Reed drilling

[PeterT]

I've read somewhere about drilling a hole in your reed. Can anyone tell me why, where and what size hole. Sounds interesting.

[MonchMan]

Here is all thats fit to print :D

http://www.geocities.com/reed_drilling/

[PeterT]

Thank you MonchMan. That link told me everything I wanted to know about reed drilling. Think I'll spring for a drill press and experiment. The wealth of info by everyone on SOTW is really impressive. Thanks again.

[Bryan Kendall]

I use it on my soprano and my tenor saxophone reeds and it works....I don´t know how......but it definitely works on ALL my reeds.

My extreme upper and lower speak with great ease now.

Thanks Bootman!

[Bootman]

1/4" Router bit for a flat bottomed hole. you can use larger but it makes no difference to the end result.

[SaxMBB]

Does drilling work for fibracells?

[Balladeer]

BTW, reed drilling works when done by hand. I take a small, flat-blade screw driver and gently, but firmly, rotate it in-place. Though the result doesn't look as nice as with a drill press, it works. Be sure not to press too hard or go too deep.

[Bill Mecca]

I usually play fibracells, used to play Charpen, that came drilled. I picked up a Dremel and a 1/4" router bit, have done a couple reeds, some Vandoren and some plasticover. I never did a before and after, until recently, had a stiff plasticover, the next size softer was too soft for alt, so I took the stuffy one, drilled a quick hole and viola! it played great.

I haven't drilled fibracells, I fear opening up the coating would let the cellulose inside get wet and kill the reed, plus they play great for me out of the box. I have been recently playing baritone fibracells on tenor, and have a 4 that might need some drilling, but won't try that for a while, (the 3.5's are playing great)

[Frank D]

I have drilled Fibracells, and it does work, although it smells like heck, unless you enjoy a smell very much like burning plastic or rubber!

Am also using the Dremel tool setup. There's a nice drill press accessory for the dremel that you can get for cheap, I think I'm into the whole thing for under $50 bucks.

[justbari]

Has anyone drilled BARI plastic reeds?

[Media Lint]

I tried it with a dremel and it worked ok. I'm going to craft a jig one of these days and try it again since we have a drill press.

I didn't find a major benefit but it did improve a couple reeds that were too stiff.

[Media Lint]

Er, that said I never tried the drill press, so maybe there is a major benefit I will still have to find out.

[Roger Aldridge]

HOLY SMOKE!!!! I just tried Bootman's reed drilling method on some of my Alexander Classique reeds and I just can't get over the difference. Man, it takes my c-melody to a whole new level! Projection and resonse are so much more alive that it feels like I'm playing an ALTO rather than a c-melody. I'm still shaking my head in amazement.

Now, I didn't use a drill. I don't have a good place around the house to set up the kind of drill that Bootman uses. So, I simply used a flathead screwdriver, like Balladeer, to dig out a hole as best as I could. I then smoothed it out with a swiss army knife and Runyon reed rush. Ya can't get much more primitive than this! Never the less, I'm definitely convinced about the benefits of reed drilling! :lol:

For those of you who are serious reed drillers, do you think there would be much difference in one's sound between doing the reed drilling with a real drill and the simple tools I'm using? Please let me know your opinion. I think that I'll go by the hardware store tomorrow and see if I can find a hand drill (rather than an electric one) to help give me a cleaner and faster hole.

Have any of you guys tried reed drilling on clarinet reeds? If so, how did it work out? I'll have to give it a try.

Man, this is really cool!!!! I'm bowing down in Bootman's direction. :lol:

[Bootman]

Provided that the hole is smooth, the method used to achieve the hole doesn't seem to matter too much. I have found that the flat hole works better than a rounded hole. I use a drill press for expediency, it is very quick and easy to drill a whole box.

Glad to hear that your C melody is playing better with a drilled reed.

Drilling plasticover reeds works exceptionally well too.

[Steve J.]

Roger -
Don't hesitate to drill away on clarinet reeds..... same difference.

I have invested in a high speed Dremel tool and drill press stand. Disregarding ease of use, I find something positive responsewise with Dremel use.

I am guessing the heat resulting from high speed somehat cauterizes or seals area pores during the drilling. My guess is similiar results can happen with a polishing sans drill.

