Sax Gourmet And Goodson Saxes???

[saxmanpete]

Has anyone played the sax Gourmet tenor or goodson bari?I have the tenor and bari here and they are outstanding!I currently am playing mauriat saxes but these are even better...Very big and fat sounding and very comfortable to play...saxmanpete

[Bernards20040]

Oh Dear I am pretty sure no good is going to come of this:(

[Doc Frazier]

LOL!!!

[tjontheroad]

Pete, you should know better...

LET THE PIGEONS LOOSE!!!!

[Sigmund451]

....nah, Its just to easy :twisted:

[saxxsymbol]

has anybody tried these or do we just bash the designer for the sake of fun? i've never tried his horns but i did purchase his thumb rest and love it. i have read some of the old forums on Steve G and obviously there are a lot of hostilities towards him and the problems he had with unison saxes. don't know the details .there was a lot of bashing about and accusations that his new project would crash and burn like unision and right about the time he actually released his new saxes the forum was shut down.

so again, has anybody else tried these new horns ? I don't care if the designer is certifiable or not, do the horns play? I did see the unison sax listed as one of the best in tune saxes on another thread.
tom scott and jay beckenstein are the endorsers. both are monster players.

anybody care to give an objective, educated opinion about these horns? is that possible on this forum?

[jmm1713]

If you buy one make sure its not from goodson himself

[Rick Adams]

As long as everyone takes Saxxsymbol's suggestion and concentrates on actual hands on experience with the horns in question, we should remain on course.
andIf you buy one make sure its not from goodson himself
10 minutes for that request to be ignored - shame, it would be interesting to learn a little about the Goodson horns, I've already learned sufficient about people's opinions of Goodson. I know very little about his horns.

[MusicMedic]

Has anyone played the sax Gourmet tenor or goodson bari?


I have, on two occasions. As a Bari Player, I usually try any Bari I can get my hands and I was fortunate enough try Steve's Bari and compare it to all the other Baris at the shows. Steve has been talking about his Bari for a long time.

The SG baris that I played were both great horns. They played very well in tune with my Lawton 6*B. Steve's bari has a huge sound and plays very evenly. I didn't notice the usually low end problems I am sensitive to on Low A baris. My personal Bari is a Conn 12M and I love it. If I get another Bari (which I will likely have to do for the low A), I will be calling Steve.

[SephirothTNH]

I've played on the SG model alto and thought that it was pretty good. I was shocked that the altissimo key actually worked, and worked quite well at that. However I thought the key rods were kind of soft. There was far more flexibility to them then on other altos I have played on.

[Sax Hut]

Has anyone played the sax Gourmet tenor or goodson bari?I have the tenor and bari here and they are outstanding!I currently am playing mauriat saxes but these are even better...Very big and fat sounding and very comfortable to play...saxmanpete

I'm kinda bummed by "big and fat" these days. Everybody wants BigFat.

Do these horns have the potential to sound like a Selmer, with a sweet bell-tone ringing sound? I have an SML that can be big&fat or sweet and centered. Oh wait, why should I care.... It appears I can get a genuine Selmer for less than an SG (assuming ebay is any guide....)

I suppose what I'm getting at is ..... oh, never mind. What was the price line you were quoted on the SGs? How would you compare build quality relative to a good French-made brand (Selmer, Buffet, SML) or a Yanagisawa?

Lastly, what are the salient differences distinguishing the SaxGourmet from the Steve Goodson models?

[Budget Explosion]

* Saxxsymbol - jay beckenstein was an endorser of regular LA SAX saxes (pre-Goodson) so his endorsment should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Scott was an endorser of LA Saxes's B&S made horn.
* Saxmanpete - you say "I have the tenor and bari here"...what does that mean? Did you buy them for personal use? Are you going to be a dealer of Goodson saxes?

