A Comedy of Errors: Dolnet HP tenor

[abadcliche]

I post this with great trepidation, but I believe it is the right thing to do in the interests of transparency of my business and also passing on knowledge earned the hard/stupid way. Keep in mind that nobody but me lost money on this deal. I even refunded shipping charges, both ways.




It is with reddened face and sweaty palms that I report to you the following, the most humiliating experience of my career thus far- by a loooooong shot. The next worst was when I said "sex" instead of "sax" to a 50 year old female customer :shock:, which is peanuts in comparison.

I have recently made the biggest and dumbest mistake of my repair career. A comedy of errors that luckily in the end wasted only time and my money, vs. the money of others.

I purchased a Dolnet tenor on ebay (from the Netherlands) and overhauled it. I took it into work to have my coworkers playtest it, me not being a great tenor player. Having a violin repairman with perfect pitch in the room, we always use (or used to, anyways, as this story will illuminate) him for our tuner, with great success. His feedback was accurate and more illuminating than the tuner (he could even tell us about the intonation of the overtones in each note), so most times if he was around we just used him.

So, everyone proceeds to pass this particular horn around the shop with him listening. Octaves sound great, fifths, thirds, half steps, everything is very even and according to him very in tune up and down. He even goes so far as to remark how even it is for a saxophone. We continue to pass it around, playing it for fun, and put it back in its case. Everyone loves the horn. I play a few arpeggios and octaves myself, and satisfied, I try to find a neck plug for it to put it away in its case. I have an original 10m neckplug, and it is too small, rattling around in the receiver. Wow, I think to myself, this is a large bore horn.

A few days later a moderately well-known recording artist drops in and tries it out in a practice room with a tuner (although for reasons that will be seen later, I don't think he turned it on) for about a half hour. Loves it, but decides not to buy.

A week or so later, one of my coworkers borrows the horn for a gig. Forgetting his mouthpiece bag at home, he has to borrow a mouthpiece from a maker he doesn't like. He has trouble playing in tune all night, but manages to play it well enough that his troubles are not noticed by the rest of the band. Tells me about it the next morning in the context of how much X mouthpiece maker sucks.

A friend of mine borrows the horn to play around with. He takes it home and keeps it for a few days. Reports back that it is badass.

A while later I sell the horn to a guy I haven't met, but who is a SOTW member. He reports intonation problems and returns it. He asks if it could be high pitch. I seriously doubt it, I say. No marking on the body indicating that, and the bore is larger than a 10m! We do another deal on something else and part ways amicably, but each of us sort of thinks quietly that the other one is wrong about the Dolnet.

I get the horn back, and everyone in the shop is amazed about it being returned on account of intonation, particularly the violin player.

I sell the horn again to a guy in Japan, whom I haven't met but who is also a SOTW member. He also reports intonation problems! I send him a box of mouthpieces to try out. He says he can get sort of close, but it goes wacky up high and down low. He returns the horn, I refund him, we part ways amicably. I am starting to feel a little crazy and pretty nervous at this point.

The horn arrives on my doorstep. I am thinking to myself at this point "Well, since I really like the horn and its been such a pain so far, I think I'll just keep it. I've been wanting a tenor!". I get the horn out and play some arpeggios, octaves. Sounds good! My wife, also a violin player, says "Sounds in tune to me!".

I break out the tuner. Realization dawns. I begin to sweat profusely, I stammer and falter and sink into my chair. I have a horn that is perfectly in tune with itself- in the key of B. A high pitch horn. PERFECTLY a half pitch sharp! My dear sweet violin repairman, my dear sweet wife, not knowing what note I was fingering, only heard the pitches being in tune, not knowing that I was expecting pitches a half step away. One guy had it in a practice room for a half hour with a tuner and said it played great. Another guy took it home with a tuner and said it played great. Now I think that these tuners couldnt have ever been turned on! Three of the people who played the horn are signed to record labels, two as tenor players, and one as an alto player. Taken all together with the violin repairman with perfect pitch, I thought I had a rock solid group of playtesters, with many of them using tuners- although apparently not turned on, or only paying attention to the green light vs. the actual note being produced.

And it could have all been avoided if I had sat down myself and used a #$^#%^ tuner.

So, my biggest error, illuminated in public for all to see. Why? Because Dolnet saxophones have no indication on the body that they are high pitch! I have taken some measurements of this horn (prior to it going either on my wall as a hubris deterrent, or out on the street if I can't bear the shame) so that if you see one on ebay like I did you can ask for some measurements and perhaps save yourself the trouble. That is the reason for this post.

