King Marigaux vs. Rev D: A Comparison

[Minor-Key]

By comprison between SML Gold Metal-2 Pro Model and the King Marigaux,
which is the better :?

Minor-Key

[max]

I've never actually seen a KM tenor, but from the KM soprano I used to have, and from what I've read, the only difference is whose name is stamped on the bell.

So, if you have one of each to decide between, chose the one that plays better and/or is in better condition.

[Minor-Key]

I am currently playing the KM. If there is someone who has played them both at some time or another, your thoughts would be very much appreciated :D

Thanks Max...

[mnash]

I've been lurking around the SOTW forum for awhile, and have learned a tremendous amount. Thanks, everybody. Now I feel like I'm able to make a contribution, small though it may be, so here goes. My apologies in advance for the lengthy post.

I had been playing a Selmer Series II tenor (solid sound, decent intonation, and great action) for the past dozen or so years, then recently decided to sample the vintage field, just out of curiosity. I tried, at least briefly, Conns, H Coufs (oh yeah, what great sound and action), SX 90R, Buescher 400 (great intonation!), Super 20s, Super Dynaction (very warm, fat and satisfying sound), The Martin Tenor, and liked them all, but when I picked up a King Marigaux tenor (24,xxx), I knew I was home. Another SML convert was born.

In all fairness, I didn't even touch a Mark VI. There's no way I'd be able afford even half of one (Mark III?). Even if it played as well as the SML, which I couldn't imagine, I couldn't have bought one.

Later I managed to get my hands on a Rev D tenor (14,xxx). I sold a couple of other tenors I had, but not the Marigaux, so I could afford the Rev D and get it a premium rebuild by Sarge at World Wide Sax, with oversize silver resos and Prestini goatskin pads.

The Marigaux has ok, but not great, pads, standard flat resonators, and is tweaked to play fairly well, but very likely would perform better with a complete rebuild.

I'm a weekend warrior, and gig fairly regularly, usually at least a couple times a month. I'm far from expert or pro, but no beginner either.

So, with that baseline established, this post is really intended as a comparison of the two. I'm usually playing an older (maybe vintage? hell, I don't know) Otto Link STM 6*, and depending on my mood or what I come across first in my reed/mouthpiece drawer, I'm using Vandoren ZZ 2.5, Java 3, and sometimes Rico Jazz Select 2M to 3S reeds.

One of the factors that sold me on SMLs was how smoothly they played throughout the register. Big interval jumps, like from a side D to middle G, didn't have me squawking and stumbling on the overtones as easily as as on other horns I've played. This was true on both horns. The Rev D is smoother, but this may be due to the recent rebuild - it is as tight as can be. Sarge does great work.

Altissimo is easier for me on the Marigaux than on the Rev D. At first I struggled on both, but now that I'm used to the horns I can produce altissimo fairly consistently. (By the way, the easiest and strongest altissimo I've experienced was on an H Couf).

Action on the Marigaux seems a bit more comfortable and quicker than the Rev D, in my opinion (or in my hands, I should say). The Marigaux has concave pearls, so the "grip" on the keys seems a bit more secure than with the rounded pearls on the Rev D. The alt F# seemed kind of far away on the Marigaux, but Sarge was able to take care of that pretty quick simply by bending it a bit ("you might not want to watch this", he told me). I think both the H Couf and the Selmer have better, lighter, quicker action, and they both boast a high F# to boot. I can live without it, and the more I play the less awkward the SMLs feel. I think with a rebuild, the Marigaux would probably really fly and probably outperform the Rev D as far as action is concerned.

Intonation on both horns beats anything else I've ever played. I simply don't have to worry about it anymore, so I can concentrate on other aspects of my playing. This feature alone has improved my playing immeasurably. I didn't realize how much I had been fighting to maintain intonation until I tried SML horns. The hardest part was to break the habit of continually adjusting embouchure for different notes. A consistent embouchure yields consistent results - what a concept! I've found that the Marigaux has slightly better intonation than the Rev D. Jumping octaves on, say, C or G, I find that it usually is within 2 or 3 cents, and this is true all the way up to the top of the horn. Wow. The Rev D is consistently within 5 cents, which still beats the heck out of anything else I've played. The high front F is a tad flat on both, but I can compensate for that. (on the Selmer, the front high F & F# were dead on, the rest of the horn was just ok. With the H Couf, I had real intonation problems).

