Holton sax history?

[Sax Magic]

Ok, according to several sites around the web, Holton made in excess of half a million saxophones in its business lifetime! Why don't we know anything about them? Somebody had to be buying these things, and we do know that not all of them were stencils.

http://www.dancipsax.com/iserial.html

If you know anything about Holton sax history, or worked at Holton, or know somebody who worked at Holton, step up and tell us something!

Can you tell that I am intrigued?:)

Sax Magic

[bruce bailey]

Some are great, others not great. I have found that they tended to have models made by them (the ones with the added C# trill and clarinet style front F) and some made by others. I had an alto that was a Courturier stencil that was like a Lyon & Healy with Martin style tone holes. What I DO know is that the serial number lists are way off. Mine was from around 1928 but the serial number came back as a 1917 horn. Go by style and features not by the numbers. The made a lot of gold plated ones and some of the gold plated sopranos are really nice. I have seen several in C.

[Keith Ridenhour]

I picked up a Holton Collegeate alto from Goodsax for a student of mine. It has a nice sweet tone, good intonation, and basically is a heck of alot easier to play than my 60s Buescher. My student will get a heck of a horn for under 200 clams. K

[Pinnman]

I had a 1930s Holton Professional once, which was anything but. My recollection is that Jason DuMars said on his web site that Holton had fallen behind the opposition well before then and were no longer attempting to sell pro saxes. They sold plenty though of whatever calibre.

I suppose that the essence of the answer is that they stopped making pro level saxes, but their 1920s instruments (and earlier) should be comparable. The Rudy Weitoft model was Holton made, of course, but i do not have any experience other than the one misfortune mentioned.

[apolaine]

I've got a lovely Holton I just bought - serial 124xxx, so I'm still trying to work out if the year really is '38 as per Dr Rick's serials or 1911 as per Dan's.

I know a few people on SOTW don't hold much store by Holtons, but there are Holtons and Holtons and this one played easily as good as a couple of Conns and Selmers I've tried - I tried a whole range from vintage to modern saxes and this came out on top. Quite a surprise, I'm very happy - maybe I just got a good one.

[DrSax]

You might think I've lost it, but just last month I purchased a C-Melody on eBay; a Holton tenor model, serial number c 21290 LP - $305.00. Only problem, the deal did not include a mouthpiece.
Tried several alto and tenor pieces but everything was a compromise, so I bought a new C Melody mouthpiece and I must tell you, it plays really well from top to bottom with just a bit of coaxing on notes below low D... probably just needs a bit of adjustment. A lot of people seem to think Conn is the one to get, but I think it depends on the vintage.
Having soprano, alto, tenor and bari in my arsenal that I use all the time, you might wonder why I'd go for this... one of the bands I play in is a traditional New Orleans / dixieland group and I think the sound of this horn is in keeping with the traditional sound and style of playing.
Anyway, I'm having a lot of fun with this beautiful instrument that I was lucky to find. Don't assume that Holton was not a good make of instrument.

[geauxsax]

Terrific info, Dr Sax--glad to hear you're enjoying your Holton C-Mel. In a recent C-mel thread, Holtons were ruled out almost immediately as options. Too bad, in my opinion. Didn't Frankie Trumbauer play a Holton? One of the most famous C-mel guys in history, and his choice of horn didn't even rate a try?

I wonder how much of Holton's negative press is simply pile-on from people who have never played one, or who tried one old out-of-adjustment beater for a few minutes, and simply validated pre-conceived notions. Now, if folks have actually played one set up well and it still sucked, then that's a good data point, I welcome it, and I thank those who have already provided such first hand info.

My tenor is set up very well, and is available to any pro/semi pro in the RI/MA area who wants to conduct a blind test shootout vs other horns--especially models from the same era roughly (late 20's). It may or may not come out on top, and it aint perfect, but at least the brand can get a fair shake. Offer stands--I'll be in the region until late June 08.

[Kritavi]

The only better quality Holton I know of is the 240 series produced as far as I know in the early 1950's. A recent example in silver sold on ebay here. The tenors I tried were good solid instruments still a notch below the bueschers, conn, kings and martins but at least in the ballpark.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Holton-Silver-Tenor-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ180225885763QQihZ008QQcategoryZ 16234QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Mope]

Read all about America's greatest band instruments here:
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=1211
A trip through the Holton Factory. Very interesting. Now I know why the pads are still good in my 68 year old horn.

[KBSaxman]

I have a Holton 240 Tenor Sax
The serial number is 145583
I got it used back in about 1965
How I can find out more information about it?

[soybean]

Read all about America's greatest band instruments here:
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=1211
I can't recommend this link more highly. It's an amazing look back into saxophone manufacturing. Although there is some self-promoting going on, there is also quite a bit of detail about everything from plating to making sax cases.

[jazzbug1]

Take a look at EBay listing #190246172326. This is an Evette-Schaeffer C melody from around 1910. You will see that Holton COPIED the hgh C to D trill key and that odd G# trill lever from this horn. I always thought these were Holton inventions, but here they are about seven years before the first Holton saxophones. Always some more useless knowlege to gain!

