Erik Greiffenhagen V5 Double Chamber MPC

[Bob M]

I bought one of these mouthpieces from Junkdude (.110" tip) two weeks ago and am very pleased with the results so I wanted to offer this review. The description from Junkdude’s website is as follows:


“Possibly the best baritone/bass mouthpiece we have found. The double chamber makes this a deep and warm mpc and the baffle gives it power. These are fantastic on vintage baritone saxophones and bass saxes. Nearly identical to and older Double Chamber mpc which is no longer available.
We recently expressed an interest in finding a wide body rubber mouthpiece which is like an older Double Chamber mpc which is no longer available. Erik did some digging in our inventory and found that the Vandoren V5 mpcs are very similar to the blanks he used to make the older baritone mpcs from. Since Vandoren uses an excellent rubber, he thought this would be very similar. Erik completely modifies the interior of the mpc and puts on a new facing curve. As it turns out, these are nearly identical to the older mpcs, and this is easily the best baritone mouthpiece we have found. Deep, rich and warm sound with plenty

My baritone is a 1953 "The Martin". These horns are well known for having a big, robust sound and good ergonomics, but with somewhat quirky intonation (not unlike many vintage horns). Specifically, the horn can go sharp, particularly when it is pushed hard. Furthermore, F2 and E2 can play 10 cents or so sharper than the rest of the horn. A search of SOTW Forum will turn up plenty of discussion about this issue, along with that of various solutions that players have tried, including various mouthpieces, extending the neck and tone hole crescents.

I mainly play in jump blues/RnR bands and in the section of big band that is devoted to the “sounds of swing”. Hence, I need to be able to play from ppp to fff with a full sound and remain in tune. My sound models include guys like Doug James, Leo Parker, Heywood Henry, Hog Cooper, and Charlie Fowlkes; in other words a deep, rich sound with plenty of guts, but warm and not too edgy. Having tried various Links, a Lamberson 7M, a RPC 110R and a Meyer 9, all terrific mouthpieces with well deserved followings, I was still not satisfied that I had the best set-up to meet my objectives. After playing the subject piece (with a LaVoz medium reed and Optimum lig) extensively during the past two weeks, however, I can say with confidence that the Greiffenhagen V5 B75 is exactly what I've been looking for. The combination of the large volume of the chamber and the baffle configuration helps me get the full depth of sound that my horn is capable of, with good intonation and enough punch to get the job done.

[Pinnman]

I have a Riffault customised by Erik - essentially the same as the Morgan double chamber - which is a work of art. He was quite excited about the V5s when I was last in contact.

[Bob M]

Pinnman-

Rumor has it that the Riffault is the actual blank used by Ralph Morgan to make the Morgan Double Chamber bari piece, so I'm not surprised at your comment.

In doing my homework before I bought the Greiffenhagen V5, I came across your posts looking for information on the Morgan Double Chamber. Your comments were part of the reason that I placed the order to begin with.

[Pinnman]

Yes, I wqs tipped off about the Riffault relationship, and bought mine for $5.50(!) on eBay before sending it to Erik.

I didn't realise anyone took so much notice of my posts. I will have to be careful what I say, but I am sure Erik will be pleased.

[Kini]

I discussed this mouthpiece with Dave and JunkDude for my Yani B901-he thought that it wouldnt work as well with a modern horn. I have no technical knowledge to evaluate this statement-can anyone provide insight on that?

Thanks~

[Bob M]

I'd suggest you e-mail Erik directly and ask him about how the piece would work with a modern horn. His e-mail address can be found at themouthpieceguys.com website.

FWIW, Erik plays a vintage Conn 12M.

[bfoster64]

I've read all the posts about these pieces and, needing a large-chambered bari mpc to go with my Dolnet, I ended up getting a Jary Custom with a large chamber, scooped sidewalls, and a med/low rollover baffle.

Can anyone post some photos of the Morgan double chamber or Greiffenhagen mpcs that show the shape of the chamber and baffle?

[Pinnman]

I haven't seen any. E-mail Erik and see how it goes. I have a Conn 12M which is what Erik plays, too, so the match is good for me. I can't say for more modern saxes, except that mine is essentially a Morgan (based on Riffault) and the new ones are Vandoren based and therefore a different animal - but same quality workmanship.

