Reed shaving

[Wailin']

It seems most pro players search for a good reed. From what I've read, shaving what are considered "bad reeds" can make them good. Without reed shaving a box of 10 reeds can easily yield only 2-3 readily playable reeds. We all know that reeds cost an awful lot. How do you shave your reeds? I've read about this process but exactly how's it done? Everyone has their personal preferences.

[Frank D]

without going into a lot of detail, you want the side of the reed that fits against the mouthpiece to be flat. Then, if you hold the reed up to the light and look at it, it should be thicker in the center and taper off on the sides, and the taper should be symmetrical from side to side. Take a look at a reed that plays well and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[dstack79]

And I'd further add that you might wanna consult one of the several books on the subject. Exact techniques, tools, philosophies differ from person to person.

[Dog Pants]

It's something you get better and quicker at with practice. It also helps to have a really good reed to use as a model. I thought I was getting halfway decent at adjusting reeds and then yesterday, Boot threw me one of his reeds and the thing was smooth as glass and outplayed all of my reeds. Learn by doing, but for some guidelines on general methods, try these:

http://www.tibbs-vision.com/tibbs/col.html

http://www.dornpub.com/SaxjPDF/reed2.pdf

[jbtsax]

This link has several books on reed making and adjusting. The Kalman Opperman book (3rd one down) is the one I used years ago. Back then it was considered the "Bible" of making and adjusting single reeds. I'm not familiar with the newer ones. http://www.vcisinc.com/reeds.htm

John

[Dave Dolson]

I wet a new reed, play it, and then usually need to scrape it down. I keep it on the mouthpiece for stability, and keep the mouthpiece on the neck. If it is a soprano, I keep the neck on the horn. Alto/C-Mel/tenor - I take the neck off the horn.

I lay the back of the mouthpiece on the edge of the kitchen sink, take my sharp pocket knife, and begin scraping small amounts of bark off the reed's vamp by holding the blade's edge perpendicular to the reed. I don't cut, I scrape.

I stay away from the edges and the tip. I scrape a bit, rinse it under the faucet, play it, and repeat until the reed is playing better than it did when new (and they all seem to need this process). It doesn't require removing too much bark, but you will know it when the reed comes in to playing shape.

I did not read books about it (although if you feel the need to read up on it, do it) and I did not buy expensive tools to do this. I taught myself to do it. DAVE

[jazzbluescat]

I use an emery board to take off/balance the rails. If more shaving/sanding is required I throw it away because I've never had luck making a extremely strong reed work, or save it in hopes of divine intervention:). Usually if a reed is too strong I've bought the wrong strength, or brand.

[gearaholic]

I have worked on reeds some in the past, with varying success. I have a question for you guys that work on them pretty regularly. Do you find that after you work on a reed, it wears out quicker? I'm not talking about just sanding the table or polishing the vamp, but when you actually shave parts of the vamp. My teacher has improved several reeds over the past few years for me. Every time she fixes the reed, it plays much better, but then wears out rather quickly, within a matter of a days. I have read accounts of this same problem from some of Joe Allard's students. Is there a certain area of the reed that adjustment will cause to wear out quickly, or what?

I've also seen several interviews (can't remember specifics, but one was in a Selmer magazine) in which artists claim that they never shave reeds, but will clip them. Usually, the only adjustments I will make are using sandpaper to flatten the table or polish the vamp, and clipping reeds that are too soft with a Cordier reed trimmer.

[Dave Dolson]

I have not experienced excessive wear with the reeds I've adjusted. I do the recommended prep (see the text in Vandoren reeds' boxes as an example) in addition to afore-described scraping, and store them in reed-guards in my cases when I am finished playing them.

By the way, I wanted to comment on the smoothness of the vamps - and polishing the vamps. When I scrape my reeds, they do not look smooth to the eye - kinda lumpy or grainy, in a way. But that has never bothered me - I can't feel it and the reeds play great. DAVE

[gearaholic]

What text in Vandoren boxes are you referring to? All that's in the boxes I buy are advertisements for ligatures or mouthpieces.

On the vamp smoothness: I know what you mean about the lumpiness. That's what they look like when worked on with a reed knife. I agree with you, that's not really noticable when playing. I was referring to lightly sanding the vamp to remove the scratchiness, which also has the effect of sealing the reed, I believe. I don't really do that much any more due to lack of time, but I have a friend who can't stand to play on unpolished reeds because they irritate his lips. Also, I believe the new Rico Reserve reeds come polished/smoothed from the factory.