Bell diameter: 15.4cm = 6"
Inner tenon diameter (body): 2.8cm = 1 1/8"
Top of body tenon to bow length: 69.8cm = 27 1/2"


And honestly, I am about as humiliated as I have ever been. Have some mercy if you can. I wrote all this out in the hopes of saving people some trouble and money when buying a Dolnet- trouble and money I myself have spent.

This experience does NOT change my belief that Dolnet's are badass horns. Just changes my opinion about using anything other than a quiet room and a tuner and my own self for intonation checks.

Oh, and does anyone want a horn in the key of B natural? Plays perfectly in tune! :cry:

[Carl H.]

Perfect horn for playing with guitars. Bb and F sure beat B and F# for rookies! I think you could sell it without too much problem if you explain its peculiar tuning.

[abadcliche]

Ah, a ray of light...

Thank you Carl. I will not put it out on the sidewalk just yet.

[Saxland]

You could refuse to sell it, only offer to rent it out to sax players that are peeved with guitar keys and want to suddenly be the best player in the band, at least for a gig!!! I remember at 16 being forced to play with sharp guitars and my key of C solo suddenly became a C# solo at a battle of the bands. I'm pretty sure they pulled that on me at the last minute because I was guesting for one show and they realised I would get the spotlight. Would have loved to have the Dolnet then heh-heh!!! :twisted:

That would for sure turn more guitars into lamps.....

[Sax Hut]

Bell diameter: 15.4cm = 6"
Inner tenon diameter (body): 2.8cm = 1 1/8"
Top of body tenon to bow length: 69.8cm = 27 1/2"

Your story confirms my fears about buying a Dolnet from the European market. Is that horn body "tenon to bow" length simply a measurement of the height of the horn (sans neck)? If so, that's quite short.... You have er, a B-melody tenor !!!

By the way, does your horn have a "C" at the end of the serial number? Every Dolnet tenor I've measured (not many, only four) has had that "C." Without the neck, they all ranged around 29 3/8 to 29 1/2 inches high. Would that be a difference of close to 2 inches relative to your horn? I'm curious if the "C" might mean anything here.....

[abadcliche]

No C, just the serial. That sounds like the first clue so far to discerning these without breaking out the measuring tape. The serial number is physically located just above the bow to body joint on the RH side of the horn, about 90 degrees from where buescher/conn/selmer serial numbers are.

Yes, that is a measurement of the length without the neck.

The horn does look a bit stubby, but the bend of the neck is fairly odd, and the bell is pretty zaftig, so when taken all together, it doesn't jump out at you as being a smaller horn- especially in pictures.

[tjontheroad]

Matt, you're a honest guy :thumbrig: That requires humility. No shame there. Be glad you just sold it and didn't trade it. That would have been messy.

[Sax Hut]

No C, just the serial. That sounds like the first clue so far to discerning these without breaking out the measuring tape....

Yes, that's what I'm wondering. For now, until I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume Dolnets with the "C" suffix are the desirable low-pitch horns, and that Dolnets without the "C" are high-pitch.

[G-dawg]

Just transpose and finger everything a half step lower...??? 8-)

(all of the time!) ;)

[Pete]

Ah, here's where wind.miller's comments came from.

I got an e-mail from w.m the other day asking if I knew if the letter after a Dolnet serial number indicated anything about pitch.

"No," said I, "Dolnet used several different letters and the presence or absence of letters doesn't indicate anything that I can see. 'High Pitch'? I think the last high pitch, A=457hz, European-made horn was produced in 1932 (probably a Buffet) and the last US-made HP horn was made around 1941 (definitely a Conn).

"Now, the Dolnets that have letters after their serial numbers are the Bel Air series. We're talking 1950 through 1970. I doubt that any horn produced during that time would be A=457hz -- especially as A=457hz was a US phenomenon.

"Now, A=442hz? Possible. The Buffet S1 is an A=442hz horn -- unless you get one with an 'A' suffix serial number. However, I've easily been able to get an A=440hz horn to play in tune at A=442hz by compensating a bit and folks have told me they can do the same in reverse on their S1/S2/S3's. Not to mention that if you're only 2hz sharp, I'd be insanely happy."

Soooooo, Matt: what was the model and/or serial numberage of the horn you're talking about? I'm thinking "earlier than the Bel Air". Prove me right or wrong!

(BTB: an A=457hz horn isn't exactly a 1/2 step off; it's considerably less than that. However, from what I keep hearing about HP Buffets -- and Dolnet took their inspiration from Buffet -- it's very probably that the mouthpiece was adjusted just right and you were subconsiously adjusting to get each note in tune. Either that, or the horn's some weird custom thing and we're gonna need a young priest and an old priest ....)

[stitch]

Perfect horn for playing with guitars. Bb and F sure beat B and F# for rookies! I think you could sell it without too much problem if you explain its peculiar tuning.

