Bassoonist learning Bari Sax

[Johnmcd]

Hi everyone,

I'm a pro Bassoonist of 25 years, and have just started learning the Bari Sax, as a bit of an experiment to see if it helps getting more work (having noticed that any shows that start up now in London and have a Bassoon part at all, use doubling or trebling players). I'm planning to get hold of a Bass Clarinet too, but for now I'm concentrating on one instrument at a time.

Does anyone have any advice about a suitable style of mouthpiece that would be good for a double reeder like myself to move from Bassoon to the, in comparison, huge mouthful of the Bari Sax mpc? It's not so much the size of the outer dimensions of the mpc I'm worried about (my 1937 York [low Bb] has a Selmer mpc with it - don't know what number), it's the cavernous feel of the inside chamber. I feel the need for a more streamlined shape inside the piece.

I'm sure that the basic thing is that I'll just have to get used to the difference in feel between the blowing of the two instruments, but any thoughts would be appreciated.

One other thing, and this maybe to do with the way I produce vibrato on the Bassoon, but all the notes on my Bari from 1st 8ve 'F' up to 'C' growl and fly around badly when trying to vibrate on them. Is this reeds that are too soft, incompatible mpc, or my poor blowing technique? 2nd 8ve is fine.

Cheers for now.

John. :bass:

[bpimentel]

Hi John,

I always recommend Vandoren mouthpieces as reliable and easy to play (good for a doubler!). Their "Optimum" series is especially fine. Saxophone mouthpieces by Rousseau and Selmer are also popular choices--I have used both in the past myself. It's likely that much of the bari stuff in shows will be jazz-oriented, so an argument could be made for a "jazz" mouthpiece once you've gotten more comfortable with the instrument.

A baritone saxophone mouthpiece will definitely feel "cavernous" compared to a bassoon reed. I would recommend picking out a good mouthpiece of fairly standard proportions and spending a little more time getting used to it, rather than trying to find something that feels more bassoon-like. If it feels bassoon-like, it probably won't sound saxophone-like!

Bassoonists typically use the so-called "diaphragm" vibrato. Saxophonists most often use a jaw vibrato. You can doubtless find plenty of advice here on the SOTW boards; in a nutshell, it's a very subtle jaw motion, sort of like saying "vah-vah-vah."

Good low reed players are valuable to have around. Good luck!
Bret

[Johnmcd]

Thanks Bret,
I'll stick at it. Regarding the vibrato though, I'm finding that with 1st 8ve 'G' and up, even with a jaw vib, the notes crack and break up somehow, which is what makes me wonder if it's the soft reeds? I'm trying #2.5s at the moment and when I start on one it's usually fine, but after a couple of minutes of blowing, the tone is less round and the notes are cracking like I described. If I blow without vib it's OK, but there's not much leaway of pitch on those notes.
Any further thoughts anyone? Should I be using harder reeds?
J.

[SOTSDO]

I feel for anyone making the move from bassoon to the rest of the world of woodwinds, much less a baritone sax...

You are right in your choices of baritone and bass clarinet. In the last three years, I have done shows that use precisely that instrumentation, and it looks like the bassoon is returning to Broadway with a vengeance. No harm in positioning yourself accordingly.

As stated above, no matter what you do with a baritone, it's going to feel like you are blowing into an inflatable swimming pool - endless amounts of air will pass through your lungs with very little to show for it.

The trick is to realize that the bassoon along with the oboe and the English horn, are in their own class as far as woodwinds are concerned. Put them on a continum and they'd be way over on the "resistance" end, with only the flute and bass saxophone beyond the baritone on the "no resistance" end.

In the end, the best approach to take is to recognize that you're not in Bassoonland any longer, and "change" your methods. Just as I know I have to concentrate on breath discipline when playing the bassoon (and, at times, exhaling and inhaling again to keep oxygen levels on the plus side is the major issue), you have to realize that you will be moving a lot more air through the baritone.

