Flutes: Open-hole versus Closed-hole

[Gordon (NZ)]

Another thread was recently "polluted" with questions about this issue, so I started this on-topic thread. This is a statement I recently put together covering my view on the topic.

Many reasons are touted for having open holes, but for perhaps 95% of players they serve no purpose and have significant detractors. Some issues are:

1. Intonation: A flute goes quite sharp when it is played loudly. This can be compensated for (for SOME notes) by partly closing a tone hole. This is possible only with open holes. Alternatively, the pitch can be humoured with special fingerings when playing very softly. However an accomplished player has sufficient versatility in embouchure and air pressure to correct the intonation by other means. Certain alternative fingerings are available to humour pitch with close-hole too.

2. Intonation: Theoretically the notes which involve open holes are slightly better vented and are theoretically slightly sharper, so the flute maker allows for this in tone hole position or size. However many players on open-hole flutes plug the holes, theoretically putting the flute out of tune. In reality, the venting of holes on a flute is so good anyway, that this intonation effect is probably so small as to be negligible or non-existent.

3. Comfort: Many players plug the holes. One type of plug projects and is uncomfortable, another tends to push through the hole, and both are capable of leaking.

4. Hand position: Open hole encourages an UN-ergonomic position for wrist in order to reliably cover the G key. Some players want to believe so much that the open-hole system is better, that they convince themselves that the distorted wrist position is indeed more natural, but this fails the common sense test.

5. Hand position: Some teachers claim that they cannot get pupils' fingers into 'good' positions without the aid of open holes. In answer to that I'd say that I have taught over 400 beginners on closed-hole flutes, and this has not been a problem.

6. This so-called 'good' finger position has the balls of the fingers (under the nails) centred on the key cups. If the fingers are not perfectly centred on the keys - much frowned upon! - what is the big deal, really? Bagpipers and recorder players have no problems with fingers projecting well over the holes. And there are few keys on a saxophone where the fingers are central.

7. Acoustic theory: "There should be as little interruption to the bore as possible." Open hole introduces a further step, up from the bore to the pad, and then up again to the finger.
8. Acoustic theory: The bore should be of a hard material. The washers and screws of a closed-hole pad are far harder than the 'squishiness' of a chimney of air leading up to a soft finger.

9. Servicing: If a pad needs to be taken out for shimming, it is far more likely to be distorted or damaged during removal if it is on an open-hole key, where there is a difficult-to-remove pad retaining grommet.

10. Perhaps most important of all - Leaks! My finger skin is hard, but not very hard. Air leaks badly along my finger print grooves on open-holed keys. Try this test: Cork the lower end of the body of an open-hole flute. Close the keys with the fingers and 'squirt' a mouthful of air gently into the other end. An open-hole flute will leak unless the fingers are pressed quite hard - harder than a player should need to press. If the fingers are wetted before the test, then air can be heard bubbling out of the fingerprint grooves in the skin. This is not an issue of not covering the holes properly. It is a result of low finger pressure on a large area of skin, which simply is not flat, and therefore does not seal well.
What on earth is the use of adjusting a flute to be leak-proof for good response, and then introducing finger leaks by having open holes!

11. Finger Contortions. For people with a short right pinkie relative to the D finger, contortions are needed to play low C or low B without introducing a leak under at lest one of the three right hand open-holes. Again the flute is not ergonomic.

12. Tone: It is claimed that the extra venting offered by open-holes improves the tone. Pause to think about this. Of the twelve notes in an octave, there are only five where open holes contribute to venting. Have you ever heard of a player saying how their Bb, A, F#, F, & E have a better tone than the other notes? An emphatic NO! Therefore the notion of better tone is bunkum!

13. With open-holes, a wider range of unusual effects are available, such as warbling notes, 1/4 tones, slides from one note to another, two notes sounding at once, etc. Perhaps only 2% of players ever use these, especially after the experimental novelty wears off. There are plenty novelty effects available on a closed-hole flute for the one-time experimenters to play with.

14. Open-hole flutes usually cost slightly more. So it is my guess that when buying a flute, the typical player, encouraged by a teacher, assumes that because the flute costs more it must be better. They can stretch their budget that little extra so open hole is what they buy. Or it could be simply that the cheapest student flutes are not offered in open-hole versions, so it is assumed that open-hole is superior.

So in spite of having played an open-hole professional flute for a decade, I changed back to the more desirable closed-hole flute to avoid all these problems. Choosing open holes seems to be largely a 'fashion', or prestige-driven thing, nurtured by teachers and marketers who have not really thought much about it, and supported by manufacturers who oblige the market.

The inclination towards open holes is much stronger in some countries than others; America seems to have rather unquestioningly adopted the idea from the French. My own country seems recently to be following suit. There are many superb players in the world who do indeed play on closed-hole flutes.

There is a common notion that manufacturers do not offer closed holes in their top models. This is far from the truth. The truth is that many market outlets have never offered the closed-hole options that the manufacturers offer. Perhaps it is simply so they can carry a smaller range of models in stock.

[Gordon (NZ)]

The original enquirer, CityStone, specifically asked about 'shading' notes. The example given was on a bamboo flute, sliding smoothly in pitch between G & A. (The player had not played a Boehm keyed flute)

Perhaps some elaboration is needed here.

Even with open holes, this can be done only to a very limited degree on a Western style Boehm-system flute. Firstly, there are only 5 notes out of the 12 in a scale, that hkave the use of open holes for shaduing, and that shading can normally cover only part of a semitone interval. For example sliding the finger across the G key to open the hole, will take the pitch only part way up to A. Then there has to be a sudden leap in pitch the rest of the way as the key is lifted. The player can probably do more note bending by embouchure changes (just as possible on a closed hole flute) than he can with the open holes. The combination of both adds to the possible bending. However this will still be nowhere near as versatile as the shading possible on a keyless flute. The Boehm flute just was not really designed for the style of playing where shading is an important feature.

[CityStone]

Thank you for your insightful comments Gordon. :D

Its unfortunate that I am (in the near future at least) unable to get acquainted with an open hole flute to compare for myself the advantages and disadvantages of open/closed holes.....

I would bear your points in mind though when I decide to get a better flute next time :wink:

[michaelbaird]

I have an open hole flute with an inline G. I keep the G hole closed otherwise I couldn't play it. I've often wondered if it really mattered if the holes were open or closed

[Gordon (NZ)]

My post in the old crashed forum on this subject probably bears repeating:

Open holes.

I am a well-established woodwind repair specialist, and a reasonably accomplished flute player. I offer the following thoughts on the issue of open-hole versus closed-hole flutes....

Many reasons are touted for having them but for perhaps 95% of players they serve no purpose and have significant detractors. Some issues are:

1. Intonation: A flute goes quite sharp when it is played loudly. This can be compensated for (for SOME notes) by partly closing a tone hole. This is possible only with open holes. Alternatively, the pitch can be humoured with special fingerings when playing very softly. However an accomplished player has sufficient versatility in embouchure and air pressure to correct the intonation by other means. Certain alternative fingerings are available to humour pitch with close-hole too.

