Joshua Redman and James Carter

[Mime]

A great clip I found on YouTube featuring a "battle" between with a big band playing "Straight No Chaser"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-00h49-YDE

[saxymanzach]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!

[Blackwolf42]

Thank you so much for sharing this video!!!! It is one of my favorites. I saw it a couple of years ago, but youtube seemed to have taken it off the site.

[dirty]

Wow. That would have been so fun to witness live. And how good did each of them sound in his opening solo? Wow.

[bfoster64]

These guys are great, but Carter's time seemed a little off at first, like he handed fully warmed up to the rhythm section. I think the stuff at the end is the best, where they both get to do whatever they want and play together as a duet.


Carter is on a Lawton and Redman on an Otto Link STM, yes? Interesting how their basic tones are very different but they're both able to summon a huge range of sounds out of their instruments.

Redman is on an SBA but what the heck kind of horn is Carter playing? It looks like an old vintage American horn but is that an underslung octave key?

[Grumpie]

Redman is on an SBA but what the heck kind of horn is Carter playing? It looks like an old vintage American horn but is that an underslung octave key?

It's a Conn and it is fitted with Yanagisawa keywork. Check the clip at about 1 minute, you can see the left pinky cluster and it's also modern. The founder of the Dutch Saxforum played this horn when it was for sale in Amsterdam last october. I don't know if it's still there. I'll try and ask him as he frequently visits the shop.

[HeavyWeather77]

...hmmm....

Both these guys are good players, and I really love Josh Redman a lot of the time, but I guess this context just doesn't really do it for me. It was probably fun, though.

[smallvillesax]

I have this DVD. Its called "Eastwood After Hours". Its pretty good. Carter and Redman both do a couple more tunes as does James Moody, Charles McPherson, Kenny Barron and some others. Its weird though, because througout the whole thing they cut away from the music and put little clips of Clint Eastwood's films in there. That part is really lame.

[JL]

I can't get the clip to play. It asks for me to agree to something, I agreed, pasted the clip, and it wouldn't play.

[Grumpie]

I can't get the clip to play. It asks for me to agree to something, I agreed, pasted the clip, and it wouldn't play.

This should do the trick JL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-00h49-YDE

[dirty]

Redman is on an SBA but what the heck kind of horn is Carter playing? It looks like an old vintage American horn but is that an underslung octave key?
I read somewhere about James Carter paying lots of money (several thousand, maybe even 10+) for his horn. Apparently, somebody took the body of one of the old American horns and then put modern keywork onto it. I think there was more to it than that, but that was the basic idea. I don't know if that's what he was playing in that clip, though.

[edhara]

...hmmm....

Both these guys are good players, and I really love Josh Redman a lot of the time, but I guess this context just doesn't really do it for me. It was probably fun, though.
I'm in agreement with you on this. Individually, I think these guys are phenomenal, no question. But I've never, ever gotten into the dual sax/cacophony thing on any recording.

[hakukani]

I just did not see this as a cutting contest. I thought that there was some intense trading of lines in these solos.

It got a bit much toward the end... Just like a lot of big band features.

I once ran sound for a jazz festival college big band marathon. It started at 8:30am with community college big bands, and ended with the UNT 2 o'clock. 27 big bands in one day.

What was in common with their 20 minute sets? Start off with a fast, cooking tune, with a couple of hot solos. Next a ballad to feature the sax/bone/tpt/guitar etc. Finish with a screamer that usually featured a drum solo.

I guess it's just the nature of the beast, unless you're playing a granny grabber (AKA 'over 25' dance) or some such gig---and even these are getting few and far between.

[Dan Molloy]

Best bit was during one of Redman's stints when Carter mimes along with Redmans solo ;)
It's the shot from in front of the MD looking back onto Carter.
Very convincing.:D

[10mfan]

Man, when Jug and Stitt use to do the battle thing, Stitt use to get his *** handed to him. When you hear Sonny without another horn, he's usually killin;...but the 2 horn thing with Jug just didnt make Stitt look so hot.

I get that vibe here...I dig Carters playing much more than Redmans, and he has far greater energy and much more core and depth to his sound.
The one thing I like is that they dont try to step on each others feet...I find the playing respectful, where they both play with great consideration towards one another.....a sign of maturity.


I remeber seeing Bill Pierce and James Moody battle it out on stage, and both were very respectful and cautious not to outdo the other man. There's alot of respect amongst better players, and it was nice to see it here with Josh and James.

James is a good friend of mine, so it was nice to see him playing so well!

[sheski]

Somehow I find it hard to believe ANYBODY opened a can on Stitt....

[10mfan]

Check Out The Recordings....

[altoist]

Check Out The Recordings....

What are "The Recordings" in caps? Boss Tenors? Boss Tenors in Orbit?
We'll be together again?

I have a number of recordings of Stitt and Ammons, some from the studio, and some live, and I don't recall Stitt getting his *** handed to him on any
of those recordings. So I'm with sheski on that one. Sure, he had his bag,
and if you don't like it you don't like it, but even when Stitt was phoning in
a performance he seems awesome. On some later stuff I had, he seemed
drunk, and less than his usual self, but far better than most mere mortals.

To be fair, I kind of think that Stitt is a bit less combative with Ammons, than
he was with Rollins on that set with Dizzy Gillespie. And I think Stitt takes
that set too. But with Ammons, it's not just a battle. Something more.

