Boycott Bach

[BarrySachs]

No, not Johann Sabastian Bach, but Vincent Bach trumpets and other brass instruments.

Here's why:
http://www.local802afm.org/frames/fs_article.cfm?xEntry=84654621

[Rackety Sax]

No, not Johann Sabastian Bach, but Vincent Bach trumpets and other brass instruments.

Here's why:
http://www.local802afm.org/frames/fs_article.cfm?xEntry=84654621
So maybe that explains how they plan to build a new saxophone in the U.S. - bust the union first, then they can "afford" to do it.

[FatCatGuitar]

Everyone needs to boycott the entire Steinway line of instruments. These guys have screwed the American worker. It's nice to know when you buy an American made instrument it has hundreds of years of experience behind it.

[NissanMarkVII]

The American worker hasn't helped either. The UAW is perhaps one the most powerful unions in the Nation. The world is realizing they have served past their purpose.

I'm not on Steinway's side either. I just think the Unions have done thier job, placing laws on the books that, for the most parts, have worked, and brought the Nation's wages up.

Every major world power has been built on slavery and tiny wages. It's no different today.

From Europe in the 19th Century, America in the 20th Century, now Aisa in the 21st Century. And long before all that, the Mayans, Incans, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians. List goes on and on!

Pardigm shifts sucks when you're on the receving end, but that's life :( .
And this coming from a guy that has worked for a few tyrants, but realizes it would be much worse if the Unions haven't done what they did.

Disclaimer: I know I'm tossing myself to the wolves here, and my debate skills suck, so interpret this as you may. Playing "Devils Advocate" if you will.

[JB4sax]

No, not Johann Sabastian Bach, but Vincent Bach trumpets and other brass instruments.

Here's why:
http://www.local802afm.org/frames/fs_article.cfm?xEntry=84654621

Since the link above points to a story from April 2007, check out this link for more current information:

http://www.connselmerstrike.com/

[Stretch]

The American worker hasn't helped either. The UAW is perhaps one the most powerful unions in the Nation. The world is realizing they have served past their purpose.

The UAW and CAW are not responsible for the demise of the American auto industry. Decidely poor, inept management is, though workers are taking brunt of the blame. The unions recently gave up huge concessions that are a paltry savings for GM and Chrysler when considering the size of the corporate bailout money given by Washington, Ottawa, and the Ontario provincial government.

[gary]

It's just the same old story. Mega corporations eat up the smaller businesses with only one goal in mind, to line the purses of those on the top. The product in some regard is irrelevant. As long as companies can move their productions overseas almost at will and undermine and alienate the American worker from the company profits, it will continue. This is a well worn path. Evidently the American people prefer this kind of economic barbarism as opposed to strong worker-protective laws and unions. What goes around will surely come around.

[Hurling Frootmig]

Conn-Selmer could reclaim some respect in the sax community if they could ever actually make another professional horn. Without skilled workers I do not see that happening.

[FatCatGuitar]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I haven't been playing much sax since 70's high school and now I'm shopping for a sax for my daughter. My question is, if anyone knows for sure, are there any saxophones still made in the USA?

I've seen a Conn 25M listed on Ebay that states it was made in the USA. Not sure if that's N.O.S. or a B.S.

[harmonizerNJ]

..... now I'm shopping for a sax for my daughter. My question is, if anyone knows for sure, are there any saxophones still made in the USA?.......

I am not 100% sure, but as far as I know there are no saxophones manufactured in the USA. Some new saxes have on them a corporate logo which includes a USA location, but this merely indicates a corporate location, not where the horn was manufactured.

I suggest that you open a new thread with a title something like "shopping in Dallas for a sax for my kid", because people who feel they have advice to offer on your question might not even open this thread, for various reasons.

[Stocker]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I haven't been playing much sax since 70's high school and now I'm shopping for a sax for my daughter. My question is, if anyone knows for sure, are there any saxophones still made in the USA?


Conn-$elmer closed the Nogales plant in 2004, and the former Buescher plant where the Selmer USA horns were made is also closed.

There hasn't been a saxophone made in this country since and there most likely never will be again.

I can't say with 100% certainty but I've looked and found nothing.

(The 25M you found on eBay is probably used or NOS.)

[FatCatGuitar]

Thank you for you information and I am really sadly surprised. It's all too very sad, no more American made saxes...I mean come on, how hard is it to build something that has been around for 100+ years and make money on it. Maybe I'll switch her to an instrument that is made in the USA. She is a germ-a-phobe and doesn't want a used one and I really don't want to buy a foreign made anything these days.

[harmonizerNJ]

A new sax is more likely to have germs collected from while being handled in the store, than from its place of manufacture.

