Any info Tenor Ida maria S/No 1609

[simso]

Hi folks, Ive just become the owner of a Ida maria grassi Tenor Sax, It has the serial No 1609 on it. It needs serious work and overhaul, Does anyone know any info on these ect, anything will help
Thanks Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

simso.
You may notice that half the threads on this board are appeals for history of the various models of Grassi saxophones.
We know that some are top flight and others were made as student models. It was assumed that the last to leave the factory were the best, but that hypothesis has been blown out of the water on discovering that a 1960s "Jade" model compares favourably with a Selmer Mk6; this information from a contributor who has both.
Does your Grassi have a model name? No serial number details seem to exist.

[simso]

Yeh I kind of noticed this site and the net are a bit vague on these, But these are beautiful looking instruments, Ive completely stripped my unit and am wrapped at how good of a condition it still is, Im assuming its from around the 20s or even 30s because of the low low low serial no. Every thing seems to be solidly built, the only labels on it are the emblem which saids ida-maria grassi & Co Milano Italy, Then a floral design and fabrica strumenti musicali italiani. Am going to overhaul it anyway and see where it takes me. Heres a photo of it stripped and complete

[The A Train]

I doubt it's anywhere near 20s or 30s, it has sheet metal key guards which were not made till much later.

[simso]

That makes sense, I had simply made an assupmtion by how low the serial no was. If anyone has any links or ideas I would greatly appreciate it.
Im dropping the stripped body of to a mate tommorrow who does electroplating for a living and organising him to buff the body up, apparently hes done them before, so Ill see what happens. Ive soldered up the loose posts and frame clamp, and theres no sucken or damaged tone holes so thats a great start.
Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

Agree with A Train...much later than the 20' or 30s. Axles run down the middle not the side. High E seems to have a lip at the top. Never seen a bell brace like that before on a Grassi. Could be 60s, but that's a guess.
Are you going to re-lacquer it or leave it bare brass? Ask your mate to go easy on the buffing...I preferred to bead blast mine as the gentler option. Nice looking horn....please keep us in the picture.

[simso]

I dont know whether to relaquer or not, thats an unknown for me. Im going to get it buffed gently to clean it up not to try and make it perfect. Paul whose the electroplater said, once buffed you can either leave it or lacquer it. I dont know whats involved yet in relaquering or whether theres any advantages gained either way, definetly open for suggestions recommendations. I have to make a couple of shims to space out two of the lower keys because I had to cut the keys and rods to get them of, the heads had been snapped of the through bolts and they had been glued into place. the give away was the rust at the join point, but i had to cut it to get it off. Ill spin up a couple of brass shims on the lathe when I go to re-assemble it. Definetly an enjoyable project.

[Captain Beeflat]

Decisions, decisions. After bead blasting I have left mine as bare brass...going splendidly green. You have that choice, clear lacquer, mix black into the clear lacquer, or even mix bronze into the clear lacquer to give that lovely dark patina effect that occurs on vintage Martins.
You, by sawing through the swivel screws, have taken a different route to mine when faced with your problem...I unsolder the posts.
Good for you, you seem to know exactly what you are doing, and I look forward to photographs of the finished horn.
I have just re-padded mine with hard pads; after the "floating in" stage, I was amazed that everything sealed and the horn now plays perfectly, usually there is a fiddling and faffing period....I had forgotten what a jolly good horn it is...out gigging with it tonight.

[Sidepipes]

Never seen a bell brace like that before on a Grassi. Could be 60s, but that's a guess.


Hi Guys, I have both alto and tenor in the jade series. The bell brace is the circular Selmer style. This one looks reminiscent of the brace on my Martin Indiana's. This should be a great project!

--Sidepipes

[Captain Beeflat]

Good gracious...both a tenor and an alto in the Jade series...very tasty. Off topic, I know, but how does the Jade tenor compare with your Mk6 tenor? You have already, very kindly, given us a comparison of the equivalent altos.

