beginner reed strength question

[Exiled92]

Hi, folks. I'd really appreciate any advice the experienced teachers out there can give me.

I'm a 31-yr sax veteran, and my 6th grader is just starting on alto. I worked with her some over the summer, and now she is getting lessons through the her school. Her teacher wants her (and the other kids) to start with a Rico 3 reed. This seems to me to be pretty hard for kids who are just starting out.

Questions: Has there been some major change in embouchure pedagogy between when I started and now? (I started on 1-1/2, went pretty quickly to 2, then gradually worked my way up.) Are there benefits to this "start hard" approach that I just don't know about yet?

I have a few concerns about this. First, if it's such hard work just to get a sound, how are they going to enjoy making music? Will this lead to a higher drop-out rate? Second, when I play a reed that is too strong for me (on my particular mouthpiece), I have to compensate by doing improper things with my embouchure. How can they learn a correct embouchure if they're having to play something that is too hard for their poor little beginner chops? I don't want my daughter to learn an incorrect embouchure and then have trouble progressing later. There are other concerns, but these are the biggies.

So, what about that reed strength? Oh, and the teacher is primarily a clarinet player. Are there things I should watch for that a clarinetist might incorrectly carry over to saxophone? :?: :? :?:

[gyrofrog.com]

Her teacher wants her (and the other kids) to start with a Rico 3 reed. This seems to me to be pretty hard for kids who are just starting out

I can remember my own band teacher recommending that we use Rico #3 reeds...

...if and when there are no 2 1/2 reeds in stock!

The #3 seems excessive. I wonder if it's a way to weed out the students who aren't serious, and then switch the remaining kids to a more comfortable 2 1/2. I'm trying to give the teacher every benefit of the doubt and can't think of a good reason why beginners should start on a #3.

[Paul Coats]

I can think of no good reason either. I start students on #2's Ricos.

I have known of teachers of BEGINNERS who insist "All of my students have to play 3 1/2 Vandoren reeds. I only allow my clarinets to use Portnoy BP02 mouthpieces. My saxophones may only use Selmer C*'s."

And many of her students have difficulties. I have not heard a good, characteristic sax or clarinet tone from such teachers.

[orions_belt27]

oh my god, these are HORRIBLE things dat i'm hearing! gosh sounds like a music teacher from hell.. i can picture dat.. *shudders* haha anyway,


Her teacher wants her (and the other kids) to start with a Rico 3 reed. This seems to me to be pretty hard for kids who are just starting out.

for an absolute beginner, i think this is ridiculous. rico 3 is pretty hard for a beginner in my opinion, i started out on vandoren 2s but when i started using rico royale 3s after my embouchure got stronger, i still found those 3s pretty hard. i'm assuming the strengths for rico and rico royales are similar :)


(I started on 1-1/2, went pretty quickly to 2, then gradually worked my way up.) Are there benefits to this "start hard" approach that I just don't know about yet?


have a few concerns about this. First, if it's such hard work just to get a sound, how are they going to enjoy making music? Will this lead to a higher drop-out rate? Second, when I play a reed that is too strong for me (on my particular mouthpiece), I have to compensate by doing improper things with my embouchure. How can they learn a correct embouchure if they're having to play something that is too hard for their poor little beginner chops? I don't want my daughter to learn an incorrect embouchure and then have trouble progressing later. There are other concerns, but these are the biggies.

i personally do not know of any benefit to the 'start hard' approach. on the contrary, i believe it is a huge breeding ground for developing a wrong embouchure as u mentioned. And for young kids to appreciate music, they gotta be able to PRODUCE music first of all :) and if a hard reed is gonna deter dat, it'll just kill off their interest one and for all.

and even adults like us do wrong things with our embouchure when we use a reed too hard for our own good, so wat more your young daughter? :) and you're spot on to say dat those are biggies because everything about saxophone playing starts with the embouchure. wrecking dat would wreck every single thing dat is built upon dat shaky foundation.