[Bob M]

You can find pictures of the Greiffenhagen V5 at Junkdude's site here https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=560

The baffle is shaped very much like that in a Berg, just not as pronounced.

[bfoster64]

Oh, very nice. I didn't realize Junkdude had pics up. I can see the shape of the baffle but what is this "double chamber" thing? Do these pieces really have a huge low end and are they really comparable to the ones Morgan used to make? I wouldn't expect Morgan to ever make a bullet baffle like that.

[Bob M]

I have never seen a Morgan Double Chamber (even a picture), so I can't comment as to how physically comparable the Vandoren based mouthpiece is to a Morgan, beyond what is said on Junkdude's site, nor do I know why its called a "Double Chamber". Erik should be able to answer any questions like this that you have, however. Since Pinnman owns a Greiffenhagen bari piece made from a Riffault, which reputedly were the blanks Morgan used to make the double chamber piece, he might be able to add some color too.

Regarding the playability of the piece and its suitability for my horn, I can say that does everything promised on Junkdude's site. My horn has a great low end anyway, but this mouthpiece is the most responsive piece that I have played on a baritone sax. With this set-up, the bottom end of the horn is big, whether I'm playing ppp or fff, which is critical to me as a big band bari player.

Interesting side note...Morgan Double Chamber pieces must be exceedingly rare. Nobody on SOTW Forum seems to own or even actually played one, nor did a Google search turn up any comments on or pictures of this mouthpiece. In a thread a few years ago, Bootman, who was playing a Martin Magna bari at the time, commented that instinctively he felt it would be a good match.

[bfoster64]

Bob M, thanks for posting this thread and providing all the follow up.

[Pinnman]

As I have been called upon again, here is one of the e-mails from Erik when we were discussing specifications:

"i think i'm clear on what you want done. any other particulars regarding the work you could email at your convenience. fortunately, i also play on a 12m baritone # 265xxx so ensuring that the chamber is large enough for good intonation won't be a problem. my basic m.o. is to create a secondary tone chamber between the bocal and the primary tone chamber portion located more near the baffle area. riffault blanks are not so numerous in their variety that producing a consistent result should be a problem"

I have a feeling that Erik designed this originally for Ralph Morgan rather than the other way round, though I can't swear to it. Erik was apprenticed to Ralph some 20 odd years ago and has worked for him ever since, mostly, I think, on a free lance basis. Check his web site (themouthpieceguys) for a better explanation of te relationship.

[rhysonsax]

I was interested in this piece, so emailed Erik about whether it would work on my Selmer SA80 Serie II. Here's his reply:


as far as my vandoren piece is concerned it's a medium shelf style hard rubber mpc to which i add "balloon" section in between the primary tone chamber and the bocal section which results in a deeper more resonant sound which improves intonation on older horns and would mean only that you'd have to push the mpc on a little farther than you're used to with a regular baritone. the main thing is i feel it adds quite a bit of body to the sound and most of my customers so far agree.

I may have to get one.

Rhys

[MojoBari]

In most cases, a double chamber is another name for a squeeze throat or squeeze chamber design. Looking from the shank you can see a step where the chamber bore is smaller than the shank bore. It is just past the window "U". Theo has some pics on his site I think.

[bfoster64]

Morgan's L chambers also have this "squeeze" or "double chamber" design, correct?


By the way, if anyone is looking for a large-chambered bari mpc for a vintage bari--especially if you want an alternative to spending $300 on a Greiffenhagen piece--you should talk to David Jary. He made me a piece for about $180 and it plays BIG. The intonation is good on my big bore Dolnet and the low end is phenomenal.

[Merlin]

Interesting. I've been doing the same thing to my personal Vandoren bari/bass pieces for years.

[awholley]

In most cases, a double chamber is another name for a squeeze throat or squeeze chamber design. Looking from the shank you can see a step where the chamber bore is smaller than the shank bore. It is just past the window "U". Theo has some pics on his site I think.

The Morgan 1C baritone piece I used to have was similar to this, but it had a circle instead of a U at the step like his (old) 1C soprano pieces.

[MojoBari]

I'm talking circular cross-sections too. I was refering to the window "U" shape. Not a horseshoe chamber cross-section found in vintage Selmers.