Something to try when not playing is to get your "accessory muscles of respiration" working in your favor. Most folks breath exclusively from their diaphragm, and it works just fine for "normal" breathing. If you learn to breath with the accessory muscles (they are the human equivalent to flank steak on a cow, if that helps), this by "expanding" your chest, you will increase your capacity accordingly. When you breath, concentrate on moving your chest walls outward instead of breathing with your "gut". (Hold your diaphragm rigid when you do this.) You can work on this anytime you have a few moments, and after a month or so you should be able to deal with more volume.

As for the mouthpiece and reed issue, that's something that you will need to work through on your own. I do know that I have shifted from relatively tight clarinet and sax mouthpieces to more open ones (a G lay Selmer mouthpiece on my bass clarinet, and a very open Berg Larsen metal mouthpiece on baritone), and far softer reeds that were the norm during my clarinet only days.

Before the change, my sax vibrato was a pathetic; after the change it was mellow and smooth. The change on bass clarinet was a bit more problematic, but it's much better now. I've also loosened up the reed strength on my soprano clarinets, but have retained the same 1930's era HS* Selmer mouthpiece or its equivalent.

Now, if you could just tell me how to swap bassoon (played with a seat strap) for baritone in two bars of up-tempo 4/4 time, all without dropping a horn or breaking the bassoon reed, I would be indebted to you for the advice. (This is in a production of Crazy For You that I'm currently meshed into.)

[hakukani]

(This is in a production of Crazy For You that I'm currently meshed into.)

Is this the modern version of the show that has 'I Got Rhythm' as a production number to end the first act? I don't think Coltrane ever played that many choruses!--not to mention the chorus played by the tire pump, and the tap dancers on the tin roof.:D

Anyway, that's a tough book! (At least you get to rest during the extended comic scene "Bela, Bela, Bela...")

[odsum25]

Is this the modern version of the show that has 'I Got Rhythm' as a production number to end the first act? I don't think Coltrane ever played that many choruses!--not to mention the chorus played by the tire pump, and the tap dancers on the tin roof.:D

Anyway, that's a tough book! (At least you get to rest during the extended comic scene "Bela, Bela, Bela...")

Despite the great music, I hate that show. It just seems like they were reaching too much when trying to pull together the Girl Crazy story without all the less than PC parts in the original. I've played it twice and it is a tough book. I do tend to question the couple of points that have two piccolos and the upper range of soprano sax going at the same time.

It feels like I Got Rhythm feels like it's longer than the rest of the show combined.

[hakukani]

The dance during the 'slappa dat bass' number is killer. The girls hold strings like they're basses while the male dancers hold and tilt them back and forth. (Sound guys actually see the show.)

[SOTSDO]

This is an engraved version rather than manuscript, and my book is exclusively bassoon, baritone and bass clarinet (no clarinet or flute). The dance numbers are what the show is all about, and the group doing the production allegedly has a very strong corps d'ballet (which I have yet to see, mind you). So, it should be worth the hassle of playing the bundle of sticks.

The wild stuff up in the upper registers is (thankfully) someone else's problem. I think that we are going with one less than the nominal number of books (I think it's the never popular oboe/English horn/tenor one), but otherwise it's a full boat operation (with a large number of strings, even).

Other than having to get back in shape on the bassoon (which is never much fun, but I am the better person for it), the most irritating thing about the show is the bizarre concept of the arranger regarding horn changes. Clarinet to alto you can manage in a couple of bars, but not bassoon to baritone, no way, no how.

But, that's why they pay the big bucks...

Incidentally, that accessory muscles of respiration stuff is also taught to hockey players, who have to move more volume of air though their lungs that even the best of flute players. It does make a difference once you get used to using the muscle set (which is seldom fully used by normal people).

[odsum25]

[QUOTE=SOTSDO]This is an engraved version rather than manuscript, and my book is exclusively bassoon, baritone and bass clarinet (no clarinet or flute). The dance numbers are what the show is all about, and the group doing the production allegedly has a very strong corps d'ballet (which I have yet to see, mind you). So, it should be worth the hassle of playing the bundle of sticks.
QUOTE]

I played off of the engraved version both times, once with my old high school and once with a community theater. We cut up parts when I was in high school because it was a mostly student pit, without a lot of doublers. (I believe Qwerty subbed on the book you're playing for one show, but played bassoon on bari. That time I had just clarinet, soprano, alto, and a little tenor the way we divided the parts.