[Roger Aldridge]

I got myself a plain hand drill and some bits from the hardware store. It seems to work fine. I simply tape a reed to the desk, put the bit in place on the reed, turn the crank a couple of times, smooth off the hole with the Runyon reed rush, and I'm done. Quick and easy!

I also tried drilling some clarinet reeds today. For them I used a smaller bit -- 3/16". It seemed to me that a 1/4" would be way too big for the smaller reed. I simply guessed at the 3/16" size. If anyone has a better recommendation please let me know.

The drilled reeds have the affect of super-charging my clarinet. I have a set up that I'm really happy with: Morgan RM28 mouthpiece, Alexander Classique reeds, and a silver FL lig on a Patricola clarinet. But, the drilled Classique reeds allow it to play even better. I'm a happy camper!

[justbari]

Well, I've drilled 6 cane reeds plus one BARI plastic reed. I've noticed these things so far:

1. Drilling to the same depth doesn't produce the same result on the same type of reed.

2. You really need to make sure the hold is centered.

3. If you use a really sharp router bit there will be no need for hand finishing. All my reeds had a really nice clean cut.

4. The bit will skate around if you lower the drill press to fast. Take your time and it will give you a great hole.

5. A good way to judge depth is to hold the reed up to the light and compare the "see-throughness" with various areas of the reed (the tip and sides...). If it's as see-through as the very tip, you've probably gone too far (at least that was my experiencel).


I was pretty happy with 4 of 6 reeds that I drilled. It made the low notes easier and the high notes sounded great.


justbari

[Bootman]

Roger,
I just use the 1/4" flat bottom Router bit for all reeds. I may try a smaller router bit in the future but as the result is pretty well uniform across the board, Clarinet, Sop, Bass or Bari sax.... Try it out for yourself.

Try a drilled plasticover too, very interesting result are being had here with these reeds.

[Roger Aldridge]

Bootman,

Thanks! I'll give that a try. This reed drilling method of yours is really impressive.

[Frank D]

Doesn't drilling a Plasticover reed defeat the purpose of the coating, i.e. to seal out moisture so the reed doesn't get waterlogged or warped?

[Joseph Boucher]

Son-of-a-gun, I still can't believe it. It works!!! Bootman, your real genius.

[Bill Mecca]

Doesn't drilling a Plasticover reed defeat the purpose of the coating, i.e. to seal out moisture so the reed doesn't get waterlogged or warped?

I don't think it would be any worse that drilling a fibracell, if that coating is broken and the cellulose inside gets wet the reed just stops working. I have one do that at the tip, get three notes and then QUACK.. I wouldn't think that part of the reed (hole area) would get that wet.

I've drilled a Plasticover and it works, I havent used it enough to give it a fair "wetness test." I prefer Fibracells.

[Bootman]

The surface area of the reed that is affected most by moisture is the flat area over the window of the mpc. The hole area never never gets waterlogged unless you're a very wet player. Even so, you can get 1 1/2 to 2 months out of a plasticover reed instead of half a gig out a RJS or La Voz. If you place aPlasticover on a big mpc, you get warmth and projection.

If you're really worried about the sealing of the plastic over the reed in a plasticover then you can paint nail varinish of the hole and it will remain sealed. Personally, I'm not worried about it because with getting a month and a half out of plasticover and playing the horn every day of the week, I am laughing all the way to the bank. The other advantage is that it gives me even more volume out of the horn, very useful when playing in an electric band on Baritone.

Tenor:
Ponzol Modified M2 120 with a Plasticover drilled 3 1/2on a Buescher Aristocrat is a very flexible set-up, loud or soft and dark or bright from the one set-up.

Baritone:
Lamberson 8DD with a drilled plasticover 3 1/2 on a Conn Tranny bari is the biggest meanest Bari sound I have ever been able to find.

Runyon Jaguar #14 with a #2 1/2 Plasticover or Drilled reed is a very nice contemporary sounding set-up on a The Martin tenor witha Gloger solid silver neck.

For a more subtle and flexible sound, the Runyon Jaguar #14 with a Plasticover 3 is a very warm sound with plenty of projection. I feel that this will play exceptionally on the Martin Magna Baritone.

Drilled Plasticovers also add power and presence to Morgan Baritone mpcs too.

[SuiZen]

I just purchased a router bit, and I'm ready to try reed drilling.