I don't think it quite works like that. My knowledge of acoustics isn't great, so I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong, but as I understand it, it's not simply a step up.

A LP horn plays at A = 440Hz and say the HP plays at 457; so the HP is 17Hz higher. Now play A an octave up: LP is 880Hz, HP is 914; that's 34Hz higher, so as you play up the scale the HP horn is getting progressively more adrift. That's why a HP horn is only usable on its own or with similar instruments.

[abadcliche]

The serial is 37547, and it definitely looks like a bel air in mechanism. Has the diamond bell-to-body brace.


As far as it playing in the key of B, I just checked again with a tuner and from low Bb to high F, the thing plays pretty darn close to a half step up from concert pitch. The worst intonation was around the bell keys, which were a bit flat. This is using a Otto Link 4**** mouthpiece. I sort of thought/think the same way as you, stitch. Perhaps the bell keys getting flatter is a symptom? Maybe within a couple of octaves, the problem won't manifest itself as much?

Since seeing Carl's suggestion, I found this on Cybersax, advertising a Conn 11m chu berry:

"Who would want to play a high pitch tenor? With the old & primitively designed ones that's a legitimate question -- but this is a full fledged modern tenor that just happens to have been built a little differently. The latter Chu tenors have the thickest, richest sound imaginable, and this one seems especially blessed! These late HP saxes can be manipulated to play with modern instruments, and in some cases, it is amazingly to the player's advantage. With a long shank mouthpiece one can tune the sax to B natural, which allows some simplifying transposition opportunities. Guitar players love the keys of E & A, yes? This leaves Bb tuned tenor players in some rather difficult keys. Now admittedly most of us have learned to cope, but think for a moment about the possibilities of playing your tenor in F & Bb, as opposed to Gb & B ...
Is anyone listening yet?"

original text can be found at http://www.cybersax.com/4Sale/Saxophones/Tenors/Saxophones_Tenor.html allllll the way at the bottom.

[milandro]

I don't mean to be intrusive ( or the play the role of the know-it-all...) here but we are discussing Dolnet pitches elsewhere on this forum and there has been much speculation on the significance of the letters in the SN with regards to the pitch. I most definitely have bought a Dolnet Alto which was nowhere near being in a normal pitch .If you would tune it to play a concert A in F#, the mouthpiece, several mouthpieces I might add, had to be pulled out so much that would nearly fall off and only mouthpieces with a very long shank would help a little and stay on somehow (needed huge thickness of the cork to seal) , if you had done that the horn was not in tune within itself!

Measuring (even roughly) the horn next to another alto gave you immediately the feel of something wrong going on. The bore was definitely smaller and the length was smaller too! (very cute ideed!).
If the horn would differ precisely half a tone wouldn't be a problem at all, it would be just like playing a sax next to another built in a different key (like a C-melody tenor next a normal tenor ), if you play the same note your fingers have different position and there are records of various unusual saxophones built in different keys, I seem to remember also the mention among those also of a E alto. But this is not the case with a HP.

However a saxophone built in a different frequency would never play in tune unless the horn player is a magician with his enbrochure (and there are record of this too....) and can perform under this incredible circumstances.

With regards to the existence on the European market and in the common practice of HP instruments, I am positive there are records of marching bands in the Netherlands which used these intruments until the seventies. Almost any shop has had one or two unfortunate encounters with these saxophones (different brands), some offer them to this day (run a serch with the words " hoge stemming " and you will find some on the internet) and they are regularly offeren on the second hand sites. I bumped into one once. It won't happen again.

[AmSaxPlayer]

I don't think it quite works like that. My knowledge of acoustics isn't great, so I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong, but as I understand it, it's not simply a step up.

A LP horn plays at A = 440Hz and say the HP plays at 457; so the HP is 17Hz higher. Now play A an octave up: LP is 880Hz, HP is 914; that's 34Hz higher, so as you play up the scale the HP horn is getting progressively more adrift. That's why a HP horn is only usable on its own or with similar instruments.

I don't think he's trying to get it into a pitch of A = 440 Hz, but instead 466 Hz.

One thing to note is that each half step is a multiple of 2^(1/12) Hz higher than the previous step. So in this case, perfectly on pitch would be ~466 Hz, whereas this one may be tuned to 457, a difference of 9 Hz. One octave up will be off by 18 Hz (932 Hz in tune vs. 914 Hz). A notable difference, but still may be able to compensate. With careful mouthpiece choice, I think this definitely could be made to play *very* close to in tune.

[milandro]

With careful mouthpiece choice, I think this definitely could be made to play *very* close to in tune.[/QUOTE]


I believe that if it would be possible for most saxophone players to do just that there will be stacks of HP saxophones to become instantly of any value while, for the most part, nowadays, they are just freak horns one can use on a desert island or at most while playing with a string instrument (and just because they can easily be tuned in your pitch...)but more often than not they just hang on the walls of cafè's (always worth checking though, you never know...it might be a forgotten great saxophone)

[Carl H.]

