Took a plunge on a ratty ebay Aristocrat

[cymru97]

Well, here we go again. Some of you may recall that last year I found a ratty split-key aristocrat alto and Chu-Jerry brought it back to life for me.

Now I've picked up an even rattier split-key aristicrat tenor off of ebay!!! I picked it up for BIN and with shipping have $160 in it. This one is deplorable, but I don't think it's as bad as the ebay pics make it out to be. Some of the keys are frozen and it will take some penetrating oil quite a while to fix. The good news is eventhough the finish is shot and the keys aren't movingvery well, there doesn't seem to be any major damage at first sight. I just pulled it out of the box and will try to report back on it. One thing is certain, it needs new springs (who's got some?) and the bow guard is gone (anybody got one?).

I may be delusional, but I think it can be rescued!

I'll try and get some pics online...

[Chu-Jerry]

(Chu-Jerry changes his name, grows a beard and sneaks out of the country.)

[rabbit]

cymru97,

Congratulations, I wish you luck.

I've bungled so many rescue attempts
with other objects that by now I'd much
rather watch it than try it. Please keep us posted.

In my mind's eye I see Chu-Jerry beavering away
in a dark basement laboratory preparing for the
lightning so he can revive some ancient horn.

This is old stuff worth saving.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I rescued my 140 a couple of years ago and could sense that it was a great horn. As a result I had Jason DuMars engrave it. After that I had my tech strip the finish and put some roos in it. Great horn.

[cymru97]

Ha! Don't get too uneasy Jerry, I'll have to save my pennies for a while before this one can have a go! I think most techs cringe, shake their heads, and call me a lost cause. This one will play again! some day...

I just noticed some neck damage so it may need a patch, not sure. Still ecstatic about it though.

Hurling, did you leave the 140 in a bare finish?

Thanks for the ncouragement Rabbit!

[Hurling Frootmig]

The 140 had most of the lacquer gone but what remained gave the horn a cheetah look that I just didn't like. I had my tech chem-strip it and he lightly polished the finish (I think). It has oxidized nicely. The 140 has nice hand feel and a very sweet core to it.

[cymru97]

Well, just oiled the keys and more than I expected are beginning to loosen. Fingers are crossed! This one has some sort of patchy finish on it and some scaley stuff and other assorted scary things stuck to it so God only knows what's under there. The alto Jerry restored had been buffed in the past, but this one I'm not sure on. It's hard to pick out the engraving under layers of... stuff, but when I look closely I can see all the engraving lines including those light zip-zags. Dunno, I'll try and snaps some pics this weekend. Speaking of snaps, I think they're all there!

[Chu-Jerry]

I probably shouldn't tell you this, but I just happen to have a set of new springs.
Oh, and the bow-guard for these - not too difficult to reproduce.

(OK somebody just shoot me now)

[cymru97]

Sheesh... you're a poor influence. A very, very poor influence! I might scare you with some pictures in a couple days...

[Hurling Frootmig]

Buescher engraved these horns through the lacquer so the engraving appears to be faint when all of the lacquer goes away.

[Doc Frazier]

Don't worry Jerry, I've got your back!!!!!LOL:blob:

[cymru97]

Interesting point on the lacquer, that's what seems to be the case here. It all looks like it's there, just kinda faint.

Oh, another question. This thing came w/o a case, should I try one of those Gator GLs, or does somebody else have a better recommendation (I don't really like the zippered cases)?

[Hurling Frootmig]

I have mine is a contoured pro-tech. I would think the gator would work as well but I haven't tried it.

[saintsday]

You sir, are a VERY brave soul. I saw that horn. http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-1920s-Buescher-Aristocrat-Tenor-Saxophone-Sax_W0QQitemZ250118805350QQihZ015QQcategoryZ16234Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Jerry, I hope your passport is current. It is time to leave the country for a while.

This http://www.progearwarehouse.com/Gator-GC-TENOR-SAX?sc=7&category=949 Gator case fits my 266xx (a Chu-Jerry restored original silver beauty) very well with a lock and no zipper.

Good luck cmyru97. May the force be with you.

[cymru97]

There's a very fine line between brave and crazy...

I'll try and snap some more shots of this basement/barn/outhouse dweller today and get them posted. All keys are moving now except the A and G in the upper stack, oh, and the Low Eb and C.

I'm guessing I should really keep oiling for a few days before turning a screw driver anywhere? My biggest problem is spotting the subtle (or not so) bends and flexes that may be hidden from novice eyes. I haven't developed a plan of action on this one yet, but I'd like to disassemble and clean/polish this one myself. I'll probably swing by my tech and have him identify any major issues (ie- give him a laugh) before proceeding and laying out a plan. I'll try and post those pics because I'd appreciate forum input on this one as well!

[cymru97]

Ah! Saintsday! You made my day, I was wondering if the ABS Gator would fit spilt bell keys. I'd MUCH rather go that route than the zipper, thanks!

[Dave dix]

I would be prepared to de-solder a few posts
Dave

[super20dan]

good lord what an ugly sax! the praise rode hard and put up wet comes to mind

[Hurling Frootmig]

It looks like everything is there so I think it can be saved. I'm a sucker for reclamation projects.

[JMac]

The serial number is also in the range desired by Rascher disciples (263k-268k)- according to one of his students.

I also have trouble turning away neglected horns (much to the chagrin of my bank account :cry: ), good to know there are others with the same issue!

[Hurling Frootmig]

I'd rather see a horn restored if possible than end up as recycled brass.

[cymru97]

I was told it came from an estate in Austin and the buyer got several great pieces from as early as the 1850s. My guess is the owner was an antique/junk collector and this and the other horns he had got stuffed away in an outbuilding or something w/o cases or any protection. Of course I can only speculate on that. In just scanning over the horn I don't see any keyguards that have been resoldered or posts for that matter.

