subdividing beats

[CLSax]

I know the concept of subdividing and I can clap and count rythms subdividing out loud, but when I put my sax in the mouth I just can't seem to keep a pulse. Help would be appreciated.

[modre]

what kind of miracle hand holding cure are you expecting?
...and if given, how will you impliment the fix any more successfully than the initial post suggests?

here's your answer.
if you can successfully do the mental part with the hands and mouth you're already familiar with, then you need to spend the neccessary hours on the sax to become familiar enough to translate the same mental ability into the sax hardware. it requires a metronome and physical facility (chops) capable of translating thought into a useful form in the physical world.

your post suggests you want a McDonald's fast food solution to life when those of us who have done the homework and spent the hours hear it as a whine-y, non-dedicated "gimme gimme gimme"

saxophone is an appealing instrument, and music is terrific therapy...I can't fault you for wanting to participate...but consider for a moment it also takes a measure of maturity, sophistication, and skill to become accomplished...and some of these questions read louder between the lines.

I'm self taught, other than a brief stint with Andy McGee at Berklee...having come up the hard way, perhaps I don't exibit as much compassion as you may want ...and I would suggest some folks require the hand holding a weekly teacher would provide.

lastly, while these sax sites are a terrific resource, you must also realize the entire community consists of minnows to whales...and prudence may dictate one at least "try" some mental excercise before expecting a welfare handout.

while I may have "dissed" this particular question, trust I will answer any legit saxophone question as honestly and clearly as I possibly can...cutting thru the crap, smoke and mirrors.

[Jon B. Bop]

What Modre is saying (perhaps a little heavy handedly :roll: ) is that practice is your only real solution.

Since you can clap it, then you have it, you now need to feel comfortable enough on your horn to concentrate on the rythmic issues, and not on the playing issues.

I'm an amateur, so I can only give you my experience. What I do is first work on only a small segment of the music. One measure, or 2 beats, or less if i can't get it. Then I clap it, or better sing it, over and over until it's really in my head. Then I try it on the horn. If it's not there, I put the horn down and start over.

Over time, rythmic patterns that trouble you now will become familiar, and you'll recognise them, and play them with no problem as they come up. Until then, it's like everything else, Practice!

[Billy The Fish]

Modre, tsk tsk, that's a pretty unconstructive response. I would suggest if you don't want to help, you don't post, rather than flame the poor guy. For some people, particularly learning a first instrument, the concept of rhythm can actually be a pretty tough one, and it seems to be to be a very valid question. The points you raise may be valid to a degree, but don't preach. There is nothing in the original post to suggest CLSax isn't prepared to work at it - it just apppears to be an expression of frustration at the difficulties he is experiencing.

CLSax, I agree with Jon. Practice, practice, practice. What specifically is causing you a problem? Whatever it is, do two things. Break the problem down into bitesize components - a bar at a time is good (or even just a couple of notes at a time if necessary). Then slow it right down and count - count slowly. If you do it slowly and in small enough chunks you will get there. Also listen a lot, and count along. Listening to other music and counting the beats will help your rhythm no end.

If the problem is more general than that - i.e. you can't keep playing in time, and you can't recognise where the beat falls, try simple exercises. Play using a backing track on a single chord. Now play the root of the chord just on the first beat of each bar - just the single note (indeed you don't need a backing track for this, just use a metronome, and play any note). Then try the following:

1/ Next play on the 1st and 3rd beats of the bar.

2/ Then try swapping the rhythm by just playing that single note on the 2nd and 4th beat of each bar

3/ Then play on each beat, counting 1-2-3-4

4/ now play eighth note patterns using a swing rhythm (counting in your head as you go - e.g. 1 2 & 3 & 4 &). Make up your own variations mixing eighth and quarter notes.

5/ Next make patterns that skip main beats, playing off beats. For example, using brackets to indicate skipped eighth notes - 1 (&) 2 & (3) & 4 (&).

6/ Listen to lots of other people's music.

7/ Now listen to some more.

Do all of the above raising the tempo as you get comfortable, and don't worry about what note you play. Just get comfortable keeping playing in time using yuour chosen rhythm along with the metronome. Once you are comfortable with that, now try varying the notes and create melodic patterns using the same rhythms.

Good luck, and keep practicing.

[jazzbluescat]

I found Joe Viola's Rhythm Sudies book good for reading rhythms. When I get away from the charts it's another story. I'm concentrating on strengthening my basic on-the-beat meter clarity, which, IMO, aids subdividing and rhythms.
Jobim's "No More Blues" is nice for rhythm studying.