I don't think it quite works like that. My knowledge of acoustics isn't great, so I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong, but as I understand it, it's not simply a step up.

A LP horn plays at A = 440Hz and say the HP plays at 457; so the HP is 17Hz higher. Now play A an octave up: LP is 880Hz, HP is 914; that's 34Hz higher, so as you play up the scale the HP horn is getting progressively more adrift. That's why a HP horn is only usable on its own or with similar instruments.


Look, I know all about high pitch and low pitch. here we were presented with a sax which played perfectly in tune to a tuner in the key of B. If he had said it couldn't be played in tune, that is different.

I go only by what I know (am told) in each instance. This was described as a B horn, and that is what my post is based on. If my transposition was in error, let me know about it.

[stitch]

Look, I know all about high pitch and low pitch. here we were presented with a sax which played perfectly in tune to a tuner in the key of B. If he had said it couldn't be played in tune, that is different.

I go only by what I know (am told) in each instance. This was described as a B horn, and that is what my post is based on. If my transposition was in error, let me know about it.

OK, fair enough. I think the appropriate phrase is 'my bad ...' :oops:

[Carl H.]

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

[milandro]

everything is, of course possible, but somethings are highly unlikely, if not impossible. Although it is possible that Dolnet ever made a B tenor in order to improve the performance and the ease odf saxophonists while playing with guitarplayers (not usually the main concern of woodwinds makers), it is unlikely that nobody ever knew about it (there would have been advertising in its time to spread the word around) or that this was an absolute one-off, there should be more known to mankind. However everithing is possible there is, after all a E alto, which is apparently the holy graal which every High pitch alto is trying to couple his intrument to (been there, done that).

Yet there are Dolnet High pitch horns out there (and other brands too) produced or sold later than the '20 or '30 (remember the world war II halted the industrial production of many things which weren't essential to the war effort of the many countries involved and plenty of pre war stock might have been stored for years and sold after the war). This we know (at least I know) while we don't know anything about a in regular production B tenor (an experimental horn woulnd't have a serial number).
However the proof of the pudding is in the eating, if you have a B tenor it belongs in a museum because it is a fairly unique piece.:cheers:

[abadcliche]

Now this is getting odd. So if this thing plays pretty well (not perfect, like I said the low register isn't great) in tune in the key of B, we are thinking this is very, very weird?

Is there something I can use to measure the actual Hz of the pitch produced when I play that I maybe able to find? Perhaps a computer program?

One of the guys that had this horn said he stacked it up next to another one of his tenors, and it didn't jump out at him as being way smaller. It also didn't look ill-fitting in a pro-tec case. It also came with a Bb tenor mouthpiece on the neck when I first got it.


I will see about getting a video of the horn being played. Having this thing around the house is beginning to feel like having a Escherian trident hanging on my wall- definitely doesn't make me feel any saner.

[Sjax20]

"Now, the Dolnets that have letters after their serial numbers are the Bel Air series. We're talking 1950 through 1970.


Saxpics, I have a (low pitch) tenor with S/N 3765C. Would you say this is a Bel Air? It indeed has some of the features of a Bel Air I think (but what exactly defines a Bel Air?), but based on this low serial number alone it is a Series II, according to http://www.saxpics.com/dolnet/index.htm. Perhaps it's a bit off-topic here in this thread, so I better refer to another thread where I posted some questions about the age of my Dolnet and uploaded some pictures:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=52096

[AmSaxPlayer]

I'm pretty sure the horn isn't tuned to B, but instead just can be put pretty close with the right mouthpiece. Also, sorry if my last post seemed aggressive or offensive, I really didn't intend for it to sound that way.


Is there something I can use to measure the actual Hz of the pitch produced when I play that I maybe able to find? Perhaps a computer program?


If import a note into Matlab or Mathmatica, you can use the FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) function to find the frequencies (though you'll see the entire frequency spectrum, not just the main frequency), though I'm sure there is an easier way (I've seen a bunch of tuners that actually displayed frequency as well as note).

[abadcliche]

I'm pretty sure the horn isn't tuned to B, but instead just can be put pretty close with the right mouthpiece.


That is what I think this is. When I called it a B tenor, I should have put an approriate emoticon, perhaps one of these: :dazed: :error: :mumum: :angry4: :banghead: :crybaby: :dontknow: , but it was mostly in a "d'oh" sentiment.

It does play very close though.

[Pete]

First, Matt, thanks very much for sharing all of this. You definitely proved my theory about dates and HP wrong. I will update my website to reflect that in the near future.

