Dream Machine or Gandalfe orders a custom Eppelsheim bass sax

[Gandalfe]

After my purchase of a Eppelsheim soprillo I have been working with Benedikt on a custom bass sax to low A. I wanted the low A for a solo in the bass sax feature song, "You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch".

I can play that solo with my grandson standing by the sax and placing a cardboard tube in the sax at appropriate times. But it would be nice to not have to do that. 8-)

I selected the Eppelsheim after trying Jay Easton's countra-bass sax which was totally playable across the full range of the instrument at my first play. I have a Buescher bass sax that I luv, but there are sub-harmonics to fight and since I'll play two to three saxes in a show, I really wanted an instrument that just plays with very little warm up beyond what I do at the beginning of the show.

Here are some of my asks.


1. Hard and soft case, if possible (the low A makes the case a custom piece because of the extended bell)

2. Lacquer color close to that of my Selmer Hummingbird LE alto sax.

3. Engraving of Botticelli's Venus
This bass sax won't be the lowest in history as the J'Élle Stainer Saxophones maker in Brazil makes bass saxes to low G. But this will be the first bass sax to low A that Benedikt has made.

[Randall]

Gan, that is awesome.

I can only imagine what a beast it will be!

[rim shot]

An amazing one it will be!
The incredible Foghorn of Leghorn.

[Dr_sax]

I must have to visit Benedikt before he sends it to you and have a look at it. ;)

[rabbit]

Venus, nice touch!

Congratulations, hope it is everything you expect & more.

[tjontheroad]

Congrats! I'm so jealous :salute:

I feel like this guy...

[Randall]

Gan, you may want to take a look at my Birth of Venus that Jason did for my Ref 54 tenor:


:D

[Gandalfe]

Gan, you may want to take a look at my Birth of Venus that Jason did for my Ref 54 tenor :DJason gave Benedikt permission to use that engraving as a model. (Thanks Jason!) I think he said he did at NAMM??? But Benedikt's engraver actually did a fancy version that will be used.

[Randall]

Pony up some pix Gan! Can't wait to see it!

[Randall]

BTW, do you have a link for the low G bass sax maker in Brazil?

[Gandalfe]

BTW, do you have a link for the low G bass sax maker in Brazil?There is no web site yet but here is the link to the message: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bass_Sax_Coop/message/4162 and one of the guys actually visited the place and reported back on the Bass Sax Coop site.

[vries1]

Lopes Instrumentos (in Portuguese)

http://www.lopesinstrumentos.hpgvip.ig.com.br/index_fotos.htm

[Gandalfe]

Okay, the custom bell is finished and the lacquer finally done. You can see more pics at my blog site linked below at the Bis Key Chronicles.

Um no, that's not a tuba bell. ;)

[saxtek]

What amazes me most about Benedikt Eppelsheim is that he designs saxophones based on an acoustical model, and then the first one he produces is a good horn. There is no one else more capable of making your low A bass sax. It's a really good idea. After all isn't the bass sax all about low notes?

[Bootman]

Congrats! Bass sax is such a wonderful instrument to play. The smooth low rumble that is different to bari and really makes youtake control of your air.

[sycc]

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Bari/Keilwerth_SX90_special_bass.htm Check this monster out gandalfe!!!!

[Gandalfe]

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Bari/Keilwerth_SX90_special_bass.htm Check this monster out gandalfe!!!!I'd luv to hear that baby play. I trust it isn't just for looking at.

[sycc]

They are rare!!Only 3 custom made by some guy at keilwerth.

[cmelodysax]

They are rare!!Only 3 custom made by some guy at keilwerth.

sycc- He probably doesn't read this forum, but I'm sure that Martin Grunewald wouldn't be very impressed by your description of him as "some guy at keilwerth..." after all the effort that went into that sax. :(

[Gandalfe]

sycc- He probably doesn't read this forum, but I'm sure that Martin Grunewald wouldn't be very impressed by your description of him as "some guy at keilwerth..." after all the effort that went into that sax. :(Does Martin play this instrument much. Are there recordings online?

