Setup Woes....

[Chazz Jazz]

Ok, as my signature shows I play a Mk VI alto, meyer 5M, and V16 or Rico Royal 3's and an eddie daniels ligature. I am the lead alto player in my high school's jazz ensemble (big band style as well as funk/rock, etc.)

My problem is this: I cant get that "edgy" tone that I need to really cut through the band to save my soul. I have tried putting a temp. baffle which did nothing more than throwing the horn out of tune. I have tried different reeds, and different embochures which only caused the reed to freeze up and either squeal, or produce no sound at all. Currently all I can do is "blend" with the ensemble which is a big problem for solo playing.

So my question is, what else can I try/do? Any ideas of what direction I should be looking for different mouthpieces, reeds, ligatures, or even horns? My ideal would be to go for a mix of the Phil Woods warmth of tone and a David Sanborn-ish cut. I currently have a sound which, while great for combo, just doesnt cut it in ensemble playing- A mix between Grover Washington, Jr. and Gerald Albright (or so I've been told).

Thanks in Advance, oh great Sax Gods! :lol:

[Chazz Jazz]

ok, since my signature didnt show, we'll try this again...

[scale_master]

J(Ch)azz,
your setup is on the darker side, but let me ask this: is your breathing/air stream control good? Do you have a good teacher?

Also, how loud does the band play? Are there other Alto players that cut through without difficulties? I sometimes play in bands that know only ff and fff, which makes it really hard to get through as individual.

In case the above metioned is good, you should try a more open mouthpiece (like 6 or 7) and softer reeds/and or different type of mouthpiece. More open pieces tend to sound louder. Do you have a music store close to you? Playtest a few pieces there (e.g. from Meyer 6/7 to Vandoren V16 to brighter pieces like Dukoff, Runyon stuff). You will get a good impression of what suits best for you.

I used to have problems with a MKVI Alto/Meyer combo to produce the brightness in sound that I wanted. After switching to a refaced old Selmer Soloist I am perfectly happy.

B.

[Andrew]

Chazz Jazz -

I currently use a NY Meyer and I have no problems "cutting" through a band or through electronics. I strive for that Phil Woods tone as well. Have you ever heard Phil Woods in person? He is one of the LOUDEST yet most gorgeous sounding altoist I've ever heard live. It's just too amazing. I asked him how he gets such a powerful sound, and basically, it's just all air support, and how much air you push through the horn. He uses a NY Meyer 5M, and basically, he can cut through a brick wall with a spoon, however he doesn't sacrifice his tone AT ALL. It's amazing! But yeah...after he told me that it was all support, that's all I worked on. I basically played longtones on my NY Meyer for like 2-3 months straight. I played my scales using longtones. Yes, it's very boring, but the results are phenomenal! Lead trumpet players complain that I am too loud now, and it's all because I could focus my air and use so much support. I used to be in the same position as you were in. Now, if you are willing to put up the work, you can get the same results as well. Good Luck!

Andrew

[-TH]

I always felt that I can't get enough volume out of my tenor metal Link 7* . I switched to a 8* and played it for a while (couple of months). I didn't notice any improvement on volume. After I had blown my brains out with my 8* I went back to my 7*. And wow! Suddenly I could play this piece much more louder. Practicing long tones with my 8* had done this...

I have had good results playing the lead alto with my trusty Vandoren A45 (with Alexander Superial #2.5). It's not a paint peeler but no problems with volume (for me). I still prefer the Meyer sound on alto but the playability of this Vandoren mpc is _excellent_!

Tuomas

[super20dan]

i struggled for 2 years with this same problem. several mpcs worked well that i found after trying at least 20 diff ones. the ones that were close were metal yani 5 , beechler m5m and runyon custom jazz no6. i had jvw customize a beechler s4s that smokes and is ideal for big band lead work but my search really ended when i tried the runyon X.L. one couldnt ask for more in a lead mpc. does everything and with ease yet can blend and play softly and is very reed friendly.

[MM]

I suspect this is a common problem. It's difficult for 5 saxes to compete with 10 brass. The reeds tend to me mic'ed in pro bands but this is not usually the case in community and college big bands. Often the brass play too loud. Sometimes lead alto players deal with this by playing Lakeys and Dukoffs which are LOUD but also extremely edgy.