2. Intonation: Theoretically the notes which involve open holes are slightly better vented and are theoretically slightly sharper, so the flute maker allows for this in tone hole position or size. However many players on open-hole flutes plug the holes, theoretically putting the flute out of tune. In reality, the venting of holes on a flute is so good anyway, that this intonation effect is probably so small as to be negligible or non-existent.

3. Comfort: Many players plug the holes. One type of plug projects and is uncomfortable, another tends to push through the hole, and both are capable of leaking.

4. Hand position: Open hole encourages an UN-ergonomic position for wrist in order to reliably cover the G key. Some players want to believe so much that the open-hole system is better, that they convince themselves that the distorted wrist position is indeed more natural, but this fails the common sense test.

5. Hand position: Some teachers claim that they cannot get pupils' fingers into 'good' positions without the aid of open holes. In answer to that I'd say that I have taught over 400 beginners on closed-hole flutes, and this has not been a problem.

This so-called 'good' finger position has the balls of the fingers (under the nails) centred on the key cups. If the fingers are not perfectly centred on the keys (much frowned upon!) what is the big deal, really? Bagpipers and recorder players have no problems with fingers projecting well over the holes. And there are few keys on a saxophone where the fingers are central.

7. Acoustic theory: "There should be as little interruption to the bore as possible." Open hole introduces a further step, up from the bore to the pad, and then up again to the finger.

8. Acoustic theory: The bore should be of a hard material. The washers and screws of a closed-hole pad are far harder than the 'squishiness' of a chimney of air leading up to a soft finger.

9. Servicing: If a pad needs to be taken out for shimming, it is far more likely to be distorted or damaged during removal if it is on an open-hole key, where there is a difficult-to-remove pad retaining grommet.

10. Perhaps most important of all - Leaks! My finger skin is hard, but not very hard. Air leaks badly along my finger print grooves on open-holed keys. Try this test: Cork the lower end of the body of an open-hole flute. Close the keys with the fingers and 'squirt' a mouthful of air gently into the other end. An open-hole flute will leak unless the fingers are pressed quite hard - harder than a player should need to press. If the fingers are wetted before the test, then air can be heard bubbling out of the fingerprint grooves in the skin. This is not an issue of not covering the holes properly. It is a result of low finger pressure on a large area of skin, which simply is not flat, and therefore does not seal well.

What on earth is the use of adjusting a flute to be leak-proof for good response, and then introducing finger leaks by having open holes!

11. Finger Contortions. For people with a short right pinkie relative to the D finger, contortions are needed to play low C or low B without introducing a leak under at lest one of the three right hand open-holes. Again the flute is not ergonomic.

12. Tone: It is claimed that the extra venting offered by open-holes improves the tone. Pause to think about this. Of the twelve notes in an octave, there are only five where open holes contribute to venting. Have you ever heard of a player saying how their Bb, A, F#, F, & E have a better tone than the other notes? An emphatic NO! Therefore the notion of better tone is bunkum!

13. With open-holes, a wider range of unusual effects are available, such as warbling notes, 1/4 tones, slides from one note to another, two notes sounding at once, etc. Perhaps only 2% of players ever use these, especially after the experimental novelty wears off. There are plenty novelty effects available on a closed-hole flute for the one-time experimenters to play with.

14. Open-hole flutes usually cost slightly more. So it is my guess that when buying a flute, the typical player, encouraged by a teacher, assumes that because the flute costs more it must be better. They can stretch their budget that little extra so open hole is what they buy. Or it could be simply that the cheapest student flutes are not offered in open-hole versions, so it is assumed that open-hole is superior.

So in spite of having played an open-hole professional flute for a decade, I changed back to the more desirable closed-hole flute to avoid all these problems. Choosing open holes seems to be largely a 'fashion', or prestige-driven thing, nurtured by teachers and marketers who have not really thought much about it, and supported by manufacturers who oblige the market.

The inclination towards open holes is much stronger in some countries than others; America seems to have rather unquestioningly adopted the idea from the French. There are many superb players in the world who do indeed play on closed-hole flutes.

There is a common notion that manufacturers do not offer closed holes in their top models. This is far from the truth. The truth is that many market outlets have never offered the closed-hole options that the manufacturers offer. Perhaps it is simply so they can carry a smaller range of models in stock.

[michaelbaird]

Why then are open hole flutes considered to be the standard? I would rather play a closed hole flute.

[Gordon (NZ)]

For the same reason as people do other silly things, such as wear high healed shoes. Unquestioning, blind following of fashion. I don't think open holes were the norm in my country before what I see as American influence on a new generation of young players, who now often seem to lead their pupils to unquestioningly do the same.

Perhaps it is partly because in a catalogue, open holes may cost slightly more, and that slightly is something the buyer can afford, and the buyer makes an assumption that because it is more expensive it is better.

But I think it has a lot to do with stockists not wanting to carry double the stock to cover both. So once momentum gathers from the original "butterfly effect", the stockists perpetuate it.

[michaelbaird]

I personally like high healed shoes but I'm a male nurse and can't wear them... people will talk :P

[Gordon (NZ)]

So!

[tubbycub]

I have an open hole Armstrong (it was a surpirse gift, so I have no choice over what I want).

Anyway, I have been playing this flute with the holes plugged. But out of curiosity, I took out the plugs and tried playing it. To my surprise, I couldn't even produce a single note. I thought I might not have closed the holes properly with my fingers but I tried to deliberately close it tightly and still produced no sound. Things were back to normal when I re-plugged the holes though.

Could this be due to myself or the instrument?

I never favored open hole flutes anyway....should I get a new closed one instead?

I need a flute that is easy to play and has a nice rich tone...and is not too expensive.

Any comments on a Yamaha 300 series? A flutist once recommended this to me.

Thanks in advance

[Gordon (NZ)]

YFL-311 (S II) is my top recommendation here (NZ) for players who want a better than basic student model. I reckon they play better than a 50 year old, overhauled Haynes.

But USA seems to set up Yamahas differently to how Japan does. So don't go by what I say, unless you get a Japanese-set-up one.

YFL-311 has silver head, split E, off-set G, closed tone holes.
Common here, but I don't think I have even seen one in a USA catalogue.

[Bootman]

I prefer the open hole flutes over closed, it is simply down to a feel thing, the instrument feels more alive in my hands with open holes than with closed holes. I don't equate any difference between playing open holes on flute to playing clarinet, you just cover the holes and deal with it. It actually promotes good finger technique to have open holes, this will increase speed of execution of many phrases. You can slide notes more effectively too.

I see no difference between flute with open holes over Bassoon either, just cover the holes. The overall fingering on a Bassoon is much more challenging than on Flute, no one says anything about making a covered hole bassoon.

Gordon has some great points but due entirely to the feel of an open hole flute, under the hands, I think you will find that others wont change. I know I wont, the feel is integral to getting the sound and the most out of an instrument.

[Ivy]

I prefer open hole flutes also. I have developed fingerings covering part of holes for effects which have become part of my expression.

I think many people (more than 2%), actually use this technique. That is including people who play 20th Century music where these effects can only be possible on an open hole flute.

There is also Steve Kujala's influence in jazz flute playing. He regularly slides in and out of notes using partial covering. I hear many people around my area starting to use this expressive tool.