[Sidepipes]

Hi Captain, The tenor is in Colin Price's shop for a little damage repair, but I hope to have it back this week. I'll try to give you a comparison after that. Also, I couldn't tell from Simso's pictures, but my Jade's have ribbed post construction, if that is any help for identification.

--Sidepipes

[simso]

I dont know if this is what you mean but about 80 percent of the posts are mounted on braces joining them together and then onto the horn. Theres a couple that just have a circular base but not many, ive included a photo. Yep you guys are right it cant be that old because it also has under bow bracing in case it gets dropped and Im pretty sure most early saxes never had this option. Is there a special type of lacquer you use because I dont like the green option thing happening thats for sure. Or is it just a 2 pac clear coat like they use on cars ect. Taking it today to get buffed have it back next week, and then let the fun begin
Steve

[HUTMO]

I believe you are making a mistake by letting a non musical repair person buff your sax. A wrong move and a tone hole is messed up. Are you leaving the springs on it?

If it were mine... hand finish the horn and be happy, leave it what it is or take it to an individual who knows something about buffing saxophones. I wish you good luck with what ever you do.

As for finish... Ferees (sp?) sells the appropriate type of lacquer to use. Again there is something to be said about experience in this field.


Cyber sax has a great section on hand refinsihing saxophones click below, it may help you a bit.
PLEASE GO THROUGH THESE BEFORE DOING ANYTHING TO THIS SAX (http://www.cybersax.com/QA/Q&A_Topic_Directory.html)


Again... best of luck because that is a cool old horn. I am currently working on a bari that I am refinishing and rebuilding. The amount of time and labor is high so do it right! :D


Best regards,
HUTMO

[simso]

Well its a risk you gotta take. I really really dont like crappy looking horns all tarnished dull. My mate paul is not a repair tech but is an electroplater and according to him used to polish numerous saxophones and brass instruments at the last place he worked at. He said not an issue whatsoever, so Ill leave it with him. He did a quick polish on the neck for me and I was stunned at the brilliance of colour that is still in the instrument. In seconds it was mirror quality finish. Looking forward to getting the whole thing back next week
Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

Please do not let anyone loose on your horn with a buffer. I have stripped several, and may I suggest that first you try Nitromors, or any chemical paint stripper; this is not as messy as it sounds. The lacquer on my Grassi was impervious to paint stripper so I used a bead blasting cabinet. Bead blasting uses small glass beads and a cabinet can be found typically at vintage motorcycle restoration shops. See if the owner will allow you to carry out the work yourself...mine does; after all it is your horn.
With regard to lacquer. I was fed up with my silver Buescher tarnishing, so I took it to bits, cleaned it and took it to a car paint spray place to be clear lacquered. Modern car lacquers will adhere to bathroom tiles...ten years on and the Buescher still looks great.
simo, I repeat...PLEASE do not anyone hand buff your horn. Apart from anything else, there are places where a buffer cannot reach...it will be a bodge at best. Beadblasting is the only way.

[simso]

Too late, its already gone and I believe already done. He was going to put it into a heated strip tank designed for stripping laquer when I left it with him today. I have a plastic bead blasting cabinet here at home, and an ally oxide blasting cabinet as well. When I go and pick it up ill check to see how much material has been removed, I do non destructive testing for a living, that is I measure and inspect things, so I guess Ill find out now how good he really was at doing this. I have a small paint booth in my shed as well which is set up for two pack paints, so Ill use some clear car laquer that I have already.
Okay cross my fingers and wait now
Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

Steve.
You are obviously a very competent person, but I have to ask why you subjected your horn to a buffer when you have a bead blaster at home. Another advantage of bead blasting is that, as you well know, it results in a matte finish which provides a good key for the lacquer.
Used my re-padded Pro. 2000 at a gig last night....glorious horn. With a No.11 Rico Metalite, even the electric guitarists took notice....and nothing fell off.