A good teacher from the Joe Allard school can help. Joe was a famous wwodwind teacher in NY. There's a video of him available, not terrific, and many of Dave Liebman's concepts in his book and video are based on Joe's teachings. These may be of some help but finding a good teacher would be better. Of course, any embouchure change may cause you to go thru a period of poor control causing squeaks as you're unlearning old habits and forming new ones.

To the folks that are playing on a NY Meyer, do you mean the new model or a vintage one? Other mouthpieces to try for more volume with a decent sound are Morgan Excalibur 6 or E, Beechler M5S or M6S, RPC, or get a Meyer refaced by Jon Van Wie. (BTWanyone know if Jon is still in the business?)

[MojoBari]

On the cheap, you can use a Powertone baffle and a Bari brand plastic reed in your Meyer. It should not through the intonation way off. Just pull out some (1/16") and use your ear.

Take in a little more mouthpiece to make sure you are not dampening the reed vibration with your lower lip too much. Try some long tones to get a really full sound.

A hand reface will help the Meyer too. But I think there are better choices for modern lead alto work, without getting into the small chamber pieces. The Runyon Custom Spoiler and the Vandoren Jumbos and Jumbo Javas are excellent and are not real pricey.

[super20dan]

sorry-ifrogot to mention lakeys .these are pretty cheap and very loud for a plastic mpc. i use one on my practice set-up for my r&b band. mojoe is also right about the vandoreens

[MM]

Mojobari has a good point on the synthetic reeds. I haven't tried the Bari (brand) but I know Fibracells can give a little more edge. They respond a bit different to embouchure pressure so try them out at home first with a tuner.

[Andrew]

My NY Meyer is a Vintage Meyer. NY USA.

[mike]

I think you've been given the correct advice: long tones to develop support. I've played a NY USA 5M Meyer for years (about 25). I have no problem generating enough volume to cut through a big band. I usually use Rico Royal 3's and I've had the same inverted Benade ligature forever.

While my preference for long tones is not to do anything to the embouchure that is different from when I'm playing, I had a teacher who recommended to drop the jaw and just open up the throat and blast away at full volume from low Bb to high F. His argument was that by dropping the jaw, one forces the corner muscles to really work. This also forces you to really support and play from the belly.

What I like to do now for a long tone exercise is more like the Marcel Moyse flute long tone: start a note a ppp and smoothly crescendo to fff over 5-6 seconds, move up a half-step (or some inteval) and decrescendo from fff to ppp over the same amount of time. Now do it again up a half-step from where you started. Try to control the embouchure at both extremes, and don't let the pitch change as your volume changes.

A lot of people seem to be able to produce a pretty good lead alto sound on Meyer's, so don't give up on it too soon. While there are plenty of other setups you can try, be advised that open, high baffle pieces don't exactly play themselves: you'll need air support and chops to control them, or you'll get a bright, edgy sound lacking any warmth.

[Razzy]

I play almost your exact setup, except different reed, and have no problems cutting through... it's all about long tones, pushing the air faster and with more pressure, as someone probably said. This opens up your sound and makes it fill the room. Practice those long tones and crescendo all with AIR, no embouchure messing around. Practicing going from ppp to fff back down to ppp very slowly has worked wonders. Not only my dynamic range but control of that range and overall FULLNESS of sound have at least doubled.

[MM]

I agree with several posting that the air support must be there but it's not sufficient to overcome a "bad" or inefficient embouchure. The reed must be free to vibrate which requires a certain amount of pressure and lip contact, not too much and not too little. It's possible to learn this by playing long tones but it's not a sure thing. A good teacher can speed up the process.

I studied with someone who learned from Joe Allard, and he could knock down the walls playing on a Vandoren A28 which is an extremely close legit piece. I'm still working out some of the concepts...maybe someday.

[jd]

all of these guys have given you good advise. i would also try a beechler bellite if you instantly want some more volume and brughtness in your sound. also the dukoff will be as bright as anyone would want. might not hurt to play with and try a few different pieces to find that extra edge. although the meyer altos are very very good mps.

[alsdiego]

After driving myself crazy with one mpc after another, and getting roughly the same sound with each one (sounds somewhat muffled, too Paul Desmondish for my taste, but very pretty), I finally realized the truth in the point made several times above.... A huge part of the sound is NOT in the mpc itself, but in the embouchure/air flow. Phil Woods is a great example... bear in mind that he started with big bands, so he probably learned to blow his brains out just to be heard over the trumpet section :) I've read that Santy Runyon learned the same thing playing in stage bands... you basically play to the guy in the second balcony.

