C7

[paulman]

Why C7 means: C E G Bb and not C E G B ???

[Transcriber-arranger]

It is because it is. C7 means "C dominant 7th," not C major seventh. The symbol for C major 7th is written in numerous ways.

[Minatar12]

Maj, a capital M, a triangle...too MANY ways if you ask me.
Someone needs to come around with a STANDARD way of writing chord symbols in jazz, instead of all the aebersold ways, and then all the OTHER ways on top of that. I guess I exagerate a bit, but I still wish someone would do it.

[paulman]

Thanks. I wrote a chord nomenclature very simple thirty years ago, but this cannot go well for you americans who put the adjectif before the name! And all the people who study with your beutiful jazz books learn the chords symbols as you write them. For ex. it would be very simple and more economic to write C7+ in the place of Cmaj7. But, as I said about, you put the adjectif "maj" before and this fact don't permit an easy
nomenclature. I would enjoy that you visit the site www.jazzitalia.com where at the voice "Articoli" you can find "Accordi e sigle"(Paolo Mannelli).
There is my chords nomenclature, that probably you can appreciate for the simplicity and the shortness on naming chords. Ciao. Paolo.

[Ritchie]

Whether you choose to write C7+, Cmaj7, Cj7, use the triangle or invent new fancy notations, it will not change the sound of the chord. The discussion is of academic interest (if at all), not about music.

[Minatar12]

I agree, my point was just that from a practical standpoint, one way to write it and one way only would be much better. And I mean for stuff like extensions, not for pure dominant 7th chords like C7.

[paulman]

Whether you choose to write C7+, Cmaj7, Cj7, use the triangle or invent new fancy notations, it will not change the sound of the chord. The discussion is of academic interest (if at all), not about music.
The chord is there, but we must call it, if we want to play together.
Form and substance must go togheter, if we want understand the seem thing. For ex. I never saw such chord symbol. What I must think about?
Maybe is a major seventh or a C#7 chord? Or a Cb7 chord? Then the discussion is not only academic, but regards the music contents.

[gary]

I'm having deja vu all over again :shock:

Regardíng nomenclature being academic: I was in a soul band once and on the bridge to "My Girl" the organ player kept hitting the wrong chord. Finally the sax player (I was playing trumpet) turned around and yelled "Dammit, JJ. It's a g minor!" JJ yelled back: "Major. Minor. What the hell difference does it make. It's a "G" chord isn't it?!"

[Ritchie]

My comment about the discussion of nomenclature being academic was more about discussing "why" and trying to find a consequent logic in nomenclature than the assumably agreed view that it has certain advantages if all members in a band read their symbols in the same way :wink:

[Paul Coats]

"...it has certain advantages if all members in a band read their symbols in the same way "

No, just because all members read the chord symbol the same way does not make it correct. They must read it as the composer/arranger intends it. It is quite possible to all be together, and all be wrong.

C7+ is assumed to mean C7+5, which has an "augmented 5th" , C,E,G#, Bb.

Let's go over the chord symbols as commonly used. I will use C as the root in all cases.

C major is usually just C sometimes C followed by a triangle: C, E, G

The problem here is if you use the capital M to mean a major triad, such as CM, it will be confused with Cm, especially if handwritten on manuscript. The accepted usage is simply a capital letter, C in this case.

If a + symbol is used by itself, it is assumed to mean the 5th is augmented. This is why we do not use the + to mean major.


C minor is usually Cm, and sometimes Cmin. Some people use C-: C, Eb, G.

C dominant 7th is written as C7: C, E, G, Bb (the V7 chord in key of F)

C major 7th is written as CM7, sometimes CMaj7: C,E,G,B (the I7 chord in C)

C minor 7th is written as Cm7, sometimes Cmin7 or C-7: C,Eb,G,Bb (the ii7 chord in Bb)

C diminished 5th is written as Co or Cdim: C,Eb, Gb (vii in key of Db)

C half diminished 7th is written as C, followed by a O with a / across it, then 7, or Cm7b5: C, Eb, Gb, Bb (the vii7 chord in Db)

C diminished 7th is written as Co7 or Cdim7: C, Eb, Gb, Bbb

C augmented 5th is written as C+5 or simply C+: C, E, G#

C7 augmented 5th is written as C7+5 or simply C7+: C, E, G#, Bb

C7b9 is: C, E, G, Bb, Db

C9 is: C, E, G, Bb, D

Cm9 is: C, Eb, G, Bb, D

C11 is: C, E, G, Bb, D, F

C9+11, may be written as C+11: C, E, G, Bb, D, F#

Cb9+11 is: C, E, G, Bb, Db, F#

This one may be confusing, did you mean Cb chord or C with a b9?

b9
C +11

With a large C, and small b9 and +11.

