Dolnet Scepticism Thread

[sax-ony]

I got into collecting vintage saxophones a few years ago, and I've had some fun, found some keepers, and gained some technical and musical insight (though still a lot less than many people around SOTW!).

I've tried lots of models - tenor and alto - and had several overhauled by good repairers. (Conn, Martin, Buescher, SML, Couesnon, Beaugnier, Pierret, Huller, Keilwerth, Dolnet.) Some have been wonderful, some not my thing, but all have had something that made me see why someone would like them - all except the Dolnets.

This isn't meant to rain on anyone's parade. (Uwe Steinmetz sold me my Couesnon alto on Ebay and included some of his excellent CDs in the sale - I particularly recommend his work with the Fitzwilliam String Quartet.) But I just don't get it. I have since sold my Bel Air tenor and traded my Bel Air alto - and in neither transaction did I make any claims for the tone, voice or whatever of the instrument, because I couldn't think what to say.

Intonation wasn't bad for a vintage instrument and the tenor undoubtedly had a "big" sound, but my regular repairer - who has done great things with a range of saxes for me - just had to admit defeat - nothing he could do would make it sing. (And the left-hand pinky table was a nightmare for someone with shortish fingers!) The alto was more comfortable to play and had a better sound, but it was nothing like as good as my SML, Beaugnier or Pierret (or Uwe's Couesnon, in my view). Both tenor and alto had exceptionally large bores and bells, but this didn't seem to give them a distinctive character like the Keilwerths, it just demanded a lot of air.

Another UK repairer and dealer, who did excellent work on a very early Keilwerth tenor for me, had a Dolnet tenor in his shop, with a very cheap price tag. When I expressed an interest, he seemed surprized and said "I don't rate them, myself".

So this is a thread for other people who have had genuine experience of Dolnets and don't rate them either. Personally, I relied too heavily on the positive comments on the Saxpics site, and there is a tendency for SOTW to make every vintage horn sound wonderful, as we all try to persuade ourselves we that we made great purchases and that values can only go up. But I think a bit of balance is needed for the sake of those looking to buy: some vintage horns really aren't that great and I think the Dolnet is one of these.

[saintsday]

I agree, even though I would have bought Uwe's Gold Dolnet just for the collector value.
I tried 2 Dolnet tenors at Junkdude's last year and was very unimpressed. I like the offbeat look of the horns and the original red pads are killer, so based on reading here and saxpics I wanted to like them. I know they have some avid fans, but based on that experience and abadcliche's comedy of errors on the HP horn, Dolnet has fallen strongly into "buy only after a try and tuner" for me.

[bfoster64]

I was the first guy that purchased Abadcliche's HP Dolnet tenor and I was very disappointed. Not only did it play out of tune but the response was not very smooth, free, or even and overall the horn paled in comparison to my Buffet SDA and B&S Allora tenors. I had written Dolnets off, in spite of my admiration for vintage French saxophones.

But I later got to play a Dolnet bari and was so impressed that I traded a Keilwerth Royalist tenor for it. I haven't tried the alto so I can't comment on that, but I recently played a Big B and a Weltklang bari as well as a Yamaha-B52 and I was pretty impressed with how the Dolnet bari stacked up. It is a fun horn to play, and you can hear a recent recording of it here:

http://www.myspace.com/miraclegrowportland

Choose track 4, Mr. Charlie.

For the last bit I switched to my Buffet SDA alto with a DV 8 mpc and Hemke 3 reed

On the Dolnet I am playing a modern Tone Edge and a Fibracell 2.5.

(I provide all this information because I think it's valuable to hear how a player matches his equipment to his tone, and I've learned a lot about that on this Forum.)

Feel free to say so if you think the sound sucks, but from this player's perspective the Dolnet bari has quite a free-blowing response, a big centered sound, and a phat low end.

And keep in mind that I just started playing bari a couple months ago.

[sax-ony]

Thanks for taking the touble to post the link to your recordings: after just a couple of months on bari, that sounds pretty good to me! Perhaps Dolnet just had particularly inconsistent manufacturing quality (in which case saintsday's advice about a try and a tuner is especially important). Clearly some people have found good ones (for them) but I wonder if they are the exceptions to the general trend.

[stitch]

Another UK repairer and dealer, who did excellent work on a very early Keilwerth tenor for me, had a Dolnet tenor in his shop, with a very cheap price tag.

I just have to ask - how much and where? :D

[sax-ony]

Under £300.00, I think. Lincoln. It was a couple of years ago, so unless he tells everyone he doesn't rate it, I suppose it must be sold by now!