So, what about that reed strength? Oh, and the teacher is primarily a clarinet player. Are there things I should watch for that a clarinetist might incorrectly carry over to saxophone?

i dunno wat you might need to watch out for because i dun play clarinet as yet, hopefully in the future but anyway, one thing's for sure is dat clarinetists have much harder embouchures which is perhaps a most likely reason why the teacher is advocating harder reeds. but he or she might have missed the point dat the clarinet embouchure and sax embouchure is so totally different. the sax embouchure needs to be way more relaxed but firm.

the only good thing i can say about the clarinet embouchure is dat it promotes a stable tone less prone to intonation problems which is its plus point if u employ dat particular embouchure in sax playing.

my advice would be for u to suggest or even insist dat your daughter start out on a softer reed like a 2. if you can, perhaps you could train your daughter's embouchure starting from now so dat she could accept harder reeds in a shorter time :)

also, try to be aware of wat your daughter is being taught, whether there are any wrong things dat need to be corrected. all these are crucial and imperative if one wants to build a good, solid foundation. i believe dat's your right to know and to question, and i assume you would know more about sax than the teacher who's primarily a clarinet player.

sorry if this post is a tad too long hehe~ i hope it helps :) i wish u and your daughter the very best :)

ben :)

[JfW]

I can think of no good reason either. I start students on #2's Ricos.

I have known of teachers of BEGINNERS who insist "All of my students have to play 3 1/2 Vandoren reeds. I only allow my clarinets to use Portnoy BP02 mouthpieces. My saxophones may only use Selmer C*'s."

And many of her students have difficulties. I have not heard a good, characteristic sax or clarinet tone from such teachers.

It makes one wonder what the real motive of such an instructor is. Is it to teach individual and group musicianship or is it to exonerate his/her own pride and methodology without regard to how many young students fail because of it.

IMO:

Like most things, young people won't want to participate in an activity if they don't have some early successes. I can think back on some problems I had with reeds that were too hard: Lack of endurance, bleeding gums, and too tight of and embrochure. If a young musician gets told she has to use a hard reed by the instructor and she/he can't do it, she/he'll think that she has no talent or ability.

[JfW]

So, what about that reed strength? Oh, and the teacher is primarily a clarinet player. Are there things I should watch for that a clarinetist might incorrectly carry over to saxophone?

I was first tought by a clarinet player and carried some ebrochure mistakes throughout highschool untill a Prof. of Saxophones corrected it:

1) I was wearing my alto too low on the neckstrap. Consequentially the mouthpiece was pointed more towards the roof of my mouth (ala the clarinet) than strait in towards the back of the throat.

2) The lip was tucked too far back under the reed, which also seems like something more appropriate for the clarinet rather than the saxophone. I corrected this gradually myself as it just felt so unnatural and now use more of a "pucker" with the meat of the lower lip giving support to the reed.

[Lyle]

I am still a beginner. I started on clarinet many years ago. On clarinet I started on 1 1/2 reed. On tenor sax I started on #2 rico royal. # 3 reeds starting tenor sax were much too hard. The playing should be made as easy as possible for a beginner especially youngsters, as everyone hear seems to agree. From a beginner's view, all the replys are right on. I hope the teacher is a flexible person. I hope he is smart enough to listen!

Let us know how everything works out.
Lyle

[Exiled92]

Thanks, folks. I guess I'm not a stone-age idiot!

My first teacher, a retired band director, was also a clarinetist, but all the first chair players in our town - including brass! - were his students. He knew how to teach MUSIC, not just playing notes. I value many good things I learned from him, but I also think I learned a somewhat screwy embouchure - too much lower lip tucked in, like JfW. That may have been the clarinet influencing his vision of sax embouchure. I'm still trying to correct that, though as a hobbyist and without help from a teacher.

Yesterday, the teacher passed out these potentially evil 3 reeds. My daughter told us that a large part of the lesson time at school was spent with one kid who couldn't get any sound without puffing out his cheeks. My immediate response (which I kept to myself - don't want my daughter to parrot things to the teacher and get in trouble) was that it would be less of a problem with A SOFTER REED.

Paul C.'s comment about not hearing a good characteristic tone from teachers who have a rigid approach does scare me a little. I don't want to go to war with the teacher and make my kid's life miserable. On the other hand, if the teacher is full of baloney, I'll do what I can to make music a viable life-long activity for my child.

I'm going to talk to the teacher tonight at the school open house and try to find out what her philosophy is, and to discern (nicely!) whether it makes any sense. I just hope I get something more than "I've been doing this for X years, and it works fine", i.e., I'm a music teacher and you're not, so shut up and don't interfere. As in any other field, there are a variety of personalities and levels of arrogance and rigidity. I really don't know where this director will fall. People are, by and large, pretty nice around here, so I'm optomistic.