[simso]

Yeh I know, but the matt finish does nothing for me, I like that nice reflective type. In hind sight I could have given it a tickle with the blaster and then lived with the matt finish but the offer from me mate to polish it up was just to good to knock back, well I thought it was too good, we will see when I get it back. Ill do some thickness measurements and see what I have

[HUTMO]

Obviously we are wasting our breath (or fingers IN THIS CASE) because a shiny horn is more important to you than doing the right thing for the sax that will make it last longer and play better. BUFF away!!!!:D You will sound good or bad depending upon your talent, not how the sax looks. Such a shame in my book but its your sax.

Best regards... Seriously, I hope that thing shines like a son of a gun for you. It will not play any better if it does. Please share images with us.

HUTMO

[simso]

That was a bit unnecassary, Ive asked for advice and taken it, I jumped the gun a bit and gave it to me mate to plate prior to everyones comments, as I said in hindsight I could have lived with a matt finished unit and plastic bead blasted it myself, but when you get excdited and started you have a tendency or at least I do,to go at things like a bull at a gate and get into it. I contacted him yesterday and he had already started I went and saw him and he gave me a fair bit of info to put me at ease about the buffing and weight variances ect. As I have already pointed out such is life and now Im still okay with the job becasue its already happened, Its gonna play fantastic anyway because of the new pads and all degummed so Im still excited about it, in future I probably will just live with a matt finish, but he is pretty convincing and determined about the miniscule of difference it makes, Ill find out in the end. Well personally I dont know if its even possible to find out what difference it has actually made without first having a second unit completely overhauled and not buffed to use as a comparitor. But still happy and cant wait to start re-assembling. I will post photos if anyone is interested
Enjoy now
Steve
Ps Photo of home made spray booth and blasters. "So you know I wasnt Bullshitting you"

[Captain Beeflat]

Very impressive workshop, and there in front of us is the very machine required to delacquer your horn.
I bead blasted an old King, & with two coats of black lacquer there was no indication of the matte finish...all bright and shiny with the matte just providing the perfect key for the lacquer
That was a trifle strong from HUTMO but it sometimes happens that the written word comes out more abrasively than one's thoughts...possibly such an occasion.

[simso]

Yeh yeh I know, everyones passionate, and so am I, in hindsight I would have gone the way you guys said and thats probably why I was a little testy. But its done and I have to live with it, I have a yammy 21 alto which is gonna be next on my overhaul list and Im just gonna plaky blast it and go a laquer with a tint in it like you mention, I think that with the stock silver keys would look very very nice, Next time

[Captain Beeflat]

Your alto will indeed look yummy when completed...only snag being that it will still sound like a Yam :-)

[The A Train]

I think the anti-buff phobia is a bit extreme here on SOTW. A guy I play with has a '39 10M that has obviously been buffed & relaquered some years ago(and not very well-it looks like someone was training on it) and that thing sings like no other sax I've tried. I tried to buy it off him but he wouldn't budge. I wouldn't hesitate to let someone that knows what they are doing buff a horn of mine that I felt needed it. If fact I'd bet some of you have owned horns that you never knew had been buffed/relaqued-pro refinishers were that good at it. Years ago this was a very common and excepted practice(your local music store probably had tanks in the cellar-mine still does)many were done many times over -some even sent back to the factory for refinishing.

[Captain Beeflat]

Alan...Without doubt you are right in what you say. My main concern with buffing is getting to the nasty little inaccessible places...like around the needle springs. As I have said before, ad nauseam, "...the finish is on the outside and the sound travels down the middle..."

[HUTMO]

I did not mean it to come across so strongly... I did use smiley faces.

I admire anyone who does this type of work. I just was very concerned not about the buffing but rather who was doing the work for you and the possibility of disaster when it would could have been avoided.

I have played a few re-lacquered horns that were monsters. Lets face it, good horns get played and the lacquer wears. If done properly it is not a problem.

I know about getting going on a project and sometimes getting going to quickly. I will soon have my Franken-Bari project on full steam ahead status and I will be certain to share images and my thoughts on this type of project. I have developed a nice game plan to get this thing back together and looking good. Game planning is the key with a project like this.