[stitch]

Under £300.00, I think. Lincoln. It was a couple of years ago, so unless he tells everyone he doesn't rate it, I suppose it must be sold by now!

Just as well, really ;)

[bfoster64]

Well, I keep reading posts from folks in Europe who have more exposure to Dolnets than we do in the States, and they often say the baris and basses are somewhat revered.

At the same time, in spite of some of the glowing reviews of Dolnet altos and tenors, their market value remains fairly modest on Ebay and elsewhere. I always think of them as a step down from Buffets and the better vintage Keilwerths, which tend to run in the $1000-2000 range.

I haven't played a Couesnon, but they seem to hold a similar market value to Dolnets. That's why it is interesting to hear the opinion that the Couesnon tenor is much better than the Dolnet. But how much of this is just common sense--i.e., play a horn with a tuner before you buy it?

Although I haven't heard of any Couesnon or Noblet high pitch horns, it seems likely that some of the examples of these lesser vintage French brands are stuffy out-of-tune dogs that can't hold a candle. I've even spoken with some people who owned Buffet DAs and SDAs that had major un-fixable problems, but my SDA is the bees knees.

Predictions that Dolnets will be worth over $2000 in the near future seem unrealistic, but that isn't to say there are good Dolnets out there well worth their modest asking price, especially some of those nice looking gold-plated or Royal Jazz examples.

[saintsday]

Although I haven't heard of any Couesnon or Noblet high pitch horns, it seems likely that some of the examples of these lesser vintage French brands are stuffy out-of-tune dogs that can't hold a candle.

I can't speak about the Noblets, I've only had a couple altos, but I've owned about 20 Couesnons, sop, alto and tenor, and every one plays/played nicely in tune with a clear voice. There is nothing lesser about them except the price.

[mike_s]

i think USA horn has a dolnet tenor on their site for about 2500. generally they seem a bit overpriced on the vintage horns judging by the 4500.00 beat up super tenor.

[Pete Thomas]

The only Dolnet I tried was amaong the best tenors I've ever blown. A beautiful resonant sound that had eveyrthing you might want from low B to altissimo. Unfortunately it belonged to someone else.

Sorry, I think the thread was only for people who don't like the Dolnet, but I couldn't resist. (The Dolnet in question was at Stephen Howard's workshop and he too rated it very highly)

[saintsday]

The only Dolnet I tried was amaong the best tenors I've ever blown. A beautiful resonant sound that had eveyrthing you might want from low B to altissimo. Unfortunately it belonged to someone else.

Sorry, I think the thread was only for people who don't like the Dolnet, but I couldn't resist. (The Dolnet in question was at Stephen Howard's workshop and he too rated it very highly)

Thanks for chiming in. I'm a big fan of as many points of view and direct experience reports as possible.
Sax-ony makes a good point when he says, "there is a tendency for SOTW to make every vintage horn sound wonderful." I agree. If there is variation among professionally set up new top line instruments, the range on vintage horns just has to be even greater. I find a little dose of reality about the old horns that so many of us love to be entirely appropriate.

[Pete Thomas]

I'd like to add that this one was about 4 weeks ago. I approached it with what I think is healthy scepticism as I had no prior knowledge of Dolnets. I'd heard of the make but was not aware that it had any kind of reputation at all. I just liked this horn when I blew it.

[SAXISMYAXE]

Dolnets certainly worked well for one of the greatist Tenor Giants of all time, Don Byas. ;) I like mine quite a bit, but it isn't my main axe on tenor.

[Meyer]

My first Dolnet was a Bel Air Baritone, and I have never played a baritone that was so good and powerfull in the upper register. I later bought a Buescher Big-B and a Martin baritone, but the Dolnet is far the best I have ever tried.

Meyer

[spiderjames]

Perhaps Dolnet just had particularly inconsistent manufacturing quality (in which case saintsday's advice about a try and a tuner is especially important). Clearly some people have found good ones (for them) but I wonder if they are the exceptions to the general trend.

I have a limited experience with Dolnets but the four horns that I have had in my possession have had some inconsistencies in the QC department. Things soldered on crooked, stuff like that. Looked like it was that way from the factory and not botched repairs. Most things that mattered could be easily corrected.

It seems to me that Dolnets are some of the quirkier of the vintage saxes, but they definitely have something going on in the mojo department. I think if you had a couple of good ones and commited yourself to them the results would be excellent. Like taming a wild beast.