Sorry that everyone else started piling on you after I mentioned that your horn isn't pitched in B. Also, as said, if it is, I'll get the Holy Water.

With my Korg CA-20, I can tune to various frequencies and it'll say what note I'm playing -- in concert pitch, of course. However, it only goes from 430 to 449hz. I *assume* a more expensive Korg tuner can go higher.

Another option is a synthesizer. A lot of them can also tune to a different frequency.

================

Second, Sjsax20, as far as I have been aware, Dolnets with a letter in the serial number are from the "Bel Air" series -- with two exceptions: the curved soprano and sopranino are quite probably made by a different company and they do have odd serial numbers.

I took a look at your tenor at http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=456643&postcount=36
And that's a Bel Air model.

I think one of three things in your case:
a. The serial number is mis-stamped.
b. The serial number is just fine and some early Dolnets with "C" meant "multiply this serial number by 100".
c. You've misread the serial number :).

As I've said many times, if the serial number doesn't match what you think the model should be, go by the model.

[bruce bailey]

Has the neck been checked for length. It could be from another horn/brand, cut down by someone or just too doggone short. If you tune the horn to A=457 or so, is it in tune within the scale?

[Sjax20]

I think one of three things in your case:
a. The serial number is mis-stamped.
b. The serial number is just fine and some early Dolnets with "C" meant "multiply this serial number by 100".
c. You've misread the serial number :).


Or perhaps:
d. The first digit is covered by that post :shock:

927

But I don't think I'll remove it to have a look. I'm not that curious :)

[milandro]

the mistery thickens here too (as I said before)

I don't think that there is any acrimony from anybody here, we are all just being really interested in this very rare situation.

Whatever it is there will be a way to test this horn there are only three possibilities:
A: A Normal Tenor which plays really off key but pretty constantly and borders being in the Key of B
B: A HP tenor which plays ok but where players (unconsciously) continuosly adjust their embrochure to make it play as close as possible to a tone they know.
C: The one and only, B tenor which was built , in secret, as an experiment by Dolnet ( otherwise not known as an experimental company.

With regards to Saxpics (thanking him for the great job he does and which became the reference site worldwide in order to identify saxophones).
I am absolutely positive that I've owned a alto HP 35xxx (I haven't got it anymore but , if necessary I can go to see the new owner and take some pictures) and that it was identical to my later tenor horn 695xxC.

Both had no " Bel Air" written on them bt they sure are identical to all the models which are defined as to be " Bel Air". The only difference I can detect is the pearls on top of the guards being some sort of dark red laquer on the old HP alto and being mother of pearl in the later Tenor.

I see several Dolnets in music shops and being offered in Holland and Belgium. It was a very common horn in the past, more in the silver or nickel (curiously, as it must have been cheaper when new, this is less common) than gold laquered or gold plated. Baritones are widely appreciated (I recently saw a Bass at a concert, which looked strangely Dolnet-ian).

[abadcliche]

I think it is choice B. The horn is slightly stubbier than other tenors- although not grossly so. It plays pretty easily in the key of B, and that is where I think people are unconsciously making it play. When I got it home the last time, I put my mouthpiece on the cork to around its normal spot for me, and starting playing some scales and arpeggios, I'm sure making various adjustments to my embouchure for support and intonation. When I checked a tuner, my middle C was a concert B.

I have since checked the tuner by making my metronome play an A440, and the tuner indeed showed it to be an A.

It is otherwise an odd horn in two ways- nickel plated finish, which I didn't know many Bel Airs to come in. Also it has the normal Dolnet engraving on the bow and bell EXCEPT for the Dolnet name, where instead some obviously different engraver put "L Firma Maheu Gent" in a very heavy hand at a later date.

[milandro]

Dolnet in their nickel plate version are not as uncommon as one might think, but that is in Europe, of course, in countries such as France, Belgium, Germany and last but not least Holland. In the various AD sections (even more than on a E-bay, which in Holland lays mostly idle....) of several second-hand sites they regularly show up (in the last few hours two showed up on http://www.marktplaats.nl (can't post a link to the specific ad because the system doesn't show it as a specific link) an M70 and a Bel Air (or Series II).

There are records of several stencils Dolnet made for several Brandnames, on this site there is a Martin (french shop or importer) Dolnet. In this instace the saxophone was probably sold by a Belgian company or shop in Gand (french name), Gent (flamish name), Firma means firm, company.

[Pinnman]

The Dolnet Royal Jazz alto I used to own - serial number 46XXX - did not have any letters after the number (I checked the photos I still have). No problems with pitch that I was ever aware of.

The lack of a letter suffix ties in with saxpics' statement about Bel Airs.

[Sax Hut]

I've seen a 50xxxC Royal Jazz tenor. Yep, with the C suffix.