[Keith Ridenhour]

I would think that the goal is to encourage air support and developing the lip muscles for playing. A hard reed is just going to get the student to bite, not support. I agree with a 2.5 strength or even 2s. I use the plain ricos myself on alto (since I don't play alot , mostly tenor) and I think those are fine for a beginner until the chops develop. K

[JfW]

I'm going to talk to the teacher tonight at the school open house and try to find out what her philosophy is, and to discern (nicely!) whether it makes any sense. I just hope I get something more than "I've been doing this for X years, and it works fine", i.e., I'm a music teacher and you're not, so shut up and don't interfere. As in any other field, there are a variety of personalities and levels of arrogance and rigidity. I really don't know where this director will fall. People are, by and large, pretty nice around here, so I'm optomistic.

I think that plan is a good and diplomatic one. Just go and find out how she plans to help your kid develop.

I'm guessing he/she's trying to get the kids to develop a strong embrochure quickly, but I think that's like telling a scrawny 85lb kid to bulk up while giving him a 150 lb dumbell! It just doesnt' seem like the right way to do it to me.

[alsdiego]

This topic really frosts my cake. The number of young people studying something besides electric guitar has been steadily shrinking over the years, at least in California, and this kind of thing only makes matters worse. To show you had bad it can get, the son of a friend of my was taking sax lessons at a local music store, and playing in the local high school band (doing pretty well, too.) His dad told me his son was having some "difficulty" with his horn. Being an older player, I offered to check it out. Here's what I found: a kid who's highly motivated (and obviously has some talent) was trying to play on a horn I could barely get a sound out of. It leaked like a sieve. Not only that, he was trying to play on a stock mpc with Rico 3 reeds. ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE. The dad, who incidently was very supportive of his son, was amazed that saxophones need adjustment. He thought of it kind of like an anvil, nothing to adjust. Got that taken care of, then switched to a Selmer C* mpc and Rico 2 reed. The kid could not believe the difference.... he thought sax was kind of like a trumpet, bite down hard and blow 'til the veins stand out on your temples. I feel very strongly that the horn should be VERY easy to play, especially for beginners, who can be easily discouraged.

Al

[Perfect Pitch]

Heh - who needs enemies when you can have teachers?

[alsdiego]

FWIW, six mos. after I started playing, I began taking lessons from a world-class sax player (Woodie Herman's band) and legendary teacher in New Jersey, Charlie Leeds. His routine recommendation? a relatively closed mpc (Brilhart Ebolin 3* I think), and a #2 rico. While that was 1958, I don't think the world has changed THAT much. I suspect a clarinet connection in here somewhere.

One other thing, as an advancing young player begins to work on vibrato, it's crucial in my opinion that the lower jaw be loose enough to get a smooth vibrato. If the reed is too hard, the student will have to use too much lower jaw pressure just to get a sound, and therefore a good vibrato is difficult if not impossible.

Let us know how it works out.

Al

[Exiled92]

Excellent point about jaw tightness and vibrato. I haven't been able to talk to the teacher yet. There were too many people waiting to introduce themselves at the open house last week, so I didn't want to suck up lots of time talking about this. We've not made contact by phone yet, either. In the meantime, my daughter's ability to play on either a 3 or a 2 has gone way downhill. She's struggling with things that were easy before she started with this teacher. She had serious trouble last night playing the mouthpiece at A=880, middle D cracks up like crazy, and she has a really tight face and airy tone. This doesn't seem like progress. :x

I'm still working on contacting the teacher, and I'll let you know what I find out.

[Paul Coats]

I had one teacher try the "I have had years of experience" thing on me. I was not in my usual "forgiving" mood, and quipped back, "Lady, I have horns I bought new that are older than you are." Naturally, that did not go over well.

Another teacher had two of my private students, kids who I had getting Superiors at Solo & Ensemble festivals, on Vandoren 3 1/2's. They could hardly get a note out. One of the two was on bari sax at that time, and he would turn bright red trying to get a sound out. I couldn't sound any better with that hard a reed, either. I gave him some 2 1/2's and he sounded fine, no problem. Similar with the other guy, still on alto.

They said, "Our teacher won't let us play Fibracells, and makes us use these 3 1/2's." I just peeled the stickers off their Fibracell MS's and they had no further problems with the teacher.

The next day they sounded fine in band. The teacher told them, "See? I told you you would sound better with the harder reeds once you got used to them." My students told me it was hard to keep a straight face, but they kept their mouths shut.

[Exiled92]

I've finally had a discussion with the "start hard" teacher, so I thought I ought to report back. She's not evil or condescending. She knows I'm a player and seems to have some respect for what I have to say. I think we'll be able to work together, though I may have to protest a bit in the future if a hunch of mine turns out to be right.

