Is my Pan American a Martin stencil?

[bandmommy]

I'm a newbie and talked to some Conn guys first. Big mistake??? I recently purchased a Pan American USA tenor that screams Martin. It's got soldered/beveled tone holes, left hand bell keys with Martin style wire key guards, Martin style left pinkey cluster and octave mechanism, fixed thumb rest, and nickle keys with pearls. It also has a nickle neck that may or may not be original to the horn. The serial #'s match, but could have been added later to go with the horn. There are no patent dates that I can find and absolutly no reference to Conn. The case dates to roughly late 50's to mid 60's. It appears to be original to the sax. I paid $199 for it and am putting another $325 into it for a complete repad and adjustment.
Ok guys, I'm thinking I've got a Martin stencil similar to the Indiana on the same vintage. When it's done, IF the tech does his job correctly, should I have a smokey monster? I'm a woodwind player of 36 years so don't dummy down your thoughts. Thanks a bunch.

[Connical]

How about some photo's ? Sounds interesting !

[bandmommy]

Got an email address, or should I attach them to this thread?

[Ferret]

Got an email address, or should I attach them to this thread?

I'm interested to see too, so host them on Photobucket or Imageshack so we all can see. :]

[bandmommy]

Forget the email,,,,,pics are attached. The sax isn't pretty, I just need one that will play.

[SactoPete]

FWIW, it looks quite a bit different from my 30s era PanAm tenor (which is definitely a Conn-abee).

Pete

[Jonathan C.]

Looks like a bad cross. I don't reconize the pinky table. But I do reconize the tone holes. That screams Martin.

[Connical]

It looks like a Martin . The double posts for the bell key guard reminds me of the Committee II. The pinky cluster is Martinesque as well. Beveled tone holes, well we all know Martin does that.

If it honks like a Martin , and squawks like a Martin, then it's a Martin.

Which is a surprise to me, I like many others thought that PanAM's were produced ONLY by Conn. Live and learn .

Cool stuff, and thanks for the interesting glimpse of your sax !

[steakboy]

gotta believe that's a martin you've got there. the tone holes by themselves make a solid case. looks like some red patina on the back, too. and the pinky cluster's identical to my martin-stencil olds ambassador. that should be a nice-sounding horn when you get it back--congrats!

[bandmommy]

Yeah, where there were some resolders done and the laquer was blown off there's some red. NOT RED ROT. Now that we've come to the conclusion that it's a Martin, what's a good mouthpiece? It came with a King T. Open as a soup can! I'm a clarinetist by trade so I'm VERY familiar with tip openings, facing length,,,,,, and reeds. Good God, don't get me started there.
Anybody got a ball park on it's current value? All total with the cost of the horn and the repad I've got only $524 into it. It comes back from the shop this weekend. I'm more than a little curious as to how it's going to sound.

[SactoPete]

It would be hard to guess at its value. For a baseline, though, the early Pan-Ams go, in good shape, for about what you have into it. A steal at that price, FWIW.

As for mouthpiece, it depends on what you are going for. A good place to start is always a Link STM, it's where lots of us end up anyways :-)

As a clarinetist, you might prefer a more closed opening, but it's hard to say. Mainstream tip opening for an STM tenor would be 7-7*, and using a 3-ish reed.

Pete

[bandmommy]

Most of my playing will be in a Community band. Personal time will be classical. I may try a few show tunes and attempt some Jazz. I'm looking at either an S80 C*/**, or a Lakey. Being "Classically" trained it's hard for me to step outside of the dark and centered zone.

[Jonathan C.]

I would go with the S80 C**. I have used mine for many years with success.

[bandmommy]

Thanks, I'll have to take a few different ones out on approval and see where my ear is happiest. My daughters favor their Russeau 4M and an old Brilhart Ebolin 3 on my alto.

[bruce bailey]

The Selmer tenor mouthpieces are much more closed (per letter) than the altos. I sell the F as my standard for tenor and C* for Alto. The Brilharts are good on tenor too. When I played classical tenor (in the Fennell Wind Ensemble) I used an Otto Link 5* and it blended well. If you go with the Selmer, get an F (opening, not grade). I sell them for $85 new. A vintage Link will run you sever hundred at least and the old Brilharts are still pirced well. A Morgan Protone is a good budget mouthpiece for under $50.

[Jonathan C.]

You might think about a rovner custom. Watch out the tip openenings are real small. I have one on Alto, and it takes all the air you can give it.

[bandmommy]

Close tips are no problem. I use them ALOT on my clarinets. One of my favorites is a vintage O'Brian crystal 2. I've learned the fine art of matching reed, lig, and tip opening to find the 'correct' sound for most playing situations. But since I walk on the Dark side, I prefer to go with harder reeds and close/medium openings. Save the soft reeds and soup cans for the Dixiland players.

[bruce bailey]

I use a closer mpc on clarinet and alto but for tenor you will be lost in the crowd in a band. Short or close facings tend to make the horn very stuffy and muffled.

[bandmommy]

When I get it back, I'll see what's up with the King that came with it. It was kinda hard to tell when the horn leaked like a sieve. Ya never know,,,,, I just may decide to leave well enough alone and not go on another mouthpiece quest. Changing reeds and ligs may be all I need for now.

[spiderjames]

I bet a large chamber HR like a link or similar in a medium open tip 5*/6* would be perfect for this horn and pretty versatile.