I really think it will come down to removing posts, the pivot screws look SCARY! I'll try and posts those pics as promised.

Thanks for the backing on this one! I was seriously questioning the project, but I also love old homes, old cars, old anything and if it can be rescued, it should be! I've had the pleasure of holding in my hands a ressurection (my alto ala Chu-Jerry) and the feeling is unbelievable, something that cannot be matched by going out and buying a new horn.

[saintsday]

Old is largely a state of mind.

[LBAjazz]

That horn has real potential. The key is PATIENCE as far as penetrating oil is concerned. The pivot screws and needle springs, being steel, are the biggest potential problems. Keep on adding the penetrating oil over many days. Often times it helps to apply the initial pressure on a screw in a tightening, rather than loosening , direction.It seems counter intuitive but it really works. As Gordon has described in another thread, make sure you use quality screw drivers with a fairly long shank and a really flat blade. When it comes to removing the tiny screws that hold the flat springs in place [palm keys], turning the spring [or what's left of it], instead of the actual screw, often helps loosen it. Use pliers with a really flat nose and grasp the flat spring on either side of the tiny screw head.Gently apply turning pressure back and forth, a tiny bit at a time. This has worked well for me. I have worked on many of these types of horns that other people won't touch. If I can help in any way, PM me. Good luck!

[LBAjazz]

I forgot to add, I've got an old Bundy bow guard you can have if you can't find anything better.

[cymru97]

LBAjazz, how generous, thank you very much for the offer. I will indeed PM you if I need anything and I will post to this thread as well. One of the few things I have plenty of is patience. Fortunately I do have quality small blade screwdrivers to help me along.

I ran a damp paper towel over the bell and I was pleased to see a bit of glimmer underneath. Photos coming soon... I hope.

[Pinnman]

There's a very fine line between brave and crazy... The question is, have you crossed it this time?! Do let us see the outcome, cymru, when all is complete. A fascinating hobbY!

[cymru97]

Okay, my wife's camera is great, but I'm not exactly a great photographer. I snapped a handful of random pics and posted them on shutterfly. Only problem is, while they are high-res, they don't display all that big. Guess I need to find a free place that will display them full-size.

If you see any red flags (apart from the whole thing!) let me know and I'll try to get a close-up. I'm not sure if the crack in the neck is the finish or if it goes straight through. It feels fairly substantial.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=1EbMXLNqxYsJi

[SAXISMYAXE]

Oh heck yeah. I've brought a few horns in worse condition than your Buescher candidate fully back to life. The crack may be a tricky issue (too hard to fully assess by the photos posted), but still fully restorable. Off hand, it does appear to be a crack in the actual brass, but only you will be able to fully examine the horn in that area.

Looks like you will have plenty of seized rods/screws and springs to free up. As well as some rollers that will need replacing. I wonder how far the Zinc leaching ("red rot") has progressed through the walls, especially under the G#/C#/B/Bflat key table?

The strap ring is getting a bit long in the tooth, and would probably benefit from being flipped and re-soldered.

Is it just the photographs, or does the body near the area of the upper stack appear to be a bit bent to the left?

I'd remove all the fugitive finish, and go bare brass were I you.

[cymru97]

You know, I'm not too shure about the bend in the body. My eye isn't good ebough to assess that until the horn is apart. In cleaning the horn, I've found that the neck brace was removed at one point and there is a smaller crack (or what appears to be) on the other side of the neck as well. Obviously the neck has been through something rough. Is there someone in particular I should send the neck to or is this something any competent tech should be able to remedy?

The oil is working pretty well, I've got all of the side keys off with very little effort. The main stacks are going to be monsters though. I've reapplied oil, but I'm thinking Dave's suggestion of desoldering posts may be the direction we're headed.

Still not sure on the red rot issue, I'll photograph the body once the keys are off and then figure out the best solution. There is obviously still laquer on the horn, patches of bare brass, patches of green gunk, and patches of red rot. Woowee, what fun! Overall, I'm very please with the progress though.

Thus far every pad has its snap and all but one pad have the metal backing. The backings shine like the day they were installed. No worries, I'm saving everything, pads, broken springs, everything.

Mike, I'm seriously thinking bare brass too...

[SAXISMYAXE]

All sounds as though it is going well. Removing the posts does make it easier to get many rods free, but if you are not experienced in overhauling and restoring horns, this can be a real Pandora's Box. Getting the alignment of the stack keys and the action just so when re-soldering these posts is a bit more work than many amateur techs might want to bite off.

There are many techs who are members right here on SOTW who can handle both the crack (Are there signs of a pull down? Although the direction of the crack isn't indicative of this type of damage) and the missing brace. You could try patching the crack (or filling in with solder if viable) and salvaging or fabricating a new brace, but I'm not certain what skill level you are at.

Great news about the snaps and metal backs, as these are a bear to find replacements for.

[cymru97]

Oops, I sohuld have pointed out that *I* will not be doing the posts, a tech (mine or someone here) will, same with the neck. I'd love to have it done here so I can watch, but we'll see.

The basic disassembly and cleaning is about the depth I will go then hand it over to my tech. I look forward to working on these projects in the future, but with this vintage horn I'm not about to take a chance.

[Noj the Terrible]

You are so brave! I have to take my hat off to you. This looks like a great and worthy project. I wish you good luck. From reading this thread it seems that you have all the much needed moral support that it will take to finish this great project. Best wishes.

[cymru97]

Well thanks Noj, I am plugging away at it and will be visiting my local tech tomorrow for some advice and assessment. I am very happy with what i am starting to find underneath the finish, I think this horn will be beautiful even with the pitting. More updates as they happen!