Cb9

[paulman]

What means such chord? Is it a Cb added 9, or a C7 added b9 ???

[Transcriber-arranger]

"Cb9" is equivalent to B9. For example, it's IV7 (add 9) in the key of Gb (6 flats). But if you write the key signature as F# (6 sharps), IV7 is B7 (add 9).

"C7(b9)" is an altogether different chord.

[paulman]

Right. But then why you've understood that Cb9 contains the lowered seventh without writing that, when in C7(b9) you've written the seventh???

[Transcriber-arranger]

The ninth chord is built upon the dominant seventh. It could be written C7(9) but isn't. The ninth interval is always equivalent to the second. If altered, the alteration must be stated. Thus C9 contains a D, C7(b9) contains a Db, and C7(#9) contains a D#.

A ninth could be used with a major seventh chord, in which case, it might be written Cmaj7 (add 9) or Cmaj9 or with a triangle substituting for "maj."

[paulman]

C9 means a C seventh added ninth. Right. But if you write Cb9, people cannot understand if this chord is C/b9 or Cb/9, and then you're compelled to write C7(b9). The problem is in the fact that you write the "b" before the "9": the adjectif before the number. And this way lets
become very complicate your chord naming system. Here in Italy we call your C7(b9) as C9-, cause the fact that we put the adjectif after.
If you like, you can visit the site www.jazzitalia.com where at voice
"Articoli" on "Accordi e sigle"(Paolo Mannelli) you can find at the end a chord nomenclature, very simple and functional. Chords are built on the tone partials and not on the major scale degrees. Ciao. Paolo.

[Minatar12]

I don't think many people that see Cb9 are going to think the root or the scale is "C flat." You usually only see C flat in music theory when your teacher makes you want to analyze intervals or something.

[paulman]

And then why do you write C(7)b9 ??? More simple to write Cb9 !!!

[Doxy]

And then why do you write C(7)b9 ??? More simple to write Cb9 !!!

It all goes back to a bunch of hyperintellectual music geeks who were so insecure about their ability (or inability) to actually play the music that they decided to invent an excessively elaborate and confusing notation scheme that would innevitably confuse the snot out of honest players.

Just in case you weren't being sarcastic, I'll try to play the role of hyperintellectual music geek...

The b9 alters the extention of a dominant chord, in this case C7, which is the root chord.

There are two ways that your suggested notation could be confusing. I'm cloudy on the official academic reasons handed down by the gurus with expensively-framed music dipolmas hanging on their office walls. I'll give you my practical reasoning.

1.)
Cb9 implies that the chord is a ninth chord with a root of Cb:
Cb,Eb,Gb,Bbb,Db
1 , 3 , 5 , b7 , 9

This is an enharmonic nightmare that is more commonly voiced:
B,D#,F#,A,C#

2.)
Adding an extention beyond the 7th implies that the chord is indeed constructed to the seventh:

C7(b9) = C,E,G,Bb,Db

By notating as Cb9, you create some ambiguity. Is the chord is a Cb triad with a b7 and a 9 added, or it is a C triad with a flat nine (C,E,G,Db)? The latter would more correctly be perceived as a C(b2) (C,Db,E,G) because adding a 9, altered or not, implies that the chord would be C7, not C. The nine is just a way of stacking a 2 on top of a seventh chord. Without the 7, the nine is meaningless.

The same can be done with a 4, which is also the 11.

C7+4 is a C dominant chord with an augmented 4th.

Even though the 4 and the 11 are the same note, C7#11 implies that the altered note is stacked above the original chord, rather than added within it.

C7+4 = C,E,F#,G,Bb

C7#11 = C,E,G,Bb,D,F#

Both contain an augmented fourth, but the notation of the C7#11 implies that the 9 is included as part of the chord's extention, giving the chord a thicker sound.

It's probably clear as mud, but this is how my mind rationalizes it. I probably should have just waited for someone with a clearer understanding of jazz theory to elaborate. At any rate, it's late and I'm way too sober.

[paulman]

And then why do you write C(7)b9 ??? More simple to write Cb9 !!!

>>>It all goes back to a bunch of hyperintellectual music geeks who were so insecure about their ability (or inability) to actually play the music that they decided to invent an excessively elaborate and confusing notation scheme that would innevitably confuse the snot out of honest players.

+++What means "honest players"? Maybe it means to accept passively all what is given, without asking if is this correct or not?

>>>Just in case you weren't being sarcastic, I'll try to play the role of hyperintellectual music geek...

The b9 alters the extention of a dominant chord, in this case C7, which is the root chord.