[sycc]

sycc- He probably doesn't read this forum, but I'm sure that Martin Grunewald wouldn't be very impressed by your description of him as "some guy at keilwerth..." after all the effort that went into that sax. :( Sorry no disrespect was intended!!!That's the guy that made em. I do not think he is at Keilwerth any longer. Again "SORRY!!!"

[sycc]

One of them went to Rhys David. He and Pete Thomas helped Stephen Howard w/ the play testing. Martin,according to the article,was head crafsman at Keilwerth. Not sure if he has one or what happened to the other two.

[Canadiain]

Does Martin play this instrument much. Are there recordings online?
according to Stevens review he left Keilwerth and works for a basson company now.

[Pete Thomas]

I'd luv to hear that baby play. I trust it isn't just for looking at.

No, I had a go on it while it was at Stephen's workshop. I would agree with his opinion about the sound - it was quite baritonish compared to my Buescher, although I don't find that a bad thing, it would be nice to have a bassy bass AND a baritony bass.



My neck has almost recovered

[daigle65]

I wanted the low A for a solo in the bass sax feature song, "You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch".
That's a pretty expensive solution to not wanting to transpose up a semitone;)
.....I'm just jealous.

[Gandalfe]

Actually my grandson (a young saxophone/clarinetist in sixth grade) and I had a routine where he would with military precision insert a tube into the bell of my Buescher bass sax so that I could get the low A. It was hysterical and just worked. But there were way too many low As. I've heard from the arranger, Ward Baxter, and it turns out the solo was originally written for the baritone sax. But I think Jay Easton convinced his buddy Ward to arrange You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch (http://www.jayeaston.com/galleries/Jay_in_Action/action_p_Grinch.html), for a bass and contrabass sax too. 8-)

[rhysonsax]

No, I had a go on it while it was at Stephen's workshop. I would agree with his opinion about the sound - it was quite baritonish compared to my Buescher, although I don't find that a bad thing, it would be nice to have a bassy bass AND a baritony bass.



My neck has almost recovered

Pete,

You'll have to have another try on it some time. I have got a Pillinger bass sax mouthpiece that gives it a nice warm sound and also had the added baffle in the Keilwerth/Zinner mouthpiece reduced. That one has got a nice bark to it, without being too harsh.

I've also been playing around with slings, harnesses and stands and settled on a fancy adjustable SaxRax playing stand that is quite good.

The Grunewald low A bass sax doesn't get out of the house too often, but I'm hoping to build some sort of display case for it and others of my collection when we do some building work next year.

All the best

Rhys

PS Part of the back/neck problem with this horn is that Martin Grunewald must have moved the strap ring up by about 4 inches compared with the Keilwerth to balance the extra tubing at the bell. It is now too high to play in a normal position and I guess that is why he played it on a guitar strap connected to rings at the top and nottom bow. A bit strange but it works.

[Gandalfe]

Gotta second the SaxRax (http://www.saxrax.co.uk/) solution. It's a really stable platform; not as safe as strapped to you, but close. 8-)

[sycc]

Thank you Rhys and Pete for weighing in on this!!!!!Great pic too!!!!

[Stephen Howard]

I'd luv to hear that baby play. I trust it isn't just for looking at.

It's quite a disappointing play, for a bass.
Pete Thomas and I put it through its paces alongside Pete's Buescher bass . A bass ought to be very distinct from a baritone - and, strangely enough, more lyrical. A crooner, in other words.
The Keilwerth is remarkably like a baritone....it just doesn't seem to develop that richness you should get from a bass. I nicknamed it the 'Uber baritone'.
It would sit well on the end of a Soul band five-piece horn section.

I blew some of the Eppelsheim horns at Frankfurt....now THAT's what a bass horn should sound like!

Regards,

[Stephen Howard]

One of them went to Rhys David. He and Pete Thomas helped Stephen Howard w/ the play testing. Martin,according to the article,was head crafsman at Keilwerth. Not sure if he has one or what happened to the other two.

The other two are in Australia. Following the publication of my review I got an email from a chap who has one of the other two.
The owner tells me that it's more apparent that things have been moved around a few times on his prototype.

