Is my alto a Buescher?

[OCdt TANG]

Hi,

I've had this sax for a couple of years now and love it, but just never officially cleared up EXACTLY what it is/when it's from. Just very recently I decided it was time to figure it all out.

I bought the vintage horn off of Ebay a few years ago for a great price in my opinion and I absolutely love it. Sorry to say I have no pictures of it right now, but if I get a hold of a friend's camera I will try to load some up.

Most people I originally asked believed it to be a Martin or a Conn. Martin, because the shape of the high LH keys. Conn, I don't remember why. I originally believed it to be a Martin as well, but was never sure.

After recent research I now believe it to be a Buescher under the production of Elkhart, but would like some opinions. Engraved on the bell is:
The
Elkhart
BAND-INST.-CO.
ELKHART
IND.
All of this inside a heart with an elk head on top with floral all around. Laquer I think is all original and I would say probably 95%. Nice shiny dark bronze finish (wear marks rubber down by finger use turned cool dull golden colour.

Serial number: 53097 with LP (for low pitch) underneath.

This would date it to 1919-20 if it is considered Buescher, but I think it would more likely be around 1930 (I believe that's when the Elkharts were produced?). I know it was played throughout europe throughout the war by a previous owner. (had some info on original owner on the ebay add, and I'm kicking myself now for not printing it off... I find all that kind of thing interesting).

Is the Elkhart model considered to be a stencil? and if so is it considered worse than originals? Not that I care too much, because the sound on this one is exactly what I love on an alto, but still.

After purchasing this sax, I have really fallen in love with the vintage sound. In my opinion, no new horn brings the same personality in it. But in all fairness I've never touched some of the real pricey models out there either lol.

Anyway, any help/info on this would be greatly appreciated!
(and after that I may have to find out similar info to my original 1st alto. Non-vintage, probably not a great model per say, but again, did me well with a nice sound and I still have it today.);)

Thanks a lot,
Ryan

[Dave dix]

Buescher bought Elkhart band inst co but it could be an original elkhart as buescher put Elkhart by Buescher on their horns
Dave

[milandro]

The Indiana Band Instrument Company was a company which was owned by Martin and produced most of their stencils.

The tell tale signs of the Martin are bevelled and soldered toneholes (the chimneys). Here http://www.themartinstory.net/ you will find more about Martin.

Of course Buescher is an entirely different sort of horn
http://www.saxpics.com/buescher/index.htm

And they did own a Elkhart Band Instrument Company form 1927 on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elkhart_Band_Instrument_Company

I think the more knowledgeable members on this forum (therefore not me;) ) will greatly benefit from the pubblications of some pics in order to precisely identify your horn.

[OCdt TANG]

Thanks for the info guys.

My sax does have soldered and bevelled tone holes, that was another reason I originally thought it to be a Martin. I have not found any model Martin to be the same as this though. The link you gave me on Elkhart is partially what I have read about leading me to believe I have a Buescher.

I am going to try to get some pictures up today.

[OCdt TANG]

Ok I actually just came across an old thread in another forum that pretty much describes my sax I think. Similar serial number too. (Someone had the same problem as me, and there were some good descriptive responses). Here's the link if you're interested:
http://www.saxquest.com/forumThreadView.asp?ForumUID=7&ThreadUID=2655

I will still post some pictures up sometime today, for more confirmation. But now I really think it is a Buescher made Elkhart from 1919-1920.

[OCdt TANG]

Here's the pictures:

[OCdt TANG]

I see views, any comments?

[hgrail]

Interesting horn.
The body with the soldered toneholes says "Martin" to me - though with no high F it would be pre 1930. The clubbed high Eb key says "Buescher" to me though -the Martin's were generally shaped to be more similar to one another.
If it were pre 1929 Buescher I would think it would have the round pearl G# though - but the G# isn't the later Buescher style either.

So perhaps a Martin body with some Buescher transitional keywork?
My best guess anyway.

Anyone else?

[luispa]

I think it's a Martin because the bevelled tone holes and the C/Eb keys mechanism. I sold one of these Elkhart a month ago, great sounding sax.