If you only have a closed hole flute, you will never be open to these experiences.

[tubbycub]

But why is it so difficult for me to get a note on the open-hole flute?

This Armstrong flute is ok when I plugged the holes but not a single note is produced when I removed the plugs. I had deliberately closed the holes tight with my fingers can can't even produce an A or G note.

Can anyone explain why?

[Gordon (NZ)]

You must surely be able to play first finger C, and the adjacent C#, B, Bb.

Either you are not covering some holes completely, or the air is leaking severely along your finger print grooves, or you are lighlty touching trill keys with the sides of your fat fingers in their slighlty modified locations or angles.

Try doing it after a good hand soak in the dish water or shower, or actually wet the fingers, to seal better.

[Ivy]

tubbycub, This problem is very common for those who are new to open holes. Try just taking one plug at a time, starting on the D hole-on up, so you can pay close attention to that one open hole. After you get used to that, move on to the next hole. I promise you, it will come.

[tubbycub]

Thanks to Gordon and Ivy for your valuable advice :)

[saxomophone]

"10. Perhaps most important of all - Leaks! My finger skin is hard, but not very hard. Air leaks badly along my finger print grooves on open-holed keys. Try this test: Cork the lower end of the body of an open-hole flute. Close the keys with the fingers and 'squirt' a mouthful of air gently into the other end. An open-hole flute will leak unless the fingers are pressed quite hard - harder than a player should need to press. If the fingers are wetted before the test, then air can be heard bubbling out of the fingerprint grooves in the skin. This is not an issue of not covering the holes properly. It is a result of low finger pressure on a large area of skin, which simply is not flat, and therefore does not seal well.

What on earth is the use of adjusting a flute to be leak-proof for good response, and then introducing finger leaks by having open holes


Are you saying then that instruments like Oboes, Clarinets, Bassoons, and other instruments that require your finger to cover the tone hole are by design inferior because they will definately have leaks as you have described? According to what you have stated, it is amazing someone could even get a low E out of a clarinet with 7 leaky keys above it!

I don't mean to pick a fight, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

[JfW]

"10. Perhaps most important of all - Leaks! My finger skin is hard, but not very hard. Air leaks badly along my finger print grooves on open-holed keys. Try this test: Cork the lower end of the body of an open-hole flute. Close the keys with the fingers and 'squirt' a mouthful of air gently into the other end. An open-hole flute will leak unless the fingers are pressed quite hard - harder than a player should need to press. If the fingers are wetted before the test, then air can be heard bubbling out of the fingerprint grooves in the skin. This is not an issue of not covering the holes properly. It is a result of low finger pressure on a large area of skin, which simply is not flat, and therefore does not seal well.

What on earth is the use of adjusting a flute to be leak-proof for good response, and then introducing finger leaks by having open holes


Are you saying then that instruments like Oboes, Clarinets, Bassoons, and other instruments that require your finger to cover the tone hole are by design inferior because they will definately have leaks as you have described? According to what you have stated, it is amazing someone could even get a low E out of a clarinet with 7 leaky keys above it!

I don't mean to pick a fight, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

I'd say it makes sense that finger tissue may not be as good at making a seal as a traditional pad and cup. If that is the case, then yes, logically the open holes in those isntruments have a measurable drawback to them, but what woodwind doesn't have bad points?

[Gordon (NZ)]

I agree with the above, especially for the large, flat, open keys on some oboes. They DO easily leak along the finger prints. I had an oboe customer who complained vehemently that I had not eliminated the leaks, until I got him to do a 'bubble test' with wet fingers, locating his skin as the problem!

However for ring keys as on clarinet, there are other factors involved:

On an open hole flute key, because of the relatively flat design, the finger contacts a large surface of metal, compared with the timber tone hole edge within a clarinet ring key. For a given force exerted on the key by a finger, the less surface area the finger is contacting, the more pressure on the skin involved, and hence the greater likelihood of sealing.

The fingers would seal a lot better on flute keys if the keys had a slightly raised ridge around the open hole.

[michaelbaird]

I just wanted to add that I have a gemeinhardt flute with a low b foot and just had it repadded. My repairman at my request closed the holes with the plastic plugs and I'm alot happier. The plastic resonates better than my flesh did and I'm not so obsessed with covering the holes. I probably won't buy a closed hole flute now.

[sessionsax]

Being a sax player/doubler I think that they familiarity of a closed hold flute outwieghs any sound differences or snobbery that come as a result of playing one.

[bruce bailey]

I only sell new flutes with open-holes as it only adds about $20 to the cost and the nylon plugs work great. When you re-sell an upper line flute in the US, the open-holes make it much easier to sell and command a much higher price. Look at the difference on ebay with a Haynes.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I would suggest that it costs well over $20 for extra servicing time in the future. Inserting plugs theoretically puts out the tuning, seeing the cross sectional area of the bore is a factor in intonation. I understand that this is factored into the design of open hole flutes. The theory, though, may be insignificant in practice.

[michaelbaird]

I can't tell that much of a difference in intonation; not articulating the notes clean with the tone I wanted, was a bigger problem. It's fun to play again. I don't have the patience or the time to fight with an instrument.

[AMASAX]

interestingly enough, Brannen Brothers(Boston), who are
amongst the better/best high end flute makers in the world,
offer a flute with what they call 'orchestral tuning'.
This was developed by Albert Cooper, and is a mix of
open & closed hole design; the left hand is all closed hole,
and the right hand is open hole.

Supposedly, he was able to get a little better mix of tuning/
tone characteristics by doing this. It also involved repositioning
some tone holes, as there is truth to the above comments
that an open hole key will vent sharper than closed hole,
so that has to be taken into account.

[sebastian17]

Taken from "The Flute Book - A Complete Guide for Students and Performers" 2nd edition, By Nancy Toff(1996)

page 21, <How to choose an instrument - Open or Closed Holes>

The most obvious choice in flutes is between the closed-hole and open-hole models........ There has been some resistance to the French model(open holes) for a long time, however, and it is growing. Marcel Moyse(the forefather of modern flute playing), for instance, alone among the great names of the French School, always played a plateau model(closed holes). And many acousticians - Dayton C. Miller and Arthur Benade are perhaps the most prominent of them - consider the plateau model acoustically superior. They brand the open holes a significant flaw, "the one acoustical crime that has been perpetrated against the Boehm flute," in Miller's words. Flute maker Albert Cooper(the legendary flute maker and creator of the now modern scale - the Cooper Scale) considers the French model's scale inherently less accurate because it overcompensates for the sharpening effect of the perforations. Further, he says, the closed keys are more stable; they cover the holes better because their washer-screw construction is more relable than the friction snap used on perforated keys. The plateau pads are easier to install and repair.

[Ivy]

Yeah, but the paragraph before that says:

"The open holes also offer a variety of alternate fingerings that enhance technique, by simplifying certain fingerbenders, and extend the tonal palette by offering the option of shading (partially uncovering a perforatied key while pressing the rim of the key). Finallly, the French model is essential for producing a number of avant garde effects such as multiphonics, quarter tones and glissandos."

For the doubler who isn't interested in these effects, the better choice is the plateau model.