[soybean]

Take a look at EBay listing #190246172326. This is an Evette-Schaeffer C melody from around 1910. You will see that Holton COPIED the hgh C to D trill key and that odd G# trill lever from this horn. I always thought these were Holton inventions, but here they are about seven years before the first Holton saxophones. Always some more useless knowlege to gain!That's interesting jazzbug. I wonder if there was any cross-pollination with Holton buying parts from Evette-schaeffer?

[Pinnman]

The following link gives serial numbers from 1901: http://www.dancipsax.com/iserialholtonsax.html
I have no further information, but it does suggest that the start date of 1917 (derived from jazzbug1) is incorrect. Holton was certainly an early sax maker; 1917 looks way, way late.

On reflection: 1917 may be the date of the Rudy Wiedoft model. Holton experts may be able to confirm or correct.

[bruce bailey]

That serial number list is totaly wrong for saxes and is actually for brass instruments.

[jazzbug1]

Wiedoeft models came out in the Spring of 1928 per a company brochure in my sweaty little hands.

[jazzbug1]

I recently purchased for re-build and EBay sale a Holton C Melody, #21803. It is the first time I have come accross a front F key linked with a bar style G# key. The best of both worlds, as many players like the bigger platform of the bar vs. the pearl-covered button, which came into use afterward. This is probably is the last of the bar G#s coupled with the first front Fs. I would put it at 1927, as the first Rudys are high 25,000, which would have been assigned in late 27 or early 28. More interesting, but useless trivia from the desk of jazzbug1.

[LaPorte]

I would put it at 1927, as the first Rudys are high 25,000, which would have been assigned in late 27 or early 28.

Take into account your C-sopranosax SN#18319 shipped out 11-18-1924! The annual output between 1924 and 1926 were at top hight (ca. 3,000 - 4,000 p.a.).

Felix

[jazzbug1]

It looks like Holton saxophone sales really took off with the introduction of the Wiedoeft model, as, assuming #26000 was early 1928 and I have seen Wiedoefts as high as 36000, which I would guess would be 1930 or 31. The altos are very common, whereas the C melody, tenor, and especially the baritone, are unusual. In three years of EBay activity I have seen two tenors, two C Melodys, and one baritone vs. too many altos to count. My guess is the Wiedoefts accounted for a quarter of the altos sold. Then came the Depression and sales plummeted, Wiedoeft was by then seldom heard of, and newer players such as Jimmy Dorsey were in ads. Its surprising that Holton, King, Martin, and Buescher stayed in business. Conn was so large it could weather anything.

[soybean]

In three years of EBay activity I have seen two tenors, two C Melodys, and one baritone vs. too many altos to count. My guess is the Wiedoefts accounted for a quarter of the altos sold. Then came the Depression and sales plummeted…Interesting what you can find out by carefully watching eBay. This is good information Mr Bug. By the way, does the Wiedoeft bari have the extra "master keys" and other features, or is it a Wiedoeft in name only?

[jazzbug1]

The Wiedoeft models were different from the regular Holtons in a few ways:
1. The bell keys were put on the "coat" side, following Selmer's lead.
2. That funny little C breather key was added. They are marked "Pat. applied for"
3. A sliding cork cylinder was added to the neck, so the mouthpiece could be adjusted without sliding it up and down the cork itself.
4. The inside of the bell was gold plated. Other than my current EBay C melody (Glittercatzz) I have never seen a stock 1920s Holton with a gold bell. Holton was the last company NOT to gold plate their bells.
They retain the C/D trill and the odd little G# trill key, which they copied from Buffet. Holton made a deal with Wiedoeft to pay him for use of his name, but according to some old record notes I have, the depression arrived and they never paid him. Morgan-Stanley was bringing out a "Jazzbug1" model saxophone, but now with the bank crash, I'll never get paid. The one prototype was made into a muffler for my Studebaker.

[bruce bailey]

I am getting ready to sell my Rudy Gold Plated Alto. Any idea as to the rarity of the gold?

[geauxsax]

My 39XXX Elkhorn Tenor has a gold washed bell (for reference, pic in avatar).

[jazzbug1]

I saw an EBay listing for two weeks on a burnished gold Rudy alto. The owner watched it sit for a Buy it Now of $485.00. It didn't sell. This was in August, which is slow, so maybe you'll have better luck. The gold models are scarce, but not extremely rare. People just don't know about Holtons. I have a gold Rudy and wouldn't trade it for anything. I always get compliments on the tone and looks, and I am up against Selmer Balanced Action and Mark VI players in a big band.

[geauxsax]

I couldn't help myself. .. Gold Rudy alto on its way to me!:D

Obviously, this means I'll have to get a Holton soprano eventually!:shock:

[jazzbug1]

Congratulations! The Holton altos are the only 1920s horns I have found that can sound classic or modern, depending on the mouthpiece and playing approach. The only other alto from that era I like are the Martin Handcrafts, but most of them lack the front F. The cherished Conn is decent, but the Holton is more flexible. The Martins, with their huge bore can generate sound tsunamies, but I'll go with the Holton. If this is your first Holton alto, you'll be surprised. Put on large resonator pads! Good luck!