+++Also the minor seventh of C (that's Bb) added to the simply C major chord alters that chord and then it should be written as C major plus the minor seventh as C(maj)b7. Not?

>>>There are two ways that your suggested notation could be confusing. I'm cloudy on the official academic reasons handed down by the gurus with expensively-framed music dipolmas hanging on their office walls. I'll give you my practical reasoning.

1.)
Cb9 implies that the chord is a ninth chord with a root of Cb:
Cb,Eb,Gb,Bbb,Db
1 , 3 , 5 , b7 , 9

+++I think that your chord naming system,as your language, places the adjectif before the name and then the chord "Cb9" implies that it is a C chord added the flat ninth (do you see that I'called "flat ninth"?Before the adjectif and ater the name)and not a Cb chord extended to the ninth because in this case, to be correct, you must say "bC" (adjectif before) and then "9", as "bC9". Right? Yes,but impossible for you!!!

>>>This is an enharmonic nightmare that is more commonly voiced:
B,D#,F#,A,C#

+++I know this, expecially if you draw the chord naming from the tone partials.

>>>
2.)
Adding an extention beyond the 7th implies that the chord is indeed constructed to the seventh:

C7(b9) = C,E,G,Bb,Db

By notating as Cb9, you create some ambiguity.

+++There's no ambiguity, if it is true that you put always the adjectif before. I think that the ambiguity is really in your naming system, where sometimes you write that before, as in "b9" and sometimes after, as in
"Cb", and you call the first "flat ninth" and the second "C flat". For this reason, in this case, you don't know if the "b" is referred to the "C" or to
the "9", and consequently you're compelled to write C(7)b9.

>>>Is the chord is a Cb triad with a b7 and a 9 added, or it is a C triad with a flat nine (C,E,G,Db)? The latter would more correctly be perceived as a C(b2) (C,Db,E,G) because adding a 9, altered or not, implies that the chord would be C7, not C. The nine is just a way of stacking a 2 on top of a seventh chord. Without the 7, the nine is meaningless.

+++It would be more useful write C(b9) with parenthese to understand C E G Bb Db, because a flatted ninth chord implies in itself a minor seventh tone. Why to write C7(b9)? All the people knows that a seventh implies a triad, a ninth a seventh, an eleventh a ninth, and a thirteen an eleventh. Why, to understand C13, don't you write C7/9/aug11/13 ???
Too complicate?

>>>The same can be done with a 4, which is also the 11.

C7+4 is a C dominant chord with an augmented 4th.

Even though the 4 and the 11 are the same note, C7#11 implies that the altered note is stacked above the original chord, rather than added within it.

C7+4 = C,E,F#,G,Bb

+++I think that your spelling is not right, because in such chord the fifth is substituted by the augmented fourth, like this: C E F# Bb. You cannot play together the fifth and the augmented fourth with half tone of distance.

>>>C7#11 = C,E,G,Bb,D,F#

+++Why to write C7 in that chord? If you say C11, there is all in, because the thirds are always major, the sevenths always minor, the ninths always major, the eleventhe always augmented and the thirteen always major, if not specified.

>>>Both contain an augmented fourth, but the notation of the C7#11 implies that the 9 is included as part of the chord's extention, giving the chord a thicker sound.

It's probably clear as mud, but this is how my mind rationalizes it. I probably should have just waited for someone with a clearer understanding of jazz theory to elaborate. At any rate, it's late and I'm way too sober.

+++It's never too late. The more important thing is that we acknowledge that the system must be changed. The hope is the last to dead,we say here in Italy.
I don't know if I have well understood what you said, cause my bad english. I prie you to excuse me if there is something misunderstood. Ciao and thanks for your interest on these problems. Paolo.

[Doxy]

[quote="Doxy"][quote=paulman]And then why do you write C(7)b9 ???

Why not? I don't want the theory police knocking on MY door! :D


+++Also the minor seventh of C (that's Bb) added to the simply C major chord alters that chord and then it should be written as C major plus the minor seventh as C(maj)b7. Not?

Hey, I thought we were trying to simplify this process of notation. Besides, to cram notation like that into a bebop chart with a gazillion chords per measure, you'd need a microscope to read it. C7b9 would be C(maj)b7(b9).


1.)
Cb9 implies that the chord is a ninth chord with a root of Cb:
Cb,Eb,Gb,Bbb,Db
1 , 3 , 5 , b7 , 9

+++I think that your chord naming system,as your language, places the adjectif before the name and then the chord "Cb9" implies that it is a C chord added the flat ninth (do you see that I'called "flat ninth"?Before the adjectif and ater the name)and not a Cb chord extended to the ninth because in this case, to be correct, you must say "bC" (adjectif before) and then "9", as "bC9". Right? Yes,but impossible for you!!!

