hard versus soft reeds: soundwise

[cazzz]

I had been playing soft reeds for years and felt somehow inferior because of it. Then I put all my energy into it and played harder and harder reeds. When I got to 3 1/2, I noticed that I was no longer able to play the lowest notes on my alto. What a nuisance.

To cut a long story short, when it felt better to play my very, very cheap and quite old student Yamaha than my not so cheap and not so old Selmer, I turned back to playing the softest reeds on my Alto also.

I have been playing Otto Link Number 8 on Alto and Otto Link Number 7 on my Tenor for some time now. Both ToneEdge rubber. I prefer the sound and feel of the softest reeds on those mouthpieces. Harder reeds tend to produce more "noise". I heard a graduate from a Jazz School lately and I thought, he must be playing quite a hard reed, which I wouldn't play myself because of its sound.

Am I just to lazy to work my way up again to a harder reed, or is it a logical choice to play softer reeds? I know that higher notes (and probably altissimo) are more difficult with soft reeds.

[Dave Dolson]

Cazzz: Welcome to SOTW. The issues surrounding reed strengths are HUGE in number, yet difficult to resolve. I think much of a player's reed selection has to do with 1) the player's own, personal embouchure (meaning reed strength is not a test of manliness, it is a circumstance of how the player is built); 2) the mouthpiece's design including tip-opening, interior, and quality of build; 3) the quality of the rteed itself - one #2 may play great, the next #2 from the same box may play poorly.

I've been playing for 50+ years and have chosen to use open mouthpieces with soft reeds. I can put out as much volume as the narrow-tip/hard reed crowd, play softly, if necessary or peel paint off the walls if required, all with tonal warmth (at least that's how others have described my sound to me, over time).

I don't think anyone NEEDS to work themselves up to harder reeds just for bragging rights. Do so only if a softer reed doesn't allow to you to play the full range of your instrument or you discover some other difficiency in your playing that a reed change may improve. DAVE

[swid441]

I've been playing for years on a nice size two reed on my jazz piece. Only a .08 opening. I too tried the 'hard reed thing' and just found myself running out of gas! For me, the test is whether or not I can get my altissimo notes without the reed closing off on me. I even will use a 1.5 at times on my jazz piece. I do use a 2.5 on my classical piece. (Rousseau 4R).

[maestroelite]

Depending on the mouthpiece and my chops, I've used anything from a 2 to a 4 reed and everything in between. There's no shame in playing soft reeds if you're getting a solid tone.

[milandro]

I am very happy to read this kind of posts because I always felt somewhat inadequate with the fact that I wasn't playing very open mpcs or very thick reeds like some " old beginners" do.
Indeed one day I was in a shop and there was this cat advising a gal about reed strength and he was saying, " Me.... I don't even notice very thick reeds anymore , i'd play even iron bars:? I'm so used to the hard game....8-) ".

I am more than happy with my mouthpieces and reeds for the time being and will only go from one strength to another when needed which I've done already with my tenor (while with the alt I am actually working through a more open piece leaving the reeds alone for the time being).

Michael Brecker, one of the greatest of all times who is probably the most influential modern saxophone player in modern times, used middle sized mouthpieces and reeds.

This is not a show-off of virility, it is about plaing the damn horn to the outmost not about how thick your reeds are or how open your piece is.
It is not about how thick it is, it's about how you play with it:twisted:

[Wailin']

Might I also add that Brecker played a 2 1/2 reed.

[hakukani]

I've played long enough that I've gone from closed to open to closed to open; from soft to hard (5). I've gone from not working on reeds, to tweaking every reed, back to not working on reeds, to working minimally on reeds.

Like everything else in life, it's a search to get the result you have in your mind, and there are compromises that get you there. If you don't get obsessive about these choices, you happily find your way.

<gets off soapbox>

[Swingin' Cat]

Play what works for you and the venues that you play. Don't worry about what other people play.

[madlee]

I thought the idea was smaller opening, harder reed, larger opening, softer reed.

but the truth is, whatever works for you, works for you.