[xraydog]

It is amazing how much response this issues always gets. I have seen it discussed over and over again and all the issues presented here were mentioned in the other posts.

I play an open hole flute with an offset G WITH the holes plugged. I couldn't find a flute of the quality I wanted with plateau keys (ie. closed holes) in the US. I could easily order one from any manufacturer but didn't want to wait 6-12 months.

I use PLUG-O's to close the holes. They are produced by Powell flutes to convert their open hole flutes to "closed holes". I do not think they make plateau keys. They are small round rhodium plugs with O-rings that fit snuggly into flutes with 7mm diam holes (I am told they offer different O-rings for different flutes). They have a concave finger surface so the key feels like a plateau key. When in place it is very difficult to tell if the flute is an open or closed hole model. I have played and recorded my flute with and without the plugs. There is no demonstralbe difference. If they had the same model with plateau keys availble I would have purchased it.

For the record, I like the feel of the flute without the plugs however I have difficulty with the D key sealing without applying what I feel is too much pressure. I am a sax player player primarily who does a lot of flute doubling. The most important thing to me is playing..... not whether my flute has open or closed holes. I don't use semi- or half-tones and while I study classical flute literature, I haven't come accross (yet) piece of music that requires them.

I think the Plug-O's are a great item. They make the flute key feel more like a plateau key. From the pad side they also look very similar to a closed hole with a flat metal resonator. You can see a picture and order them from Flute World. Here is the link: http://www.fluteworld.com/Merchant/


That's my 2 cent or more:

xraydog

P.S. If anyone has an Altus 1107 with plateau keys that would like to trade for an open hole model..... email me.




Open hole flutes are much easier to resell in the US.

[sebastian17]

But it is known the plugged open-hole flutes tend to be a little flat on several notes, making the whole scale uneven.

Hey, I am using a similar combination of flutes as yours. (you use Altus 1107 as main flute and Yamaha 385 as backup) I use Altus 907 open-hole (no plugging) as main, and Yamaha 313(same as the now 5xx series) closed-hole as backup and for practice. You are right about the ordering, waiting, and the resale value, unfortunately. (I am not from the US).

[bruce bailey]

Powell does make closed hole flutes. One advantage to open holes is that the key height can be closer to the body due to the greater venting. I sell about 20% of my flutes to sax players and they still like open. Other than cheapie beginner flutes, I sell less than 2% of my upper line in closed hole. In the US, a used closed hole or C foot high end flute is hard to sell mostly due to the "stigma". Although I deal in custom flutes, I confess that my favorite doubling flutes are the old Conn 2-piece (foot does not come off) closed hole and they are available for under $500, gold springs and all.

[Gordon (NZ)]

One advantage to open holes is that the key height can be closer to the body due to the greater venting..

There does not seem to be a lot of logic in that statement.

If the open hole keys were lowered because of the extra venting, then the two related 'stack' key cups which are NOT perforated, would also be lowered, making G and B flat.

[Dave Dolson]

Gordon, Richard, and Others: I am not a flute player, but my wife has played in the past and is considerning buying a flute. We were discussing this thread and neither of us understands the open-hole-plug issue. We recently bought an open-hole flute (Yamaha) for our adult daughter and she loves it. We know the difference between open and closed-hole models, but the plugs discussed in this thread stump us.

Why plug the holes in an open-hole flute? Which holes, if not all, are plugged? What do the plugs look like? How does one play a flute with the holes plugged? Is it that the plugs have small vents to allow the tone/air to escape? What IS the deal?

Thanks for answering. DAVE

[Anonymous]

Why plug the holes in an open-hole flute? Which holes, if not all, are plugged? What do the plugs look like? How does one play a flute with the holes plugged? Is it that the plugs have small vents to allow the tone/air to escape? What IS the deal?
Thanks for answering. DAVE

OK ... you have seen both open and closed hole flutes so you know how they are different. With an open hole flute your fingers need to cover the holes in the center of the pads to make the seal when that pad is closed.

It is difficult to make a good seal (especially the G on flute that has inline G) and many students start out with plugs to cover those 5 holes (the holes in the center of the key - NOT the tonehole) while they learn to position their fingers to cover the holes. Typically a player who is new to open hole flute will gradually remove the plugs one at a time (maybe one each week) while he/she learns to cover first the D then the E the the F and so on (I never did get the plug out of the inline G).

So that is sort of a typical way to learn how to cover those hnles. But Gordon and others are offering their opinion (which I share) that there is no good reason to have the open holes to begin with. The effort to try and cover those holes isn't worth whatever benefit may be had by having open holes in the center of the pads as opposed to pads that cover the entire tone hole.

The other side of that argument is that there ARE significant benefits to having the open holes in the center of the pads and that it IS worth the effort to learn to cover them with your fingers.

So the plugs simply fill up that hole in the center of the pad so you can put your finger anywhere on the key to close it and get a good seal without having your finger centered on the key and without worrying about covering that hole with your finger.

Hope that makes sense.

[Gordon (NZ)]

In case there is confusion, the plugs plug the holes that are through the key cups - only five key cups involved.

I've met three types.

1. A cylinder of cork or silicon rubber which jams right inside the hole, and level with the top of the hole.
2. Imagine a short plastic tube (nylon) which jams into the key cup hole. Integral with this tube is a disc, capping it, so we have a cross-section like the greek letter 'pi'. These plug the holes. The disadvantage is that they have the disc part between the finger and the original key cup, which does not feel the best under the finger.

Both of the above, unless they are just right for the diameter of the holes, can leak.

3. The Powell type already mentioned by somebody else. Like 2, except that the tube part is solid, and the whole thing is made from metal. The disc can therefore be very thin and less of an interference. This metal plug seals inside the key cup by having a groove around the, containing a rubber O-Ring. Very neat. Simple to make, but very expensive, I suppose, especially if made from rhodium. Much cheaper if they were part of a kid's toy! :-)

[Dave Dolson]

Obviously, I was not as familiar with the total design of open-hole flutes as I thought. I didn't look that closely at the flute we bought for our daughter. Bought it and handed it over, that's about all.

Now it seems that five of the tone holes are covered by a pad-cup with a hole in the center. Covering those center holes is the problem, correct?

If that is the case, I still don't understand the problem (although it was adequately described by Blaine and Gordon). As was mentioned above, clarinets have open holes (and probably bigger than those center holes on the five pad-cups of the open-hole flute, if I understand the design). It seems to me that a larger clarinet tone hole would be more difficult to seal than a center-hole on a flute pad-cup.

Or, is it that the position of the wrist makes it more difficult to cover those smaller holes? DAVE

[Gordon (NZ)]

"Or, is it that the position of the wrist makes it more difficult to cover those smaller holes?"

Yes, that is quite a significant issue for probably most players. Wrist problems can ensue. Many players plug at least one of the holes.

For other issues, see my post that started this thread, and some of the excellent recent threads.

Regarding clarinets: They have far smaller tone holes, so pads are not needed to cover the holes immediately under the fingers. By comparison, the equivalent flute tone holes are far too big to cover with a finger, so flutes HAVE to have key cups and pads.