Regards,

[Gandalfe]

I blew some of the Eppelsheim horns at Frankfurt....now THAT's what a bass horn should sound like!I played Jay Easton's Eppelsheim contrabass sax and from the get go I could play the full range of the instrument effortlessly. No need for alternate fingerings like the Buescher bass sax before Paul Woltz tweaked it and I added a Gloger neck. BTW, I'm just an intermediate player. That's when I knew I had to have one. Jay said the same thing about my Selmer Paris silver clarinet. 8-)

[Pete Thomas]

No need for alternate fingerings like the Buescher bass sax before Paul Woltz tweaked it and I added a Gloger neck.

Gandalfe

What was it about the Buescher bass? I find the C very dead (OK if i use the side C), if it was this do you know what the tweaks are> What did the neck cure?

TIA

[rhysonsax]

It's quite a disappointing play, for a bass.
Pete Thomas and I put it through its paces alongside Pete's Buescher bass . A bass ought to be very distinct from a baritone - and, strangely enough, more lyrical. A crooner, in other words.
The Keilwerth is remarkably like a baritone....it just doesn't seem to develop that richness you should get from a bass. I nicknamed it the 'Uber baritone'.
It would sit well on the end of a Soul band five-piece horn section.

I blew some of the Eppelsheim horns at Frankfurt....now THAT's what a bass horn should sound like!

Hi Steve,

You should really try the Behemoth (low A Grunewald) with the newer bass sax mouthpieces I have now got (Pillinger, modified Keilwerth, old Buescher). When you tried it out, I think you were playing on your bari piece, so that might explain some of your conclusions about the sound.

I tried lots of different pieces on the bass sax, about half and half bass and bari pieces. I also played around with bass reeds on bari pieces and vice versa. The intonation and sound were generally better with the bass mouthpieces and bass reeds. Interestingly, the bass reed added quite a lot of weight to the sound of the bari mouthpieces.

Back to the subject of Eppelsheim. Isn't it true that the Tubax is designed to work with baritone mouthpieces ? What about his bass sax ?

All the best

Rhys

PS I'll lug the behemoth down to the workshop when you're ready for a second encounter (and my back is up to it).

[Gandalfe]

What was it about the Buescher bass? I find the C very dead (OK if i use the side C), if it was this do you know what the tweaks are> What did the neck cure?For me it was mostly D2 that had to have the D3 (side) key pushed without the octave key to get a decent voicing. And yes the C and C# were oh so weak. The Gloger neck improved those notes and gave the G2 and above a bigger sound. Given time and concentration, I could have over come these shortcomings, but playing as many instruments as I do, I decided to go with the Eppelsheim.

BTW, it was interesting to discover that although I don't do altissimo notes on my instruments, the Buescher bass sax altissimo notes just popped for me, almost effortlessly. Paul Woltz showed me that. Very cool and they sounded stronger than the C2 and C#2 notes!

[Pete Thomas]

Hi Steve,



PS I'll lug the behemoth down to the workshop when you're ready for a second encounter (and my back is up to it).

Let me know when that is, I think I owe you a pint anyway.

[Pete Thomas]

The Gloger neck improved those notes and gave the G2 and above a bigger sound.

Thanks I may try one of those.

[Gandalfe]

Thanks I may try one of those.I forgot to say that I really didn't expect too much from the Gloger neck. And I'm at a loss to explain why that particular neck made such a difference. I was in a situation recently where we had to play really sharp and I grabbed my original neck. Man, was that a mistake. All the stuff that I would need to work on was still there.

A friend of mine Paul Coats sez that hacking a half inch off the original neck to get the instrument to be more adjustable intonation-wise was a big mistake. But that didn't change the sound dynamics noticably at all for me. And, Paul Woltz, who many people recognize as a stellar bass sax player, repairman, and friend was the tech that cut down the neck so that it matched the one on his Buescher.

[Stephen Howard]

Hi Steve,

You should really try the Behemoth (low A Grunewald) with the newer bass sax mouthpieces I have now got (Pillinger, modified Keilwerth, old Buescher). When you tried it out, I think you were playing on your bari piece, so that might explain some of your conclusions about the sound.