[alsdiego]

Gosh modre, could you please be a little more explicit, don't beat around the bush, for God's sake! :(

While Modre's response may indeed be a little heavy-handed, I've got to agree with the underlying point. We've all been blessed with varying natural abilities as far as our ears, rhythmic sense, etc. are concerned. Some have more, some less natural "talent" in various areas. For me, the rhythmic sense came very easily for whatever reason... I can easilykeep my place in a complex drum solo, for example... but in other areas I have less natural ability. Regardless of that, modre's observation is critically important. Solving your issue is really a matter of ambition and hard work. What does that mean? I have a female friend who's an awesome tenor player.... and I do mean awesome. She's 28 years old, and "only" practices 4 hours a day... and she's been doing that since she was 9 (that's 19 years of practicing 4 hours a day). That's the magnitude of what we're talking about here.

Everyone would like a "shortcut" to becoming a good improvisor.... that's why there's a huge market for "pro" saxes, mouthpieces, jazz improv books, and on and on.... while some or all of these may be useful tools, they can NEVER substitute for the incredibly hard work it takes to master your horn. How did young, often very poor black musicians become masters of their horns? I'll guarantee you it wasn't through "pro" horns, magic mouthpieces, or jazz improv videos. They often simply heard something on a record that moved them.... then they put in the effort to be able to copy what they heard on the record. After a while, the chops they developed this way led them to mastery. But if you've ever tried to duplicate what's on a recording, you know that it ain't easy... that's why they're a master and you're not. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS.

In the final analyis, you have to decide what you want out of music, and that may vary over your lifetime. It really is true tha you'll get what you put into it, and your reward will last for the rest of your life. In my case, I put in 4+ hours a day from age 12 through age 18, then went on to other things. Now, 40 years later, it has taken me a full year of incredibly hard work to get back to where I was at 18, and to begin to move ahead again. But think about, one year of hard work to recall chops from 40 years ago? Not a bad investment. So it really is an investment in your life, which only you can decide.

[frankbiff]

He's some exercises that I cam up with years ago, and started doing them again after a 20 yr break from music.

Start slow, and increse metronome speed slowly. The general idea is the same for most of the paterns. I started using the chromatic scale, then added other scales. You can use any scale or chords or any other pattern. Try to play the full range of the horn. Some may sound simple but to a beginner they may not be, also they would be easy to play reading them, but don't, do these from your head.

Start with 1/8 notes top to bottom, slured, keep at it until every other note is nailed on the metronome click.
Do it with tounging each note, then stacato, then accent every other note, sluring into the next. First accent on the beat, then off the beat.
Then play each note twice like A A Bb Bb C C etc. do the same with the accents, on and off the beat, also slur to the next note, then accent every 3 note (still playing two in a row)
Play them with swing and vary the accents.

Move on to triplets, start slow, up and down, them move to playing each note 3 times like A A A Bb Bb Bb C C C. Accent the 1st notes, then the 2 nd, then move it to the 3rd. Then accent every other note, still be carfull to play triplets. Now move to a 2 note pattern while still playing triplets like A A Bb Bb etc. Move the accent around again, 1, then 2nd then 3rd, then every other.

Now break these basic notes down, work on dotted eight with 1/16, do the same kind of things, play the doted 1/8 on the beat, then the 1/16 on the
beat, then back to back.

Now take the 1/8s in the triplet and play with them, first divide 1 into 1/16, move them as a pair from 1st to 2nd then 3rd position, keep varying accents etc while doing this. Then make one 1/8 into a doted, one into a 1/16 and keep one as an 1/8, change there positions etc. If this gives you trouble change to 6/8 time and count 6, then when you get the hang of it do it in 2. the back to 4/4

Move on to 1/16s, do the same type of things use singe, 2, 3 and 4 note patterns, accent every other, every 3rd, every 4th etc. Altenate 1/16s with 1/8. Then mix in triplets.

Then 1/16 sextuplets, you may try 3 as tiplets first, if its easyer, then mix then up with 1/8s and 1/16s

The idea like someone said above is to not think about the notes (pitch) but the ryhthm. Play in a scale you know well

Move to quintuplets, 5 notes to a beat, start with 5 on the same note (you can start any of these things like this ie 3 of the same note for triplets etc if its easyer) then 1 each on a new note, then 2-3 (stay with five even notes per beat, don't go to 2 1/16s and a 1/16 triplet!) , 1-4 etc. Don't forget to move the accents around and the slurs.

Move to 1/32ds, etc, etc.

Remeber work your way slowly, through most of this stuff, then speed things up, don't try for speed on the 1/8 untill you can play most divisions of a beat.

Don't forget doted 1/4s, on and off the beat etc.

Continue to make up some more. I usually spend about 10 min, doing somehting like this at the end of every paractice. If your sense of time is realy bad, just do this stuff for a week or 2, nothing else.

I also 2nd the worth of Violas rhythm studies book, but I see it as mainly for developing reading skills.