The ring keys are used on a clarinet because this is a VERY simple, cheap, and effective way of providing the same sort of linkage between the 'stack' keys as flutes have. This type of ring key, as a linkage system for closing two holes at once, cannot be used with large tone holes, and is therefore not seen on bass clarinets.

[xraydog]

Gordon,

This is a little off topic, however, I figured you may have run across this. Why do flutes use flat metal resonators instead of domed resonators on their keys. I assume the resonators are used to increase the sound transmission from the flute. If this so why not use the domed resonators which are supposed to be more effcient at this process.

xraydog

[Dave Dolson]

Thanks, Gordon. FWIW, I did read the whole thread before posting my questions. There was quite a bit of info to absorb and maybe I missed some of the more subtle issues on first read. DAVE

[Gordon (NZ)]

Gordon,

This is a little off topic, however, I figured you may have run across this. Why do flutes use flat metal resonators instead of domed resonators on their keys. I assume the resonators are used to increase the sound transmission from the flute. If this so why not use the domed resonators which are supposed to be more efficient at this process.

xraydog

I believe that the MAIN function of the pad washers on flutes is to make sure that the circle which seals on the tone hole is physically stable. A discrepancy of even 0.01 mm (0.0004") in pad thickness constitutes a significant leak, or annoying maladjustment, for a light-fingered flute player.

Same for saxophone, although players tend to be heavier-handed.

I believe the next most important function - for both - is to provide a larger area of rigid surface for the bore, in the area where the pads are CLOSED. An instrument that was lined with pad felt would play rather poorly, because it is a poor acoustic container and definer of an air column. Resonators reduce the area of bore that is effectively lined with felt.

I believe that the sound REFLECTION role of pad washers and resonators of OPEN keys is relatively insignificant. Most of the sound emanates from the embouchure area of a flute. Most of the sound emanates from the bell of a sax. There is not a huge amount of sound coming directly from the first open tone hole at the bottom of an air column.

I consider the term 'resonator' as a complete misnomer. If these items resonated, they would resonate to specific frequencies, probably producing buzzing sounds, as one gets when a flute pad screw is loose. In effect, the damping properties of the pad in contact with the resonator probably stifles most vibration of these parts, so that they cannot resonate

I believe that the acoustic difference between a domed and a flat metal resonator is probably unmeasurable. Some people talk of the greater surface area of a domed resonator, but if you actually calculate the difference in area - an interesting challenge! - you find it is minute.

I believe that LARGE resonators on saxes are made domed for no other reason than that they are many times stronger, without being heavier, and press against the pad more securely where that pressure is needed to stabilise the thickness of the pad.

I believe that small resonators are made of a style simply to match the appearance of the large resonators.

Disclaimer: My beliefs are based on common sense, a reasonable smattering of science, personal experience, with a healthy injection of scepticism - after all, marketing rears itself as a factor here!

[Sandi]

Hello Friends
My thanks to Gordon(NZ), Citystone and all the others who share some feeling about the open vs closed hole flute issue. In order to play a quality flute, I have just bought a new Yamaha YFL 674 and a set of the Plug-o's (The best plugs so far) recommended by Xraydog. But after some time consuming research concerning just Yamaha flutes, I have found that in Europe and many other countries most of the professional models have the closed-hole and split E options.

Please go to www.yamaha.europe.com, find the UK Yamaha site where the descriptions are in English and work your way to flutes. You will find not only the YFL 311UK, but YFL411UK, YFL514UK, YFL614UK and YFL714UK. It has been held that a high quality flute had to have open holes but if I contact the stores in the UK and can purchase that YFL614UK, this YFL674US is as good as returned. I am just a sax player who just wants to play flute and not fight with holes.

Nothing that I have said is meant to hold the very many flute players who prefer open hole flutes in any contempt. All that I am saying is that there may be an option for those of us who prefer closed holes flutes.

Hi Bootman!! Did you ever get those Otto Link pieces?

Sandi

[Bootman]

Sandi,
Yes I got the mpc thanks.

I still find that the open hole flutes feel better than the closed hole. I tried several out again yesterday, perhaps it is familiarity, comfort or whatever but the tone and power of the open hole Muramatsu was much stronger than the closed hole model. At the end of the day, just play what works for you and don't worry about what the others think.

[bruce bailey]

Not to be always repeating myself, but there is always the resale factor. With a high line flute, it is always (at least in the US) easier to sell an open-hole flute. You can always plug the open holes, but it becomes expensive to open up a closed hole flute (I charge $500 minimum on a pro model).

[kymarto]

Open holes do change the venting and the sound radiation somewhat, and they can be very handy in modern music and jazz for 1/4 tones, glisses and whatnot, as well as providing some alternate fingerings.

I came to flute from clarinet and oboe, and I have never had a problem with finger position on open holes. I prefer open holes for the reasons mentioned above, but I have had both open and closed hole flutes and actually there is very little difference between them if you don't have sloppy fingers...

In terms of pad washers: "domed" ones would increase key weight and would also tend to interfere with the key clearance.

Toby

[Gordon (NZ)]

... But after some time consuming research concerning just Yamaha flutes, I have found that in Europe and many other countries most of the professional models have the closed-hole and split E options. ...

In llast year's catalogue in English from Japan, from the 200 series all the way up to the top professional 900 series (in gold), there are options for each model:

1. Ring keys, in line G, no split E
2. Ring keys, off-set G, split E
3. Covered keys, off-set G, Split E

Note the lack of covered holes, in-line.

In some models, not the top ones, there is also an option of
4. Ring keys, in-line G, split E.
5. Covered keys, off-set G, no split E.

It is only in the top models that in-line G can be had with split E. This particular combination is difficult to design and make so that it is reliable and not inclined to jam.

Yamaha caters for all tastes, and it seems that many of the common models models are rarely seen in USA. I counted up 34 model configurations, 22 of which have a B foot if you add 'H' to the model number, making a total of 56 configurations.

[Razzy]

It amazes me that a lot of sax players are opting for closed holes so that they don't have to "fight the instrument."

I started on a closed-hole offset-G C-foot Buescher flute in November of 2004, and switched to an open-hole Yamaha 581 inline-G B-foot in May. The flute had a cork in the hole of the G key. It took me about two days to get accustomed to the open holes and play on them as comfortably as I did on the closed holes. My playing's obviously not the best, with so little time actually studying the instrument, but this was done with about an hour of practicing a day, in various long tones, scales, and the 18 Berbiguier etudes for flute.

I'd say the most difficult part of this process was getting accusted to the RH little finger on C#, C and B. Finding these notes while keeping the D hole covered with the right ring finger was the only problem that presented itself, and I was able to correct it in about a half hour.

Two weeks later I removed the cork in the G key, and this presented problems for, again, about a half hour. Since then, no problems at all.

Methinks a lot of sax players are too heavy-handed and perhaps not too accurate in keeping their fingers on the pearls. My study of saxophone and keeping my fingers exactly on the center of the pearls translated easily to flute and clarinet (I began clarinet study shortly after flute study, in December 2004, with about an hour a day's practice since then).

Like Bootman, I prefer the way the instrument resonates beneath my fingers compared to a similar model plateau flute. It's not really a question of fashion as it is of feel and action. I keep my fingers poised on raised keys while playing (just as on saxophone), so there is very little "extra step" in closing the body tube, i.e. finger to hole, key to body. The finger is already on the hole, so this extra step is very minimal if not altogether absent.