[bandmommy]

Anybody know of a CHEAPER mpc (less than $50) that's good for classical work? I've got 3 DAUGHTERS!!! One in college and the other 2 in high school. On top of that we're farmers. Talk about a squeeky budget for my musical endeavors.

[Carl H.]

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=545374&postcount=15

[bandmommy]

Thanks Carl, I saw that. How about something other than Morgan. Or don't you guys try out any of the "budget" pieces?

[bruce bailey]

The Morgan Protone is a budget mouthpiece that you can buy well. I sell them for about $50 shipped. The BARI Esprit is similar for under $20. Both are about .085".

[crashkahuna]

I just saw this thread using search. Was a verdict ever reached - Martin or Conn? I just purchased Pan American alto that seems to be from 40's or 50's that also has soldered/beveled toneholes.

[bruce bailey]

ONLY A GUESS. During the war years, 42-45, Conn was making defense products. Possibly they got bodies or complete horns from Martin or IBIco. and put their name on it to fill dealer orders.

[Wizzbi]

Congratulations!

I own exactly the same model and you'll definitely have a "smokey monster" as soon as it comes back from your tech. Mine has a great lower register and good intonation, but you have to get used to the mechanics (took some time when I got it, I played a Yanagisawa before) and it is a bit hard to get the altissimo register properly.
I use a Springer mouthpiece 0.95, couldn't be happier, but the price is above the budget range you gave us.

Have fun with it, you definitely found a player here!

[crashkahuna]

Thanks for the new comments to this thread. I am excited to finish the overhaul on my alto and see how she plays. -- Crash

[bandmommy]

Here's the determination for you guys. Yes it's a Martin body with the Pan American name stenciled on it. After a bad experience with the Tech and a mouthpiece change, it's a great sounding tenor. This vintage requires a large chamber mpc with a low baffel to sound its best. SMOKIN'

[crashkahuna]

Very cool! After a lot of internet 'research' it does seem that these are made by Martin. Good info about the mouthpieces. I am hoping this sax will have some good punch for my rock band.

[Sax Magic]

For a really budget mouthpiece that can sound really good, try the Rico Royal Graftonite. The tenor A5 and A7 will be the darker than the B5 and B7, which will both play a little darker. The A's will have more closed tips than the B's, and the 5's a bit shorter lay area than the 7's. These are around $16 at most online stores (WWBW, Amazon[!], etc.).

The Bari ESPRIT that Bruce suggested is also a fine budget choice.

Sax Magic

[bandmommy]

Thanks for the info.

The King T2 that came with the sax wouldn't allow me to play in tune. SHARP.
My former teacher gave me a mouthpiece that sounds great on this tenor. I've been told it's an old Yamaha, but the only thing marked on it is TS-S2.
Most of my playing is in a Community Band or for fun, so this freebie mpc more than fit the budget.

[Bas Nijenhuis]

Another question about the Martin 'Pan American'. Is this is mix of different Martin saxes or a prefect stencil of a known Martin type (say comittee...indiana etc.). And why you think Bandmommy, it is from the 50-60ties? I own a similar Tenor, around #64xxx nr. It has bevelled holes, nickelplated (or silver) keys and a lacquered body.

[Sax Magic]

Stencils don't often get much attention in the history department, so now it is hard to nail down when a stencil was made, or in some cases, by whom.

Martin altos from the late 1930's often have solid nickel keys (mine does). This gives them light, fluid action that I love. The tenors of the same era are often mixed bags: some have solid nickel keys, and some have brass keys with nickel plate (mine has the latter).

Your best bet is to compare your stencil carefully to any web site photos of Martins you can find (Saxpics and the Martin Story have great photos). You can probably find the closest Martin model to your stencil, especially in the Martin Story site.

Good luck, and enjoy that fine vintage tenor,

Sax Magic

[bandmommy]

Since this has been resurected I'll post the photos again. You can see for yourselves what my odd ball Pan American/Martin looks like.

These were taken pre-repad. The neck appears to be original and is nickle. Ser# - 64384 on both sax and neck.

[geauxsax]

I'm glad this topic was posted, with the pics. If I came across a Pan American with the beveled tone holes, I would have been baffled. (Now if I can get anyone to shed light on the rolled tone hole Holton. . . )

[bandmommy]

It is a bit of a mind bender. Everyone seemed to think that Pan Americans' were ONLY made by Conn. Mine definetaly says differently.

[Bas Nijenhuis]

Nice photo's, mine looks excactly the same: same keywork, bars and color of lacquer and silver or nickel keys. don't know if they are solid though.
Looking on the the martin site I can't seem to find a horn which matches perfectly, I had features of an Indiana though but still doesn't look the same. And from the stories I read here about these saxes these are quite good. Indiana are supposed to be intermediate horns. Doc Tenney also mentioned owning one of these pan am's in his posts somewhere (and liking it).

[Bas Nijenhuis]

I have some pictures of mine on a Dutch sax site:
http://www.saxforum.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?p=36459#36459

Bas

[bandmommy]

Is the engraving on the bell similar as well?
I see that yours has the brass neck, while mine has nickle.

Now that I've found a couple of mouthpieces that work well, I really like the sound of this tenor. Low B and C# can be a bit tricky for my little hands, but everything else feels good.

[Bas Nijenhuis]

Yes I believe the engraving is similar: here is a picture:



is your neck original to the horn, same serial number on neck and body?
Bas

[bandmommy]

Yup, Our tenors are brothers. It's the same engraving.

As far as I can tell the neck is original. The serial numbers match.