[dirty]

I thought the idea was smaller opening, harder reed, larger opening, softer reed.
Yeah, but, in my experience, a harder reed will generally yield a "purer" tone, with less buzz and more focus, while a softer reed tends to have a buzzier, fuzzier, more spread kind of sound.

I'm a soft reed, (reasonably) open tip kind of guy, myself.

[heath]

A harder reed for me is insurance the reed isn't going to clamp shut when playing altissimo.

As far as tone goes. It's a toss up, but needless to say many of the best players have used hard and not so hard reeds.

One thing about going up in hardness that can help is to cycle your reeds. Use a stiff reed for your scales, overtones, altissimo, long tones and then take that reed off and use a slightly softer reed for practicing music. This way you can always have a reed handy for playing and you'll always be working on a harder reed as well so you won't lose any strenght.

So right now I'm using a 3H RJS for my warmups and than a 3M RJS for playing and performing. There's a little difference between these two as the 3H is pretty tough for me to blow for hours on end without getting sloppy.

[cazzz]

Yeah, but, in my experience, a harder reed will generally yield a "purer" tone, with less buzz and more focus, while a softer reed tends to have a buzzier, fuzzier, more spread kind of sound.

I'm a soft reed, (reasonably) open tip kind of guy, myself.

Is this really so? In my opinion and poor experience it is the other way round: harder reeds sound more buzzier and fuzzier. But I think I can put the buzz in by changing my embouchure, trying to sound more like coleman hawkins.

[dirty]

Is this really so? In my opinion and poor experience it is the other way round: harder reeds sound more buzzier and fuzzier. But I think I can put the buzz in by changing my embouchure, trying to sound more like coleman hawkins.
Like I said, that's been my experience. Yours may be diferent.

[retread]

For what it's worth, my experience matches dirty's.

[cazzz]

I understand that. I was just wondering if there isn't a general theory behind that which could explain what direction sound goes with harder reeds. But maybe there are other factors quite as important which I am not aware of. But retread is backing your side, so I guess you are closer to it than I am. On the other side you are playing a quite similar setup to me, so I guess I am on a good way;-)

PS: Maybe it was a stupid question... I had just been listening to a jazz podcast claiming that anything below a 2 1/2 is a waste of time... He knew he was being provocative, but didn't clearly state the pros and cons of soft and hard reeds. And I am prone to think and ask a lot

[Swingin' Cat]

The Ernest Ferron book, "The Saxophone is My Voice", goes into a little bit of detail about the difference in the sound waves produced by soft vs. hard reeds. I haven't looked at it in a couple of years, but from what I recall, he said that a softer reed tends to favor the fundamental pitch, meaning there are less overtones in the sound. As reed strength gets harder, more overtones and harmonics are introduced, I assume because it takes a faster, better supported airstream to induce a hard reed to vibrate and to keep it vibrating. In turn, because a stiffer (harder) reed has more strength to rebound (vibrate) back and forth, it vibrates faster, producing sound waves of a faster frequency.

A lot of this is just plain old common sense.

So, while I wouldn't say that a hard reed is "buzzier" than a soft reed, I would say that a hard reed produces a more "complex" sound, and one that carries (or projects) farther, due to the increased higher overtones that are mixed in. Which is why most single-reed player tend to prefer harder reeds when playing in a big, acoustically dead auditorium filled with people (my normal playing situation).

If I remember right, Ferron made the point that with a softer reed, the idiosyncracies of the horn itself tend to have more influence over the final sound than the reed. And as reed strength increases, so does the influence of the reed over the sound. Which made me think of Stan Getz's famous quote about his playing harder reeds in order to "take the reed out of the sound." I know what he meant, but in fact, he was doing just the opposite.

[jacobeid]

I always feel like I can use a harder reed on tenor than on alto or soprano.

On tenor with my springer mouthpiece I can use La Voz medium hards and hards well. On alto on anywhere from a .075-.078 opening I use a la voz medium or RJS 2H. On soprano I use the softest with a .058 opening and RJS 2Ms.