[Agent27]

Maybe he meant the instructions that come with Superials?

http://www.superial.com/mainten_breakin.html

[awholley]

If you are just getting started with reed adjustment, I'd recommend the Ridenour ATG reed adjistment system. The tools are pretty basic and are included with a detailed guide and a DVD video. It's the video that differentiates this from the other (also very good) books on the subject such as Opperman.

Ridenour actually demonstrates his adjustment techniques as well as his performance testing techniques. Thus you can hear what the problem is, see what he does to correct it, and hear the change afterwards. It's a very pragmatic approach, based on how the reed plays, rather than how it looks or measures.

The only down side at all is that the demos are on clarinet, but the process and effectiveness are exactly the same on sax.

[Dave Dolson]

I THOUGHT that Vandoren included some literature about reed-prep . . . seems that I recall finding a folded sheet of paper in Vandoren boxes, but it coulda been Alexander's, too. The point is that reed-prep is fairly common (as opposed to reed adjustments) and reed-prep is probably a necessary process for long-term reed-life (and playing pleasure).

The sanding of the vamps after adjusting them may serve to seal the pores. I rub them with my thumb many times before I put them away. If a lumpy vamp bothers some players, sand them, by all means.

Alan, maybe a video and tools is the way to go for some folks, but I see it as overkill. I think we've all read college texts, published by academics who need to publish-or-perish . . . silly texts that take 400 pages to tell someone how to open a door. In my view, reep prep and adjusting is not rocket science and the methods discussed here on SOTW should suffice - at least enough for even a newbie to teach himself how to do it. I say buy a few boxes and get to work. DAVE

[awholley]

I agree there's plenty of reed-related info here, though I suspect one would have to wade through a great deal of chaff and even mis-information. Most of the info I have personally noticed was about reed preparation as opposed to reed adjustment.

The ATG stuff, in my opinion, is the most concise, simple, straightforward and pragmatic way to adjust a reed. No voodoo, no light tests or evaluating the way a reed is cut. Just test, sand the area that's a problem like you saw in the video, and test again until it's balanced.

It's 100% based on your play testing the reed, and after all, what else matters?

[docformat]

Yeah - another vote for the ATG method here.

If you are starting off it is simple clear and pragmatic. Reading people like Teal made me more confused than before.

[andrewbowie]

I found this the answer to all my problems: you can download the video for 15 dollars (it plays on iTunes), and it pays for itself within a week or so, as so many more reeds can be made to work.

http://www.theperfectreed.ca/

[Canadiain]

How do you shave your reeds? I've read about this process but exactly how's it done? Everyone has their personal preferences.
The Ridenour ATG system. Its foolproof, really. Dead easy to learn and use, and results in great reeds virtually every time.

Even the ones that are good out of the box can be tweaked a little better with this method.


http://www.wwbw.com/Ridenour-Professional-ATG-Reed-Finishing-System-i133320.music

[jazzbluescat]

It's hard to believe that anybody'd pay $64 for a book that tells you how to shave reeds. *tsk*

[awholley]

I found this the answer to all my problems: you can download the video for 15 dollars (it plays on iTunes), and it pays for itself within a week or so, as so many more reeds can be made to work.

http://www.theperfectreed.ca/

I paid to download it, and so far, have nothing (and no contact).

Alan

[awholley]

It's hard to believe that anybody'd pay $64 for a book that tells you how to shave reeds. *tsk*

It was the "*tsk*" that prompts my reply, not your complaint about the price which I also wish were lower, but it isn't.

1) It's a DVD and a book.
2) Wouldn't that be about the rate for a private lesson? Only you couldn't get the private lesson again for "free" any time you felt like a review.
3) How is learning to control one of your most important tools (reeds) any less valuable than learning a new scale, fingering lick, or interpretation, which is what you'd otherwise pay $50/hour or more for from an expert? I think I paid Mark Popkin more than that for a bassoon reed-making lesson (in person) 20 years ago.

I rarely need to tweak a reed, but when I do, this works. At the rate so many others here on SOTW seem to toss reeds ("I only get 2-3 out of a box that play." is a common complaint.) it seems like a slam dunk if it works for them even partially.

[Agent27]

I paid to download it, and so far, have nothing (and no contact).

Alan

Let us know how it goes and how it compares.

[docformat]

It's hard to believe that anybody'd pay $64 for a book that tells you how to shave reeds. *tsk*

I got one of the cheapo VHS ones that were floating round here a while back

[andrewbowie]

I paid to download it, and so far, have nothing (and no contact).

Alan
He took a bit of time to get back to me as well - he's an orchestra player - but I'm sure he'll be in touch as soon as he can. It's worth the wait.