[MM]

Is the modified mpc all that different from a stock Vandoren?

[Pinnman]

I have always been just a little sceptical about mouthpiece work, especially when reading about the mouthpiece guru who takes chunks of metal out until he is happy with the result - even though the chamber has a, shall we say, unfinished look. I can't remember who that was, but it did not strike me as being scientific.

Then I bought the Riffault for a song ($5.50 actually) and spent about $110 having it altered. The outcome is absolutely amazing: a really smooth blow with all notes playing with ease. Why can't all mouthpieces be like this?!

So, does the modification work? For me (on a Rifffault not a Vandoren), emphatically yes.

[hakukani]

I have always been just a little sceptical about mouthpiece work, especially when reading about the mouthpiece guru who takes chunks of metal out until he is happy with the result - even though the chamber has a, shall we say, unfinished look. I can't remember who that was, but it did not strike me as being scientific.



When a sculptor does that, we call it 'art'.

[Pinnman]

I never did understand art ... or modern sculpture. I prefer a more classical approach to design.

[Rahspeak]

haha...I thought the title of the post was Erik G. VS. Double Chamber mouthpiece...my answer would've been "I bet Erik wins". The feedback on these "the mouthpiece guys" has been so overwhelmingly positive. I'm gonna try Erik's hand at this piece. By the way, it seems that they really like Vandoren pieces as blanks, for good reason...Vandoren makes a great mouthpiece! It's even better when perfected by a true craftsman.

[Ike Webkins]

I have never seen a Morgan Double Chamber (even a picture), so I can't comment as to how physically comparable the Vandoren based mouthpiece is to a Morgan, beyond what is said on Junkdude's site, nor do I know why its called a "Double Chamber". Erik should be able to answer any questions like this that you have, however. Since Pinnman owns a Greiffenhagen bari piece made from a Riffault, which reputedly were the blanks Morgan used to make the double chamber piece, he might be able to add some color too.

Regarding the playability of the piece and its suitability for my horn, I can say that does everything promised on Junkdude's site. My horn has a great low end anyway, but this mouthpiece is the most responsive piece that I have played on a baritone sax. With this set-up, the bottom end of the horn is big, whether I'm playing ppp or fff, which is critical to me as a big band bari player.

Interesting side note...Morgan Double Chamber pieces must be exceedingly rare. Nobody on SOTW Forum seems to own or even actually played one, nor did a Google search turn up any comments on or pictures of this mouthpiece. In a thread a few years ago, Bootman, who was playing a Martin Magna bari at the time, commented that instinctively he felt it would be a good match.

I should receive my Morgan double chamber within the two newt weeks (after a waiting time of roughly 12 months...:? ).

And I too will have to wait for my low Bb M VI to be overhauled for the test..:(

[rambert]

My baritone is a 1953 "The Martin". These horns are well known for having a big, robust sound and good ergonomics, but with somewhat quirky intonation (not unlike many vintage horns). Specifically, the horn can go sharp, particularly when it is pushed hard. Furthermore, F2 and E2 can play 10 cents or so sharper than the rest of the horn.



Having tried various Links, a Lamberson 7M, a RPC 110R and a Meyer 9, all terrific mouthpieces with well deserved followings, I was still not satisfied that I had the best set-up to meet my objectives. After playing the subject piece (with a LaVoz medium reed and Optimum lig) extensively during the past two weeks, however, I can say with confidence that the Greiffenhagen V5 B75 is exactly what I've been looking for. The combination of the large volume of the chamber and the baffle configuration helps me get the full depth of sound that my horn is capable of, with good intonation and enough punch to get the job done.
Bob,

I'm having the same problem with the F2 and E2 on my Big B being sharper than the rest.

So far I've tried Link STM, Lamberson SB, vintage HR Berg Larsen and a fat body Bundy with various success rates for general intonation, but all of them still played the F2 and E2 sharp.

Does your Greiffenahgen V5 solve this problem?

[Bob M]

rambert

It doesn't literally eliminate the problem, which has to be the result of some sort of accoustic flaw in the design, but the large secondary chamber attenuates it sufficiently that I can easily make the adjustments that I need to while playing to play those notes in tune.

[Ike Webkins]

So I finally got my VI from overhaul back, and had the opportunity to play the Morgan vintage (bass/bari).