[milandro]

I wonder if the french speaking part of the forum has more information on the Dolnet in general and in particular on this matter of the letters in the Serial ID. I am not at all convinced of their significance when it comes to HP or LP (although it is odd that there would be no way to telle them apart...). It would be ever so nice if a bi-lingual member of this forum would ask the French-speaking community to enlighten us on this matters (and others).

[AmSaxPlayer]

Whatever it is there will be a way to test this horn there are only three possibilities:
A: A Normal Tenor which plays really off key but pretty constantly and borders being in the Key of B
B: A HP tenor which plays ok but where players (unconsciously) continuosly adjust their embrochure to make it play as close as possible to a tone they know.
C: The one and only, B tenor which was built , in secret, as an experiment by Dolnet ( otherwise not known as an experimental company.


The best way to describe it is: "In other words, if you hear hoof beats, you just go ahead and think horsies and not zebras." :salute:

[SAXISMYAXE]

AmSaxPlayer,

I'm going to have to remember that quote!:D

[milandro]

another Dolnet Tenor HP just appeared on the Dutch site Marktplaats.....this one is sold by a shop.....they also must have discovered it was HP only just after overhauling it.....it seems to be a common mistake!

[bruce bailey]

Buy a book of duets.

[milandro]

Buy a book of duets.

That would be a great idea If I were to buy this one and get back the other one I gave away:twisted: but then again....... I am only half-witt the other half is preventing me doing so ;)

[Meyer]

I just bought that HP Dolnet for sale in Marketplaas.

It has triggered my brain, why would any one build a high pitch saxophone in the 1950´s. It has the diamond shaped braze to the bell, so it is a late Bel-Air.

If it is high pitch, it must smaller than a tenor......

Anyway, it goes into my collection, as a late high pitch.

Regards

Meyer

[milandro]

If it is high pitch, it must smaller than a tenor......
Anyway, it goes into my collection, as a late high pitch.


The advert actually says, in Dutch, that the horn is slightly smaller than a ordinary tenor. Like my alto was just slightly smaller than a LP one.

Why would anybody build a HP saxophone in the 50's? But was it built in 1950?


We have been discussing this at length in a couple of topics but what I suppose it has happened is that the war years must have frozen a considrable stock of High Pitch intstuments (or at least of body tubes) at Dolnet factory which after the war were marketed (remember there are no official charts for Donlet instrument so most charts are based on guesses or anecdotes) targeting it especially to the marching band market. In this sort of trade Dolnet was particularly good and suited to provide a whole marching band with the complete lot of brass and woodwinds because , unlike most other companies, they built them all , this explains also the high serial numbers because they were numbering all their instruments with the same set of serial mumbers.

I think it has been established that the function of the letters in the serial numbers is not exactly clear but it was not associated to HP or LP identifications. Did they have anyway, other than the length to tell them apart? Nobody , until now, really knows.


Dolnets are really very common in the Netherlands and the fact that marching bands using HP instruments survived in the Netherlands until the late seventies must account for the relative high frequency of finds like this.

This particular horn you've bought, comes from a shop which is selling it for very little after re-hauling it, as the advert says, It is evident that the price doesn't even cover the cost of re-hauling it! So they must think that they are into a damages limitation sale, they wouldn't do that if they were not convinced that the horn was otherwise sellable, would they?

Probably they bumped into a cheap horn which was given to them in part exchange, done it up because there are no HP horns built after 1929 are they? Sold it to someone who later returned it with a rather angry look on his face.........

Very honest of them to sell it as HP though!;)

[Meyer]

Thank you for your answer!

Quote:
Originally posted by milandro
Dolnets are really very common in the Netherlands and the fact that marching bands using HP instruments survived in the Netherlands until the late seventies must account for the relative high frequency of finds like this.

That might be the answer, that there was a late market for HP saxophones in the Netherlands, and as you say Dolnets are very common in the Netherlands, it could have been that Dolnets kept producing HP for the Netherlands only.

Kind regards

Meyer

[milandro]

That might be the answer, that there was a late market for HP saxophones in the Netherlands, and as you say Dolnets are very common in the Netherlands, it could have been that Dolnets kept producing HP for the Netherlands only.


I seriously doubt that Dolnet would have been keeping a " production line" only for the Netherlands......I think that it is much more likely that they were just getting rid (and it took obviously a fex years) of some old stock which was laying about at the factory and by the way , if this is true, it was only possible because France was occupied very early in the war years and never really had the need to runsack the metal sources as all the other nations which took part in the war did (on one side or the other).
It would be very nice to exchange idea about this with the French speaking forum, maybe someone there has more and better information on Dolnet and on the mysterious post war HP horns which seem to appear every now and then. Belgium, obviously France and perhaps Germany seem to have a high density of Dolnets.

