Jim Schmidt's Sax's

[KingConn]

Anyone had a chance to see or even try one. Looks
very good. Kudo's to anyone who think's a little
differently. I'd love to give one a try. I listened to
a song of where he is playing the Contralto.
The best sounding sax I've ever heard.
Now, if I sell my current horns, my car and my
motorcycles, I might have enough to buy one. :cry:

[pknight]

Your reference to the price of these instruments illustrates one reason why this system will never really catch on. This is not a comment on the merits of the design, just an economic fact.

The other reason that these will probably never be more than a curiosity in the sax world is inertia. There are too many millions of saxophones using the standard design and fingering to be overcome by any changes this drastic. While there have been, and continue to be, changes to the sax, these changes must be evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, to be widely accepted and become standard themselves.

So, while I join you in admiring Jim Schmitd's work, if I had the money I'd get a number of excellent "standard" saxes rather than one of his.

[RatBatBlues]

I wonder if there's a way to retrofit existing saxes to use the Schmidt fingering. I started a playing sax a few years ago at age 38, and I still have problems with the D/D# fingering - it's just not logical. G/G# is also wierd.

I think there'd be a market for the retrofit, at least amongst the late bloomers like myself.

[Billy The Fish]

The other reason that these will probably never be more than a curiosity in the sax world is inertia. There are too many millions of saxophones using the standard design and fingering to be overcome by any changes this drastic.

Whilst it is a shame, I totally agree. How many of you are still using a standard QWERTY keyboard ? It's design is totally inefficient for use on a PC or electric typewriter. It was designed in such a way as to minimise key jams on old manual typewriters, so it kept common letter pairings on opposite sides of the keyboard to avoid one lever hitting the other on the down.
How many have since converted to a more efficient and logical layout (such as the Dvorak keyboard) now that manual levers are not an issue? (and contrary to popular opinion the advantages of the Dvorak keyboard seem to be less about speed and more about comfort - less "hurdling" to get to keys, less overall movement, less risk of RSI). Far less than 1% I would guess. Inertia is king. People don't want the hassle of learning new layouts, so the key market would be beginners - and that's where the price issue comes in :? .

Nice idea though - good to see that someone dares to be different.

Billy The Fish.

[MusicMedic]

Jim is a fascinating guy wonderful to deal with. I have had great luck with his Metalized pads, they are a fine product indeed.
I don't necessarily agree with the terminal predictions made above. I believe that if a few good players begin to perform on and promote a new product like Jim's saxophones, others may follow suit. Having looked briefly at the Contralto, it appears that the key layout is somewhat intuitive. As a saxophonist, I do not see that it would be that difficult to learn this new system.
Jim's saxophone is very easy on the fingers and hands and does not cause any tension. The key work is very light and easy to use.

[pknight]

MusicMedic, your assessment of the Schmidt sax's merits may be right on the money, but money is still an issue.

And Billy The Fish is absolutely correct about the advantages of the Dvorak keyboard, which have been documented and widely known for many decades. There are thousands of times more keyboard users than there are sax players, so the potential benefits of adopting the Dvoark layout are much greater. And, unlike adopting a new sax design, a new keyboard layout would entail virtually NO engineering or manufacturing changes to modern keyboards--just different keyboard drivers, which are probably already part of your current operating system, and placing the keys in differently on the keyboard. And yet, the virtually universal use of, if not contentment with, the QWERTY keyboard has kept it the standard all this time, with no real movement afoot to change.

With a new sax design, there are many more potential barriers to widespread, or even narrow, adoption. For example there is the issue of teaching new fingering methods to experienced players (which most won't want to mess with), as well as the issue of convincing manufacturers to adopt the new design, if indeed Schmidt is willing to license the design. (Schmidt's instruments are priced far too high to make any real dent in the broad market, so the design would have to picked up by others. If not, how would newbies learn his system when their parents often have to scrape to get the money for a used Bundy II, not to mention the rest of us who have had to scrape to get the money for the saxes we now own?)

Most important, however, is the fact that there are those millions of traditional saxes out there, and the market will most certainly not tolerate two standards. Note what happened to Sony's Beta format in the face of the inferior VHS's greater market share.

A final thought: MusicMedic's last sentence in the message above indicates that he has played a Schmidt sax. I do not recall anyone else on SOTW reporting first-hand experience with these instruments. Many people talk about the web site, but they don't seem to have been successfully tempted to place an order. If the folks here on SOTW aren't actively investigating this innovation, who is going to?

So, while the Schmidt sax may be the best thing since sliced bread, I believe that the marketplace barriers to it becoming successful are just too great.

[pfox]

RatBatBlues-If you look at Schmidt's website you'll see that his sax is a complete design unto itself. The placement , size, etc. of toneholes is different from standard saxes, so a retrofit is impossible. It's not just a matter of different fingerings. I would love to have a chance to play one, too, I think he has a great idea, and apparently a successful end result. The only way these could ever get popular is if they were more readily available. The cost and production volume will limit that, unfortunately. Maybe if they were priced affordably and marketed to schools, to get beginners started on an easier to learn instrument...