These are the most common chord symbols used in American jazz chord notation.

IF the writer uses the minus sign ( - ) to mean minor, he would not also use the minus for flatting other notes, he would use the b sign, such as

C minor 7 with added b9 might be written C-7b9 and not C-7-9.

Or Cm7-9.

My good friend Tim Price uses the triange to mean a major triad only, and the - sign to mean minor.

He would write C-7, I would write Cm7.

I would write a C triad as simply C (C, E, G)


You will see different ways, and should familiarize yourself with all systems.

[Razzy]

I don't believe C7+ standing for major seventh chord is at all efficient. If anything, it's confusing. Aebersold used symbols to try to standardize and make the chord symbols all very different looking. When changes are flying by at lightning speed, C7 and C7+ would be much harder to distinguish than between a 7 and a triangle :roll:

[gary]

I think it's one of the most arbitrary symbols being used. Check it out.

If C7+ means C augmented 7, then why doesn't C7+9 mean C augmented 7 with the 9th added? Additionally, we use C7, CMaj7, C-7, so why not C+7? Ridiculous.

[paulman]

"...it has certain advantages if all members in a band read their symbols in the same way "

No, just because all members read the chord symbol the same way does not make it correct. They must read it as the composer/arranger intends it. It is quite possible to all be together, and all be wrong.

>>>Is it not correct to read the chord symbols the some way??? To interpretate the chord symbols means the they are not clear. How can we intend all together in the seem way the composer intention, if what he was
writing is not internationally accepted? Each person can intend in a different way.

C7+ is assumed to mean C7+5, which has an "augmented 5th" , C,E,G#, Bb.

>>>The symbol "+" means major,and/or augmented. The symbol "-" means minor,and/or diminished.

Let's go over the chord symbols as commonly used. I will use C as the root in all cases.

C major is usually just C sometimes C followed by a triangle: C, E, G

>>>What it means a triangle......maybe a triad? And a square, maybe a
four note chord? An hexagon, a sixth tone chord?

The problem here is if you use the capital M to mean a major triad, such as CM, it will be confused with Cm, especially if handwritten on manuscript. The accepted usage is simply a capital letter, C in this case.

If a + symbol is used by itself, it is assumed to mean the 5th is augmented. This is why we do not use the + to mean major.
C minor is usually Cm, and sometimes Cmin. Some people use C-: C, Eb, G.

>>>Why,when you write Cmin,do you put the adjectif "min" after "C", and
contrarily,when you write "maj7",do you put the adjectif "maj" after "7"???

C dominant 7th is written as C7: C, E, G, Bb (the V7 chord in key of F)

C major 7th is written as CM7, sometimes CMaj7: C,E,G,B (the I7 chord in C)

>>>If you write CM7,people can intend Cmajor added seventh. And CMaj or maj7 is too long to write.

C minor 7th is written as Cm7, sometimes Cmin7 or C-7: C,Eb,G,Bb (the ii7 chord in Bb)

>>>If you intend "Cmaj7" to be C added major seventh,then, when you write "Cmin7",don't you intend C added minor seventh?

C diminished 5th is written as Co or Cdim: C,Eb, Gb (vii in key of Db)

>>>C diminished 5th I think to be C E Gb. C dim is what you say.

C half diminished 7th is written as C, followed by a O with a / across it, then 7, or Cm7b5: C, Eb, Gb, Bb (the vii7 chord in Db)


C diminished 7th is written as Co7 or Cdim7: C, Eb, Gb, Bbb

>>>If your C° means C dim, C°7 must be a diminished triad plus the seventh like this: C Eb Gb Bb= C half diminished chord.