What's the recommended drill press speed?

I guess it can be slow, since some have had success with hand drilling.

Bill

[Steve J.]

I use maximum speed. I feel quite manly. :)

[Bootman]

I set my drill press at the third slowest speed, this is the middle ground on my drill press.

[Vortex]

Make sure to sand off the edges once you drill the hole... OUCH!!! SPLINTER ALERT!!!

[justbari]

I used a 1/4" flat router bit and as long as you start the hole slowly it makes a beautifully smooth cut. Absolutely no rough edges....

[Vortex]

If you want an INCREDIBLY edgy toned reed, try drilling a rico royal 2 - 2 1/2 about 5/8 of the way through. Makes a very distinct sound (if you don't have strong chops, not unlike that of a 7th grader squeaking and popping all over the place)

[Vortex]

One question for Bootman: I'm using a 1/4" router bit, but when I drill the hole it makes sort of a half-dome shape facing outward inside the hole. Does it make a difference whether or not this nipple is present? Because if it does, i'm either gonna have to go get another bit or spend a lot of time cutting it until it's flat inside the hole. By the way, the drill thing works wonderfully.

[jazzmasta123]

Well i have looked everywhere for this 1/4" Router Bit and i cannot seem to find one. Could someone please give we a web site that sells them.

[Bootman]

These router bits are available at most Hardware shops here, usually as part of a kit. Find a big hardware shop and see what they have.

[MojoBari]

Its one of the most common sizes. Sears, Home Depot, any store that sells routers.

[shmuelyosef]

One question for Bootman: I'm using a 1/4" router bit, but when I drill the hole it makes sort of a half-dome shape facing outward inside the hole. Does it make a difference whether or not this nipple is present? Because if it does, i'm either gonna have to go get another bit or spend a lot of time cutting it until it's flat inside the hole. By the way, the drill thing works wonderfully.

It is important that you buy a bit that is made for "plunge routers"...these are designed to be 'plunged' (duh) into the material. Most routers and bits today are that way as plunge routers are the most popular today. Used to be all routers were used by coming in sideways and so the cutters only needed to be at the outer diameter. When you plunge these, they burn in the middle and cut the edge. Plunge router bits have cutters on the end all the way to the middle.

...sorry for the anal detail...I build furniture...

[Alto_Sax_Guy]

"if you don't have strong chops, not unlike that of a 7th grader squeaking and popping all over the place" I will just pretend I didn't hear that and go back to playing. (I'm in 7th grade)[/quote]

[shmuelyosef]

You can get the following from www.jesada.com and it will work very well and leave a splinter-free top edge on the hole as it cuts downward...works great for me:

880-010 S/CARBIDE DOWNCUT SPIRAL BIT

Shank = 1/4"
Cutter diam. = 1/4"
Cutter height = 3/4"
Overall length = 2-1/2"

Price: $12.90

[kcp]

http://www.kimcpelletier.com/doodles/reedril.jpg (http://www.kimcpelletier.com/doodles/reedrilling.jpg)
Click (http://www.kimcpelletier.com/doodles/reedrilling.jpg)

PS: By no means does this intends to discredit the practice and virtues of reed drilling; this is just a humorous vision of this practice. :D

[MojoBari]

Kim, your work kills me! I love that sop sax left behind on the old forum.

[Mike Ruhl]

:lol: :lol: :lol: That's a classic!

Kim - may I use that image on the "Reed Drilling" web page?

www.geocities.com/reed_drilling/

[kcp]

...may I use that image on the "Reed Drilling" web page?

Sure! go ahead 8)

Mojo: Yeah that sop is my favorite too. One can't help but feel sorry for the poor thing. I wonder if it's still on the old forum tho... gonna go check.

[Mike Ruhl]

Thanks Kim.

[Bill Mecca]

Very cool Kim,

You are very talented!
(it's now set as one of my rotating desktop images)

[Sigmund451]

Well, what have I got to loose. Im gonna go try this maddness if all you say it works. I will post my result. I dont have a drill press so Im gonna improvise with what I can find in the garage.

[Mike W]

Absolutely great cartoon! Thanks Kim!