Trying my flute against a similar model closed-hole flute, I have not noticed a difference in response, articulation, etc. Gordon's air test would seem to suggest that there will be a significant difference, but then how does anybody play an open-hole flute with ease and delicacy? Simple: they're not forcing air through the instrument, they're actuating a standing wave, just like on saxophone. Air will try to force out of any opening it can find if the end of the air column is plugged; standing waves (and indeed, airstreams) move past openings as long as they don't already have air leaks and as long as the air column terminates to open air! Gordon, please correct any errors in my logic, I do not possess your keen knowledge of physics!

[Gordon (NZ)]

The smallest of leaks are highly significant on flute, as they are on any woodwind.

You are correct in that there is insignificant steady pressure within the flute.

However, a standing wave consists of an air column where regions along the column have, to a greater or lesser degree, a violently oscillating change in air pressure.

Think of what the slapping reed does to the local air pressure. (The flute too has a reed, made of a stream of air)

Remove the register key of a clarinet and put your finger just above it, and feel the wind. It is not just coming out, as your image suggests, but is oscillating violently in and out.

Think hypothetically of a flute where all the keys were removed and thin latex was sealed over every hole. The flute does not leak air in the normal sense of the word, but oscillations in air pressure can most certainly be passed through the latex. Such a flute could not play the low note that you may think should work.

Note how tiny the octave vents need to be on a sax to wreck the low octave standing wave, and force the sound up an octave. On an oboe the vents are too small to get a pin through.

I hope that I am illustrating that the tiniest of leaks, especially in sensitive locations, significantly or majorly mess up the integrity of that standing wave.
The musician experienced enough to know how an instrument SHOULD play, will most certainly notice the difference that small leaks make. The leaks may not make the note up an octave, but they will make the note more 'reluctant' to begin and continue to sound. That is, they give the instrument a poor response that the player has to fight, especially in fast passages where there is little time available for a note to begin responding.

I have a test you may like to try, at a time perhaps when the skin on your fingers is dry. Put a cork in the lower end of your flute and finger the lowest note. Blow carefully and you will get a quiet note an octave lower than it would be without the cork. The flute was not designed for this low note, so the note is precarious, and ultra-sensitive to leaks. Try it with light finger pressure on an open hole flute, or a flute with ANY leaks.. It will not even sound.

Some flute players with open hole flutes, knowing they are going to play a strong lowest note, blow on their fingers prior to playing. This is to slightly moisten the fingers to enhance the seal - the seal that would have no problems at all in a well-adjusted closed-hole flute.

As a technician, all the metal handling (and regular damage) has made the skin on my fingers slightly thicker and harder perhaps than the average guy (but nowhere near as hard as that of a brick-layer or farmer). There is no way I can test an open hole flute for leaks without first plugging the holes. Otherwise far too much finger pressure would be required to seal those leaks along the finger print grooves.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Sorry, I don't know how the writing in the last post got so small.

[Razzy]

Are you saying that the energy produced by the standing wave of, say, a lowest B on a B-foot flute is equal to the energy of me forcefully blowing into the plugged up flute with the end plugged also? I tried another test today with the flute body... I closed all of the keys and holes normally and then contorted a bit to push the opposite end into my belly skin. I think suck in the end facing me and got a perfect seal and a "pop", with very little finger pressure closing the holes. When I tried to force air into the instrument, however, of course it was trying to leak out around my fingers, because that is the part that is most likely to move under such pressure. I don't think the standing wave is as powerful against the fingers as me forcing air into the flute in this position, or else I wouldn't be able to get those clear low D's and C's.

[Saxnflut]

It amazes me that a lot of sax players are opting for closed holes so that they don't have to "fight the instrument."
Hard to believe you are that amazed, as you basically explain why this is so, by saying:

Methinks a lot of sax players are too heavy-handed and perhaps not too accurate in keeping their fingers on the pearls.
Also, most sax players are not that dedicated to flute....so spending extra time & stress getting used to being as precise as needed, & putting up with the non-ergonomic placement required for the inline G, makes a closed-hole a no-brainer.

Like Bootman, I prefer the way the instrument resonates beneath my fingers compared to a similar model plateau flute. It's not really a question of fashion as it is of feel and action.

EXACTLY! Just as the older "fashion" of playing as hard a reed as possible has faded, so too, the closed vs open-hole controversy should simply one of which works & feels better for the individual, rather than one being "right or wrong", "better or worse"......

What "amazes" me, or at least puzzles me, is why so many buy an open-hole flute, only to play with plugs in the holes???
What's up with that?

For the record, I first started on an open-hole, and had no problem with it, but just happened to end up with a closed-hole via circumstances. Since I've used that one now for 30yrs, it would mean a period of adjustment to ever go back, so there would be no desire for me to do so...

And hey, if people can't get as high a resale value for a great flute that's open-holed, better for me! ;)

[Gordon (NZ)]

Are you saying that the energy produced by the standing wave of, say, a lowest B on a B-foot flute is equal to the energy of me forcefully blowing into the plugged up flute with the end plugged also? I tried another test today with the flute body... I closed all of the keys and holes normally and then contorted a bit to push the opposite end into my belly skin. I think suck in the end facing me and got a perfect seal and a "pop", with very little finger pressure closing the holes. When I tried to force air into the instrument, however, of course it was trying to leak out around my fingers, because that is the part that is most likely to move under such pressure. I don't think the standing wave is as powerful against the fingers as me forcing air into the flute in this position, or else I wouldn't be able to get those clear low D's and C's.

I'm not sure what you are saying.

1. At least with conventional pads, there is no such thing as achieving a PERFECTLY leak-proof flute, so I don't know what you mean by a perfect vacuum. The test is how long that suction lasts.

2. A pop is pretty meaningless. The pop is when you release a lowered pressure. A pop can be achieved with a leaky flute, if the pressure is released quickly before it seeps away.

3. You may have very soft finger skin, such that the finger print ridges are easily crushed to effect a seal.

4. I am not talking about the fingers MOVING under the pressures from the standing wave. I am talking about the air leaking along the fingerprint grooves without lifting the fingers.

I am saying that the air leaking along fingerprint grooves, constitutes a leak significant enough to be have some destructive effect on fundamental frequency.

[Gordon (NZ)]

"...It's not really a question of fashion as it is of feel and action..."
It has absolutely nothing to do with action!

And I suspect the issue of feel is nothing more than a feeling of prestige that one has talked oneself into, associated with feeling a hole under one's finger. That is how gullible the human mind is.

[bruce bailey]

A closed hole can actually be better in the lower end due to having metal washers on the pads vs. a fingertip. The main reason I would say to go with an open hole is resale. In the US a higher or medium end flute will bring 20-50% more in open hole. I have solid silver (keys too) closed hole C foot flutes that would be worth twice the money if they were open hole B foot. Flute players are a strange bunch as they just have to be like the other players.