Dolnets are not your typical french sounding saxophone. They compare more favorably to vintage American horns like Conns or Zephyrs. if you look on other threads, the complaints that you read about concerning Dolnets are similar to the ones you read about when someone moves from a Selmer to an old Conn or Zephyr. They take some getting useed to. the tone and pitch are not as centered or locked in as a Selmer or a Keilwerth. More uncontrollable. but perhaps ultimately more expressive.

I would be interested to know this. Those of you that did not like the Dolnets, what horn were you coming from or used to when you tried it.

[saintsday]

I would be interested to know this. Those of you that did not like the Dolnets, what horn were you coming from or used to when you tried it.

I tried tenors and was coming from a Buescher New Aristocrat. The guy I went to Junkdude's with had his VI tenor with him. He wasn't much impressed either. I ended up buying a Leblanc system tenor that impressed us both.

[abadcliche]

I've played about 5 or 6 Dolnets now.

Quirky or spotty seems to be the right word. I am also a bit gun-shy of ebay Dolnets after the HP debacle, which was the lowest point in my saxophonic career thus far [knock on wood].

Uwe's gp alto is now mine, and I will soon know more- should arrive next week. Alto is my main axe, and this horn was bought with the idea that it would compete with my '38 Keilwerth "King Modell 3" (same body tube as a New King) for top billing.

Nonetheless, as you can see by my still laying down the bread to get Uwe's Dolnet, I still have faith in them. Spotty, quirky, sometimes in HP, but when one of them is a good one, they really are amazing horns.

[bfoster64]

Based on my limited experience, like Conn, yes; Zephyr, no. A big bore sound from top to bottom. Very Conn-esque.

I also agree the intonation is very flexible. On my bari, for instance, I have it dialed in so that I need to completely relax in the low octave, then voice everything slightly up from D2 to C3--but it is really easy to do so! When I go low I just open my throat to match the big bore. When I want to go high and center the pitch I blow a narrower air stream starting in the throat. The sound responds as though the bore suddenly narrowed. It is incredibly flexible in that regard--more so than any bari or tenor I've played, though the Conns come close. And when I soften my throat, the tone takes a 180-degree turn and the edge disappears, replaced with a lush warm sound. It is very responsive.

However, it does not play well with any of the high or even medium-baffled bari pieces I have tried. The intonation goes haywire and it sounds like a chain-saw. But with the balls on this baby, I don't need a baffle. The thing roars with my Otto Link Tone Edge and STM.


I have a limited experience with Dolnets but the four horns that I have had in my possession have had some inconsistencies in the QC department. Things soldered on crooked, stuff like that. Looked like it was that way from the factory and not botched repairs. Most things that mattered could be easily corrected.

It seems to me that Dolnets are some of the quirkier of the vintage saxes, but they definitely have something going on in the mojo department. I think if you had a couple of good ones and commited yourself to them the results would be excellent. Like taming a wild beast.

Dolnets are not your typical french sounding saxophone. They compare more favorably to vintage American horns like Conns or Zephyrs. if you look on other threads, the complaints that you read about concerning Dolnets are similar to the ones you read about when someone moves from a Selmer to an old Conn or Zephyr. They take some getting useed to. the tone and pitch are not as centered or locked in as a Selmer or a Keilwerth. More uncontrollable. but perhaps ultimately more expressive.

I would be interested to know this. Those of you that did not like the Dolnets, what horn were you coming from or used to when you tried it.

[sax-ony]

I think the thread was only for people who don't like the Dolnet

Not really - just for people who've tried them and need a place to comment which has a different emphasis from Uwe's "Dolnet appreciation thread".


The Dolnet in question was at Stephen Howard's workshop and he too rated it very highly

Dolnet owners must hope Stephen Howard reviews it when he happens to have a MKVI on his bench for a playing comparison - as he did with a Pierret Competition alto I sold a few months ago!

[Sjax20]

About 3 month ago I took the risk to buy a Dolnet tenor (low pitch BelAir from the fifties, I guess) that was barely playable and needed a complete overhaul. I invested the money and I did not regret it, although I changed my mind a couple of times.
It has a nice, sweet, resonant sound. As compared to my main tenor, a King Super 20, it's less 'extrovert'. And I did't really like the keywork. The first time I took it to a session, I was a bit dissappointed. I concluded that the Dolnet is nice to play it at home, suited for ballads, but no replacement for my King.
But later I changed my mind again, after some more experimenting with mouthpieces and reeds, and I became less sceptical. Last week a friend of mine tried the horn, and he was quite impressed by the big sound. And so was I (it was the first time I heard someone playing it).
Today I tried a new mouthpiece (a Berg Larsen HR) on the Dolnet, with good results: a fuller, bigger sound, less sweet, good intonation (actually better than the King, which is a bit hard to control, especially with that Berg mpc). I never tried the other French vintage saxes, so I can't compare. But when I compare it to my King, I can't say the sound is radically different, especially with this BL mouthpiece.
So I'm not gonna sell my Dolnet ... for the time being :)