[Manny]

The downside that I see on these saxes is that there fingerings are so different from other woodwinds that a person learning on this sax would have a difficult time seconding on another instrument, such as a flute or clarinet. The fingering as they are now give a greater chance to get familiar with the other woodwind instruments.

[jim schmidt]

I would love for someone to help me with mass production. That takes a huge amount of start up capital. But I am an artist - not an established company.

I know that I need to send out demo horns etc but my horns are sold before I even start them. This could change but some dedicated "others' would have to get involved. In the mean time I will make them one at a time.

The brass foil pads are a tremendous benefit to horn players. They are affordable and very desirable when you consider what they do for your tone. My hope is that they will catch on and provide me with some income to recycle into more efficient horn building.

So I'm going to put it back on you - if you can't afford the horns - get some of the brass foil pads and you'll be doing us both a favor.

The brass pads are available through myself or musicmedic.com or JL Smith Co.

That’s it for now - I've got a Contralto sax waiting on the bench that is nearing completion.

Jim Schmidt
www.jsengineering.net

[Quijote]

The downside that I see on these saxes is that there fingerings are so different from other woodwinds that a person learning on this sax would have a difficult time seconding on another instrument, such as a flute or clarinet. The fingering as they are now give a greater chance to get familiar with the other woodwind instruments.

I can't agree more. These "exotic" instruments are definitely made for a rather minuscule group of sax-only players who have never touched other woodwind and do not intend to play any it in the future.

[pfox]

Mr. Schmidt-nice to see you take an interest in the opinions of the members here. Keep up the good work, even Adolphe had his detractors, but we're all playing his basic design today. Maybe it'll be yours tomorrow. I always respect someone who has a vision and makes it happen.

[RatBatBlues]

I wonder if it is all that difficult to relearn a few notes. Though I myself am not all that experienced, I read about players using alternate fingerings to solve intonation issues from horn to horn, as well as the different altissimo configurations between soprano, tenor, etc.

I have a coworker who switched his computer keyboard to Dvorak (it's a configuration item on most systems) within the last 6 months, and he is a fluent typist on both. It sure prevents anyone else from using his computer.

What about learning clarinet - you're fingering different notes above and below the break, and the break itself. I see players doubling on sax and clarinet all the time. Is it inconceivable that learning an alternate fingering on a few notes can be done in a few months of practice?

Just some thoughts - I can't afford another horn right now.

[Manny]

Well, I'm saying that such things as scales are uniformly similar movement in the woodwinds... starting with 1 and going to 6 with odd keys pressed with your palms in between... I would think on this sax you would be dropping and lifting 2 or maybe more fingers at a time instead of the usual 1 at a time...I really don't know, If some wants to buy me one, I promise to tell you how hard it is... :D

[Quijote]

I wonder if it is all that difficult to relearn a few notes. Though I myself am not all that experienced, I read about players using alternate fingerings to solve intonation issues from horn to horn, as well as the different altissimo configurations between soprano, tenor, etc.

What about learning clarinet - you're fingering different notes above and below the break, and the break itself. I see players doubling on sax and clarinet all the time. Is it inconceivable that learning an alternate fingering on a few notes can be done in a few months of practice?

However, the basic pattern of covering distinct holes, pressing distinct keys & lifting fingers has been commonly established across the woodwind family of instruments.

[M Exner]

Jim I totally admire the innovative saxophone design you invented. It's incredible how you set out to improve something and did it yourself. It's great that you joined us on this board.

I'm reminded of the Mazzeo clarinet that my wife had in the late 60's and early 70's. Selmer was the only manufacturer with the patent rights to produce the clarinet.

It was an inovative clarinet to improve the tone of the Bb with an extra tone hole and easier fingering. It also had a left thumb key pad for the ordinarily opened tone hole on the clarinet.

My wife started on this clarinet and loved it. She went on to allstate bands, All American band (McDonalds), and was a clarinet performance major under the late Theodore Jahn at the Univ. of Ga. To this day she only plays on the Mazzeo clarinet (Series 9 or 10) and will go to others.

My point is this, You can't find this clarinet today because it died on the vine with just the "one" manufacturer of Selmer. If all the others like Buffet, Leblanc, and Yamaha have the manufacturing rights to produce the new clarinet then it will become more widely produced and accepted. Also you have individuals who will not buy an instrument that does not have their tradename or brand on it.

So the lessen from this is to put it in the hands of young musicians and to make it available to all saxophone manufacturers. If you try to make all the money up front with the patent thing, then you are going to severely limit the production and sales of the saxophone with your new design.

One man's opinion on the subject. Mike

[jim schmidt]

Hello Mike

There are no patents on the fingering system. My patents and patents pending cover the metalized flute and sax pads and there are patents pending on the Diamond tonehole files. I wouldn't mind getting some help in making the horns. I am interested in actual help and involvement beyond the well intentioned advice. I know that I can't get into mass production by myself. So I'm not placing any obstacles in the way. The established companies are very conservative and would rather follow than lead. Where are the other leaders and innovators out there? Where are the Venture Capitalists - HELLO?