[Stocker]

True.

Packing materials are a different story. Emerald ash borer, anyone? :(

It's all too very sad, no more American made saxes...I mean come on, how hard is it to build something that has been around for 100+ years and make money on it.
The saxophone is rather expensive to produce... for the list price of a new YTS-23 you can get a made-to-order pro trumpet patterned after the Martin Committee from a little shop in Tennessee.

Combine that with how popular the saxophone is and the need for high production volumes (read: less attention to detail) and low prices, and companies like Conn-$elmer decide it isn't "profitable."

[LampLight]

..... now I'm shopping for a sax for my daughter. My question is, if anyone knows for sure, are there any saxophones still made in the USA?.......

I am not 100% sure, but as far as I know there are no saxophones manufactured in the USA. Some new saxes have on them a corporate logo which includes a USA location, but this merely indicates a corporate location, not where the horn was manufactured.

I suggest that you open a new thread with a title something like "shopping in Dallas for a sax for my kid", because people who feel they have advice to offer on your question might not even open this thread, for various reasons.

My admittedly imperfect memory recalls a thread where people were discussing a requirement to either stamp "Made in XXX" on imported horns or otherwise label them that way. I couldn't find the thread with the search function. Does anyone else remember it?



"It isn't so astonishing, the number of things that I can remember, as the number of things I can remember that aren't so." Mark Twain

[barchdan]

[QUOTE=FatCatGuitar;1167447]..... now I'm shopping for a sax for my daughter. My question is, if anyone knows for sure, are there any saxophones still made in the USA?.......

I am not 100% sure, but as far as I know there are no saxophones manufactured in the USA. Some new saxes have on them a corporate logo which includes a USA location, but this merely indicates a corporate location, not where the horn was manufactured.

I suggest that you open a new thread with a title something like "shopping in Dallas for a sax for my kid", because people who feel they have advice to offer on your question might not even open this thread, for various reasons.

My admittedly imperfect memory recalls a thread where people were discussing a requirement to either stamp "Made in XXX" on imported horns or otherwise label them that way. I couldn't find the thread with the search function. Does anyone else remember it?

[QUOTE]

While this is from a Goodson bashing thread on usenet, it does present some facts...

Newsgroups: alt.music.saxophone
From: jbt...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:28:05 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sat, Apr 19 2008 2:28 pm
Subject: Re: The Law Is Clear Imported Saxes Must Be Marked
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
Just an update on this topic. Here is a summarization of some
additional information that I have gotten by contacting the U.S.
Customs Agency and from other sources:

"In1993 Congress passed the Customs Modernization and Informed
Compliance Act. The Mod Act shifted responsibility for maintaining
compliance with import laws and regulations from U.S. Customs to
importers. One method used by Customs to monitor import compliance a
is a Customs Compliance Audit.


Importers can in most cases avoid costly non-compliance penalties by
demonstrating reasonable care by developing an import compliance
program that is documented in a import compliance manual. Import
compliance manuals should detail an importer’ s import compliance
procedures, and activities which must be performed. Import compliance
includes country of origin marking requirements.


Imported products on which there has been a misrepresentation of
origin may be refused entry, seized at the border, assessed a monetary
penalty or subjected to a program of forced compliance.


Failure to follow import procedures constitutes a violation of US
import laws and regulations, thereby exposing a US importer to civil
and or criminal penalties. If the failure is willful, Customs may
assess an administrative penalty not to exceed $100,000.
Alternatively, if the failure is the result of a negligence, Customs
may assess an administrative penalty not to exceed $10,000."


From this it appears that this "Informed Compliance" type enforcement
of the import laws is done in a manner similar to the IRS where
individual enforcement is not possible, but the threat of an audit
keeps the majority of the tax filers within the rules and regulations.


Perhaps if enough people called 1 (800) BE ALERT [232-5378] to report
those companies that are selling instruments to consumers and
deliberately concealing the country of origin, those companies would
be subject to a compliance audit and the ensuing fines.


John

[cpete]

Here in Mississippi we have been trying for years find a way to get more money per hour than we are worth.

Now that's hard to do without a union!. I had the pleasure years ago of playing supper club gigs in the north and paying traveling dues to the nice gentlemen who came in the club right before our first set. Just a little business card with the nice logo and the hands. Don't remember the faces but I do remember their outstretched hands, So friendly and welcoming. It was very fulfilling to contribute and I really felt like I was doing my part for the team. I once paid $20,000 for a $10,000 Chevy and let me tell you, I was damn happy to do it!