[gelliot2]

I've used the ATG system for years and the initial outlay was quickly recouped in perfectly playing reeds.

Believe me, $64 is a snip when compared with the benefits.

[Canadiain]

I got one of the cheapo VHS ones that were floating round here a while back
Me too, but even at the full price of $64 it would have saved the outlay many times over in the number of reeds I now can use that I would have tossed before.

Besides, its not just the information, its the materials to work the reeds too, so all in all not a bad deal.

[awholley]

I paid to download it, and so far, have nothing (and no contact).

Alan

Got it. It's not bad -especially for $15.00. It compliments the ATG, in that it shows scraping techniques and preparation techniques. Where the ATG offering continues to be strong, though is in analysis techniques; Ridenour demonstrates a test situation with an unbalanced reed, and shows you what to do about it. You can actually hear what the problem is that he is addressing and how the solution changes the result.

[Dave Dolson]

Alan, and Everyone Else Who Thinks A DVD/VIDEO and Special Tools Are Necessary: I agree with jazzbluescat . . . I mean, for the price of ONE box of reeds and a sharp knife (which most of us have somewhere around the house), one could teach him/herself to adjust reeds. That's what I did, and I am no genius when it comes to working anything by hand.

Oh, I'm not angry about all of this, just discussing it. But my goodness, I don't need that professor's 400-page book to tell me how to open a door! And I don't think anyone here on SOTW needs it either.

I agree that reed-adjusting is not a waste of time, that to merely throw away several reeds from a box is wasteful when they ALL could be made playable. But it can be done for a LOT less than this whiz-bang DVD and special tool.

Funny how some folks who ask endless questions about whether or not to pop dollars for a mouthpiece (as if the cost is prohibitive) are urging (or are urged) to spend $64.00 for a DVD and tools that in my view are superflous. I'd rather spend $20.00 on a box of test-reeds and the rest on a mouthpiece to try.

But hey, if ya'll want to spend 75% more than is necessary, be my guest. DAVE

[Canadiain]

Alan, and Everyone Else Who Thinks A DVD/VIDEO and Special Tools Are Necessary: I agree with jazzbluescat . . . I mean, for the price of ONE box of reeds and a sharp knife (which most of us have somewhere around the house), one could teach him/herself to adjust reeds. That's what I did, and I am no genius when it comes to working anything by hand.

Oh, I'm not angry about all of this, just discussing it. But my goodness, I don't need that professor's 400-page book to tell me how to open a door! And I don't think anyone here on SOTW needs it either.

I agree that reed-adjusting is not a waste of time, that to merely throw away several reeds from a box is wasteful when they ALL could be made playable. But it can be done for a LOT less than this whiz-bang DVD and special tool.

Funny how some folks who ask endless questions about whether or not to pop dollars for a mouthpiece (as if the cost is prohibitive) are urging (or are urged) to spend $64.00 for a DVD and tools that in my view are superflous. I'd rather spend $20.00 on a box of test-reeds and the rest on a mouthpiece to try.

But hey, if ya'll want to spend 75% more than is necessary, be my guest. DAVE

The reality is though that you are paying for the KNOWLEDGE. Reminds me of the old story of the machine that had 1000s of moving parts and kept going wrong, so they called in the "expert" and he listened to it for 5 minutes and went over to the whirdle sprocket and tapped it lightly with a hammer after which everything was fine. The plant manager was happy till he got the $5000 bill for "services rendered" and confronted the mechanic saying "You were only here for 5 minutes, and just hit it with a hammer, I could have dont that!!!" To which the tech replied "Yes, but would you have known where to hit it?"

I could come here and shoot my mouth of and say all you need is this and that and this otherthing and you do this with it, but its hardly fair to Tom Ridenour who took the time to market a professional piece of kit and put down his knowledge and experience in a good package. I would not want someone doing that to me if I had a better mousetrap, so I wont do it to him, and I hope everyone else feels the same way.

I suppose the big difference in what he teaches is that his technique doesnt use blades which can do more harm than good in my experience, and its really hard to wreck a reed with the ATG system, plus you get immediate positive results. Its really very simple, so simple anyone can do it.


Sure, you could save a few bucks and work out a way through trial and error, but why reinvent the wheel?

[Dave Dolson]

Canadian: Are you implying that I am "shooting off my mouth?" And, that I'm bagging on someone else (like Tom Ridenour, who I don't know and did not know this reed-teaching thing was his)?