[saxxsymbol]

the SG baris are $ 4500. not much more than a jupiter and several thousand less than any other pro bari.the gold plate altos are $2800 i think. about the same as a custom yamaha 82Z lacquer.
the saxgourmet horns are all hand made with different keywork, bell, bore, etc.
still i haven't blown one. I am real happy with my yamahas and Conn 12M bari. no need for me to try them.Curt at Music Medic has a good reputation though. anybody else tried them?

[William Bua]

Hello all,
I ordered a goodson curved soprano and am taking delivery some time next week. I will be posting a detailed critique in a week. Keep in mind, I got the regular goodson and not the saxgourmet, which doesn't come in a curved soprano, only a saxello style. Anyway, one week away. Cheers

[William Bua]

* Saxxsymbol - jay beckenstein was an endorser of regular LA SAX saxes (pre-Goodson) so his endorsment should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Scott was an endorser of LA Saxes's B&S made horn.
* Saxmanpete - you say "I have the tenor and bari here"...what does that mean? Did you buy them for personal use? Are you going to be a dealer of Goodson saxes?


Hey guys,
According to the L.A. sax website, Tom Scott is playing the new saxgourmet tenor these days. It might be just a paid indorsment or he might actually play them. I guess we will find out at the next gig he plays with a sotw member in attendance who is taking note. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. Cheers, Bill

[Harri Rautiainen]

Hey guys,
According to the L.A. sax website, Tom Scott is playing the new saxgourmet tenor these days. It might be just a paid indorsment or he might actually play them. I guess we will find out at the next gig he plays with a sotw member in attendance who is taking note. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. Cheers, BillFrom horse's mouth:
THE SAXGOURMET DAILY PICAYUNE-INTELLEGENCIER AND JOURNAL EXPRESS

Wednesday, April 18, 2007
Saxophone Endorsers......

"We are all too aware that any instrument maker on the planet would be
all over them to obtain their endorsement, and we are quite happy that
they both chose to use and promote our products. Yes, I see to it that
Tom and Jay are well taken care of, and yes, I provide them with
instruments and other products that we sell.
..................."At least Tom Scott did not put his money where his mouth is.

[Grumps]

From horse's mouth...
Though usually, it's from the other end...

[Bill Mecca]

I know of several instrument endorsers* who did use the horns they endorsed at events, or on certain occasions. The rest of the time they used other horns in their stable. So bear in mind that because someone endorses it does not mean they use that horn exclusively, all the time. (they are gear hounds like many here, and there are some who will just take anything if it's free).




* my statements have nothing to do with the specific horns in question, but rather deal with the instrument endorsements in general.

[Swingtone]

If you've been lurking around here long enough to know where the "bodies are buried" you should also keep in mind that Mr. Goodson has a not-so-rosy history with a few of the mods on here, both past and present. So with that in mind, we should all take "critiques of critiques" with a grain of salt to boot.... :D

I have read on the saxquest forum that Goodson has done extensive research to replicate the alloy formulas of the great horns of yesteryear, and that his horns are comparable quality-wise with the P. Mauriats, which also come out of Taiwan. The only difference is that the Goodson horns cost a lot less. If you want to learn more, contact fellow SOTW member Steve "Sarge" Stransky of worldwidesax.com, as the Sarge now carries Goodson's entire line.

[Grumps]

I have read on the saxquest forum that Goodson has done extensive research to replicate the alloy formulas of the great horns of yesteryear...
You don't think that's puffery on the part of the seller?

...which also come out of Taiwan.
Which model are you saying comes out of Taiwan and what is your source, if you don't mind?

[jbtsax]

From the other side of the horse's mouth.:)

Saxnation.com/forum

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:13 pm
A post by John Talcott on SOTW charges that our endorsing artists, Tom Scott and Jay Beckenstein, are paid to endorse our products. This is not true, and never has been true. Our endorsers play our horns of their own free will. If you think about it, these two guys really don't need the money! They could play any horns they wish. Any company would be happy to have them using their products. They chose ours.

Since both artists "frequently appear on our [Goodson's] behalf of at trade shows", does this mean they donate their time for free? :?