[sabritas]

what kind of hand drill do you guys use. I spent a while at the hardware store and was able to find the 1/4 in router but when put in the hand powered drill it would rotate off center. maybe it was just a cheap drill.

a flat head screw driver works? hmm. maybe I'll try that. the guy at the hardware store said a puncher might work. He took a paint stirrer and hammer and smashed a hole in it. "See its a quarter inch, perfect!"

I have to take a deep breath when I think of all the time I spend thinking about the sax.

[jazzbluescat]

I bought a Craftsman 9" drill press and 1/4" router bit for $100 at Sears, on sale, two weeks ago.

[Vortex]

Drill presses are definately the way to go. Hand drills are too inaccurate and unwieldy, you really need stability when drilling. Totally controlled depth and angle.

[orions_belt27]

hm, ok so how deep should i drill the hole in?

[MonchMan]

Bootman says to leave about 2 mm of reed at the bottom of the hole. I use 2 dimes, that is approxmatlly 2mm, to set the depth of the drill press.

[MARTINW]

What part of the reed should be drilled and how deep should you go?

[jazzbluescat]

Check it out, MARTINW:

http://www.geocities.com/reed_drilling/

[MojoBari]

Visit the web site link above in meruhl's post.

[rlowenote]

I haven't seen any recent comments on reed drilling.

When I first noticed this thread I thought this was a new technique. Now I've just seen what appear to be "vintage" (older looking box) Charpen reeds in wrappers and they are drilled!

When did this modification originate??

[Mike Ruhl]

Hard to say. Probably a very long time ago - like maybe the 19th century. Seriously.

[Sigmund451]

I have spoken to Dave at Junkdude and he states that he has purchased very old instruments with vintage drilled reeds left on mouthpieces and in cases so it is an older practice. I have not the tools to do it well but when I messed with it I have to say I had minimal results. Its very possible I did it improperly since so many reports great results. I may give it a try sometime if I find someone with the right equipment. Im not going to run out and buy a press if its not going to make a big difference.

[Bill Mecca]

I've heard of guys doing it with a flat bladed screwdriver... or a Dremel (which is what I have) but since I use synth reeds it's not much of an issue. I did drill a Bari baritone reed with m inimal results. i don't think it works as well on synth reeds, it did have more impressive results on Plasticovers.

[Mike Cesati]

[Sigmund451]

I tried it the other day with a screw driver and cleaned it up a bit. Frankly I couldnt say that there was a significant difference. I think I went plenty deep. I guess its not all psychological but I have not seen the benefit yet.

[wthalliii]

I had seen Bootman's reed drilling page a couple of years ago and filed it away to try later. Never got around to it, though, until recently. I first played a new reed without drilling, then drilled it and tried it again. Wow! It made a mediocre reed into a great reed! I tried some old reeds that were at the end of their useful life, and it brought them back to life. So, I went out and got the drill press attachment for my Dremel, and I've been drilling reeds ever since. It works great on my sop., alto, C mel, and bari.

Thanks, Bootman!

[Sigmund451]

Ok, I happily admitt defeat. Drilling does make a difference, I suppose I was not going deep enough or something. I picked up a cheap tabletop drill press from Horrible Freight (Harbor Freight) and a router bit. I have to affirm that two things are true and Im not sure exactly about what to do with these observations that stand in opposition to one another.

1. Drilling does open up the bottom end to allow it to speak more freey and with less effort.

2. Drilling an OLD UNDRILLED reed that sounds dead seems to put life back into the reed and make it usable again.

So the quandry is you can use it for one or the other, not both. Use it to make playing easier (obviously the smarter of the two ideas) or use it to extend the life of reeds and save cash.

So my question would be, is there a way to get the best of both worlds? Once a reed is drilled and it plays a bit dead are there other methods to bring life back into the reed (since you cant redrill it). Does trimming the reed tip extend life. It would seem possible as it would move the relative vibrational points to a different are of the reed and thus create different frequencies in areas that have been "vibrated out" on specific frequencies. Additionally, tip would be fresh. What says the reed experts and shed scientists?

[MojoBari]

Have you seen the reed adjustment chart from the Larry Teal book? It is reproduced on the Sax Gormet site. It has adjustment recommendations for various problems.

I have occassionaly used reed drilling. It is similar to scraping the same area thinner with a reed knife or pocket knife.