[Saxnflut]

The main reason I would say to go with an open hole is resale. In the US a higher or medium end flute will bring 20-50% more in open hole. I have solid silver (keys too) closed hole C foot flutes that would be worth twice the money if they were open hole B foot. Flute players are a strange bunch as they just have to be like the other players.

I wonder why you post this "advice" over & over on the same thread.....
Quite honestly, I wonder how many serious musicians buy instruments with how much resale value it will bring? The overwhelmingly top important factor to most of us (as "strange a bunch" as you may wish to believe), in choosing an instrument, is HOW MUCH WE'LL LIKE PLAYING IT!

Besides, if what you say is true, then your advice is backwards, you should be advising others TO buy one of those many great closed-hole flutes that are bargain-basement priced, yeah? Why join the crowd & buy over-priced flutes?

The only instruments I've sold are those I may not have liked all that much (or a couple I HAD to sell due to financial necessity at the time), while those I play regularly stick around... Besides, the fact that open hole flutes sell for more, also mean they are bought for more, so where's the logic, or gain in that? Why would one ever buy a flute they may not like playing that much, at any price, or with any greater ease of selling it again? Of course, if you are only buying & selling for profit, then maybe it makes some sense, altho, just because they sell for more, hardly makes them any more of a good deal....

Plus, we all know that used instrument pricing is quite a volatile & often irrational situation. Cruising Ebay, I constantly see somebody somewhere way overpaying (IMHO) for various instruments listed. It only takes one person who believes any particular axe is worth X-amount to them, for someone to make a sale. Conversely, there are times when things are sold under-"value", simply because that's all someone can get at the time, and they're willing to sell. I've experienced both ends of it, whether buying or selling.

And personally, I'm thrilled that I've now been told I can most likely find good deals on some under-priced closed hole flutes out there...:)

[Michael Ward]

The open hole preference wasn't nearly as prevalent in the UK ten years ago as it is now and shops just don't carry closed hole flutes past a certain level. A couple of years ago I bought an open hole Conservatory Powell that was superb but after years of closed hole playing I gave up adjusting to open and the plugs just destroyed the response.I guess they're ok temporarily but the difference in and out was night and day. I had to special order a closed hole Muramatsu and after a repad it plays very well however if Id tried it in the shop I would have passed..it was unplayable. I understand about the response through the fingers on the open hole although no one complains about it on top end piccs, altos and basses.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Open hole used to be a rarity in shops here. Not now.
I think the reasons are very simple:

1. Blindly copying a fashion from USA, who blindly copied it from France.
2. Ignorant players following a silly notion that one cannot be even a good player without an open hole flute.
3. As soon as there is ANY demand for open hole, a retailer would have to carry twice the stock to offer both, which for many shops would be economically disastrous, so the obvious choice for them is the open-hole only, which can be plugged to turn it into closed hole.

[jrbrook76]

I have an open hole Armstrong (it was a surpirse gift, so I have no choice over what I want).

Anyway, I have been playing this flute with the holes plugged. But out of curiosity, I took out the plugs and tried playing it. To my surprise, I couldn't even produce a single note. I thought I might not have closed the holes properly with my fingers but I tried to deliberately close it tightly and still produced no sound. Things were back to normal when I re-plugged the holes though.

Could this be due to myself or the instrument?

I never favored open hole flutes anyway....should I get a new closed one instead?

I need a flute that is easy to play and has a nice rich tone...and is not too expensive.

Any comments on a Yamaha 300 series? A flutist once recommended this to me.

Thanks in advance
First Off: Visit the Larry Krantz Flute pages. It's a wonderful site with info from ALL of the great teachers of flute in the world today. Google it.

No offense to some of the more knowledgable saxophonists here, but: This Saxophone listing has too many saxophonists that think they know everything about the flute just because they double or do repair work. You should pay attention to what the professional flutists and teachers of the flute have to say. Jeanne Baxtresser, Carol Wincenc, Jeff Khaner, Paula Robison, John Wion (below) Google them and see what you can find about what THEY have to say and less from people with a "screen name" who you know absolutely nothing about and they could be (and sometimes are) a high schooler.

My advice as a professional flutist, teacher, and student: You should play whatever kind of flute sounds and feels the best to YOU. Try them. Try as many different flutes as you can. Don't ever let anyone (even your teacher) try to convince you that Closed Hole or Offset-G flutes are for beginners only. My first teacher did this even to students with tiny hands...one of whom developed carpal tunnel syndrome as a result and her hands went numb during rehearsals and practicing. You MUST be able to play with a comfortable hand position, and if an in-line open-hole flute is not comfortable then by all means DON'T let other people tell you that you are less of a flutist for having a plateau flute.

I tend to like to plug my holes when I play baroque music or classical music. When playing 20th Century works I take the plugs out. There is not a significant intonation problem at least not to me. I treat my plugged flute as a different flute than when the plugs are out. Like it's 2 different instruments, which essentially it has become that way. Don't let people tell you there isn't a difference. There is a difference.

In fact, MANY professional symphony flutists use closed-hole flutes.

John Wion (Principal Flutist, New York City Opera 1965-2002) is a great example of an advocate for the closed hole flute:

John Wion on Open Hole Flutes:

"I would like to add a couple of things to this discussion, having changed to closed hole in 1980 after twenty years on an open hole - the best thing I ever did. No less an authority than Albert Cooper, the English flute maker who played such a big role in the improved intonation of flutes in the last twenty years, believes that closed holes are accoustically superior to open. My three Brannens have certainly been great sounding (including the top octave), and the intonation is sufficiently accurate that I do not miss the shading possibilities that are given as reasons for open holed flutes (and there *are* still alternative fingerings we can use). It is true that a very small percentage of the world's flutists need open holes to play certain pieces of twentieth century music, but that is no reason for many other flutists to fight an ongoing battle against low notes that don't speak at the most awkward moment (The slow movement of the Prokofiev Sonata became a joy instead of a trial for me!). I understand the argument that open holes force (young?) students to adopt *correct* positions, and am sure that this is true in many cases. But these correct positions put considerable strain on the hands of many others. I see such strains year after year turn to tendonitis in college students who are trying to force their techniques towards professional goals. There is a great temptation in our society to force conformity (speaking as a leftie who was forced to become a rightie). Just as there was a time when offset embouchures were a no-no, I believe the time will come when "If you want to be a serious flutist you must buy an openholed flute" will spring LESS automatically to the teacher's lips. And if I'm lucky it will happen by the time I want to retire and sell my flutes! Back to the pit.

The popularity of the French sytem in the US came with the French flutists who were brought to staff the great orchestras. People such as Laurent in Boston, Barrere in New York, and Macquarre in Philadelphia, allowed their Louis Lot flutes to be copied by Haynes and later Powell and encouraged their students to buy and play these flutes, replacing the German tradition of closed hole that had preceded it. (It is generally true that this became the change from wooden to metal flutes as well.) Kincaid, the most influential native US teacher was a student of Barrere, and was playing an open-holed flute quite possibly before Rampal was born!

[jrbrook76]

In case there is confusion, the plugs plug the holes that are through the key cups - only five key cups involved.

I've met three types.