John

[Chris S]

We're approaching a thin line between valid discussion and personal flaming. I'm going to continue to let this thread go, but just be careful dudes and dudettes.

[gary]

Since both artists "frequently appear on our [Goodson's] behalf of at trade shows", does this mean they donate their time for free?
John
I don't understand. Why should they?
It seems to me a distinction between getting paid specifically to endorse a product, and giving clinics, etc, that require transportation, lodging and perhaps being adequately compensated for their time, just as they would receive for giving a clinic at a school or other such appearances.

If a person says they do not pay someone to give their endorsement but do compensate them for appearances and clinics I see no conflict.

[jbtsax]

Sorry to disagree Gary but hanging around a booth at a trade show promoting a line of instruments and giving clinics sponsored by a company are two entirely different venues.

The primary purpose of a clinic is to instruct and inspire the participants to become better players. The positive PR and the exposure of the company name is secondary.

The purpose of a well known performer greeting people and playing a few licks at a trade show booth is to attract customers to buy the instruments on display. The artist is being paid to endorse and promote that company's products in that setting. Just being there is the "endorsement" and playing the horns and talking to the public is the "promotion".

Also wouldn't free instruments worth several thousand dollars be considered a "payment" for that artist's endorsement as well?

John

[gary]

I'm referring only to the quote that implies that they should not receive pay for their time. These guys are top-tier musicians and their time is valuable, even if it's just schmoozing customers. I see no reason why they should not be compensated for their time.

[Bill Mecca]

Gary,

I believe John's statement was a rhetorical question, and therefore you are both on the same page.

[TENORPONCH]

has anybody tried these or do we just bash the designer for the sake of fun? i've never tried his horns but i did purchase his thumb rest and love it. i have read some of the old forums on Steve G and obviously there are a lot of hostilities towards him and the problems he had with unison saxes. don't know the details .there was a lot of bashing about and accusations that his new project would crash and burn like unision and right about the time he actually released his new saxes the forum was shut down.

so again, has anybody else tried these new horns ? I don't care if the designer is certifiable or not, do the horns play? I did see the unison sax listed as one of the best in tune saxes on another thread.
tom scott and jay beckenstein are the endorsers. both are monster players.

anybody care to give an objective, educated opinion about these horns? is that possible on this forum?



I tried one of those saxes awhile back. Couldn't get a decent sound out of them,but i think that the horns had been mishandled a bit.They were badly out of alignment.They were beautiful looking horns though.8-)

[TENORPONCH]

actually i tried two altos & two tenors,that would make it plural nat singular.SORRY for my bad grammar (not to mention my spelling). Actually the SAX GOURMET & the STEVE GOODSON are 2 totally different horns.8-) 8-) 8-)

[Simon Weiner]

I was going to ignore the thread due to the ongoing drama, but decided to add my two cents, or 1 cent.

I have been carrying the Goodson horns for a few months now and have had good success with the bari horns. They are very nice instruments and people seem to enjoy them. I think it is really one of those things that needs to be tried to be appreciated.

[Grumps]

I wouldn't want to be selling horns that might violate US Customs regulations, that's for sure. Unless of course they're marked with country of origin as required to notify the ultimate purchaer.

[saxxsymbol]

I purchased a Steve Goodson Model Alto from steve's ebay store. This was a demo model in excellent shape. There was a sticker on the neck socket plug that said " made in Taiwain" This would satisfy legal requirements. Great horn BTW. Sold my 82 Z right here on SOTW ( donation sent) to keep this as my main axe. Much richer sound but can and will scream when pushed.I did an intonation study in the another thread. I don't know how to link to it. It is in the mouthpiece section by dogpants.

EDIT: This is the thread he's referring to: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=87193

[Grumps]

There was a sticker on the neck socket plug that said " made in Taiwain" This would satisfy legal requirements.
For the neck plug maybe. I myself have a hard time believing the horns are made in Taiwan, as you'd think with their improving reputation, the producer would be proud of having the horns come from there. This mystery is old news however and further debate is practically useless in this regard. Those who don't care will perhaps buy them, but those who still have questions unanswered will avoid the brand. No one can make the designer comply with regulations other than the feds who probably have more pressing border concerns. I can only assume the producer doesn't want you to know where the horns come from because it would hinder sales; which is of course ironic, as I can't imagine a worse deal breaker for knowledgeable consumers.