Jim Schmidt

[M Exner]

You're right, the big obstacle is the initial investment putting these saxes out there to get saxophonists familiar with the new design.

Making them one at a time in the manner you are with careful craftmanship is a definite plus, but it's not getting the job done fast enough.

I'm sure you already know this, but I see two phases, one to make the prototype production models, initially maybe 200 saxes, that would familiarize prospective manufacturers and artists with the new design.

The second phase to provide incentives with low end patent rights to mass produce at maybe lower costs than standard models. With the simplistic keywork, it does seem as though these could be made less expensively. Start up would be very high of course.

I would definitely look to the Chinese work force for that initial production. Mike

[Stacey]

This whole idea of inertia, and its result - "evolutionary", versus revolutionary, change - really annoys me. It's not that I doubt the truth of it, but it annoys me.

I used to work at a place that had big banners on the walls stressing Continuous Improvement. It was the sort of place where you would never try to introduce "a Jim Schmidt sax" - instead, you might suggest "an easier-to-produce keyguard for Keilwerths" (for example).

Did this company make slow but steady improvements? Of course it did.

Did this company cultivate an environment where a radical, significant leap forward was extremely unlikely? OF COURSE IT DID.

Jim, I'd absolutely love to try one of your saxes. But I don't have $9000, and you have no chance at being able (for the near future) to be able to make and sell them for $2000!

Build a better mousetrap, and the world will.... ok, the world SHOULD beat a path to your door.

[dingfelder]

Jim,

I have no ability to help you make saxes (I can do simple repairs like changing pads or polishing silver but have no metal working skills) but one area I do know very well is software development.

If you are interested, I would be glad to take a crack at helping to redesign your website. If it looks sharper, it might be easier to advertise and shmooze new industry people into believing your ideas.

If enough people volunteer to help as they can, who know what will happen !

[barisaxplayer]

hey man this horn looks great in some cases, other cases it looks like you were tryin to make it futuristic- I like the older looks over all(for now), right now your new design makes the horn look bulky. Keys and big cage down on the bottom give it an uncomfortable look but maybe that's just me. Who knows, I haven't tried this, it could be totally cool!

I'd love to give one of these puppies a try! the layout you came up with could be one to learn altho with several years of normal sax playing it could be interesting to learn for a while.

I'm saving my money a lot for college + new horns + stuff like that, when(I hope you do) come out with a bari version I'd like to test it :) unfortunately I aint got that kinda cash on me and probably won't for a while.

[HG]

Jim,

1) I do agree with the keybaord layout point. Even though there are not as many sax players than keyboard typers out there, there is still a fair amount. I don't think attacking the old sax players should be priority. You should obvious attack the students and future sax playing pros. Which leads to my next point

2) Cost is an issue for all of us. ESPECIALLY the students. I was thinking, is this a student model, intermediate, or professional. My guess it would be a professional model. Is there anyway to reduce the amount work or quality but keep the same fingering and style to make a "cheaper" horn?

3) To me, and many others think that the new fingering system may not work. Why? People are traditional, the traditional fingering has been used for many years and it would be pretty hard to change people's minds about the fingering system. But then, if you do succeed, you will be a famous person in history.

4) Teachers: For all those who teach, will have to adapt and learn both systems. Let's just say it's not easy. Because 1) You have to GET the sax $_$, then you have to learn and be able to teach it! Work work work~

5) I agree with the point of the "woodwind" family keywork. I transfered from the clarinet to the sax, it was no problem. Yes I did have some problems with sight reading because I always thought the G on the page was 1 2 3 1 2 3 on teh saxophone. But time will over come that. This on the other hand is TOTALLY different. I think many will get confused learning both system. But I have a great solution. Why not just make ALL the woodwind family instruments with your system. You already have a flute, add a clarinet, oboe, bass clarinet... (yes it WILL take sometime) But if you do succeed, I WON'T HAVE SIGHT READING PROBLEMS ANYMORE... fingering's are the same :D

6) I really like the futuristic design. It's something I would expect to be in a museum or something. Very unique, and lots of wires wrapping and makign the sax too fantastic.

Well, if I was rich...
I would definately buy one, and try one. If I don't like it, or don't want to change to the new system. Easy, it will look GREAT in a glass case in my house.

Anyways, GOOD LUCK with your creation. I did think in the beginning... "It's not going to work... the hundreds of year tradition wouldn't be broken that easily" But now, I just think if you could manage to "sell" your system to Selmer or yamaha etc. It could help you mass produce and bring these horns to the homes of many others. I think Selmer, a very big sax producing company is worth talking to. If not, you should try to mass produce it yourself, aim for high, spread your creation. I congratulate you for your hard work and wish you luck. It would be in my hands someday you never know....

[queperknuckle]

I'm all for this new sax. If I ever get money, I will buy one. I don't think learning this would be that hard. All I'd have to do is practice the scales with the new horn and relearn the patterns. Any good sax player has them in his head anyway. The main issue is the price and marketing. This is a great idea. I totally embrace it. When I get the money together jim, I will invest in one of your horns.