Kind regards
André;)

[Grumpie]

milandro, I like your idea about the HP availabillity because of the marching and community bands overhere (Netherlands and maybe Belgium) still playing pre-war pitch. I checked our archives and there was a switch to common pitch in the early seventies. I also did an anniversary concert with another comm. band last year and they still had some HP instruments available, they don't use them anymore ofcourse but for this concert they had a small ensemble play a tune with these instruments. The tune was taken over by the rest of the band and we played several measures together so the audiance could hear these instruments were hard to play together.

[milandro]

Hi Grumpie! This confirms the data available on several Dutch Marching Bands sites! Also explains why these intruments appear every now and again (someone dies, the relatives find the horn and sell it on...) on the second hand market. I tell you there is no ID to tell HP Dolnet from LP so always bring a tuner with you if you buy one. It would be nice to get in touch with the Dutch importer of this company if there are still records there about this HP and LP matter and learn more about it.

[Grumpie]

I will try if there is something available in the financial archives, I doubt but no harm in looking. Maybe there is some interesting info there. Since it's common practice here that almost all the instruments used in marching and community band are owned by the bands and provided to the members there should be some records there. (First I have to find out wether Dolnets were used and if not who knows what other brands I can come across, could even be there were no saxes used until the seventies)

[Meyer]

Producing a HP tenor saxophone, is not only a matter of some old stock. All rods has to be slightly shorter than the LP model, as the distance between the toneholes is shorter. So producing a HP saxophone would require a different production line. In a small company like Dolnet, they must have had some sort of identification to see wheter it was to a LP and HP.

Could it be that the post is soldered onto the serial number if it is a HP?

I will see if mine has the same "identification" when I get it next week.

Regards

Meyer

[awholley]

I seem to be in the minority here, but this sounds like a Dolnet C-melody to me.

1) the "C" in the serial number
2) Wouldn't a C-melody sound around B if the mouthpiece were too big (i.e. a tenor mouthpiece)? Seems like you should try a C-melody mouthpiece or shove a tenor mouthpiece on far enough that it sounds concert C when you finger a written C.

Alan

[Meyer]

I can tell you later, I have a C-melody in my collection, and C mouthpiece, so I can compare the two "specimens"

Regards

Meyer

[milandro]

it is not a C-melody, we have discussed the issue of Dolnets serial numbers and the HP at length and there are C serial numbers horns in all sorts of category.

The Identification of these horns to be HP has been positive in several cases, one being my alto. A C-melody is also very easy to spot because, OK, it might be more or less the length of a Tenor Bb but the bore is very close to the one of a Alto. Anyway, you will soon see for yourself.

Meyer do you have a Dolnet C-melody? I have never seen or heard there was one. B.t.w. C-Melodies were mostly if not entirely an American thing.

[Meyer]

No, my C-melody is Buescher.
I have never heard of an european c-melody.

Kind regards
Meyer

[Little Sax]

No, my C-melody is Buescher.
I have never heard of an european c-melody.

Kind regards
Meyer

Although they're rare, Selmer-Paris did make some. It's my understanding that Paul Coats has Selmer Cmel that is keyed to Low-A.

[milandro]

Producing a HP tenor saxophone, is not only a matter of some old stock. All rods has to be slightly shorter than the LP model, as the distance between the toneholes is shorter. So producing a HP saxophone would require a different production line. In a small company like Dolnet, they must have had some sort of identification to see wheter it was to a LP and HP.

Could it be that the post is soldered onto the serial number if it is a HP?

I will see if mine has the same "identification" when I get it next week.

Regards

Meyer




the C in the serial number is a red herring you are being confused by it, read other topics about the same subject where we have already discussed this matter of serial numbers, there are horns with a C which are not HP and horns without letters which are HP (I had one, a alto). My High pitched alto had no post soldered onto the SN. Like this horn Meyer bought and the other one which started the whole topic they have no identification as to be a HP, whether you believe it or not, and the presence of these horns on the market explains the bad press about the Dolnets being of a bad intonation nature (while otherwise of outstanding quality), there are reports of people who are so in command of their embochure being able to play in tune (or close to it) HP instruments (someone somewhere else claims he knows a soprano player doing it), I couldn't and went crazy trying to understand was was wrong with me for a while until my teacher ( a man of superb technique and intonation with a past experience as repair man, one of the most qualified in Amsterdam) did some tests and then saying " I know what's going on here" he held the horn against another alto pointing out that it had a smaller bore and that it was shorter!