[onkelfudd]

Hi everybody!
I also own a Dolnet "Bel Air" Tenor. I like the keys and for my hands (got bigger ones) it's a very nice feeling. My main horn is a The Martin Tenor - and soundwise not beatable, but ergonomically not as nice as the Dolnet.
I also had some trouble to get a good sound out of the horn in the beginning (I repadded it by myself and finally did a good job) but after a while experimenting with mpcs, I found out that especially Lawtons, metal Links and a RPC work best with it. Big sound and good intonation with a french made keywork!!!
Peace & Love

[spiderjames]

(actually better than the King, which is a bit hard to control, especially with that Berg mpc).

That's the comment I was referring to when I compared them to Kings. Seem like when the move is from a smaller bore horn to a King or Conn you hear more complaints about intonation and control than if the move is from, say a Conn to a King. Likewise a move from a Conn or King to a Dolnet may be a more lateral move. I not even sure if a Zephyr or Super20 is considered large bore or not but they seem to have the heart and soul of one.

The Dolnet (Bel-Air) keywork felt a bit weird at first. Seem to put the right hand in an odd position, but after a while it felt fine and switching back to my Conn felt odd. All in what you get used to.

[Sjax20]

Spiderjames - I also think that the Super20 is usually considered a big bore horn. But actually I can't find a big difference between the King and Dolnet. I tried to measure the tube diameter at various places. The difference are subtle, although the Dolnet seems a bit wider at the upper part of the tube, and narrower at the lower part (around the low B/Bs keys). (A bigger diffence between these horns is the shape of the bow: the Dolnet bow makes a sharper turn, as compared to the King. That difference is big, I can imagine that the bow shape has a bigger effect on the sound than the subtle difference in taper size).

So it's still a bit unclear to me were to put the Dolnet on the big bore / small bore continuum. Is a Dolnet more like a Selmer Mark VI, or more like a King Super 20?

[spiderjames]

I"m saying its more like a Super 20 or a Conn than a Selmer and I am speculating that if you like a Conn or a King and are coming from that horn you are more likely to like a Dolnet because it is similar in spirit to those horns and it would not seem as off or as uncontrollable.

[Meyer]

As some might recall, I bought a Dolnet HP Tenor saxophone, just to add it to my collection. It arrived today, yes it is smaller than a tenor, but only about 10 - 15 mm. It is no way as small as an American C-melody. Played it against a tuner, it is inside the 10 +/- cent from C3 down to G#. It is leaking badly in the low end, I have the chromatic F# under suspecion, for causing problems. I have not had the time to pull a light through, to see the leaks, but will do that later this week.

My tuner was set at 442 Hz, and I was not looking at the tuner, my wife did, (Otherwise you will intonate up to the pitch you want, without thinking about it)

I´m am quite pleased with it, it is very beautifully engraved and maintained, some soldering could have been done better, but € 129,- that is okay!!

Some might be sceptic, I am not..........for what I got.......

[Uwe Steinmetz]

Hi to everyone,

thanks for this thread. Since I have tried during the last year different Dolnet altos I can absolutely underline that their building quality is inconsistent - maybe more inconsistent than other handcrafted saxophones; the best one I played was my gold plated alto and the soprano that I still own. Because of the way they are built (with large bore etc) they might be not everyone´s taste and certainly differ from Selmer / Yamaha / Yanagisawa produced horns.

Uwe.

[RootyTootoot]

I have a Dolnet "Bel Air" alto. It's a good horn, a pretty horn but I don't think the intonation matches a good Conn or Buescher. The sound, I find, is roughly comparable to the older American saxes. The keywork is quite easy to get used to and certainly quicker than eg a Buescher TT or Chu Berry. I have found that the intonation is quite "flexible", however. You have to be on your toes in that department. I get the best results with a v "vintage" type large chamber m/p with which I can play in jazz styles and at least demonstrate classical styles with some degree of conviction. I can't see Dolnets ever becoming collectible in the sense that, say, a "the Martin" or a Buescher "Top Hat" is, unless mine is totally unrepresentative. It's an interesting horn though. One for the eccentrics, maybe.