[Sigmund451]

Ive seen that but I was under the impression that this has to do with reasonably fresh reeds that need work. Recent experience with reed drilling actually rejuvinated some of the reeds that were pretty played out, for how long I cant say yet. Will working with that chart liven up older reeds that otherwise would be chucked? I wont play on junk, but conversely, I dont want to toss something before its truely trash.

[Vortex]

A reed will only play for so long. Drilling it helps, but I think asking for much more is just being greedy/lazy. You could try Bootman's file technique, but there's really only so much you can do to a reed. Look through the forum for more info.

[Sigmund451]

Greedy yes, Lazy no...Im willing to work to support my greed 8)

[MojoBari]

I think the chart can be used during a reed's life, but not after it. Same with reed drilling.

[Kareeser]

Boy.. all this "reed"ing, and now I want to try...

But I'm only a poor student and can't afford something to do the drilling for me...

Nor do I even know what "Dutch Rush/Reed Rush", is.

If I tried doing it to a reed with a flatbed screwdriver, and then sanded it down, would it still work as well?

[Sigmund451]

You can use fine grit sandpaper in place of dutch rush. I sand with about 600, and polish with 1500. A screwdriver will work but takes a little more skill. Try on your junk reeds first. Go down till you can see light...kind of like the thinkness of the reed a quarter inch from the tip.

[Dog Pants]

Don't waste your time trying to find Dutch Rush. Useful as tits on a Bull. A Swiss Army knife, wet and dry sandpaper and a decent light source are all I've ever used. With practice, the whole reed prep thing should take a couple of minutes tops. I've seen Bootman do it dozens of times, and (play testing aside) he gets the whole job done in a very short time. Mind you, he's done it a million times.

[Vortex]

Dutch Rush isn't bad, it's good for very fine adjustments, but on the whole it's worth about as much as dental floss at a Willie Nelson concert (and if you know where to buy it you can get a lifetime supply for about $10 USD). I drill most reeds, sand with 400 grit, polish with backside, balance w/Swiss army knife.

[Anonymous]

Once a reed is drilled and it plays a bit dead are there other methods to bring life back into the reed (since you cant redrill it). Does trimming the reed tip extend life.

I recently tried burning the tip of an old, soft reed - rather than trimming with a reed clipper. I don't know why - but it really did seem to work better. I take a coin of the approximate right curve (A US quarter works well for soprano, I use a NZ 50 cent piece for tenor and bari). Hold the coin on the tip (on the flat part) with a small amount of reed hanging over. Use a lighter to burn the end off. You have a black edge and it stinks like smoking reefer and the curve won't be a perfect match to your mouthpiece -- but the reed will surprise you with how well it plays.

[Kareeser]

Reed burning? Sounds like something I'd do to my collection of bad high school reeds.

Has anyone else tried that?

[Anonymous]

It would take you all of 2 minutes to try it for yourself and find out if it works for you.

It isn't as pretty as a reed clipper job but I really think it works better. It isn't a new idea -- it is an old trick for when you don't have a clipper.

[Bill Mecca]

I use a NZ 50 cent piece for tenor and bari).

oh shuuurreee, use proprietary technology :lol:

this has come up off and on, and someone was marketing a tool to use it, I remember Runyon make something as well, that was cut for the different size reeds.

[sskilton]

Well being new to the world of Sax, this really is a new one on me.

Can I ask, if drilled reeds are so splended, are reeds sold in this post drilled state?

I certainly do not have the space for Bootman's rig and I dont have to confidence to try it with a screwdriver etc.

:P

[Bill Mecca]

Charpen used to sell drilled reeds. I still have a few lying around. But I think it works better to find a reed you like and drill it. I remeber the Charpens still needing some work with sandpaper. Before that there were Vibrator reeds, with slots cut in the bark.

a dremel and a flat router bit work well, even if by hand, but make a jig for it, as you can see on Bootman's page, just to save your fingers.

[Sigmund451]

SSkilton, try it on an older reed. Its not that hard.

As for burning, thats one Ive never heard....Ill try nearly anything once. Why not!

Blaine: send some New Zeland money....I perfer large denominations :wink:

[sskilton]

Thanks for that Sigmund. I never thought of that.

[tophatsax]

Runyon still has a metal "burner thingy" (my term, not theirs) in their catalog. It has a few different size curves for small to large reed sizes.