As for the the paint blasting area... too cool. When I get my next place I will be certain to include something of the sort in my work area. divorce sucks!

Good luck and keep us updated.
HUTMO

[The A Train]

divorce sucks!
After three of them I would have to agree..then again..I guess it was the marriages that sucked. :argue3:

[Captain Beeflat]

One was enough for me.
A Train, have you sold your Medusa? Puzzled by the change of name.

[The A Train]

No, but I probably would if I could get back what I have in it. I have determined that I can get a really good sound from my far less expensive horns(each under a grand)with the right mouthpiece/reed/practice and I am less fearful of dinging them in the tight confines of the Community Band(oh yeah it happenes) So it sits in it's case with it's three necks, protected. I didn't feel I should keep the name since I was rarely playing the Medusa. Then one of the managers where I work started calling me 'The A Train' and since it has my intitials (AT) and is also a jazz standard I thought it would be a great screen name.

[Captain Beeflat]

Alan....Sounds good enough to me.
I have, as you know, a gorgeous R&C tenor that I am frightened to take to gigs in case I bump it into a solid immovable object...like a bass player. I kid myself that I do not worry so much about damaging my much cheaper, but excellent Grassi.

[simso]

Yeh your right about the yammy, it will always be a yamaha studen unit. What do you recommend as a quality alto, and then a good priced value for dollar unit that plays nice as well, they dont have to be new
Here in australia we dont get a lot of choice so everything is purc hased from overseas anyway
Any recommendations

[Captain Beeflat]

simo.
Were I an alto player then I would have no hesitation whatsoever in buying a Grassi "Professional 2000".
A good bet is ebayItalia, for some reason that I do not understand, the Italians have little faith in anything made in Italy. Usually their ebay items state "post to Italy only" but this is a default setting. If you contact the seller he is usually prepares to post to anywhere "responsible"...and that includes Australia of course.
My only alto is a 1925 Conn, which is a very nice little horn; so you could, in my view, include one of those on your search list.

[Captain Beeflat]

simo.
A word of warning.
I have just had a peep at ebay Italia and they have a very new looking Grassi "Professional 200AS" or something, with aBIN price of 365 Euros.
So called Grassis are now being made in China, and, without doubt, this is one of those. They may be good horns, but they are certainly not "Professional 2000s".

[Captain Beeflat]

simo....I have sent you a PM..check your inbox.

[simso]

Picked it back up today,mmm what can I say but WOW!!!!
Paul put it into a paint stripper bath then plastic bead blasted it then buffed it and then chucked it into a solution of nickel brightener. Wow Wow, it looks better than any of my other saxes and I have two altos that are only about 6 months old. Ill start to laquer it tommorrow gotta heat my shed up a little bit first because its cold at the moment, and I dont want to spray laquer on cold brass just asking for trouble. Any recommendations on how to relaquer the inside areas.
Heres a photo up close before and the new one re buffed

[Captain Beeflat]

Absolutely gorgeous...a blank canvas.
Must be quite early as I have never before seen a Grassi with a "Conn" type bell brace.
As it is early, may I suggest a dark bronze colour in the clear lacquer mix to give that lovely vintage patina effect. Simply clear lacquer the bell interior to give a colour contrast.
It really has turned out well...I feared the worst...well done.
The real question will be "how good a saxophone is it"?

[simso]

Ahh the million dollar question, how good will it actually play, well the fact that I am not good enough or skilled enough to play in a band, I only play for my own enjoyment, means I probably will never be able to explore its full potential. So even if its an average student model me thinks I will be very happy. That bronze tint sounds good, Ill see how I go with getting some.
Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

simo.
I have attached a photograph of one of my R&C tenors to give you an idea of the patina colour that can develop with time.
This patina took about 100 years to accrue...you can match it in ten minutes with the right lacquer tint!
By the way, what are you doing about the keywork?
1922

[simso]

