side walls than the new one. Infact, it was almost like the ol' Meyer Brothers.

Also had narrower window and shorter baffle. Not by much, but it was noticeable. Round chamber like the old Meyers. But most of all, the old RC meyer showed MUCH better craftmanship, and I think this where it all falls down to. The new Meyers aren't just like the old ones due their craftsmanship, and I think many would agree with that.

stevenweiss

01-28-2008, 03:25 PM

I find this post interesting. I lived for many years in Philadelphia, and so I heard Richie Cole a lot (he's from Trenton, right up the road) in clubs. Cole is a fun saxophonist (certainly not a brilliant improviser), with great technique and a wonderful sense of humor. Lots of good memories.

But I never, ever cared for his tone. When you listen to him next to other great altoists (Parker, Adderly, Woods, Gary Bartz, Vincent Herring, to name a few), his tone is rather drab and flat, almost ugly. I find it interesting that they put his name on a mouthpiece and then people talk about trying to get his tone. It makes me chuckle.

altoist

01-29-2008, 06:18 PM

But I never, ever cared for his tone. When you listen to him next to other great altoists (Parker, Adderly, Woods, Gary Bartz, Vincent Herring, to name a few), his tone is rather drab and flat, almost ugly. I find it interesting that they put his name on a mouthpiece and then people talk about trying to get his tone. It makes me chuckle.

That just goes to show that there's no arguing over taste (de gustibus non est
disputandem, even the Romans knew that!). I have listened to him, and all of the
players you mention by name, and I much prefer his tone to Woods, Bartz, and
Herring's, and I don't find it drab, flat, or almost ugly.

02-01-2008, 09:51 PM

Well, I agree that when I saw Richie many times when he was in his Alto Madness group in the 80's, I loved his humor and drive but felt he compromised on the tone.

Gary Bartz is a very different player with a Trane type of intensity, but his tone doesn't do much for me either.

stevenweiss

02-02-2008, 05:25 AM

MM makes my point well. Richie's comic sense added a circus quality to his playing. Lots of scoops on ballads that had a very white, pre-bop sound. Amazing technique on the fast stuff, but barely beyond the bebop idiom.

The playing, to me, lacked character, tone-wise. Just a drabness I'd say.

SuperDave

02-02-2008, 04:04 PM

[QUOTE=stevenweiss Lots of scoops on ballads that had a very white, pre-bop sound. Amazing technique on the fast stuff, but barely beyond the bebop idiom.

The playing, to me, lacked character, tone-wise. Just a drabness I'd say.[/QUOTE]
Wow that's a little harsh!! I think he chooses to have a tone like that...
although I'm not sure of the very white part, might be humouous to attempt to define that, see if this thread can hit 100 posts and get locked.
What do you think of Bobby Watson? He uses some comic elements and scoops...

stevenweiss

02-05-2008, 07:44 PM

parxang

02-05-2008, 09:03 PM

Sorry--no offenses meant. I really enjoyed Richie and caught him every opportunity I had to (including with Eddie Jefferson and Eric Kloss). His performances were great to hear and watch.

To get back on the subject, of the Meyer G's mentioned (5,6,7) which would most likely produce the airy, sweet sound of Paul Desmond?

I have been using Meyer G 5 for 2 years. At first you seem to hear Paul Desmond from that mouthpiece. At least, to me, it did. I guess that's the easiest way to get his sound. But, here is the catch. As I hear Paul Desmond more and more, his tonal concept is NOT only the sweet sound, but also the dark sound in the core. If you can hear his sound without any manipulations of recording technology (in his old live CDs), you can definetly hear the dry dark sound. I think Meyer G 5 lacks that kind of aspect. Simply Meyer G 5 mimics only the sweetness of PD's tone (brightness). That's why I had to go back to Gregory MPCs. To get the sweet tones from Gregory is very hard, but as you keep your tonal concept as your bible, and keep trying, you will get the sweetness. But also the dark sound stays in your tone. But I have to tell you. Nobody but Paul Desmond will get the Paul-Desmond-Tone.

stevenweiss

02-05-2008, 11:15 PM

Any sense of which of those is the freest blowing? (5, 6, 7)

And have you trided a JodyJazz Classic?