I asked why she started kids on 3s. The answer: First, she thinks kids need to have some good resistance in order to develop an embouchure. She used to start students in the Fall on Rico 2 1/2s ("would never start someone on a 2"), and she had them switch to Vandoren 3s around Christmas. Vandorens are graded harder than Ricos, so this was a big jump in strength, more than just a half strength change. Her solution to this problem was to start with a harder reed so that the jump wouldn't be as big. :shock: :shock: It was tough, but I kept my jaw off the floor and simultaneously managed not to laugh.

I don't know what would be wrong with the obvious solution of an intermediate reed strength between Rico 2 1/2 and Vandoren 3. Rico 3 or Vandoren 2 1/2 would work fine, no?

She has continued to do this because "it works - they develop good embouchures and we have good sax players through the higher grades." Well, I have to admit I haven't heard the HS band or jazz ensemble, but they don't have any amazing reputation or anything like that. Also, I have to wonder how many of the better players are taking lessons at the local University, and changing their set-ups as a result. (I really like and respect the sax teacher there.) As for the embouchure question, my comments earlier in the thread should suffice - I didn't like what I saw. If I hadn't intervened, I don't know how my kid would be sounding now. As it is, I helped her to where she was sounding pretty good on Rico 3s, but now the teacher has decided that they need to go to the Vandoren 3s. Oy!! We bought three of them for her to rotate and, so far, one plays well and the other two are really stuffy. I can't play them well myself, much less my kid, and my attempts to balance them without making them markedly softer have failed. I have mixed feelings about thwarting what the teacher may be trying to do, but believe me, I'm severely tempted to go ahead and make them softer!

The hunch I mentioned above is that I suspect she will try to move them to Vandoren 3 1/2s. Why do so many people think there is some sort of magic in that reed? If she does that and it hurts my daughter's sound, I think I'll just have to start working the reeds down behind her back. either that or we'll just buy a different kind and never mention it. :twisted:

Thanks, all, for your earlier comments and thoughts. I've learned a lot, and it's also nice to find that I'm not way off base in my thinking.

[alsdiego]

[quote="Paul Coats"] I have horns I bought new that are older than you are."

Or, "Lady, the night I played in my first school band concert, Harry Truman was President." :D

[Sigmund451]

Call child protective services. Absurd! (and other unmentionables)

[alsdiego]

What the saxophone teaching profession needs is a pedagogy! We all know about the "Suzuki Method" for violin, how about the "Coats Method" for saxophone? In this perfect world, all student mouthpieces will have a moderate tip opening, no reed will be above a 2, and there will be no "leakers" among the student horns. The "No Pain, No Gain" school of sax teaching will become a felony in all states.

I'll bet (and someone may know) that the literature already exists outlining these very basic and obvious principles. Unfortunately, no one seems bound to follow them. Sadly, it seems that the teachers who could most benefit from such basic concepts (band instructors without a lot of sax experience, for example) don't seem to have any real training in the unique issues presented by each instrument.

[Perfect Pitch]

Call child protective services. Absurd! (and other unmentionables)


Malheureusement , I must concur

[Draconistarum]

Are there things I should watch for that a clarinetist might incorrectly carry over to saxophone? :?: :? :?:

A clarinetist might think that a 3 clarinet reed is equal to a 3 saxophone reed. It isn't, as I found out. We were told on the first day of sixth grade band that we (clarinets) should only use #3 reeds. The saxes were told to play on 2 1/2s. So... yeah...

[Gandalfe]

Exiled, you worry too much. Let the kid play a 2 1/2 rico for a year (rotating a set is always a good thing to do) and after the first year reevaluate. Think of the fun you could be having with your daughter playing increasingly interesting music, instead of waiting for her to develop an iron embouchure.

Have you talked to her about the joys of using the diaphram (hot air vs. cold air when you blow)? How about long tones and how fast they improve your sound? Do you have intonation exercises that you do so that you can move on to duets--now that's some fun music.

Music should be about fun. Trust your instincts and enjoy.

[Exiled92]

Remember, it wasn't my idea to have the kid play harder reeds. We tried a few different reed types over the Christmas break, and I have now gone ahead and substituted a set of Vandoren 2 1/2s for the 3s the teacher wants them to play. Much better sound! She also likes (and sounds pretty good on) Rico 3. So, yes, I'm basically having my kid ignore the teacher on this one.

As far as exercises, they're learning lots of scales, most of them two octaves, and playing some not-quite-long-enough tone exercises - medium tones, if you will. And, yes, we play duets as often as we can manage it. :D :D She also has fun working on some Bach quartet parts I dug up. We play those together, too, either SA or AT. I may pick up a book of two-part inventions arranged for two saxophones. In any case, I'm pretty sure she's a better player than I was at this point in my first year.