Real huge and fat sound (very good mariage with the VI, difficult to say which one has more influence on the other), but lacking some edge. i just added a small self sticking pad on the baffle (those you can find cheap on Ebay :D ), result "perfect" sound for me (Mulligan type), a very nice balance between fatness and edge.

I will have to get back my EZ Bundy to compare too.

[saxtek]

Before his passing, Ralph Morgan was the only refacer that I would trust, although Theo Wanne refaced one mouthpiece for me for a very early alto, and he did a good job.

Erik Greiffenhagen was the originator of the double chamber Bass/baritone mouthpiece. It was a great compliment to him that Ralph offered it as one of his mouthpieces.

I can only speak from my own experiences. I have had work done by Erik mostly on bass sax and clarinet mouthpieces. In every case, the work has been an unqualified success. Perhaps this is not surprising, since Erik is a very good clarinet player and he's also very familiar with the big saxophones. But he is a tenor player too, so don't sell him short.

Remember, Erik Greiffenhagen and Brian Powell of the mouthpiece guys make their primary living facing mouthpieces, every day, day in and day out. Their chops are really up there. It's not a hobby with them. Erik has made GREAT mouthpieces for me for years, and Brian has recently made one screaming Otto Link tenor mouthpiece for me.

This is not a paid endorsement. These guys are friends, as Ralph Morgan was a friend to me and my father before me, but I pay full price. I won't send my stuff to anyone else.

The double chamber bass/baritone mouthpiece is on my short list for mouthpieces to get before it's too late.

My MYSPACE page:
http://www.myspace.com/saxpsychosis

[bfoster64]

What do you mean "before it's too late?"

[saxtek]

I didn't mean that the Morgan factory would disappear. As a matter of fact, Erik and Brian told me they were working with Mrs. Morgan to keep everything going as normal.

It just seems to me that every time I find a mouthpiece or horn that I really love, it disappears or changes in some way. Years ago, I had a friend, a great saxophone player, who remarked "I always seem to buy things in twos." He meant that when he found a mouthpiece or horn he liked, or even a neckstrap, he bought two of them. He had two King Super-20 silver bell tenors, two old brass Dukoff mouthpieces, and no matter what happened, nobody could put him out of business.

I can't always afford to buy two of everything that works for me, but when I can, I still think of that bit of advice. Also, consider an overview of the current situation involving equipment. Other good mouthpieces, especially those made in the USA, are priced at $400, $500, or even over $600. Can we realistically expect the price of world class workmanship to go DOWN? And even if it did, wouldn't the artisans involved concentrate on the products that sell the fastest, such as clarinet, alto, and tenor mouthpieces?

If I see a Morgan double chamber bari/bass mouthpiece available brand new, I'm trying to work it into my budget.

[Ike Webkins]

I.......
If I see a Morgan double chamber bari/bass mouthpiece available brand new, I'm trying to work it into my budget.

Sure, it's a great piece, don't miss it.

[Pinnman]

Erik is making bari mpc's using Vandoren blanks. Otherwise, find a Riffault blank (which the Morgan mpc is based on) and send it to him. I was lucky and bought mine for$ 5.50 on eBay!

[jthole]

rambert

It doesn't literally eliminate the problem, which has to be the result of some sort of accoustic flaw in the design, but the large secondary chamber attenuates it sufficiently that I can easily make the adjustments that I need to while playing to play those notes in tune.

Very late reply, I know!

I had the E2/F2 tuning issue sorted out by a sax tech. Basically, he shortened the register vents, and made a smaller opening (not much difference really), and he made a wax insert for in the bow (pretty big difference). The wax insert probably won't last for years, so I will get one of MartinMod's brass inserts eventually. However, it made the E2 tuning almost perfect. The F2 still needs some lipping down to get in tune, but it is definitely much better than it was. Maybe the MartinMod's insert will even improve it more. Besides, the F1 also is a bit sharp, so maybe adding a crescent in the tone hole will also help.

Anyway, the insert made my Martin so much more playable. The main improvement of the EG mouthpiece for me was opening up the middle and high register of the bari ... it did not really improve the intonation (I guess my Meyer was already pretty good), but the improvement in the sounds quality and consistency makes it absolutely worth the money!