Vintage horns and mouthpieces

[Stencilman]

I've read it so many times that vintage horns require large chamber mouthpieces or they will never play in tune. Right now, I am trying a Dukoff D6 on my newly overhauled 1926 Martin Handcraft soprano and the tuning is not that bad, just a couple of notes are sharp (A and F). I think I might be able to pull these notes in by adjusting key heights.

So, anybody out there actually using a modern mouthpiece on a vintage horn with success? If not, what are the problems with a modern mouthpiece on a vintage horn (e.g. high notes flat, low notes sharp)?

TIA!

[Dave Dolson]

Stencilman: I use modern mouthpieces on my vintage and modern saxophones, as follows

Soprano (2 Buescher TTs, 1923 Conn, Yana S992, SC902, SC901)

Selmer Super Session, Selmer S80s, metal Link, Jody Jazz

Alto (Buescher TT, Conn Chu, Selmer Cigar Cutter, Yana A992)

Selmer Soloist - new, Meyer, Barone

All those pieces play well on all of those horns - for me. My soprano Super Sessions and alto Soloists are my first choices for sop and alto. DAVE

[paulwl]

Modern mpcs that work on vintage horns...work on vintage horns. They don't all work, which keeps the myth alive that there is some universal acoustic mismatch.

I think the real issue is a difference of style and stylistic convictions. Until recently, vintage saxophones were used by people who wanted to "opt out" of everything modern about sax playing. These were classical players, with little interest in jazz, and their experience with modern mpcs and horns was mostly displeasing to them. So their mind's ear was already prone not to like brighter tone or too "easy" volume.

They also were largely academic players, so they needed to defend their choice against criticism. The acoustics theory served well for this, because it was partly true: some modern mpcs really don't work with older horns. Their desire for a more "orchestral" tone quality was another argument in their favor.

Eventually -- I think the internet era had something to do with it, and also the trend to explore earlier styles in jazz -- the word got out that the older saxophones were viable for many different styles of music, and similarly, that many different mouthpieces could be used in the search for individual tonal character.

There is some pre-existing prejudice in the other direction. I used to think it was an angry or reactionary move against the use of vintage equipment in "new" and different ways, but I now think it is just a specialist's lack of understanding or "ear" for different styles. Only natural, really.

[paulwl]

Modern mpcs that work on vintage horns...work on vintage horns. They don't all work, which keeps the myth alive that there is some universal acoustic mismatch.

I think the real issue is a difference of style and stylistic cnnvictions. Until recently, vintage saxophones were used by people who wanted to "opt out" of everything modern about sax playing. These were classical players, with little interest in jazz, and their experience with modern mpcs and horns was mostly displeasing to them. So their mind's ear was already prone not to like brighter tone or too "easy" volume.

They also were largely academic players, so they needed to defend their choice against criticism. The acoustics theory served well for this, because it was partly true: some modern mpcs really don't work with older horns. Their desire for a more "orchestral" tone quality was another argument in their favor.

Eventually -- I think the internet era had something to do with it, and also the trend to explore earlier styles in jazz -- the word got out that the older saxophones were viable for many different styles of music, and similarly, that many different mouthpieces could be used in the search for individual tonal character.

There is some pre-existing prejudice in the other direction. I used to think it was an angry or reactionary move against the use of vintage equipment in "new" and different ways, but I now think it is just a specialist's lack of understanding or "ear" for different styles. Only natural, really.

[Roger Aldridge]

There are accoustical considerations to take into account regarding mouthpieces.

I'd like to use a vintage Buescher True Tone as an example. It was designed to play in tune with a mouthpiece having particular specifications regarding length and the amount of chamber volume. Common sense tells me that if I use a mouthpiece on this True Tone that has a length/chamber volume that's significantly different from the mouthpiece specs used in the saxophone's design I stand a good chance of having intonation problems.

But, this doesn't mean that we are limited to only using vintage mouthpieces! It's possible to find a selection of modern mouthpieces that are a resonable match for a True Tone and can play very well on it. Thus, it's a matter of trying out a number of mouthpieces for yourself and finding those that work for your horn, for you as a player, and for the styles of music you play.

The accustical considerations I mentioned at the beginning of my message aren't simply urban legend or myth. The mouthpiece is an essential part of the science that goes into the design of a saxophone. I've had both terrible and excellent results using modern mouthpieces on my vintage saxes. I've found that the intonation can completely suck with one mouthpiece and be right on the mark with another piece on the same horn. How can this be? It has nothing to do with the horn. It's all about the characteristics of the mouthpiece.

Just so you know, I only use modern mouthpieces on my vintage horns. I get really good results with Ralph Morgan's mouthpieces.

[max]

Not to be Mr. Impatient, but can I point you to a similar topic?
http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=761

I'm afraid I may just be SOL, but I'd like to get your opinions...

Thanks (and sorry...)

[frankbiff]

I am teching my son to play using a 1929 Conn New Wonder Alto (aka Chu). Both a Selmer Goldentone and a Rico Graphtonite play in tune, but wiht different positions on the neck tuner, Goldentone almost all the way in, Rico almost all the way out. Also, I use both a vintage mpc and a Rico on my 1926 Conn Sop, the Rico playes better.

I also have a Martin Handcraft tenor stencile from the 1930's, I use the same mpcs as on my MKVI with no problems.

[rrex54]

Stencilman, let me echo general agreement with with Paulwl and RA and expand on the $0.02 I anted up in the Martin thread. I have a Pan Am curved sop -- buff and relac with lotsa wear -- that defies all the carping about intonation problems with early curved sops. While the only piece that produces a sound *I* truly like it a vintage Conn Eagle, it has played very well in tune (yes, against a tuner) with a modern Meyer 9M (with which it will also peel paint and wallpaper), a Rico Metalite M7, a Runyon Custom 6, and (according to my tech) a modern Selmer C*.

I'm sure there will be pieces that will not be compatible with your horn -- like many early Bueschers that can have some problems with small chamber pieces. However, it will not be strictly a vintage v. modern -- nor, if my experience with the Pan Am is any measure, a large v. small chamber issue, but some combination of chamber size, baffle, etc.

I think that preferences on sop sounds are very strong and personal -- so try as many as you can until you find not only something that plays in tune, but something you like.

BTW my Meyer and Runyon mpcs found new homes with a player who loves them on his Buescher curved stencil.

[Grumps]

I have a five digit Buescher TT curved soprano that had slight intonation problems with a variety of large chambered, vintage mouthpieces. It's now spot on with a Selmer Super Session and projects much better. I also have a Selmer Metal Classic for my Mark VI soprano which also played well on my TT.

On the other hand, I have a Conn New Wonder baritone which rejects modern mouthpieces like a bad liver transplant. Fat, large and old is the only way to go with this beast.

[retread]

I have a 1936 10M. My favorite mouthpieces are a Tenney HR Link and a Tenney Steve Broadus, but it also plays in tune with a Steel Berg 100/2, a new Hite 128, and a Jody Jazz. Just a matter of what sound you want.