SuperDave

02-06-2008, 02:52 AM

I have been using Meyer G 5 for 2 years. At first you seem to hear Paul Desmond from that mouthpiece. At least, to me, it did. I guess that's the easiest way to get his sound. But, here is the catch. As I hear Paul Desmond more and more, his tonal concept is NOT only the sweet sound, but also the dark sound in the core. If you can hear his sound without any manipulations of recording technology (in his old live CDs), you can definetly hear the dry dark sound. I think Meyer G 5 lacks that kind of aspect. Simply Meyer G 5 mimics only the sweetness of PD's tone (brightness). That's why I had to go back to Gregory MPCs. To get the sweet tones from Gregory is very hard, but as you keep your tonal concept as your bible, and keep trying, you will get the sweetness. But also the dark sound stays in your tone. But I have to tell you. Nobody but Paul Desmond will get the Paul-Desmond-Tone.

I really think you are over analyzing and perhaps romanticising it ...
I think most people would be hard pressed to identify a Paul Desmond long tone, it's his phrasing and attack and decay that characterize his sound not all that sweetness and darkness etc.

SaxyJ

02-06-2008, 05:52 AM

I have tried the Meyer G 7 a few months back. In terms of response and playability, it almost felt close to a NY Meyer. However, in terms of sound, I found that it stayed dark no matter what volume I played at. Due to this, I did not keep it.

J.Max

02-06-2008, 03:04 PM

I would think to get a Desmond like sound, you'd need a smaller tip opening and a hard reed. His sound is actually quite similar to a classical type sound, but with no vibrato and a little more edge.

As far as the Richie Cole piece goes, even if you don't like his sound, the NY Meyers are flexible enough to produce a lot of different sounds. If (and this is a big if) they are close to the NY Meyers as someone said, they might be worth a shot even if you don't like his sound.

parxang

02-06-2008, 08:01 PM

I really think you are over analyzing and perhaps romanticising it ...
I think most people would be hard pressed to identify a Paul Desmond long tone, it's his phrasing and attack and decay that characterize his sound not all that sweetness and darkness etc.
I was analyzing his tones only, not his music and everything. But I agree with you about his phrasing and technique make hime so unique. If you play other songs of other player with Paul's tone. It doesn't quiet fit.

stevenweiss

02-15-2008, 02:19 AM

So I got a Meyer G 5, and I'm surprised by it. They say it produces a sound like Paul Desmond, which I have achieved passably well with other mouthpieces, mostly classical mouthpieces with 2, 3, oe 4 openings.

But the Meyer gives me more of a Cannonball or Phil Woods sound. Fat, warm, round, thick vibrato, great control of altissimo. And I'm using hard reeds.

Also the mouthpiece produces a "bloom" sound I haven't achieved on other pieces.

Anyway, I'm keeping it, not because it makes me play like Paul Desmond, but because it makes me play in tune, is consistent top to bottom, and has a warmly dark tone that I like.

king koeller

02-15-2008, 02:45 AM

SaxyJ

02-15-2008, 07:20 AM

Ralph Morgan told me before he died that the old New York Meyer Brothers 5MM had a tip opening of .080".
Like todays Babbitt Meyer 7MM.
So why is the Richie Cole piece a (.071")?
It should be offered in a .080" tip and other optional tip openings.
If I got the Meyer "G", I would get the 7.

I am with you king koeller. I had always thought that an old Meyer 5 measured around .080". (Morgan's famous Meyer article even shows this!) However, I wonder if others are referring to this chart:

http://www.theowanne.com/mouthpieces101/tipOpeningCharts/Final%20Tip%20Opening%20Charts/Alto%20Tip%20Opening%20Chart2007.pdf

king koeller

02-15-2008, 09:59 PM

Yes,
I don't know where theo got those measurements.
Ralphs chart shows the 1939 tip openings.
It seems that Theo is confusing the Babbitt Meyers with the Meyer Brothers NY Models.
I wish Ralph was still alive.....

SaxyJ

02-23-2008, 02:35 AM

Out of curiosity, how would the bore size of the Richie Cole model compare with the normal Meyers? The normal Meyers fit like a charm on the neck of my sax, however, the Meyer G was much too loose.

thejazzyfly

07-09-2009, 09:17 AM