[OCdt TANG]

hm interesting. Now I'm all messed up again! lol
Thought I actually had it all down to being a Buescher made Elkhart, but now the Martin idea comes up again...

Thanks hgrail and luispa. But one thign on your comments... so Martin did in fact make Elkharts as well? After some recent reading I thought that it was Beardsley and C.G. Conn that had to do with it... Linking Conn, Buescher and Elkhart all together. How does Martin fit in?

[luispa]

Martin did in fact make Elkharts as well?

Yes. Most of Elkhart were Buescher but there's a few Martins also.

[Dave Dolson]

The split bell pads tells me it is 1920's. The G# touch was not Buescher as far as I know. The LP marking differs from what Buescher used (Low Pitch spelled out). DAVE

[bruce bailey]

That horn was made by the Indiana Band Inst. Co. which Martin bought sometime in the late 20s. I have seen them stenciled for a lot of makers including Holton. After Martin bought them, they were renamed INDIANA and continued with the 20s design into the mid 30s at least. I have one from about 1933 with the indian head on the bell. They never had the front F and most of the keywork was similar to Martin but not the same. I find them to be similar to a series I Handcraft with the thinner tone holes.

[OCdt TANG]

That horn was made by the Indiana Band Inst. Co. which Martin bought sometime in the late 20s. I have seen them stenciled for a lot of makers including Holton. After Martin bought them, they were renamed INDIANA and continued with the 20s design into the mid 30s at least.

So you're saying that my horn was made buy indiana band inst co BEFORE Martin bought it out?... Making it not a Conn, not a Buescher, not a Martin, but technically just called: The Elkhart, made by Indiana Band Inst. co.? hm
thanks for the input:)

[Nick880]

If you go to sax.co.uk and look under the section "old saxes" you will see a sax marked "sold" which is listed as "1920's Elkhart (by Buescher)" - sorry I haven't been able to create a link. This is a silver plated model, but other than that very similar to yours. I had a blow on this sax before they sold it, and yes, it really did have a nice tone.

[LBAjazz]

Can you post a picture of the octave mechanism?

[OCdt TANG]

Ocvtave mech. pics:

and Nick880, yes that sax apperas to be almost exactly like mine. Only differences I see are that I don't think the tone holes are bevelled on that one (hard to tell), and the key guard attachments on that one are oval, and on mine they're diamiond lol (which is completely insignificant).
But they don't seem sure on the model either, saying only: "Our online research suggests that it is early 1920's and made by Buescher."

but thankyou for the link:)

[Bootman]

I would beg to differ because many of the features of that horn are very Conn of the very early 20's and late teens. The tone holes look soldered like my 1921 Conn Bass, in fact they are so similar in terms of set that I would say they were identical. The Eb palm key is very Conn too of this early period.

Some other features look Buescher too. The angle of the bell is very Conn like. The low Eb vent/trill key looks Conn.

I couldn't put a manufacturer on it as a stencil horn but it looks like a conglomeration of various manufacturers. it may have possibly been a way the factory had of getting rid of the older parts lying about in storage.

[OCdt TANG]

Hm, I have heard a lot of other people comment on the Conn like features, and that's why it was a toss up between Conn and Martin over the last couple of years and I just left it at that. By what you're saying, it seems like I may never find out exactlyyyy what I'm wondering about what/where/when history of my sax:(. But I have learnt a lot about all of these brands in the process, so that's somewhat of a consolation I guess lol.
But hey, it plays and sounds great and it more than works for me, so I'm happy.

Overall now looking at all the opinions online and in person I've had over the years I haven't narrowed the search, but more-so broadened it lol.
Could be a Conn, Martin, Buescher, just Elkhart on its own, or possibly even a mutt (mix of a few).

I still don't want to give up yet though, so keep the thoughts/opinions/ideas and references coming!

Thanks:)

[Pinnman]

Well, well, well! I have rarely seen people who usually get it right disagree so much! What to make of this one?!