[coolsax_ca]

I play on standard Yas-23 alto. I currently have a (about a .63 tip opening) Rosseau mouthpiece. It's great for classical and and some mellow blues, but I'm looking for something that has the capabilities of projecting a little more, still dark but with a little more edge, for more of the jazz and blues stuff only. I, too am going into a jazz band. Would a Link be sutible, a Meyer, Vandorean V16...I'm at a loss. Looking for a good Redman sound on alto, or of that sort.

[Joseph Boucher]

Chazz Jazz, The first thing to do is use the 'cheap' approach. Fish around in the old junk drawer and retrieve your old stock metal lig and dump the Rovner. Then try a #2.5 Vandoren Java or Rico Royal reed first. I'd try this before getting into the GAS game and spending the next couple years and hundreds of dollars on mpcs and assorted ligs and reeds. Your Meyer 5 is a great mpc. Look to your reeds and a lighter lig. It's you nickle. Joe

[conntenor]

Try new reeds like hemke or regular rico or vandoren.

[Roger Aldridge]

Chaz Jazz,

Just a couple of things to add to the good advice already given.....

The suggestions given about building up your breath support and chops is really important. A huge percentage of our sound comes from within us as players.

On several Forum threads I've mentioned how Ralph Morgan helped me to develop an even bigger sound with his repeated advice to take in more of the mouthpiece. This can make a big difference. If you're taking in too little mouthpiece you're in effect choking the reed. Whereas, by taking in more it allows the reed and mouthpiece to work at an optimal level. Plus, it also helps to open up more of the oral cavity. Ralph's advice is based on his experience playing in the old big bands. He described the guys in the sax section as looking like they were swallowing their mouthpieces. This helped the sax guys (using old style mouthpieces) to get enough volume and projection to hold their own with the rest of the ensemble.

Besides this, it's my feeling that two things in your set up are working against you. Please understand that this is my personal opinion. The Meyer 5M you're using is probably a current production Babbit Company Meyer. Right? As such, it's NOT the same mouthpiece as Phil Woods and many other great players have used. There are some big differences between old and new Meyers. In my experience, a Morgan 6 or 7 M (medium chamber) is closer to the old Meyers than a Babbit Company Meyer. Plus, it has Ralph Morgan's special touches. The Morgan Excalibur (E = medium chamber EL = large chamber) mentioned in a previous message is a powerful mouthpiece. I'm a big fan of the EL.

I'd also suggest that the Rovner ligature is not helping you. I've used all four kinds of Rovner ligs (Dark, Mark III, Light, ED II). They are not bad products by any means. It all depends upon what you're looking for. However, if you're wanting to maximize your volume and projection I highly recommend trying a Francois Louis ligature. There's absolutely no comparison between a FL and Rovner lig with respect to opening up your sound and bringing it to life with more resonance, color, and sparkle. Just switching to a FL lig could make a noticable difference in your sound.

Please understand that the suggestions I've made about equipment are not meant to be substitutes for developing stronger breather support and in this way getting a more powerful sound. On top of that, having a mouthpiece-ligature-reed set up that works with you -- ie, your individual tonal concept and style -- instead of working against you can make all the difference in the world.

[colibri]

You can send a current production Meyer to Ralph Morgan and ask him to restore it to the NY Meyer specs. However the rubber cannot be changed.

[Roger Aldridge]

Colibri,

Is Ralph actually doing this? I've gotten the impression that he's wanting to cut back on custom work and focus on his new lines of mouthpieces.

[sjabariiii]

Try a Morgan 6E or 7E with vandoren optimum ligature (size for clarinet.) And Alexander Superial reeds. When I played a meyer 5M I had the problem of being way too loud in my college jazz band, but with this setup I can easily be 50% louder--and also much quieter than the meyer.

-ANDYJ

[colibri]

Roger,
I received the Meyer 7M from Ralph just about a week ago. I asked him on the phone whether he takes custom work, and he didn't seem to mind it. Needless to say, the Meyer played 100% better than before the modification.

[Roger Aldridge]

Colibri,

VERY COOL! Congratulations on getting a great mouthpiece.