Anybody got sheet music for "Look For the Union Label"? I feel several choruses coming on now. Oh yeah, I remember now, I don't read, I just play and then they give me money. Guess 'cause I sold enough liquor. Weird thing I noticed though, the more liquor I sold the more money they gave me. Strangely enough I bought houses and planes that way. Damn!, If we would only have had unions down here I'd be living in Neverland now and flying a 747. Or I even could afford more divorces! I know unions are coming to us here and I, for one, can't wait.

[BarrySachs]

Here in Mississippi we have been trying for years find a way to get more money per hour than we are worth.

Now that's hard to do without a union!. I had the pleasure years ago of playing supper club gigs in the north and paying traveling dues to the nice gentlemen who came in the club right before our first set. Just a little business card with the nice logo and the hands. Don't remember the faces but I do remember their outstretched hands, So friendly and welcoming. It was very fulfilling to contribute and I really felt like I was doing my part for the team. I once paid $20,000 for a $10,000 Chevy and let me tell you, I was damn happy to do it!

Anybody got sheet music for "Look For the Union Label"? I feel several choruses coming on now. Oh yeah, I remember now, I don't read, I just play and then they give me money. Guess 'cause I sold enough liquor. Weird thing I noticed though, the more liquor I sold the more money they gave me. Strangely enough I bought houses and planes that way. Damn!, If we would only have had unions down here I'd be living in Neverland now and flying a 747. Or I even could afford more divorces! I know unions are coming to us here and I, for one, can't wait.

I'm not sure I understood this post?

[cpete]

OK Someone needs to invnet the sarcasm smilie

[JfW]

Thank you for you information and I am really sadly surprised. It's all too very sad, no more American made saxes...I mean come on, how hard is it to build something that has been around for 100+ years and make money on it. Maybe I'll switch her to an instrument that is made in the USA. She is a germ-a-phobe and doesn't want a used one and I really don't want to buy a foreign made anything these days.

From what I gather, even the simpler student level saxophones are quite difficult to make. A significant portion of such a complex-bored instrument has to be made by hand and hundreds of machines are involved in making hundreds of parts. Putting it all together at the end involves a lot of hands on work regulating and making sure pads seal. Labor in the United States is quite expensive compared to the Pacific Rim.

[SopAlto1]

I feel sorry for those guys, but...hard truths abound in the instrument world.

Tawain, China & Vietnam are coming on strong. They HAVE the student model market, thats it. Now, as their workers become more skilled & knowledgable, they'll have the advanced & pro market SOON.

The only US makers left will be "boutique" makers, catering to high level pro's & adult amatuer "fans" of good instruments or the old brands.

The fact that most pros play VINTAGE, also cuts into the market.

Then there's EBAY, and the internet, where parents GO FIRST, in search of deals.

I know these guys deserve every penny they get & it makes me sad to see them get cuts, BUT it's the sign of the times.

Steinway may be the EVIL corporate entity to some, but the truth is, their stock has been SUCKING for the last few years & now that they own everyone, their major competitor is YAMAHA, and they've been losing that battle for years.

[cpete]

I'm guessing that Yamaha gets to pay their employees market value for the work they produce. All in all a good way to run a business.

[piwikiwi]

It's just the same old story. Mega corporations eat up the smaller businesses with only one goal in mind, to line the purses of those on the top. The product in some regard is irrelevant. As long as companies can move their productions overseas almost at will and undermine and alienate the American worker from the company profits, it will continue. This is a well worn path. Evidently the American people prefer this kind of economic barbarism as opposed to strong worker-protective laws and unions. What goes around will surely come around.I can't agree with you more

[SopAlto1]

Their stock is around $12/share, 5 yrs ago it was around $40.
Steinway hasn't been doing so great for the last few years.

If only we could pass those "strong worker-protective laws", and protectionism, then things would really start turning around, for Steinway & the US economy. (that was sarcastic, btw)



It's just the same old story. Mega corporations eat up the smaller businesses with only one goal in mind, to line the purses of those on the top. The product in some regard is irrelevant. As long as companies can move their productions overseas almost at will and undermine and alienate the American worker from the company profits, it will continue. This is a well worn path. Evidently the American people prefer this kind of economic barbarism as opposed to strong worker-protective laws and unions. What goes around will surely come around.

[spike421]

I'm guessing that Yamaha gets to pay their employees market value for the work they produce. All in all a good way to run a business.

My guess is that the highest paid (saxophone) workers are the French employees at Selmer, Paris, especially when you consider the number of paid holidays and government required benefits. Japans labor costs are also high.

[piwikiwi]

Their stock is around $12/share, 5 yrs ago it was around $40.
Steinway hasn't been doing so great for the last few years.