I tried lots of different pieces on the bass sax, about half and half bass and bari pieces. I also played around with bass reeds on bari pieces and vice versa. The intonation and sound were generally better with the bass mouthpieces and bass reeds. Interestingly, the bass reed added quite a lot of weight to the sound of the bari mouthpieces.

Back to the subject of Eppelsheim. Isn't it true that the Tubax is designed to work with baritone mouthpieces ? What about his bass sax ?

All the best

Rhys

PS I'll lug the behemoth down to the workshop when you're ready for a second encounter (and my back is up to it).

I look forward to trying it with your new pieces!
It should still 'sing' with a bari piece ( Yamaha 5C ) - it's the same piece I use on all the basses, and it's good enough to at least show the main tonal capabilities.
It's what I used on the Tubax and the Ep. basses...though I suspect that the basses would respond very well to a bespoke piece.

Give me plenty of notice before you lug the Behemoth down....so's I can clear some space to get the thing in the workshop!

Cheers,

Steve

[cmelodysax]

Steve - judging by the background, in the picture of Pete wrestling with the 'Tuetonic behemoth', you haven't redecorated yet ? The new place has perfect rustic charm. :) Don't change a thing.

[Pete Thomas]

Steve - judging by the background, in the picture of Pete wrestling with the 'Tuetonic behemoth', you haven't redecorated yet ? The new place has perfect rustic charm. :) Don't change a thing.

Too late, he's had it done up a bit:

[Martinman]

Nice!

[Stephen Howard]

Steve - judging by the background, in the picture of Pete wrestling with the 'Tuetonic behemoth', you haven't redecorated yet ? The new place has perfect rustic charm. :) Don't change a thing.

I haven't done much....haven't had the time.
I have possibly one of the largest repair benches in the business...big enough to lay 4 basses on at once...it would just be nice to be able to get to it!

Maybe next year....

Regards,

[Stephen Howard]

Blimey Pete..I better put me prices up, quick!!!

Cheers,

Steve

[cmelodysax]

Who is that ghostly figure, towering over Pete, in the chapel ? An old monk, maybe, disturbed by the rumbling... ? :shock:

[saxtek]

[QUOTE=rhysonsax]Back to the subject of Eppelsheim. Isn't it true that the Tubax is designed to work with baritone mouthpieces ? What about his bass sax ?


The Tubax, with a bore that approximates the baritone sax, and toneholes about the size of a baritone, works very well with a baritone mouthpiece and a baritone mouthpiece is supplied with the Tubax. Most players who have tried my Tubax feel immediately comfortable using their own baritone sax mouthpiece, whatever that may be.

Eppelsheim's bass saxophone is a true largebore bass saxophone. It starts out even larger than the old Bueschers and Conns and it has a really deep, true bass sax sound, the best ever, I think.

Also, Eppelsheim's bass has much larger toneholes than any previous saxophone, providing these advantages:

1. The large toneholes help to eliminate the bad notes (C natural, et. al.) found on vintage basses (I'm sure the new bore helps too). Tonehole size should be proportional to the size of the bore, and for the first time on the Eppelsheim bass, a big bore bass has holes of the correct diameter. Some of the keys are nearly 4 inches in diameter.

2. The large toneholes vent well enough that the keyheights can be fairly low, about the same height as a baritone saxophone. Action on the Eppy bass is therefore very fast. Also, use of the bis Bb key becomes practical on an Eppelsheim because the left first finger doesn't have to "climb" an impossible height to reach the bis key pearl. The Eppelsheim bass saxophone proves that the "Keys should open 1/3 the diameter of the tonehole" rule is an oversimplification. The Eppelsheim bass keys open less than 1/4 of the tonehole diameter on many keys, and every fingering, including alternate fingerings, sound clearer than on any other bass sax.

The Eppelsheim bass saxophone can use a baritone saxophone mouthpiece with an enlarged backbore to fit the enormous neck opening. I have experimented successfully with an old Otto Link slant signature baritone mouthpiece and vintage large chamber baritone mouthpieces on the Eppelsheim Bb bass. However, the Zinner mouthpieces available for the Eppelsheim have so many variations in chambers, baffles, and facings that it really isn't necessary to spend the time and money altering bari mouthpieces. For example, the Zinner B chamber for the Eppelsheim is remarkably similar to the Otto Link mouthpiece; the Zinner A chamber mouthpiece is similar to an old stock baritone mouthpiece and the Zinners are available with facings more suited to modern playing.