[bruce bailey]

The Rudy I sold to geauxsax actually plays somewhat as-is even though I stated it needs pads (which it will) and I was very surprised at how well in tune and loud it can be. I think we will be seeing a lot more Holton talk in the future.

[jazzbug1]

Holton Rudy fan is confounded! See Ebay #27028221602. Holton C melody with corkless neck. Note the photos! Serial #16251, which at the latest would be 1924, according to my previously stated factory letter. See the "Rudy" low C breather key, split bell keys, metal slide on mouthpiece/neck set-up, bar G#, and no front F. The bar G# sharp was typical at this time and the front F had not arrived yet. Also, I have seen the early attempt at the corkless neck, but that was discontinued and brought out in a different form on the Rudys. My guess is that the metal/metal seal was very prone to distortion and leakage. Bur here's the kicker: The "RUDY" low C breather key. It appears someone thought of this a few years earlier than the Rudy model and put it on a few production horns. The serial # is in the photos and it would be impossible for a repair man to add that feature, so here is evidence of a "Pre-Rudy". This is as upsetting to my theory on Rudys and is just as important to our civilization as when my friend Rutherford proved that the atom is not a solid impenetrable object.

[soybean]

Interesting… a sort of "Prototype Wiedoeft".

[geauxsax]

One of those was on ebay back in March. I posted about it possibly being a Elkhorn/Rudy tranny model. Unfortunately, I only posted the ebay link, so it's gone now.

[LaPorte]

It appears someone thought of this a few years earlier than the Rudy model

Possibly months, not years!

"From 1917 to 1927 there were no other model name than 'Revelation' except the Rudy Wiedoeft C-melody which was introduced evidently (see R.W. serial number list) in 1925, (all other R.W. were obviously introduced in 1928 as jazzbug1 stated)." from #148, 'Holton serial number registry'.

"Shure, there could be a R.Wiedoeft alto with a SN beginning with a 2 (possibly late 2x,xxx) and a R.W. C-melody beginning with a 3. That wouldn't seriously question my conclusion, which says that the R.W. C-melody was introduced significantly earlier than the rest of the Rudy Wiedoeft line. So bruce bailey could be right stating that a SN# 37xxx was made in 1928 and jazzbug1 could be right too when he claims that the R.W.model was introduced spring 1928, except the C-melody (which obviously was introduced about 3 years earlier)!" from #106, Holton SN registry.

I've added #16251 to the R.W. serial number list #104 'Holton serial number registry', page 6.


Felix

[jazzbug1]

If Rudy had an older brother, would he have been a "prototype Wiedoeft"?

[bruce bailey]

OK, what is this one! Great left side! I have seen these later horns but not that ornate.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1935-holton-saxaphone_W0QQitemZ170270851053QQihZ007QQcategoryZ 119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[soybean]

I am wondering the same thing. It's a model 203. Is this the way Holton made these? I've looked around the net for any photos of a 203. Notice the bell has a tone ring around it. Could the key guards have been installed by a previous owner? Perhaps they are home-made or from a Czech or German horn.

[LaPorte]

OK, what is this one! Great left side! I have seen these later horns but not that ornate.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1935-holton-saxaphone_W0QQitemZ170270851053QQihZ007QQcategoryZ 119030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That's the sought after 'ResoTone' with original keygards, series 204!

To be continued...

Felix

[jazzbug1]

I saw a similar alto with the interesting key guards on Ebay a few months ago. Very interesting. I wonder if the playing characteristics on Holtons changed during the 1930s or were they still the same basic late 1920s bore and sound. The Revelation model was advertised as a new horn in the late 1930s, but did it really sound different? If I see a Res-O-Tone tenor on Ebay, I'll furiously bid.

[mad-dog]

I saw a similar alto with the interesting key guards on Ebay a few months ago. Very interesting.

Probably the one I bought, if it had really lousy cell-phone quality pictures, and an "I don't know nothin' about no saxomophones" description. I took a bit of a flyer on that one - it's a heavy-handed relacquer, it's got some battle scars, and the outside roller screw tab on the low Eb is broken off. Otherwise it looks to be all there, but right now it's pretty much unplayable, and I haven't had the time to figure out why. If you guys are interested, I can take some better pictures and post them.

The horn that made a Holton-o-phile out of me is a silver 201 alto, tarnished black when I bought it, but otherwise in nearly perfect condition, just repadded, and a really fine sounding instrument even when played by a hack like -ahem- myself. I've since acquired a couple more Holtons of similar vintage, so I've got some additional data points for your serial number database when I get the time to get them to you.

Dave

[soybean]

I just made a deal to buy 2 Holton model 232 altos from Honkytone. When I get them in hand, it should add some information to the history of Holton saxophones. From looking at some printed materials, It seems that the 231 was pre-war and the 232 came out after the war, around 1946. The 232s have bell keys on the right side which the 231 does not.

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http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/myholton232.jpg
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image of 1948 Holton 232 alto.