You mean I'm supposed to put the adjective before the words moron and jerk when referring to my boss? Interesting. I'll have to call more tunes in bF.

>>>This is an enharmonic nightmare that is more commonly voiced:
B,D#,F#,A,C#

+++I know this, expecially if you draw the chord naming from the tone partials.

Yeah, I love coming across a Cb in a fast bebop tune that I'm sightreading from a concert chart. That's usually when I leave the stand to refill my glass of scotch. :twisted:

By notating as Cb9, you create some ambiguity.

+++There's no ambiguity, if it is true that you put always the adjectif before. I think that the ambiguity is really in your naming system, where sometimes you write that before, as in "b9" and sometimes after, as in
"Cb", and you call the first "flat ninth" and the second "C flat". For this reason, in this case, you don't know if the "b" is referred to the "C" or to
the "9", and consequently you're compelled to write C(7)b9.

Yeah, but I don't think all of the geeks stinking in the local University's music department would appreciate the notation system (although I think you might be on to something. I'd love to see their faces when they pick up the new edition of the bB Real Book).

+++It would be more useful write C(b9) with parenthese to understand C E G Bb Db, because a flatted ninth chord implies in itself a minor seventh tone. Why to write C7(b9)? All the people knows that a seventh implies a triad, a ninth a seventh, an eleventh a ninth, and a thirteen an eleventh. Why, to understand C13, don't you write C7/9/aug11/13 ???
Too complicate?

Because I like the friggin' 7 plastered on those chord symbols!!! 8) (where is the sarcastic emoticon...I mean the emoticon sarcastic?)


C7+4 = C,E,F#,G,Bb

+++I think that your spelling is not right, because in such chord the fifth is substituted by the augmented fourth, like this: C E F# Bb. You cannot play together the fifth and the augmented fourth with half tone of distance.

Yeah, I know. I blundered this one. Sorry.

I play chord tones a half tone distance all the time. For instance, an E7b9:

E,F,G#,B,D with E and F...ah, you know.

>>>C7#11 = C,E,G,Bb,D,F#

+++Why to write C7 in that chord? If you say C11, there is all in, because the thirds are always major, the sevenths always minor, the ninths always major, the eleventhe always augmented and the thirteen always major, if not specified.

Because I don't like to put the natural symbol into a chord name if it isn't needed. Why take away the 7 only to add another symbol in front of the C? Your suggested notation would require something of this sort to indicate that the chord is not a C#(11).

I have to go back to work now, but I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion now.[/i]

[paulman]

[quote=Doxy][quote=paulman]And then why do you write C(7)b9 ???

Why not? I don't want the theory police knocking on MY door!

!!! You can also write Cmaj/7/b9. You can write what you want, but the aim is the simplicity and not the complexity. I'm searching for simplicity.


+++Also the minor seventh of C (that's Bb) added to the simply C major chord alters that chord and then it should be written as C major plus the minor seventh as C(maj)b7. Not?

Hey, I thought we were trying to simplify this process of notation. Besides, to cram notation like that into a bebop chart with a gazillion chords per measure, you'd need a microscope to read it. C7b9 would be C(maj)b7(b9).

!!! You let me say what you'll say if your naming chord would be correct.
Cb9, to coming back to the sources, for you as for me is a Cb added ninth, but then why do you name it C(7)b9 ??? It will be enough to call it Cb9 without to place the sevent in parenthese. Don't you think that this way of writing is more simple?

1.)
Cb9 implies that the chord is a ninth chord with a root of Cb:
Cb,Eb,Gb,Bbb,Db
1 , 3 , 5 , b7 , 9

+++I think that your chord naming system,as your language, places the adjectif before the name and then the chord "Cb9" implies that it is a C chord added the flat ninth (do you see that I'called "flat ninth"?Before the adjectif and ater the name)and not a Cb chord extended to the ninth because in this case, to be correct, you must say "bC" (adjectif before) and then "9", as "bC9". Right? Yes,but impossible for you!!!

You mean I'm supposed to put the adjective before the words moron and jerk when referring to my boss? Interesting. I'll have to call more tunes in bF.

!!! I don't understand what you mean. Please, find to be more clear in your answers, cause my bad english. Maybe I don't understand correctly what you means, but the things don't change, they remain the seems:
You cannot to put the adjective sometimes before as in "C flat =(Cb)" and sometimes after as in"flat 9=(b9)". I'm asking: is this correct?