[Gandalfe]

Now you're talking! I can hardly wait until my grandson turns nine. I've had him doing some piano things until now and hope to start him on the recorder next.

[awholley]

Sounds like the teacher was ok in the end since the Rico 3s DO work for your child. I start kids on Vandoren 2.5s, which is about the same as a Rico 3. The 1.5 seems excessively soft to me, especially for a beginner.
It might be easy to blow, but it will choke off easily with a child's uncontrollled air stream.

One of my 6th graders has been moved up to a Vandoren 3 by her school teacher, and I think it was too soon. Heck, I was playing Vandoren 3s in grad school...

[Paul Coats]

I had a student ask me how players in high school were able to play Vandoren 4's and 5's.

Well, I showed him a Selmer S90 180 alto sax mouthpiece. The tip opening is a microscopic .057", and the facing was very short... only 16 mm. My SOPRANO sax mouthpiece has a .063" tip and 19 mm facing. I play CLARINET mouthpieces bigger than that 180.

Larry Teals are not much better, but have a very long facing and .060" tip opening. Caravans are also very small. These small mouthpieces can be played, NEED to be played with very hard reeds.

But even the Selmer S80 C* is .066". And most Bundy and other beginner mouthpieces are about the same size. These mouthpieces play well with reeds in the 3-3 1/2 range for stronger players. Beginners need #2's with these mouthpieces.

I doubt the kids with the Caravans and LT's and #4 reeds could play that same reed on my Runyon Custom 8, with a .083" tip opening. But I play this in SAX QUARTET, and yes, even some light classical. I have done a few recitals with this mouthpiece playing classical. I use Fibracell Med Softs (a little harder than Rico 2 1/2's).

The mouthpiece facing has a lot of influence on required reed strength.

The small tip opening - very hard reed setup just does not produce a characteristic sax tone. This whole concept comes from teachers who confuse the saxophone and the clarinet.

[Exiled92]

I think Paul just nailed it. If you want the sax to sound like a clarinet, then you'll keep moving to smaller tips and harder reeds until you extinguish the life in the sound. That pure, smooth sound is lovely coming out of a clarinet (straight bore, wood), but a saxophone (tapered bore, BRASS!!) simply isn't built to give that kind of a sound. I think band teachers who are primarily clarinetists will naturally tend to move this way, since clarinet is probably the sound they prefer, but they're looking for a kind of tone that is inappropriate for the instrument.

[Darkstar]

I'd try 2.5 for beginners, your reed strength should be in direct correlation with your mouthpiece tip opening. The Bigger the tip opening the softer the reed that can usually be used, reeds can be very inconsistent and you should play on something that will let you produce a good tone comfortably. I'd definately not start beginners on something as soft as 1 or 1.5 but I wouldn't start too hard either. It's usually easier for a begginer to get a good tone with a more medium/soft reed.

[sycc]

My daughter that has been playing 2 years uses hemke no 2. The other daughter who has been playing 6 months uses a rico royal 2.Hemke is a meatier reed so more advanced daughter uses it while the less expienced daughter uses the easy to blow rico royal. Both use meduim close mouthpieces,the 2 year player a selmer c* and the 6 month player a roussueu new classice 3.

[rs1sensen]

I started on #2 Rico reeds, then after about a month moved to 2.5 (which isn't that much of a difference). Then, I slowly worked my way up.

There are other factors too...Getting a good saxophone sound is the product of many elements, the ligature, the reed, the mouthpiece, the horn, and of course, the musician him/herself.

Some things you slowly upgrade. For example, at 8th to 9th grade (for a typical student), it is wise to upgrade the stock mouthpiece to a Selmer C*, or other comparable mouthpiece. The musician will someday outgrow their own horn, and need to upgrade. (I moved from a YAS-23 to a Selmer Series II this past year). At some point, we even move on to different types of horns. I started on alto, but own an alto, tenor, and soprano. I also own two clarinets, a trumpet, and a piano.

Just as the other things go, we grow out of reed weights and brands. I can't stand Rico now, but it's not because they have a bad sound. Its because I like the sound Vandoren Javas give me instead.

So...with all of this. Go to the music store, and buy a few of several brands of reeds, all in a relatively low "hardness." Find whatever your daughter feels plays the easiest, and best for her. And I also agree with you, 3 is too hard for a beginner.