BY the way I quote from Sacpics site on buying vintage horns
"....Fortunately, Martin and Conn horns are labeled "L" or "Low Pitch." Bueschers are not. King/HN White horns occasionally are. Buffet/Evette & Schaeffer horns sometimes are. Adolphe Sax horns are not. ......." so you see there are many unmarked HP horns out there and in this Dolnet wasn't the only one! :D

[milandro]

always for those who like the HP horns in relation to the puzzle of HP vs. LP, another HP horn on Marktplaats ( Dutch secondhand site) it is a Bariton (search " hoge stemming") sold together with a LP bariton, the HP is obviously Later than the LP (which has two octaves keys), I don't think this is a Dolnet......

[milandro]

.....and, sadly, one more HP Dolnet alto found in Holland!

Serie 65XXXX it belongs to a friend of mine ( as a matter of fact we got to know each other because of this horn. I had seen it before but didn't dare buying it because of a previous experience with a HP Dolnet Alto) .

He gave it to me to play and I found strange pitch peculiarities (the funny thing is that I had seen it before and it seem to check with a tuner but it wasn't entirely playable back then)

Anyway the horn is about 5 cm (roughly) shorter than other altos I have !
The previous owner was the original person who purchased this horn new in 1965 in a Dutch shop (so much for the common knowledge that HP disappeared in 1939....).

I don't even know if the pitch is such that A=457 Hz.

[bubblegirlsax]

But if the horn is in-tune with notes -- just half-step high each time -- does it play in tune if music is transposed as if it's a B instrument? I'm thinking a student may appreciate this because they wouldn't hit so many dreaded sharps or flats. They'd just transpose differently -- right?

S.

[Mal 2]

If a HP instrument can be wrestled into playing a full semitone sharp, it could make a great pairing with the corresponding LP instrument, much the way a matched set of A and Bb clarinets are regarded. Or you could just pawn it off on eBay as "Tenor saxophone in B Natural -- ULTRA RARE BUY NOW YOU MAY NEVER SEE ONE LIKE THIS AGAIN!!!!!11!1!oneone":twisted:

[bubblegirlsax]

if I was healthy, I'd buy one in B natural. Having to transpose to Bb or Eb always means lots of sharps and flats. B natural would only have one or two, right?

[milandro]

no, it doesn't work this way you will always be too sharp the higher you go and too low the lower you go. To be able to play a HP horn in tune (either by lipping up and down or tuning half a note up) is the hope of everyone who bought by mistake a HP instrument but unfortunately doesn't work that way and they all (I did) soon(er or later) find out . You can tune one note to the effect that it plays the pitch that is supposed to play or half a step higher but the horn won't be in tune with itself. If was that easy there wouldn't be any problem, and obviously (even leaving the science aside , common and empiric knowledge will tell you) there is one.

Really, when you put a HP horn next to a normally pitched horn you see that it is impossible to make the two play together since their physical dimensions are so different (wind and brass sound is all about length of tubing).

[bubblegirlsax]

Ah ok. My Largo thankfully does not have this syndrome. I play along to MIDI files all the time and it sounds very in tune. Although, I am prepared for you guys to disagree when I post some recordings. The man who sells these (Noel) is a violinist so his hearing would be perfect for when he tested these.

S.

[milandro]

Good for you Bubblegirlsax! But for all the others who are buying vintage saxophones , be very careful! The thing is not that Dolnets have to be avoided at all costs, on the contrary, they can be great horns but it is a pity (as it happened both to me and to my friend) to first buy something wrong and then spend money on a overhaul of an instrument that you can only play by yourself or with a guitar.

[whaler]

Ah ok. My Largo thankfully does not have this syndrome. I play along to MIDI files all the time and it sounds very in tune. Although, I am prepared for you guys to disagree when I post some recordings. The man who sells these (Noel) is a violinist so his hearing would be perfect for when he tested these.

S.

Ideally, his hearing should be perfect, but this usually more like the case; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmPgNzHZUpY

[bubblegirlsax]

Ideally, his hearing should be perfect, but this usually more like the case; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmPgNzHZUpY

LOL oh dear! I could only imagine this happening in real life.

I'm not concerned with Noel however, as he played in the army in a regimented situation. You wouldn't get away with bad pitch there! Lots of people have bought his custom violins (he is busy with them day in and out!) and have reported impressed teachers and students.

His ebay feedback is very good considering they are "cheap" instruments. The few people that were unsatisfied (and that's very few) with their instruments were consoled by easy refunds. That's why I suggested the Largo for beginners. They can buy one, and have peace of mind that if their teacher doesn't like it, they can return it. Very few places would be so kind as to do this. When he even offered a refund if I had an allergic reaction (which even fewer sellers do) I knew I'd found a caring winner of a seller.

Hence my inability to stop recommending his products. Students would be much happier if these Largo were the most-bought "cheap" saxophones, rather than the other brands of total disaster. You can get the funky colours and digestable price tag without a tragic horn behind it.

S.