Without all the embouchure contortions, my overall sound is much better.

And that is what it is all about - sound. These horns both have no "thin" spots, a nice fat tone all the way up and down, and especially in the low end do they roar! Whisper to shout, with a good air stream they have a great jazzy tone with the Otto Link. I've also used Bergs and RPC mouthpieces, and can rock with the rest of them, though of course I wish I had a big ol' volume knob like the guitar players I occasionally have to compete - er, I mean, get to play, with.

The Rev D is definitely darker, with less edge than the Marigaux. I think it's a bit fatter, especially in the bottom, though again that may be partly due to the rebuild with the high-end resos. With the right mouthpiece, it can give as much edge as you want. A huge, solid, warm, yet versatile sound.

The Marigaux sound is maybe more suited to the funk/blues/rock spectrum than the Rev D, though I don't want to say the Rev D isn't up to the task. The Marigaux has a bit more edge with the same mouthpiece, and as I mentioned it pops out the altissimo a bit easier, and I find its action a little more crisp than the Rev D. A little thinner (more focused?) than the Rev D, but still a great big sound, also very capable and versatile, and it can be fattened up with the right mouthpiece.

Bottom line - both great horns, each with phenomonal intonation, decent action, unbeatable great big sound, and very versatile. My intention was to decide which I like better, and to unload the other. Looks isn't a factor, since they are both ugly beasts. Turns out I can't decide, and so for now I'm keeping both. I'm saving pennies to get the Marigaux rebuilt next, then another comparison might be in order.

Another factor bearing comparison, and one that has nothing to do with chops, is value. Based on what I've seen on the forum and Ebay over the last few months, you can get a Marigaux for much less than a Rev D. It is no doubt a collector thing. If I could only pick one, and had limited funds, I would say that there is no shame in settling on a Marigaux - based on what I've got, in my opinion it is a great horn, in many ways the equal of the Rev D, and in some respects slightly, though only by a little bit, better.

However, in debating whether to spring for a rebuild for the Marigaux, I have to admit that I probably couldn't sell it and recover close to what I put into it. The Rev D, with it's SML logo, rolled tone holes, adjustable bell felts, engraved pants guard, blah blah blah, just attracts a higher price. In my experience, though, it doesn't necessarily play $800 or $1000 better than the Marigaux.

Hope this information proves useful to somebody. Of course, this is all purely subjective, and only by playing something can you tell if it works for you (your standard disclaimer).

Once again, my apologies for the excessive verbage, I just can't seem to grasp the concept of brevity.
mnash

[McTenor]

Great !!!! :| :|
As a new SML owner (never played one - my horn is on its way from Switzerland) I am very interested in all informations about this saxes.
Thanks
McTenor

[mnash]

You're in for a treat, McTenor!

[mnash]

Oh, yeah, and another thing - middle D. When I first picked up the Marigaux I was struck by how strong and un-stuffy the middle D was, at least compared to most horns I've played. Not as full as the C below it or the E above, but still better than many other horns.

In my ear and chops the middle D on the Rev D is kind of stuffy, and relative to the register about like most other horns. I think the Marigaux has a stronger, though still not perfect, middle D.

That being said, a slightly weak note on the Rev D is still a better sound than most other horns I've tried.

Again, just my ear and opinion, and not necessarily true for other horns and players.

[WhisprnJohn]

Hi Mnash-
Nice to see another northwest guy. I live in Mt.Vernon. I bought an early Gold Medal tenor recently to replace a stolen Mk IV. Fantastic horns, both of them, with their own strengths and weaknesses. The SML LH palm keys and pinky table took a bit of getting used to, but what a robust sound! Almost too robust sometimes for small combo work. I am thinking of having Sarge do a premium rebuild on mine soon, and my question to you is what were the pads and resos on yours like before the rebuild, and do you think oversize resos and roo pads made any difference to your sound? Any other before/after observations?