[saxxsymbol]

Hey Grumps, we sell billiard cues from china and the only place they are marked is a removable sticker from the removable rubber bumper at the butt end of the cue. This does satisfy the legal requirement.
I think the country of manufacture was not revealed by Steve to cause more buzz and controversy and make people talk about it more.

[gary]

I think the country of manufacture was not revealed by Steve to cause more buzz and controversy and make people talk about it more.

Well it sure worked in at least one case!! :D

[Grumps]

Hey Grumps, we sell billiard cues from china and the only place they are marked is a removable sticker from the removable rubber bumper at the butt end of the cue. This does satisfy the legal requirement.
If it's accurate, sure. That would be fine for a pool cue. But the statute is cited elsewhere. Go read it if you'd like, and you'll see the difference. But if the horns were truly made in Taiwan, you'd think the producer would simply say so. That he instead only seems to infer, or have others offer their assumptions, is telling. At least for me, but maybe not for you. And that's cool.

[jbtsax]

According to their vice president in charge of instrument design for Orpheus Musical Instruments, he deals with 19 factories in 5 different countries in Southeast Asia. Revealing which manufacturer makes each model for them that is modified to meet their specification would also reveal to the consumer which other brand(s) of saxophone are similar in design, materials, and production quality that come out of the same factories. If this information got out and consumers discovered they could get a similarly made instrument with another name on it made in the same factory for hundreds less, it would wreak havoc with the brand and its pricing.

A similar thing is happening on SOTW with the Phil Barone saxes that are supposedly exactly the same as the Mauriat brand but costing hundreds less.

I can't imagine any company being so foolish as to purposefully violate Federal law just to make people talk about their products more---although Guardala is currently getting more name recognition than at any other time in his career. :D

John

[saxxsymbol]

Barones horns are more than a thousand cheaper than P. Mauriats.
I saw a maxtone alto for sale the other day here that had some of the same features as goodson's intermediate horns, the Orpheo's. Very similar, of course I can't measure bore and tone hole placement.

Goodson has four different lines of his own. The Vespro, Orpheo, Steve Goodson model and the Saxgourmet hand made horns. He also has a classical specific handmade alto, the Marcel. He may have a different factory for each, I don't know. Some other poster said his Vespro box said made in taiwain and the case said made in vietnam.

[Grumps]

Some other poster said his Vespro box said made in taiwain and the case said made in vietnam.
If it was Thomas Bowles, and I believe it just may have been, that's been proven to be the producer himself posing anonymously online as a satisfied customer and defender of the realm. It is believed that many other members on the producer's forum are also actually the producer himself. Comical really.

[whaler]

According to their vice president in charge of instrument design for Orpheus Musical Instruments, he deals with 19 factories in 5 different countries in Southeast Asia. Revealing which manufacturer makes each model for them that is modified to meet their specification would also reveal to the consumer which other brand(s) of saxophone are similar in design, materials, and production quality that come out of the same factories. If this information got out and consumers discovered they could get a similarly made instrument with another name on it made in the same factory for hundreds less, it would wreak havoc with the brand and its pricing.

A similar thing is happening on SOTW with the Phil Barone saxes that are supposedly exactly the same as the Mauriat brand but costing hundreds less.

I can't imagine any company being so foolish as to purposefully violate Federal law just to make people talk about their products more---although Guardala is currently getting more name recognition than at any other time in his career. :D

John

You just gave all the best reasons for staying away from Taiwanese (Chinese) horns. A bunch of pieces brought in from a bunch of different factories and then made to fit together. We already have to deal with our cars made like this and now our saxophones too. No thanks.