Thats nice mate. I was actually originally going to go with a clear laquer on the sax body and then I was going to plastic blast the key work then laquer and leave them in a matt finished appearance, now Im not to sure what Im doing
Steve

[simso]

Okay todays efforts, little bit disappointed it looked darker in the pot than it does on the sax I went for a deep honey colour, but I only put on two thin coats so that may be why it didnt change the colour to much, even then I still managed to get a couple of runs, Its cold temp here. The first on the left is pre and then on the right is post lacquer. I had to put a heat gun into the booth eventually to help warm the brass up
Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

Only a couple of runs? You did well. Will you put on more coats to darken it further....good fast progress.

[simso]

Ill let it dry for about a week and then Ill sand lightly the runs out and then maybe put another two coats on. I aluminium grit blasted some keys and then laquered them to see what they would look like. I threw it on thick and no runs, ally oxide blasting keys the surface fantastic, theyve now got a matt very pale greenish colour to them "I like it" Ill see what they look like fitted on the sax tommorrow and make a Decision whether to do that to all my keys. Frustrating now because theres not much I can do, make a coffee and watch the paint dry I guess
Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

Sounds great; admirable progress. Bronze with pale greenish keywork? Why not.

[simso]

Okay, just about to go to bed, but I thought I cant sleep without knowing what its gonna look like, so I just ducked out and did a quick trial fit to see. So I did, and its different, but I like it, so alls good. Really unusual colour for the keys to come out in. I think its a combination of the ally oxide burnishing the brass.

[simso]

Okay Ive finished cleaning stripping and laquering all keys and the horn. How long do you guys reckon I should leave the laquer to harden before I apply some heat to the cups to repad. Suggestions. Cant wait to start playing this old girl
Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

If you can curb your impatience I should leave it for a fortnight at room temperature.

[simso]

Heh Heh yep you know me already, The wife just got a couple of bass clainets and Im going to repad both of them so thatll slow me down a couple of days, Two weeks sounds like a good idea. But in two weeks and one day Ill be playing it, that much I can guarantee you
Thanks for all the help and info.Im quite spiffed with this old girl, lets just see how good it plays
Enjoy noe
Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

simo.
Time to come clean. Once, when faced with the same situation as yours and overcome with impatience, I stuck the pads in with thick double sided sticky tape. I can here the purists wincing from here!
It was very successful: tilting the pads, where necessary for a good seal by adding wedges of the same material in the appropriate places.
I played that horn for years with no trouble and only shellacked the pads in when I sold the horn.
Not that I could possibly recommend the practice of course. :-)

[simso]

Shame shame shame

[Captain Beeflat]

Why Why Why?
I am surprised, considering your occupation, that you are opposed to any form of innovative thinking. It was MY horn and it worked.
You surely would not have asked the question about curing time if you thought that the relatively hit and miss application of heat was innocuous.

[simso]

Okay impatience won, I set up a heated drying booth and accelearted the curing time. Finished the lacquering and reassembly, I love the contrasting colour between the keys and the body, I need to chase down a few more springs as some have no strength in them and I do have to play with cork heights ect as some of the notes arent right actually not even close. So its assembled but now its got to be tuned for every note. Ill say one thing this was fun and I thouroughly enjoyed doing it. His a pic of a 70 year old girl ready to be played with
Steve

[Captain Beeflat]

Steve.
Presumably, by now, your Grassi is up and running.
We are agog to hear what you think of it.

[MMM]

Simso,

come on put us out of our misery: how does it play???

MMM

[simso]

Hey guys, I was trolling some of my old posts and found that I missed the last two questions, some times for some reason I dont get a email to say such and such has responded.
How does it play, very very nice, about the only thing thats lacking is D is a bit stuffy, its louder than the yammy and boosey tenors I have, but d is muffled, with the key fully opened I have to bring in side key to compensate. Id say this is a hereditary flaw with the instrument but such is life.
Enjoyed it that much, I started to do this for living, currently have 21 saxaphones of which I fix "some of them up" and then resell them.

Steve