The second time I had whichever book(Reed II?) which was just lead clarinet and lead alto and a little flute too. I don't really remember, so that might be a little off. The one thing I do remember from that second time is forgetting to come in on the short alto solo in the Overture on one performance and being kicked by my neighbor several beats in. I got the message and recovered for the last couple of notes.

[SOTSDO]

In conjunction with the above, here is my botched saxophone solo story:

Once upon a time, about ten year's time back, I was playing bass clarinet for one of the excellent community orchestras here in the Greater Houston area, this in a town called Lake Jackson TX. They have a very active arts and theater program there, and an orchestra that is much better than might be expected.

On the next program was the Gershwin piece American In Paris, of particular interest to bass clarinet players because of the two solo parts that it offers.

As they had no one locally to cover the sax parts, I told them that I would bring in a couple of my folks from up in the Houston area. The plan was that I would cover the vital baritone stuff and do the rest on bass, while the two others would cover the alto and tenor parts throughout.

One of my friends made three of the rehearsals, and was all set to play the alto part. The other had a family emergency the week before and had to back out. So, we turned to this technically superior but rather mechanical sax player that we both knew to come and cover the tenor part.

(Her skills were more than adequate, and the tenor part is sort of just there for the harmony as much as anything else.)

There was one rehearsal remaining (which the tenor player missed, even though it was promised that she would be there without fail), and then came the concert. The tenor player shows up [u]with only her alto[/i], announcing that she had only practiced the alto part! (The music was sent out as a unit, but each part was clearly labeled with the player's name.)

Luckily, the local college (where we were performing) had a tenor and a few reeds available. So, my friend Jim gets things lined up, runs through the tenor part a few times in a practice room with myself and the "new" alto player, and we are ready to go.

I played in a couple of the numbers in the first half of the concert, then after the intermission was joined by the other two, all of us carrying our shiny saxes out on the stand. We start in on American In Paris, I milk the hell out of the first bass clarinet solo, and then we enter into the main saxophonic portions of the piece.

There is one spot where the orchestra builds to a climax, following which the three saxes enter in succession, all playing portions of a descending jazzy riff that drops things back down for the home stretch.

I am sitting on a upper riser, behind the alto player and to the one side of the tenor player who is also below. We are waiting through the orchestral buildup, and I am slightly distressed to see that the alto player did not have her horn at the ready. But, I am too far away to kick her and alert her to the oncoming train wreck.

The inevitable result happens; the rest of the orchestra falls away, leaving a magnificent two bars of silence, all the while the alto player is sitting there like a gargoyle. As the three parts are interrelated and syncopated to boot, the tenor player has a rough two notes before he recovers, following which I join in to complete the section.

During the whole thing, the alto player never even stirred in her seat.

We got through the rest of the piece without any problems (with my second bass clarinet solo being even more spectacularly throbbing and emotive than the first), and she had to leave the stage after that one number (the rest not calling for saxophone at all.

But at the reception afterwards we had to grit our teeth when overhearing the alto player's parents and grandparents (she was a college student at the time) rave about how well she played...

[Woodwind guy]

Hi!
Having done the same thing myself, I know how you feel.
What I can say is that, at least for me, metal mouthpieces feel a lot better than plastic ones, as they suit the smaller bassoon embouchure better.
If you're doubling to get more gigs, I assume you'll be doing a lot of commercial/show/jazz gigs, and the piece I can reccomend for that is a berg larsen stainless steel bari mpc. They're free blowing, have a killer sound, and good low and high register response.
As far as vibrato goes, if you do the conventional diaphram bassoon vibrato, then you will have a bit of trouble up there, yes. A lip vibrato is optimum in my opinion, and reasonably hard reeds (3 and upwards) make the high register a lot more responsive and easy.
Hope that helps :D