My MYSPACE page has lots of Eppelsheim bass recordings:

http://www.myspace.com/saxpsychosis

[rhysonsax]

Who is that ghostly figure, towering over Pete, in the chapel ? An old monk, maybe, disturbed by the rumbling... ? :shock:

That figure is me, looking concerned that my new sax was going to survive the exerience.

Unfortunately, someone seems to have modified the picture and removed most of my hair. I find that often happens nowadays.

Rhys

[Jazz43]

Gandalfe, how was Mr. Eppelsheim to deal with? Do you think he would be open to a similar custom job?

[Gandalfe]

I found Benedikt to be super easy to work with. There is a line of buyers queued up so you'd want to go ahead and get in line if you want a custom sax. The soprillo came a week after I ordered it because he had some on hand. The bass sax took less than a year.

[saxtek]

Wow!

You are now the owner of the world's greatest bass sax. Did you get the engraving you wanted?

My MYSPACE page - Eppelsheim bass sax solos located here:

http://www.myspace.com/saxpsychosis

[sycc]

Gandalfe,I'm so excited for you!!!!!!!!!Your new bass is awesome!!!!!Enjoy it in good health!!!!!

[Gandalfe]

It has the Venus De Milo (venus coming out of a shell) engraving. There may be more orders for the Eppelsheim low A bass sax. I am indeed very fortunate to have a horn of this quality. Now comes the woodshed time.

[SAXISMYAXE]

Is that ever a beauty! Don't be shy, post some sound clips after you become acclimated to your new horn.

Congratulations.:bounce: :headbang:

[Jazz43]

That is amazing Gandalfe. I can't wait for sound clips.

I sent an email to Benedikt a few hours ago, and I'll see where it goes. I wonder if he'd do a hyper-extended range on an alto ;)

[Gandalfe]

That is amazing Gandalfe. I can't wait for sound clips.

I sent an email to Benedikt a few hours ago, and I'll see where it goes. I wonder if he'd do a hyper-extended range on an alto ;)Did you follow through on this? Also there's a sound clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjOSApFkmFk. This should cement my status as a hobbyist. 8-)

[SaxPlayer1004]

You sound great Gandalfe

I'm in the process of making/having made a bass to low G. Should prove to be an interesting task and we're going to do it right instead of the Buescher. Will post many a picture as well as full playing tests.

[Gandalfe]

Who's helping you do this as SaxQuest was looking to make one too?

[Pete Thomas]

That figure is me, looking concerned that my new sax was going to survive the exerience.

Unfortunately, someone seems to have modified the picture and removed most of my hair. I find that often happens nowadays.


Aha, I just found the pre photoshopped original:

[SaxPlayer1004]

Martinmods is going to be doing quite a bit of it.

Just need to find a donor horn... Ideally I'd like to find out which one has the largest bell flare and largest bell so that there doesn't have to be quite as major of an expansion and I think Buescher wins that? no?

Extension goes between body and bow. Bow diameter gets widened .Extension goes between bell and bow. Bell gets widened. Flare stays the same.
Yamaha low A mechanism. Low Ab and G are going to be like the B and Bb tables with the G actuating the Ab and be placed on the right thumb a la bass clarinets.

Since the bow and bell are undergoing modification, I'd rather have a junker in lacquer and send it off to get plated later. It's not really going to be sellable afterwards.

[SAX94]

There is a website for J'Elle Stainer saxes
www.below65-4hz.com
http://www.below65-4hz.com
Sure the Eppelsheim low A will be a wonderful one, when will it be ready?
Where are the ones made by Martin Grunewald?

[saxsolos]

I have got to get one of those. Man that looks fun!

[SaxPlayer1004]

Gandalfe has his low A eppie already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjOSApFkmFk
Video is there.
The only Martin Grunewald bass that I know of is still in England, I don't think any of them made it over here.