If only we could pass those "strong worker-protective laws", and protectionism, then things would really start turning around, for Steinway & the US economy. (that was sarcastic, btw)



It's just the same old story. Mega corporations eat up the smaller businesses with only one goal in mind, to line the purses of those on the top. The product in some regard is irrelevant. As long as companies can move their productions overseas almost at will and undermine and alienate the American worker from the company profits, it will continue. This is a well worn path. Evidently the American people prefer this kind of economic barbarism as opposed to strong worker-protective laws and unions. What goes around will surely come around.You do not need strong laws, the problem is that the us workers really dont have any protection at all.

[cpete]

Detroit, a union city.

[click]

"Here in Mississippi...". Post 17


Where you find the highest poverty rate in the country. USDA
economic research service. Ranked dead last out of 50 states in life span of citizens, too. Assoc. Press data. A little union help on working conditions and benefits might move the place out of the bottom on those markers.


"I'm guessing that Yamaha gets to pay their employees market value for the work they produce. All in all a good way to run a business."

I am guessing Yamaha has single payer health benefits figured into the "market value" of employee pay.

[Henry D]

I'm also speculating that Yamaha is busily moving the jobs referenced above to those portions of Asia where a week's benefits for their old employees will hire a manyear worth of labor.

[legato]

"Labor in the United States is quite expensive compared to the Pacific Rim. "

That's mainly because of health insurance. Health insurance makes American employees too expensive. The price of an American car has two or three thousand dollars figured into the selling price. The health care mess is dragging this whole country down.

Brian

[FremontSax]

As the president of a small high tech company, I feel the need to interject.

A business will manufacture its goods where the overall cost is lowest.

The cost includes labor, equipment, rent, power, shipping and taxes. The cost of labor includes the payroll, payroll taxes and heath insurance.

The cost also includes equipment uptime, product quality and warranty costs (things that break do to poor manufacturing and/or poor materials).

For the individual who stated heath insurance was a primary cost. Wrong it is a fraction of the payroll and payroll taxes.

US commodity manufacturing to be competitive has to aim for high margin goods that are mainly built with equipment and that labor focuses on the equipment and not the final product.

The other types of US manufacturing that can be competitive, require highly skilled workers that focus on tasks that are not easily duplicated/learned. This is what my company and our staff does.

The reality is that saxophones/band instruments are not high tech and thus can be manufactured in countries where the cost of labor is cheaper. I don't see this changing unless a company makes a move to a fully automated production.... but if the cost of equipment is higher then the labor costs then you still can't win.

Face it, to be competitive the value of the dollar has to drop with out raising wages or wages have to drop or the skill set of the workers has to rise and then you make stuff that requires a high skill set.

[cpete]

"Here in Mississippi...". Post 17


Where you find the highest poverty rate in the country.

We are quite certainly one of the richest states, depending on your IQ level and personal unit of measure. Been to the very very poor states on the east and west coasts, been to Chicago, New York, La. D.C. SF, I know what wealth is, and it is not to be found there. We are far from poor here. Louisiana, Alabama and the panhandle of Florida are also among the richest states.

[sonnymobleytrane]

The Drama is so non-existent as of late, that some will go to great lengths to fulfill their jones....like digging up threads two and a half years old! :)

[piwikiwi]

The Drama is so non-existent as of late, that some will go to great lengths to fulfill their jones....like digging up threads two and a half years old! :)
If you don't dig up old topics, people will start whining about not using the search button.

[LampLight]

As the president of a small high tech company, I feel the need to interject. . . .

For the individual who stated heath insurance was a primary cost. Wrong it is a fraction of the payroll and payroll taxes.
. . .
Face it, to be competitive the value of the dollar has to drop with out raising wages or wages have to drop or the skill set of the workers has to rise and then you make stuff that requires a high skill set.

Hey Fremont, please don't clutter up the thread with your facts. :TGNCHK:

BTW, the thread may be old, but with 10.2 per cent unemployment, the comment and this response are very topical IMO. Plus, with there is plenty of drama and heartbreak among the 15.7 million (http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet;jsessionid=a230f17b29075015571 8) unemployed. Don't hold your breath waiting for national health care to fix unemployment.

[FremontSax]

Hey Fremont, please don't clutter up the thread with your facts. :TGNCHK:

BTW, the thread may be old, but with 10.2 per cent unemployment, the comment and this response are very topical IMO. Plus, with there is plenty of drama and heartbreak among the 15.7 million (http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet;jsessionid=a230f17b29075015571 8) unemployed. Don't hold your breath waiting for national health care to fix unemployment.

Sorry:D

What will fix unemployment is education and creativity. High skills matched with new innovative products (please not financial products).