C augmented 5th is written as C+5 or simply C+: C, E, G#

>>>C+ is C major. Why to aument the fifth? You can then to augment
the third. In this case the chord will appare as C E# G......!

C7 augmented 5th is written as C7+5 or simply C7+: C, E, G#, Bb

>>>Is it not more logical that your C7+ means Cmaj7?

C7b9 is: C, E, G, Bb, Db

>>>A"b9" chord includes the minor seventh. Why to write C7b9? Enough to write Cb9. But you cannot,because who read he doesn't know if B is referred to "C" or to "9" !!!

C9 is: C, E, G, Bb, D

>>>Right! Why then here you don't write C79? Or C(7)9?

Cm9 is: C, Eb, G, Bb, D

>>>Also here you might write Cm(7)9. No?

C11 is: C, E, G, Bb, D, F

>>>The eleventh is referred to the third,I think. Third major,eleventh augmented. Third minor,eleventh right.

C9+11, may be written as C+11: C, E, G, Bb, D, F#

Cb9+11 is: C, E, G, Bb, Db, F#

This one may be confusing, did you mean Cb chord or C with a b9?

b9
C +11

With a large C, and small b9 and +11.

These are the most common chord symbols used in American jazz chord notation.

>>>...and they are very confused,as I found to demonstrate.

IF the writer uses the minus sign ( - ) to mean minor, he would not also use the minus for flatting other notes, he would use the b sign, such as

C minor 7 with added b9 might be written C-7b9 and not C-7-9.

Or Cm7-9.

My good friend Tim Price uses the triange to mean a major triad only, and the - sign to mean minor.

>>>For the same reason wathever musician can symbolize the chords as he wants.

He would write C-7, I would write Cm7.

>>>It's however minor.

I would write a C triad as simply C (C, E, G)


You will see different ways, and should familiarize yourself with all systems.

>>>I think that the system must be one clear,not confused and universally accepted.
Bye,bye. Paolo Mannelli

[paulman]

I don't believe C7+ standing for major seventh chord is at all efficient. If anything, it's confusing. Aebersold used symbols to try to standardize and make the chord symbols all very different looking. When changes are flying by at lightning speed, C7 and C7+ would be much harder to distinguish than between a 7 and a triangle :roll:

>>>The problem is not the hardness to distinguish, but the calling!
It's difficult for you,I think,to write C7+(C seventh major) and call it
C major seventh! Ciao.Paolo.

[paulman]

I think it's one of the most arbitrary symbols being used. Check it out.

If C7+ means C augmented 7, then why doesn't C7+9 mean C augmented 7 with the 9th added? Additionally, we use C7, CMaj7, C-7, so why not C+7? Ridiculous.

>>>Right! Ciao.Paolo.

[Doxy]

I think it's one of the most arbitrary symbols being used. Check it out.

If C7+ means C augmented 7, then why doesn't C7+9 mean C augmented 7 with the 9th added? Additionally, we use C7, CMaj7, C-7, so why not C+7? Ridiculous.

I've seen C+7 used in some charts.

I've always been a little fuzzy on the C7+9 because it seems that everyone uses it differently. I was initially taught that this chord is really a fully altered dominant with: #5, b5, #9, b9. Since then, I've seen books that say it is just a raised ninth, some that indicate that the ninth is completely altered (#9, b9), and some that instruct to use it as I was initially taught.

I usually disregard the extraneous symbols anyway when I'm playing (not that they aren't important). I find that my ears serve me better than my eyes when it comes to playing altered chords. Picking up on what the chordal instrument, if any, is playing and how the chord functions in context to what's around it help me decide how to approach the chord.

I'm of the opinion that the chord symbol is just a guidpost to get you in the harmonic ballpark while improvising. When I see a dominant, especially one that resolves to a tonic, I take great liberties with scale choices. Most of the time I use, or imply, a substitute chord/scale altogether. In my experience, you can make anything sound good over a dominant (especially if you aren't bound by chordal instruments) as long as you either resolve the tension, or continue to build on it. It all depends on the context and your creative intent. Sometimes even an "oops" will get people's attention in a positive way.