[milandro]

You just gave all the best reasons for staying away from Taiwanese (Chinese) horns. A bunch of pieces brought in from a bunch of different factories and then made to fit together. We already have to deal with our cars made like this and now our saxophones too. No thanks.

I am sorry Whaler but I strongly feel that this is the type of blanket statement which has very little beef other than being little more than chauvinistic general and mostly unsubstantiated accusation, are simply unfair.

Each brand and each type of horn , should solely be judged on merits and not by the country they come from.

[Grumps]

Each brand and each type of horn , should solely be judged on merits and not by the country they come from.
Child labor laws notwithstanding...

[milandro]

Child labor laws notwithstanding...

and you do know, for a fact that in Taiwan or China they (any or all?) use children to make saxophones Grumps?........or is this just a slight libelous thing to say......? I wonder

[Al Stevens]

You just gave all the best reasons for staying away from Taiwanese (Chinese) horns. A bunch of pieces brought in from a bunch of different factories and then made to fit together. We already have to deal with our cars made like this and now our saxophones too. No thanks.
Is there something wrong with your car?

[Swingtone]

A similar thing is happening on SOTW with the Phil Barone saxes that are supposedly exactly the same as the Mauriat brand but costing hundreds less.

I am glad you raised this point because I have inquired about it more than once and never gotten a response, so I'll try again:

Are Phil Barone's saxophones stamped with the country of origin? In other words, if they are in fact made in Taiwain, do the say "Made in Taiwan" anywhere on them?

Thanks in advance to anyone who has one of these and can check for not just me, but all who are curious about this.

[Al Stevens]

In a word, yes. There is on Barone horns (I have two) a removable sticker that says, "Taiwan." I don't remember whether it says "made in" though. I peeled it off and threw it away. It wasn't on my tenor; Phil had the tenor for a while before I bought it, and he and his son were test playing it. They probably removed it.

[saxxsymbol]

I suspect that much like a mattress the sticker only has to stay there until it reaches the customer. Horns don't have to say where they are made in a permanent form. I don't know why that thought is permeates here. Do the Cannonballs or P. Mauriats say Made in Taiwain right on the horn in permanent engraving.
I think Cannonballs say" Salt lake City" and P. Mauriats say "Paris" ?????
Oh and Cannonballs use Japanese Brass where as P.M.'s use French Brass ????

[Swingtone]

I suspect that much like a mattress the sticker only has to stay there until it reaches the customer. Horns don't have to say where they are made in a permanent form. I don't know why that thought is permeates here. Do the Cannonballs or P. Mauriats say Made in Taiwain right on the horn in permanent engraving.
I think Cannonballs say" Salt lake City" and P. Mauriats say "Paris" ?????
Oh and Cannonballs use Japanese Brass where as P.M.'s use French Brass ????

The thought doesn't really permeate that much with me (I just used a larger font to get attention), but it seems to with another member who has made a campaign against Steve Goodson over the fact that his horns are not marked with their country of origin. I guess all I'm saying is if we are going to be critical on this point with one guy who is putting his name on these Far Eastern jobbies, shouldn't we use the same standards when critiquing the products of others who engage in these kinds of ventures?

BTW most of my horns go beyond indicating the country of origin. Two of them are stamped "Elkhart, Indiana" and the other is marked "Cleveland, Ohio." That's pretty darn specific. I guess if I can't have the city (Tapei?--trying to remember my high school geography), I at least want to know the damn country (e.g., is it Red China or Taiwan--big difference in my book). Not a lot to ask for if you ask me. :)

[jbtsax]

This U.S. Customs Ruling Letter (http://rulings.cbp.gov/index.asp?ru=j86298&qu=musical+instruments&vw=detail)spells out the requirement for imported saxophones. All of the saxophones from Cannonball have either "made in Taiwan" engraved on the body of the sax or a sticker containing the same language to be in complete compliance with the law. The law is neither "fuzzy" nor does it allow that "only the shipping container has to be marked" as has been erroneously reported on other forums.
With regard to the permanency of a marking, section 134.41(a), Customs Regulations (19 CFR 134.41(a)), provides that as a general rule marking requirements are best met by marking worked into the article at the time of manufacture. For example, it is suggested that the country of origin on metal articles be die sunk, molded in, or etched. However, section 134.44, Customs Regulations (19 CFR 134.44), generally provides that any marking that is sufficiently permanent so that it will remain on the article until it reaches the ultimate purchaser unless deliberately removed is acceptable.