1. A cylinder of cork or silicon rubber which jams right inside the hole, and level with the top of the hole.
2. Imagine a short plastic tube (nylon) which jams into the key cup hole. Integral with this tube is a disc, capping it, so we have a cross-section like the greek letter 'pi'. These plug the holes. The disadvantage is that they have the disc part between the finger and the original key cup, which does not feel the best under the finger.

Both of the above, unless they are just right for the diameter of the holes, can leak.

3. The Powell type already mentioned by somebody else. Like 2, except that the tube part is solid, and the whole thing is made from metal. The disc can therefore be very thin and less of an interference. This metal plug seals inside the key cup by having a groove around the, containing a rubber O-Ring. Very neat. Simple to make, but very expensive, I suppose, especially if made from rhodium. Much cheaper if they were part of a kid's toy! :-)

The Powell "Plug-O's" are available at fluteworld.com for 23 bucks. Not expensive and I love them. You can see a photo http://fluteworld.com/index.php?action=prod&wart=13902 . The Brannen plugs are the ones that are very expensive...but I'm not sure why they are so expensive. They are 500.00 a set.

[jrbrook76]

Not to be always repeating myself, but there is always the resale factor. With a high line flute, it is always (at least in the US) easier to sell an open-hole flute. You can always plug the open holes, but it becomes expensive to open up a closed hole flute (I charge $500 minimum on a pro model).

YES!! By ALL means choose your instrument because of resale value! There should be more people like you giving advice.......ridiculous. Forget about what sounds and feels the best. Play a flute that hurts your hands! But, by God you can sell it easier once it give you tendonitis and you have to give up playing. That's the BEST advice ever....you're a genius.

[fluteragious]

Hi JR,
You might remember me... I post under Kara on 8notes. Glad to see you here. :)

Anyway, I also use the Powell plug o's and love them. When you say that Brannen has plugs out for $500 are you sure that you aren't confusing them with the key extensions? If not then that is nuts!!

[bruce bailey]

Seeing as MOST player change horns at some time in their lives, resale IS a consideration. Often players think they will never part with the instrument they bought in high school only to find out 10 years later that there is something more in line with their current playing. I will agrre with you that there are some who regard an instrument as something of little future value and just purchase it to satisfy a current need. Although I do prefer a closed hole, I cannot see telling a student who is spending over $2,000 for a flute to go with a closed hole only to have the flute rejected by some instuctor who insists on his/her students playing on an open hole. Money is still an influence in the purchase of an instrument.

[Saxnflut]

Seeing as MOST player change horns at some time in their lives, resale IS a consideration. Often players think they will never part with the instrument they bought in high school only to find out 10 years later that there is something more in line with their current playing. I will agrre with you that there are some who regard an instrument as something of little future value and just purchase it to satisfy a current need. Although I do prefer a closed hole, I cannot see telling a student who is spending over $2,000 for a flute to go with a closed hole only to have the flute rejected by some instuctor who insists on his/her students playing on an open hole. Money is still an influence in the purchase of an instrument.

I see your point Bruce, I guess I was just speaking from a pro player point of view. When it comes to a horn, flute, mouthpiece, etc., it is that obsession for getting that "just right" sound, which makes concern about resale, about the same as having a pre-nup would be, for an idealistic romantic! ;)

But still, as long as the price they paid for the closed-hole was in line with market value, then there's no loss involved, yeah?

[bruce bailey]

For sure. As I mentioned on another thread, there are fantastic bargains on closed hole pro flutes. About a year ago there was a Brannen floating around in the $3,500 range that would have been twice that open holed. One of the great doublers here in the 60s had an open Powell for real flute gigs but kept a vintage Selmer sterling in the sax case. I think the Selmer played better. I generally use an old Conn Wonder 2 Piece closed hole for my own playing. I have had $15K flutes but my ego doesn't require one. Another thought may be that I need all the help I can get so I should play on a Powell.

[shmuelyosef]

Seeing as MOST player change horns at some time in their lives, resale IS a consideration. Often players think they will never part with the instrument they bought in high school only to find out 10 years later that there is something more in line with their current playing. I will agrre with you that there are some who regard an instrument as something of little future value and just purchase it to satisfy a current need. Although I do prefer a closed hole, I cannot see telling a student who is spending over $2,000 for a flute to go with a closed hole only to have the flute rejected by some instuctor who insists on his/her students playing on an open hole. Money is still an influence in the purchase of an instrument.
I think this is not so much of an issue as long as you stay in the used market and pay competitive prices.

[Gordon (NZ)]

...only to have the flute rejected by some instuctor who insists on his/her students playing on an open hole. ...

Is this madness really that common in your country? I find it unbelievable!

[shmuelyosef]

Yes, this is not the only topic where madness prevails in our country...e.g. Super Bowl, President...

[JButky]

Is this madness really that common in your country? I find it unbelievable!

There are some schools that will tell you to get a particular brand and the teacher will even pick it out FOR you. Doesn't matter if you like it ya know. The teacher knows best. Wish they would pay for it too if that's the case.

Joe B

[MRC01]

Is this madness really that common in your country? I find it unbelievable!
Human nature being what it is, there are kooks in every country. I would not say this is common in the USA and certainly no good instructor would do that.

IMO, a good instructor may (and should) recommend (or disrecommend) certain flutes based on his experience. But to specify exactly what kind of flute a student should play goes beyond the ridiculous. There are far too many different good flutes to choose from.

[bruce bailey]

I have had college instructors INSIST that a student plays a Brannen or Burkart. If the student has a Pearl of similar, they get handed to a grad assistant for lessons. The thinking is that if you are going to study to be a top line symphony player, you should have the best flute (rubbish). Some "advise" the grad students to have gold only. Lucky for me that about 60% here say to buy my flutes (warranty and price). When I was in school I think about 95% of the flute students played on a Haynes.

[Bootman]

Brand snobbery is very much alive in flute world here. I wish people would use their ears and not the brand name to chose their new flute.

I have no problem with anyone playing on open or closed holes, I prefer open hole myself having tried the closed hole thing many times. I have owned Haynes, Muramatsus with closed holes too which were great but there is a feeling of something missing that I can always find with a well set up open hole flute.

In fact having just been through the whole buying a new flute thing, the you must buy this flute advice was coming thick and fast. In many ways this was helpful but in the end I had to go with the flute that felt best for me, regardless of brand name. I purchased a hand made John Lehner flute that simply played better than the Powells, Muramtsus, Haynes, Altus, Sanyo, Pearls, Miyazawas that I could find here to test it out here. It has been several months now and the more I play this flute, the better it gets and the more I discover that this flute can do.

If anyone knows of an older Haynes or Muramatsu floating about, I could do with a nice playing back up flute for dangerous gigs.

[gary]

I have had college instructors INSIST that a student plays a Brannen or Burkart. If the student has a Pearl of similar, they get handed to a grad assistant for lessons.
Guys like that should be flogged! What arrogance and self-aggrandising pomposity. I fart in their general direction.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/DrJazz_/frenchman1.jpg

[Bootman]

Good to see another Python fan!

[bruce bailey]

"That parrot is in fact dead" and "your cat needs to be confused" are my favorite MPs.

[Bootman]

I always been partial to the Knights that say "nee". Brave, brave Sir Robin who bravely turned and ran away! And the Black Knight!