[cazzz]

Thanks to all so far. I got good input. I like my sound with the soft reeds (like some others), I am not totally satisfied with my swing articulation (attack, dynamics), but sometimes I think I have unrealistic goals. I go between loving my music and hating it, this can switch in hours. But this is like I am;-)

[madlee]

this site aims to explain the physics involved..

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/saxacoustics.html

[Jonathan C.]

STYLE



As I belive is stated above it is not a pride thing. I am more manily than him, he is playing on a 2, and I am playing on a 5. The people that you play for, don't care what size reed you play on, they hear the sound and if you sound good, they will appreaciate the sound. The reed is a means to an end. And as stated before you can't care what the other persons reed size is, or what they think of your reed size.

Pick the reed size that works with you and Jam.


Carbs

[Radjammin]

Hard reeds are good to learn on, Soft reeds are good play music on....

Just know the softer reed will probably need to be replaced more often. I say this when I usually play on a reed for several months before morning it's loss and placing it respectfully into the trash can.

To the legit side, a harder reed is going to sound a lot better on a close tip.

Last point, Know your venue. If your playing second sax in concert band, lower your reed strengh. First, raise it. Solo legit venue, raise it. Big Band, lower it and open the tip. Marching, then Volume = #1 open tip lower reed. I think this just shows each of us has a prioroty and knowing what is important to you is reflective in your reed strenght choice. I personally think what the point of a great tone if no one can hear it.

[cazzz]

Thanks madlee for the informative link. Reed Hardness is described in the clarinet section:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/clarinetacoustics.html#reeds
So I am still trying to understand it, will take me some time. Maybe it is an unnecessary task, but I am somehow interested in theory:) (Main point I guess is: the hard reed plays sharper.)

[cazzz]

First I realised that the mouthpiece makes a big difference. So I tried out some mouthpieces and stuck with a Otto Link 6. Then I developed the wish to play hard(er) reeds and went up to a 3 1/2. After some time I realised my low notes weren't coming as I wished, so I downgraded to a 2 or 2 1/2. Then another purchase of some mouthpieces, I bought a Otto Link 8. And after some time I went back to reeds of strenghts 1 1/2 and even La Voz soft. (All this on my Alto.) Now I bought a Selmer SA II Bariton with a used Berg Larson Gold 105 2 and am playing 2 1/2 and harder reeds again.

I finally realised that it is the package of mouthpiece size times reed strength which gives a constant. If I want to play harder reeds, I have to step back to smaller mouthpieces. (Or do some serious embuchoure "weightlifting".) So I am switching on my alto between a Beechler M6L (which I got as a gift around ten years ago) with 2 1/2 and my Otto Link 8 with 1 1/2. I forget about the even bigger OLs (a 9* and maybe even a 10 somewhere) for the moment and keep them in "stock" for some unforseen future.

Somehow I like experimenting again. Although I don't want to "waste" too much time on switching between mouthpieces. It seems to be a balance of spending time with choosing tools and spending time on actually practising:)

[DXCamp]

My experience with reed strengths is that the softer reeds tend to not last as long as the harder reeds. Depending on stage of embouchre development and mouthpiece, there should not be much of a noticable difference in sound quality between harder or softer reeds. The softer reeds do tend to be "thinner" sounding. Currently I'm using a #2 plasticover reed because a local professional handed me one to try but may go to a 2 1/2, or #3, soon. Not bad. 8-)

[nitrosax]

Everybody uses Brecker for an example of playing soft reeds but remember his mouthpiece was very open...I think at least .114--.120 And then on the other hand, Stan Getz supposedly played 4's....His mouthpiece was again much more closed than Breckers and you could hear the difference in a thick reed and a softer reed setup in comparing those two cat's sound...
The variables are 1) reed companies strength systems are all different; i.e. a 4 in one company is a 3 in another...(Guardala reeds come to mind...those tenor 4's play like Rico 3's) 2.) mouthpiece tip opening and baffle height....
Coleman Hawkins may have played 4's but remember back in the day the norm on tenor tip openings was much smaller than todays standards...many players didn't even break over .100 on their tenor pieces...and a 1950 Rico 4 is probably equivalent to a 2007 Rico 3...That is how different the strength systems are...

Cheers