I agree 100% with Swingtone that all vendors need to be held to the same standard and critiqued accordingly. It is unfortunate that Kessler Music also chooses to conceal the country of origin of the imported instruments bearing their name.

On January 1, 2008 I sent the following request to the U.S. Customs Office:
It has come to my attention that a company importing musical instruments from somewhere in Asia to the US is concealing the country of origin from the purchaser by not labeling the merchandise as required by law.

My question is to whom do I report this violation, and what is the procedure for doing so. Thank you.

The response by email I received March 5 was as follows:
Response (Julie) 03/05/2008 04:46 PM
Please call 1 (800) BE ALERT [232-5378] to report the fraud.



John

[CurlyLocks]

John,

Did you "report the fraud"?

[saxxsymbol]

This is like the third or fourth time I have said this but MY STEVE GOODSON MODEL SAX HAD A STICKER THAT SAID " MADE IN TAIWAIN " ON IT. This seems to satisfy the legal requirements. I suspect that some companies permanently mark their saxes out of pride.

[saxxsymbol]

And I just received another Saxgourmet thumbrest for the third alto player and it was marked ( had a sticker )" made in pakistan ". I guess that is one of the five factories that Orpheous is talking about that parts of their horn come from.

[saxxsymbol]

CurlyLocks, what do you think John did? Live and let live ?

[CurlyLocks]

If I knew, I wouldn't have asked.

But, if the horn plays, who cares?

[saxxsymbol]

I really like both of my imported horns and I like my American made Conn too.

[CurlyLocks]

I've got a few Asian/Japanese horns as well as an American Conn alto too. All very capable specimens.

[jbtsax]

John,

Did you "report the fraud"?
Since I have posted this response on several saxophone forums, there is a possibility that any number of people could have acted upon this information from the Customs Office. :)

This is like the third or fourth time I have said this but MY STEVE GOODSON MODEL SAX HAD A STICKER THAT SAID " MADE IN TAIWAIN " ON IT. This seems to satisfy the legal requirements. I suspect that some companies permanently mark their saxes out of pride.
All you can say for sure is that the end plug was marked made in Taiwan. Why don't you ask S.G. himself where the saxophone itself was manufactured, and let the rest of us know when you find out?

John

[saxxsymbol]

Thats a good thing, right? Well done.

[saxxsymbol]

I personally don't care where it was made. This horn sings, has a unique voice and is a pleasure to play.feels solid and is very heavy. It also doesn't hurt that it is the prettiest alto I have ever seen.

[milandro]

In all fairness, although I don't think there's anything wrong, in principle, in any Asian horn, that the consumer has the right to know, and the makers/marketers the obligation to inform the buyer, of the whereabouts of the production factory location of any given item.
So, it should be compulsory (as indeed it is) to mark, and mark permanently not with a removable sticker, any product, including saxophones.

[jrvinson45]

It sounds as if there have been a lot of hairs split in this thread. Frankly, I have seem numerous posts in this forum by Dave Kessler stating that his Kessler Customs are of Taiwanese manufacture and upon I occasion said that he has had to try more than one manufacturer to keep his prices in check and his quality up to a standard. Additionally, he said that his Solist line was made in China. He has never even hinted that his instruments came from another source. I think that in the absence of a disclaimer by anyone such as "IMHO" when implying there is anything fraudulent about Mr. Kessler's outstanding business ethics is boardering upon being slanderous. The Kessler logo with "Las Vegas" doesn't say "made in" any more than Cannonball says about SLC. I've bought horns manufactured in the US, France, and Taiwan and frankly Scarlet, I don't give a hoot anymore since I can no longer support an American made brand. I still drive US made cars, but there's a reason that Ford stock is in the toilet. Fortunately I can still support the Dave Kesslers and Phil Barones an Lukats(sp?) All of them are trying to inject themselves into the process of providing a better product by staking their reputation on an imported product (yeah, even Steve G) and the imported products are better because of them. Bad-mouthing these folks at best makes you look petty, and at worst potentially libelous. I'm glad to
hear that the Vintage tenors are receiving good reviews, as are the Barones. Anyone tried the Vintage alto yet?