>>>This is an enharmonic nightmare that is more commonly voiced:
B,D#,F#,A,C#

+++I know this, expecially if you draw the chord naming from the tone partials.

Yeah, I love coming across a Cb in a fast bebop tune that I'm sightreading from a concert chart. That's usually when I leave the stand to refill my glass of scotch. :twisted:

!!! Scotch is very spiritous,if I've good understood.

By notating as Cb9, you create some ambiguity.

+++There's no ambiguity, if it is true that you put always the adjectif before. I think that the ambiguity is really in your naming system, where sometimes you write that before, as in "b9" and sometimes after, as in
"Cb", and you call the first "flat ninth" and the second "C flat". For this reason, in this case, you don't know if the "b" is referred to the "C" or to
the "9", and consequently you're compelled to write C(7)b9.

Yeah, but I don't think all of the geeks stinking in the local University's music department would appreciate the notation system (although I think you might be on to something. I'd love to see their faces when they pick up the new edition of the bB Real Book).

!!! Real book is written on C and on Bb and on Eb and also the chords, we find there, must be written as name before, adjective after for a logical system.

+++It would be more useful write C(b9) with parenthese to understand C E G Bb Db, because a flatted ninth chord implies in itself a minor seventh tone. Why to write C7(b9)? All the people knows that a seventh implies a triad, a ninth a seventh, an eleventh a ninth, and a thirteen an eleventh. Why, to understand C13, don't you write C7/9/aug11/13 ???
Too complicate?

Because I like the friggin' 7 plastered on those chord symbols!!! 8) (where is the sarcastic emoticon...I mean the emoticon sarcastic?)

!!! Excuse me, I don't understand!


C7+4 = C,E,F#,G,Bb

+++I think that your spelling is not right, because in such chord the fifth is substituted by the augmented fourth, like this: C E F# Bb. You cannot play together the fifth and the augmented fourth with half tone of distance.

Yeah, I know. I blundered this one. Sorry.

I play chord tones a half tone distance all the time. For instance, an E7b9:

E,F,G#,B,D with E and F...ah, you know.

!!! The E(7)b9 chord (that is for me that an E9b, because we put the adjectif after...!!!) is composed by the following tones E G# B D F. You're speaking in your answer maybe of the relative scale HWHWHWHW, where you find E right near F at the beginning.

>>>C7#11 = C,E,G,Bb,D,F#

+++Why to write C7 in that chord? If you say C11, there is all in, because the thirds are always major, the sevenths always minor, the ninths always major, the eleventhe always augmented and the thirteen always major, if not specified.

Because I don't like to put the natural symbol into a chord name if it isn't needed. Why take away the 7 only to add another symbol in front of the C? Your suggested notation would require something of this sort to indicate that the chord is not a C#(11).

!!! C11 (before the name of the tone and after the adjectif...!) if you draw the symbols from the tone partials is intended as having a flat seventh (Bb) and a raised eleventh (F#). If you draw the chord names from the major scale, you must write "#11", and then you're compelled to write
C(7)#11 (more complex as to write C11).


I have to go back to work now, but I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion now.[/i]

!!! I also, also I must go to write "Along came Betty" for a ten elements ensemle. Ciao.Paolo.

[Doxy]

[quote="Doxy"][quote="paulman"][quote="Doxy"][quote=paulman]!!! You let me say what you'll say if your naming chord would be correct.
Cb9, to coming back to the sources, for you as for me is a Cb added ninth, but then why do you name it C(7)b9 ??? It will be enough to call it Cb9 without to place the sevent in parenthese. Don't you think that this way of writing is more simple?

Actually I don't put the 7 in parentheses, I put the b9 in parentheses. This notation is just the way I learned from the books and charts I studied (I don't have a formal education in music). I personally find it easier to read C7(b9) than to read it any other way. When I see the C7 in a chart, my fingers automatically think dominant. When I see anything added after it (#9, b5, #11), I then think dominant with appropriate alterations to the dominant chord. Call me old-fashioned, but it works for me. Changing it in any way would screw me up big time.

If the chord is dominant with unaltered extensions, then yes, just putting the 9 or 11 or 13 directly after the chord symbol is appropriate (C9, F#13, Ab11). What if we have an Ab chord extended to the 11, but with a #9? For me, I would notate it as Ab11(#9). Does this seem logical? Sure, the 11 implies that the 9 is included in the voicing, but the b9 indicates the appropriate alteration.

