Wide rails = stuffy?

[BobD]

I have 4 NY Links from the WWBW. They are all very different. The length of the pieces is different, baffles look different and rails all look different. Well, one of them plays pretty good. It has a very obvious baffle right at the tip that is sort of squared off. It definately adds some brightness which is what I'm looking for since my other peice is a pretty dark playing HR Link. The one thing about this particular piece is that it can be a bit stuffy at certain volumes. Like when I play soft ot doesn't respond as quickly as the HR Link. I looked at the piece and the rails are pretty wide at the bsae of the window and then they taper off at the tip. When I compare to the HR Link the HR definately has narrower rails. Could the wideness of the rails affect how a piece blows(ie free or stuffy)?

[raoul duke]

Like when I play soft ot doesn't respond as quickly as the HR Link.All other things equal, that's always going to be true when comparing metal and rubber mpcs.

Could the wideness of the rails affect how a piece blows(ie free or stuffy)?Absolutely. If you study some of the reed adjustment charts that are out there, and notice what parts of the reed produce what frequencies of sound, you'll realize that edges of the reed produce the higher frequencies. Wide rails stifle the edges of the reed, muffling the sound by reducing the part of the sound spectrum that produces the clarity and edge.

[Thomas]

Some mpc makers think that the rail dimensions are a relatively minor contributing factor in mpc stuffiness though thinning the rails does help mask other flaws in the design and manufacture.

[Mike Ruhl]

I agree. Rail thickness is not the only thing that causes stuffiness, maybe not even the main thing, but it does contribute.

[MojoBari]

A narrow window can be stuffy. A wide window is better for most players which is usually present with thin rails. A wide window with thick rails plays well too, but then the piece is wider than the reed. This mostly makes it more difficult to center up the reed on the piece, but I think it does not speak as fast as a piece that is the same as the reed width. Its just an impression of mine. But I've faced some tenor pieces so they can take a tenor or a wider bari sax reed, and they work fine as long as the window is as wide as you can make it without losing a reed contact width of about .040" on each rail.

[Johannes Gerber]

Are we talking thick vs thin rails or wide vs narrow windows?

[Mike Ruhl]

Both, apparently. :wink:

[Johannes Gerber]

Sorry for taking so long, I had an ugly virus and worked around the clock for the past few days to save the system and restore.

My experience is that in most cases, stuffiness comes from a table that's leaking air, or a curve that doesn't start smoothly from the starting point just after the table, (severe lack in bottom responce) or a thick tiprail, to some extend the chamber size can make a piece play more stuffy - asuming the rails aren't balanced

I would never blame stuffiness on thick or thin side rails, what is stuffiness? When you blow more air than needed, feeling severe lack in responce with a muffled tone and resistance. A weak tone that breaks up

General rule for me in all my pieces and refacing work - valuable advice from Jon - is that the rails should be as wide as possible near the tip (15mm inside measurement on alto) (16 on tenor) - This makes for very good responce and all the frequencies are heard better. (modern tenor links are about 15mm avarage) This is not valid for all designs, you have to play it and cut it until the best Tone is achieved. Most modern Links will play well with only the table fixed and lay - using the same thick side rails, making the siderails thinner will change the way the piece blows but also the tone.

This way you can have a window that's 15mm wide between the rails at the tip, but with thick rails that extend past the reed (avage 16mm alto) (17,1mm ten)

This would still give the good responce since the window is the same width, BUT - the tone will be different for sure. Having a smaller overall window will make a piece harder blowing in a way, maybe not much, the piece wil not be as loud as well.

For the exact same facing on a few pieces, my experience with rubber is that the moment the rails are thinned, responce and loudness increases dramatically, but there also is an increase in brightness to the tone, edge, on alto a very noticable buzz is achieved. Sometimes annoying.

The rail thickness determine the tone produced, in conjunction with the chamber/baffle, but thin rails (tip rail especially) makes for a more edgy, brighter tone. When making the tip rail slightly thicker, 0.4/0.5mm - a definate difference can be heard for the better, without loosing responce.

I am sometimes surprised by the amount of brightness achieved from very large chamber pieces, just by getting the rails right. But this - whether thick or thin - won't make the piece stuffy, it will change the tone though.

Personally I like thin rails and wide windows, for this you have to have enough baffle to support the air else the piece will feel dead. In my own pieces and numerous experiments I could only determine that thick or thin rails changes the sound and core. (talking siderails) tip rails should be very thin to give great responce - but then some pieces with thick siderails plays very well - it's a matter of personal preference and keeping the balance between TONE and RESPONCE. It's the TONE that counts afterall - won't help you to play the best responding piece with an ugly, harsh tone.

Stuffiness comes from bad tables/curves and warped reeds - in other words, a piece that is not in balance with itself, that's using too much air, or won't allow enought air to pass - (leaking) for the given chamber and baffle size.

Best
JG

[raoul duke]

Great post - thank you! I stand corrected.

[shmuelyosef]

Jo,
Great post! You've explained the things that I like about Lamberson and Morgan Excalibur (I play an 8EL on tenor) mouthpieces. They both take relatively large chambers and add brightness by thinning the rails, but maintain the tonal complexity that comes from the large chamber. Both have remarkable power and dynamic range for large chamber pieces, and don't develop added resistance or break up even at very high volumes. Also, both have excellent control down to a whisper. Your Tonelink that I bought is similarly disposed. I never thought about it like this...

[Johannes Gerber]

Thank you, it's my pleasure, wish I had time to write every single thing down everyday. It would make a great book over a few years time.

Best
JG

[cc]

They both take relatively large chambers and add brightness by thinning the rails, .

I play a Morgan 7EL on tenor. I think it is the material that is left behind the tip rail that adds to the brightness more than the thin side rails. I have a 7E and a 7EL, when I compare them side be side the 7EL looks as if it has a little more baffle just behind the tip. This probably compensates for the larger chamber more than the thin side rails.