[Al Stevens]

I guess all I'm saying is if we are going to be critical on this point with one guy who is putting his name on these Far Eastern jobbies, shouldn't we use the same standards when critiquing the products of others who engage in these kinds of ventures?
Your question was specifically about Barone products. Your question was answered.

[Al Stevens]

So, it should be compulsory (as indeed it is) to mark, and mark permanently not with a removable sticker, any product, including saxophones.(Emphasis added.)
Not the way I read it. The sticker is acceptable based on the quote provided earlier.

With regard to the permanency of a marking, section 134.41(a), Customs Regulations (19 CFR 134.41(a)), provides that as a general rule marking requirements are best met by marking worked into the article at the time of manufacture. For example, it is suggested that the country of origin on metal articles be die sunk, molded in, or etched. However, section 134.44, Customs Regulations (19 CFR 134.44), generally provides that any marking that is sufficiently permanent so that it will remain on the article until it reaches the ultimate purchaser unless deliberately removed is acceptable.

It doesn't even say that it is illegal to deliberately remove the sticker prior to sending it to the ultimate purchaser. To the contrary, it implies that it is okay to do so. This language is vague, weak, and ambiguous. Maybe section 134.44, Customs Regulations (19 CFR 134.44) itself is less so.

[jbtsax]

It doesn't even say that it is illegal to deliberately remove the sticker prior to sending it to the ultimate purchaser. To the contrary, it implies that it is okay to do so. This language is vague, weak, and ambiguous. Maybe section 134.44, Customs Regulations (19 CFR 134.44) itself is less so. The language used in this U.S. Customs Ruling Letter interprets the statute as it applies to imported saxophones. Each paragraph needs to be read in the context of the entire letter. To me the portion highlighted by Al Stevens says very clearly that if the marking is not permanently etched into the metal surface, that the information be attached to the article in such a way that it would be impossible for it to fall off accidentally and must be deliberately removed.

To further clarify the issue, this language is from the booklet provided to Importers by the U.S. Customs Service.

Marking of Country of Origin on U.S. Imports

General Information
Every article of foreign origin entering the United States must be legibly marked with the English name of the country of origin unless an exception from marking is provided for in the law.

What is the purpose of marking?
To inform the ultimate purchaser in the United States of the country in which the imported article was made.

Who is the ultimate purchaser?
The ultimate purchaser is generally the last person in the United States who will receive the article in the form in which it was imported.

How permanent must the marking be?
The article should be marked as indelibly and permanently as the nature of the product will permit.

John

[fballatore]

What a surprise, this thread has devolved, and the topic has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. I'm closing this one.

[Chris S]

FWIW, this thread should have been closed as soon as it was revived, as a certain poster had been warned about re-opening old threads.

We've all heard the arguments about where the horns are made, etc. etc. And none of that really has anything to do with how a particular instrument plays (which is what this thread originally was concerned with). How it plays and where it was made are two separate issues.

If you want to discuss that issue, I encourage one of you (jb, Al, Grumps) to start a new thread in the legal issues subforum or even in the Hot Topics forum. I'll even move all the posts from this thread that deal with the importing issue there.

Otherwise, feel free to PM me with any other suggestions (aside from the few suggestions that we've already gotten about re-opening this one as well as a few with where we can stick certain things.... not appreciated and not the slightest bit helpful).

Thanks,
Chris S