!!! I don't understand what you mean. Please, find to be more clear in your answers, cause my bad english. Maybe I don't understand correctly what you means, but the things don't change, they remain the seems:
You cannot to put the adjective sometimes before as in "C flat =(Cb)" and sometimes after as in"flat 9=(b9)". I'm asking: is this correct?

Yes this is correct. In this case, Cb is written the way it is because it is the name of a tone. In the case of the 9, there is no note named 9-flat. You are referring to the degree of a scale/chord, which could be any of 12 tones depending on the root. So, when altering the degree of a scale, you put the "adjective" first. b9, #11, etc.


!!! Scotch is very spiritous,if I've good understood.

It is indeed 8)

Because I like the friggin' 7 plastered on those chord symbols!!! 8) (where is the sarcastic emoticon...I mean the emoticon sarcastic?)

!!! Excuse me, I don't understand!

Sorry, I was just having some fun.


!!! I also, also I must go to write "Along came Betty" for a ten elements ensemle. Ciao.Paolo.

Great tune. I've been working on this one myself. Ten piece group, sounds great! I've been playing it in a pianoless trio.

[paulman]

[quote="paulman"][quote="Doxy"][quote="paulman"][quote="Doxy"][quote=paulman]!!! You let me say what you'll say if your naming chord would be correct.
Cb9, to coming back to the sources, for you as for me is a Cb added ninth, but then why do you name it C(7)b9 ??? It will be enough to call it Cb9 without to place the sevent in parenthese. Don't you think that this way of writing is more simple?

Actually I don't put the 7 in parentheses, I put the b9 in parentheses. This notation is just the way I learned from the books and charts I studied (I don't have a formal education in music). I personally find it easier to read C7(b9) than to read it any other way.

°°° I'm thinking that you're compelled to write C7(b9), because, if you write only Cb9, you go to play a Cb (ninth) chord in the place of a C (flat ninth) chord, as we said before.

When I see the C7 in a chart, my fingers automatically think dominant. When I see anything added after it (#9, b5, #11), I then think dominant with appropriate alterations to the dominant chord. Call me old-fashioned, but it works for me. Changing it in any way would screw me up big time.

°°°When I see a #9, or 11, or 13, or what you want about the chords extensions, I'm going automatically to think a dominant chord also if the
"7" is not written. Your not old fashioned at all, simply you're adopting the
all the world well known chord naming system, that is not so simple as it would like to be. In naming chords the seventh is always minor, if not otherwise specified and then it would not be necessary to write it, but as I said, you're compelled to write it to not understand an other chord structure, like Cb9 (what is that? A Cb/9, or a C/b9 ???) that you must write Cb(7)9. And, I repeat, all these complications come out from the fact that you put the adjectif before.



If the chord is dominant with unaltered extensions, then yes, just putting the 9 or 11 or 13 directly after the chord symbol is appropriate (C9, F#13, Ab11). What if we have an Ab chord extended to the 11, but with a #9? For me, I would notate it as Ab11(#9). Does this seem logical? Sure, the 11 implies that the 9 is included in the voicing, but the b9 indicates the appropriate alteration.

°°°What difference then if the tension is altered or not? Why is it correct to write C9 and incorrect to write Cb9? The problem come out because in the second case you understand a Cb ninth chord and not a C seventh flat ninth. If you can put the adjectif after,as when you name the tones, and not before, as when you call the extensions, the problem would be resolved and you can call C9b, because before to be flat it is ninth.

!!! I don't understand what you mean. Please, find to be more clear in your answers, cause my bad english. Maybe I don't understand correctly what you means, but the things don't change, they remain the seems:
You cannot to put the adjective sometimes before as in "C flat =(Cb)" and sometimes after as in"flat 9=(b9)". I'm asking: is this correct?

Yes this is correct. In this case, Cb is written the way it is because it is the name of a tone. In the case of the 9, there is no note named 9-flat. You are referring to the degree of a scale/chord, which could be any of 12 tones depending on the root. So, when altering the degree of a scale, you put the "adjective" first. b9, #11, etc.

°°°Cb, right, is written the way it is, not because it is the name of a tone, but because, before to be flat, it must be C. This tone is not a B, this tone is before a C that, only after, we see to be flat and then, as you said, it is a Cb.
I don't understand because, if you alter the degree of a scale, you must put the adjective before. Taking for ex. "b9", I think that, before to know if it s flat or raised, we must know that is the ninth to be altered, as about the tone naming. Before to be flat it must be ninth.
This your and international system lets write the chords in a complex way
like in H.Hancock "Maiden voyage" 2°bar where we find a such chord:
Db7(#9,13,b9). From the bottom F B D F Bb C# E.