I'd really enjoy a Dexter Gordon/Sonny Stitt tenor match up. Anyone know of
an available recording?

[HeavyWeather77]

I'm generally in the Rollins camp on the Diz album. I guess I'd be in the Redman camp on this clip, if I were to take sides, and that's always fun.

Dr. John Murphy at UNT played a clip of Ammons and Stitt dueling from one of those records, and he prefaced it referring to Stitt "carving" Ammons on rhythm changes (or Cherokee, can't remember now). As I recall, Stitt sounded a lot better to me.

It's not like music isn't subjective or anything. Wait, what?

[LiAm84]

YES!! Ive got a recording of Dexter playing with Stitt from the complete blue note dexter gordon recordings. Its interesting to hear the tone differences between them both considering their sounds are both derived from Lester Young. Stitt sounds very much in the Young vien where as Dexter has got his own thing going on. There both in my top favorite tenors list!

Just a quick question on the topic of Favorite tenors: has any one seen any video footage of hank mobley? Im allways searching on youtube but have never come across any??

[altoist]

Indeed, music is subjective, so barring a knockout, it's a judges' decision.
To be clear, I don't think Stitt blew Ammons out of the water, or Rollins
on that Dizzy date. I like Gene Ammons playing a lot, with and without
Stitt.

I like your taste in tenor LiAm84, I'm a big fan of Hank Mobley myself. I think
he gets shafted because Miles Davis disses him, but to me he outdoes Miles
in quite a few places on that Live at The Blackhawk set. Especially for his
earlier playing, he is one of my favorites, and if I ever get a chance to play
more tenor, he is going to be one of the players who's solos I'll transcribe.

[HeavyWeather77]

Indeed, music is subjective, so barring a knockout, it's a judges' decision.
To be clear, I don't think Stitt blew Ammons out of the water, or Rollins
on that Dizzy date. I like Gene Ammons playing a lot, with and without
Stitt.

I like your taste in tenor LiAm84, I'm a big fan of Hank Mobley myself. I think
he gets shafted because Miles Davis disses him, but to me he outdoes Miles
in quite a few places on that Live at The Blackhawk set. Especially for his
earlier playing, he is one of my favorites, and if I ever get a chance to play
more tenor, he is going to be one of the players who's solos I'll transcribe.

Good idea. I might check out some Hank this summer too, I always loved him and never listened to him all that much. Maybe learning a solo or two is in order. Some of the best straight-ahead playing there ever was, and what a great sound.

[JL]

Man, when Jug and Stitt use to do the battle thing, Stitt use to get his *** handed to him. When you hear Sonny without another horn, he's usually killin;...but the 2 horn thing with Jug just didnt make Stitt look so hot.

Of course it's all subjective, but I'll still respond NO WAY in a million years! Sonny Stitt & Gene Ammons were both fabulous, solo or together. They had different, but complementary styles. Neither outdid the other and their "battles" were fantastic.

[JL]

This should do the trick JL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-00h49-YDE


Hey thanks! That clip is absolutely spectacular.

[brasscane]

...but what the heck kind of horn is Carter playing? It looks like an old vintage American horn but is that an underslung octave key?

Looks like a 30M neck without the support bar on a Chu tenor.

On the other topic of the thread, comparison of players in a session; in Ashley Kahn's book "A Love Supreme" there is mentioning of Coltrane playing with Rollins and coming away intimidated (this was before his Miles days). Seems absurd now to compare them; as does Carter and Redman. Taking that into account, it is an amazing clip, and it is a tribute to both players how well this "experiment" unfolds in spite of their completely different styles and personalities. Thanks for posting it.

[LiAm84]

I dont think Carter's horn is a conn at all. Its gotta be some sort of custom built thing!

Redman is playing his SBA tenor but using (I guess??) his old metal link on it? This seems odd to me because Redman has been using hard rubber links for quite some time now... since before he started using his SBA i.e. the Timeless Tales album where he played an old radio improved and rubber link. before that he had used radio improved and metal link also BA and metal link and mark 6 and metal link.

Maybe he switched back to his metal link for this gig with james carter because he though he might need a little extra power that the metal link could give him over the hard rubber?? Oh dear... what a jazz saxophone geek I am to be thinking through things like this!!!!

[Grumpie]

......but what the heck kind of horn is Carter playing? It looks like an old vintage American horn but is that an underslung octave key?

I had a short conversation over the phone today with one of the guys at Amsterdam Winds and he confirmed about Carters horn being a Conn with modern keywork. It seems there were 5 of these made in Switzerland. One of these was in their shop on consignment but the original owner apparently decided to keep it. I've asked if there were some pics available and they told they would look for some and send them to me with a litlle story of what they know about these horns. As soon as I get the info I will post it here.

In the meantime I started some googling and eventually found a little bit more info (not much) about this horn........and ofcourse even the search function here would have found that because it was posted here (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22667)

[fieldmarshall]

Wow! As much as I enjoyed watching/listening to this, I don't think I'd put it on the best ever list, by any stretch. They were both terrific, and several times they clearly showed they were thoroughly enjoying playing off each other. I think that's what I enjoyed the most about it; it was fun. That's the first time I've heard James Carter, but I've been a fan of Joshua Redman for quite a while. Guess I've gotta get a Carter CD or two now.

[themacintrasher]

I thought carter beat the crap out of redman