[mnash]

Hello, whispernjohn -

The pads and resonators on the Rev D before the rebuild were basically junk. It looks like somebody went as cheap as they could about 10 years ago, and many of the pads were all warped and wrinkled. The resonators were plastic. So, my "before" observations have to be weighed with that in mind.

Before the rebuild, the sound was still rich and strong, for the notes that didn't leak, that is. My understanding is that the pads don't really make much difference in sound, as long as they seat well, but that the higher quality (i.e., more $$) don't stick as much. By the way, I ended up with goatskin pads, not kangaroo. After the rebuild, the sound was definitely louder and, hell, I don't know, rounder?? More full, resonant, and generally really cool and kick-butt! I can only speculate on how much improvement was due to having everything seat right and adjusted well versus the size and material of the resonators. I got the step-up Resotech resos, but not the huge over-sized ones. Anyway, I'm really happy with it, and the more I play it, the happier I get. And, the more I compare it to the Marigaux, the more I like the Rev D sound.

On an unrelated note - I believe I've sat in your seat in a couple of bands after you've moved on - SOS, TwiFi? I've heard your recordings with TwiFi, was that with the GM or the Selmer? Great sound, and great playing! I couldn't commit the time to TwiFi. I'm sure the other band members share my regrets that my playing couldn't quite fill your shoes, though those guys were great fun to play with while it lasted. Playing with SOS last weekend at an outdoor festival we had a kind of melt-down on stage with the conga player and bass player nearly going pugilistic at each other. Several choice epithets were picked up by the mics and broadcast loud and clear to the audience. What a nighmare. The end of SOS, I'm afraid, at least for now. Too bad, I think we were getting pretty good.

Mnash

[WhisprnJohn]

Yep, I'm the guy. Too bad about SOS, but give it awhile and I'll bet they'll regroup. Thanks for the info on your rebuild. Sometime we should get together and compare horns. These SMLs are worth digging into, for sure. It took me awhile to become comfortable with the horn, and I think I'm going to have Sarge address some ergonomic issues this summer. At first I thought there were some intonation issues with the horn, but as I've spent more time with it I realize it was my old horn's problems that I was dealing with and now I am unlearning some embouchure quirks. Not easy, after 20 years with the same horn!

[mnash]

Hey, WhisprnJohn, I sent you a PM.
mnash

[mnash]

I'm sure a lucky fellow. First I stumble on these two great horns at fairly good bargains, then I get to meet WhisprnJohn, blow some licks on his Gold Medal, and then we both went and sat in with a little combo later that evening. What a blast. John is a helluva nice guy, and twice the player I could ever hope to be. We had three tenors going at once a couple times in that little club, maybe a bit over the top, but what fun it was. By the way, the other guy, also a great player, had a Yamaha, I'm not sure which kind. I thought John's Gold Medal blew it away.

John also noodled around on my King Marigaux and Rev D. Interesting to hear them from the other side of the horn. First, after hearing John play, any thoughts I had about some of my weak spots and limitations being due to the horn(s) were completely dispelled. They both sounded great top to bottom.

Second, I thought the King Marigaux sounded noticeably bolder and bigger than the Rev D. The Rev D has its own strengths, a smoother, prettier, more refined, and still very big strong sound, but when it's time to stand out front and really blow, the Marigaux is the one I'll reach for.

Third, to me his Gold Medal sounded closer to the Marigaux than to the Rev D, even though it was only a few hundred SNs later than the Rev D, and several thousand before the Marigaux. Hmmm.... His GM has great action, too, nice and snappy, kind of like the Marigaux.

Anyway, it was a treat to compare the three horns from different SML eras, and to meet and jam with WhisprnJohn.

[Pete]

They're the same horn.

[choochoo]

Great !!!! :| :|
As a new SML owner (never played one - my horn is on its way from Switzerland) I am very interested in all informations about this saxes.
Thanks
McTenor

check it out: http://saxpics.com/?v=man&manID=19