Frankly, I don't care if it was someone I know who is marketing such a thing. To me, it is unnecessary - and it should be to most others. There are all sorts of silly things being designed and marketed -= when one comes along that I know about, I feel free to comment on it. DAVE

[Canadiain]

Canadian: Are you implying that I am "shooting off my mouth?" And, that I'm bagging on someone else (like Tom Ridenour, who I don't know and did not know this reed-teaching thing was his)?

Frankly, I don't care if it was someone I know who is marketing such a thing. To me, it is unnecessary - and it should be to most others. There are all sorts of silly things being designed and marketed -= when one comes along that I know about, I feel free to comment on it. DAVE
No, of course not, Im just saying that it would be tempting to spill the beans about the "ATG" technique as its not remotely about taking a sharp knife to anything, but we should resist the temptation.

The ATG system is way easier and more foolproof than using a blade, to the point where really there is no comparison. Im sure you could have some success self teaching yourself how to tune reeds that way, and generations of musicians have done that, but having thrown $30 at the system I will never go back to doing it that way, and when I first saw it I banged my hand on my head, swore a couple of times and chastised myself for not having thought of it myself.

Are you aware how his system works? If not then its no surprise you think this is something others could work out for themselves, but it seemed a unique approach to me, not that Ive studied the other offerings out there in detail. It really does seem to be a better mousetrap to me as it makes thinning/working the tip and shoulders as easy as pie, and thats where I find the real benefit comes.

[awholley]

Well first let me say that if I ruffled anyone's feathers it was unintentional. I am merely trying to make sure that statements made about the ATG system are accurate and fair based on my experiences with it.

If someone is looking for guidance and willing to pay for it, it's a reasonable way to start. If, on the other hand, someone has the same DIY mindset as Dave and wants to figure it out on his or her own, I applaud that independent spirit.

Happy 4th of July!

[Dave Dolson]

I'll agree that anything would be better than using a razor blade! What I offer is a sharp knife . . . one with a substantial, sharp blade (that won't bend under pressure like a flimsy razor blade).

No, I am not familiar with this ATG system. But I am PERFECTLY satisfied with the way I adjust my reeds and it didn't cost me any money to teach myself nor to acquire tools and a video. It is just SO simple to do.

But, if that's what everyone wants, I'll write a book about how to open a door. DAVE

[Canadiain]

Post edited to remove "razor". Same sentiment stands, Ive wrecked as many reeds as Ive saved using a blade, and I never had any luck at all thining the tip and shoulders of a reed that way.

Ive nothing against those who want to figure it out themselves, but the original post did ask how to do it. Im not going to tell how the ATG system works as its something like proprietary knowledge thats available for a not unreasonable cost. But I will say it is simple and it does work, and for me it was well worth the investment I put into it, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel and come up with my own way to do it.

[Rackety Sax]

...I lay the back of the mouthpiece on the edge of the kitchen sink, take my sharp pocket knife, and begin scraping small amounts of bark off the reed's vamp by holding the blade's edge perpendicular to the reed. I don't cut, I scrape...
Dave, did you mean to say bark or wood? If bark, then, as Ricky Ricardo would say, you got some 'splainin' to do ;) , because if I'm reading this diagram correctly there isn't any bark on the vamp.

http://home.comcast.net/~czrzbz/clarinet/images/reed.gif

[Dave Dolson]

I know I wrote "bark", but I was merely referring to the top layer of cane-wood on the vamp. When I scrape my blade against the cane on the vamp, the residue looks like sawdust - very fine scrapings.

In using your diagram, I do not do anything with the butt of the reed (and I realize that's where Bootman drills his). It is the vamp, from the beginning of the slope to the tip of the reed. DAVE

[Rackety Sax]

Got it, thanks Dave.

[Scottysax73]

Maybe its just me but whenever i sand it seems to make the reed dull sounding. Heres a question: ATG says to sand starting from the tip goin down and many others say that you go towards the tip. Which one? does it matter?

[hakukani]

Here's a question:

I read on another reed thread that the differences in stiffness was due to the cane, not the thickness or thinness of the reed. In other words, all reeds are made the same thickness.

If that is the case, then shaving a 5 reed down to have the response of a 3 would be a very different thing than just buying a 3 reed.

Or would it?

[awholley]

The beveled edge of the ATG sander is what makes the difference. I have never (knock wood/reeds) damaged a reed tip with it.

Otherwise it would make sense not to approach the tip from off the reed. I actually have never heard not to sand from the end, though -I have only seen scraping advice about approaching from the vamp side, and it's common sense not to approach the tip of the reed with a knife from the tip end of the reed.