Firstly, let's clarify the question of soldered tone holes. Yes, Martin was the company that persevered, but Buescher made them and Conn made a few, too. These are nothing like Martin though; the shape is all wrong. Buescher just maybe, but they look more rounded than these. Conn? - sorry, no idea.

The maker, Elkhart B.I.C., used Martin much of the time, but also Buescher, before being bought up by Buescher (I thought 1928, but I can't argue with 1927). The Elk's head is to be expected, too. Split bell keys say 1920s, but then so too does the make.

The Eb key is pure Buescher to me ... but Conn to Bootman. The other keywork - G# excepted - is very difficult to call at that period.

Intriguing!

[Dave dix]

Back to my first answer 'its an original ELKHART BAND INSTRUMENT CO ' horn and not an Indiana band ins co horn. Elkhart was bought by buescher and indiana was bought by martin.
Dave

[Maddeaux]

Pinnman,

Thank you for pointing out that Martin did not completely have the market cornered on beveled soldered tone holes. I too used to think that everything with these was a Martin in one form or another. Being a big Buescher fan my research on them led me to info that Bueshcer also used this form of construction on some of there horns. They are rather scarce, but they are out there. I believe that I have seen a couple Buescher stencil with the beveled tone holes as well.

[bruce bailey]

There is yet another company to confuse all of this. Courturier built similar horns in Elkhart and most were for Lyon & Healy (Chicago) who supposedly bought the company in 1928.

[OCdt TANG]

:scratch: :?

[hgrail]

Looks like you're not getting consensus on this one...

Look at the bright side - NOBODY will ever show up with the same horn you have- (and nobody can trash talk your horn either):D

[OCdt TANG]

Haha. That's a good point, I definitely like having a unique horn:)

Nice avatar by the way, looks a bit like my family's cat when he was a kitten.

[OCdt TANG]

So's that it then?
That's cool, because I've gotten some interesting info out of all this even if I didn't figure out exactly what my horn is for sure...
Thanks everyone that responded:)

(I might try again later on to see if anyone comes up with anything else lol)

Ryan

[Dave dix]

'its an original ELKHART BAND INSTRUMENT CO ' horn
Dave

[OCdt TANG]

Back to my first answer 'its an original ELKHART BAND INSTRUMENT CO ' horn and not an Indiana band ins co horn. Elkhart was bought by buescher and indiana was bought by martin.
Dave

Oh ok, sorry I didn't get that the first time lol. When you first said that I thought that just ment it was manufactured by that company... didn't realize they had their own name to it, I thought that the actual design etc. was from one of the companies such as Buescher or Martin...

So if it's an original Elkhart Band Instrument Co horn, then where do I look up a serial number for that? (that's part of the resaon that I thought Elkhart wasn't a brand on it's own because I never found serial number listings for an Elkhart.)

Thanks Dave,

Ryan

[Pinnman]

I'm sorry; I'm missing something here, Dave. Elkhart, yes - but most/?all Elkharts were stencilled (mostly my Martin, but with some Bueschers), until the Buescher take-over in c 1928.

Are you saying anything more than that in this instance?

[Maddeaux]

OK, I knew this thing that I paid $40 for would be useful someday. I have a copy of Paul Alan Bro's Thesis entitled "The Development of the American-made Saxophone: A Study of the Saxophones Made By Buescher, Conn, Holton, Martin, and H.N. White."

This may help solve this little dilema:

"While serving as president of the Buescher Band Instrument Company, Andrew Hubble Beardsley started his own company, the Elkhart Band Instrument Company, in 1924. The Buescher Band Instrument Company purchased the Elkhart Band Instrument Company in 1928 while Beardsley served as president of both companies. Student level band instruments were manufactured under the Elkhart Band Instrument trademark until 1959. The Elkhart Band Instrument Company was known as one of the few companies that made instruments for other companies; in other words, the company manufactured "stencil" models as well as its own brand. It is not clear if this practice continued after the Buescher Band Instrument Company purchased the Elkhart Band Instrument Company."

I think that the important point here is that it proves the the Elkhart Band Instrument Company manufactured its own intruments as Dave dix suggested. It was not merely a seller of "stencils" made by Martin or some other company.