[andrewbowie]

This is just what I do, based on the video I mention earlier in the thread. I don't touch the tip, apart from a very light general sanding to make the overall surface of the reed smooth. All the work is done from the beginning of the cut of the vamp, to about half way, with a reed knife scraping towards the tip. This produces reeds that are very responsive and powerful, and, if given the rest of the treatment (massaging on glass, etc., gentle sanding of the back to make it all even), seem to last. If I mess with the tip, the reed seems to lose its snap.

[Scottysax73]

So lemme ask, the DVD "Working the Single Reed" is it worth buying? I didnt like the ATG method cause my reeds sound like crap after following the video. Im bad at doin my reeds, what does the DVD entail? I knocked my wife up and i play for a living so i cant spend extra $$$ unless it really will make every reed playable.
On a side note, i found the DVD at a store that claims to have the Vandoren reed case for 4 reeds. I thought they no longer made those?

[andrewbowie]

For 15 dollars as a download, it really is worth the money. I use Alexanders and used generally to get 5 or 6 a box to work. This is now 8 or 9: they don't all work equally well, but they all work pretty well, and some work better than I've ever had reeds work before. I've saved the 15 dollars twice over in a short space of time.

[Scottysax73]

Andrew,lemme ask a dumb question. I dont have an Ipod. Can i download it to my computer?

[andrewbowie]

It runs on iTunes on a Mac, and I can't imagine it won't run on iTunes on a pc. Ask him:
order@theperfectreed.com
He may take a day or two to get back to you.

[Jolle]

Funny, I never tossed a reed before it was worn out. Some don't play from the start, but doing overtone exercises most of the time helps enough for them to be useful for practice.

I never shaved reeds either, but would love to be able too. Until now, I was too much afraid to ruin them. I now bought a box of Vandoren V16 that aren't usable on my BergLarsen. Maybe I can try with those ones, I don't play my Goldentone that often.

[Pigpen]

I wet a new reed, play it, and then usually need to scrape it down. I keep it on the mouthpiece for stability, and keep the mouthpiece on the neck. If it is a soprano, I keep the neck on the horn. Alto/C-Mel/tenor - I take the neck off the horn.

I lay the back of the mouthpiece on the edge of the kitchen sink, take my sharp pocket knife, and begin scraping small amounts of bark off the reed's vamp by holding the blade's edge perpendicular to the reed. I don't cut, I scrape.

I stay away from the edges and the tip. I scrape a bit, rinse it under the faucet, play it, and repeat until the reed is playing better than it did when new (and they all seem to need this process). It doesn't require removing too much bark, but you will know it when the reed comes in to playing shape.

I did not read books about it (although if you feel the need to read up on it, do it) and I did not buy expensive tools to do this. I taught myself to do it. DAVE

I just want to say that I tried this technique last night on a couple of stuffy sounding reeds and it worked fantastic. I just laid the reed on a plastic placemat on a table though just to try it. I was amazed at the difference in sound I got, and the reeds seemed to play better than anything I ever get right out of the box.

The beauty of it too is that it took less than a minute to do one: just a few scrapes with a sharp pocket knife using the straight instead of the curved side of the blade. I had always been interested in adjusting my reeds, but never did as it just seemed like too much trouble. This means I got 10 good reeds out of a box of 10 Rico Jazz Selects. Highly recommended. Thanks Dave!

[Dave Dolson]

Pigpen: You are welcome. Nice to read that someone actually benefited from a post of mine. DAVE

[Wailin']

I've tried this. It works really great when the reed is on the mpc. When the reed is taken off then put back on the mpc next time configurations change and the reed doesn't really sound the same. That's my experience. Might be different for others.

[Jazz Is All]

In my view, reep prep and adjusting is not rocket science and the methods discussed here on SOTW should suffice - at least enough for even a newbie to teach himself how to do it. I say buy a few boxes and get to work. DAVE

Mel Martin has a short video clip on his website showing his method of reed prep. No brain surgery here, he very nonchalantly and quickly goes at the reed with an ordinary emery board and a small sanding block until it plays better. I was hesitant to try all that shaving bit and the other techniques I saw mentioned in pages of verbiage elsewhere, but one viewing of Mel was all it took for me to try it his way, and easy as pie my unplayable reeds eased right up.

http://www.ricoreeds.com/Resources/Rico/Videos/melmartin_reedbreakin.wvx

[baga]

I learned a lot about sax playing from doing reeds.
Mel Martin was interesting to watch, pity he did not go into more advanced stuff.

[Wailin']

Reed prep is an individual matter and unique for each player. Some very professional players don't do all of the work I've seen many players posting on this forum.