And, Martin was not the only company to ever use soldered beveled tone holes.

So to answer the original question, as Dave dix already has attempted to, OCdt TANG you most likely have an original Elkhart Band Intrument Company made sax likely built between 1924 and 1928.

No, I will not fax, email, or otherwise send a copy of this thesis to anyone. It is great reading, very informative, and can be purchased at www.il.proquest.com

CASE CLOSED...QUESTION ANSWERED...I think...I hope...

[saintsday]

I can't find the dissertation there. I tried searching the author, the title and saxophones. Help, please.

[Maddeaux]

Yes, I went and tried the link after I posted and found it to be rather tricky to get to where you can order the dissertation. If you were trying to view it you cannot do that unfortunately. You've got to order the thing.

Try this link: http://wwwlib.umi.com/dxweb/gateway it may help.

It not, follow the previous link and click on "Dissertations" under the Quick Links on the left side of the page. Then at the bottom of the next page click on "Order through Dissertation Express" and connect as an individual. That will get you to the above link. When you get to the search page type Bro in the box for the author and nothing else. You will be able to find it in the results. Or, you could type in or cut and paste the entire title and likely only get one result. Easier yet use this order number 9329742.

[Maddeaux]

The new link works.

I suppose I could have tried it before I posted it. Nah, that would of made too much sense.

[OCdt TANG]

Well that pretty much settles it then:)
Thanks a lot Maddeaux, and everyone else that posted.

Now... back to playing my sax and not studying for exams8-)

[baripenguin]

Hi Tang,

I just acquired an old Elkhart tenor sax, that is pretty much exactly the same as yours, except for the serial number, which reads as "18-27", with the LP marking. I noticed yours has the G# trill key (I've assume it's a trill key at least, on the right hand, between F and E keys) as well. I have an old "Selmer New York" alto, which I've been told was made by Conn and stenciled as Selmer, which has this; Also the palm keys have the same set up as my Selmer New York alto. Now, I know debate has mostly been closed on this issue, stating it as an original Elkhart, but was there much crossover in design between Elkhart and Conn? And does anyone know about Elkhart serial numbers?

Martin


Selmer Series II Alto
Elkhart Tenor
Keilwerth SX90 Bari

[Pinnman]

I think the answers here could be muddy. The reason I say this (and not to slag anyone off) is that the Elkhart Band Inst. Co. was founded about 1923 by the presidents of Buescher and Conn as a joint venture. In 1928, Conn sold out, leaving, presumably, the field open to the Buescher company. All this from other web sites, BTW.

My previous understanding was that some Elkharts pre-1928 were made by Martin. Now I would say, maybe ... maybe not. The question in my mind is, did the Elkhart Co. have it's own factory or were all the saxes made by the joint venture owners - i.e. Buescher and Conn - with perhaps some stencils by Martin? There was an Indiana BIC factory, but the same does not necessarily hold true for the Elkhart BIC.

The period 1923 - 28 was one of huge increases in sales ending in steep decline. The odds are that the Elkhart Co. was an attempt to cash in on the saxophone craze with low cost models, without compromising the quality and reputation of Conn and Buescher. Conn already had Pan American, so it is possible that Buescher stood more in need of this. Nonetheless, the idea of the two big rivals working together is intriguing.

The other question is whether the ownership from the Buescher end was the Buescher compny itself or the Buescher president, Beardsley. I think the same question could usefully be asked of the Conn end of the operation, too.

To me, unsubstantiated dissertations notwithstanding, there remain some very interesting loose ends to all this. The views of others on my speculative comments would be interesting.

[spiderjames]

Most martin stencils that I have seen tend to have ribbed bands joining the body and bell to the elbow and the lyre holder stands outward on a post. The tone holes on this one look like Buescher to me with the keywork looking like a blend of Buescher and Conn. If what Pinnman says is correct about the joint venture than it again would suggest an original Elkhart instrument with probably a blend of conn/buescher parts. It is not a Martin, IMO.