Italian saxes

[spiderjames]

Italian product are generally of excellent quality. How come there saxes do not seem to be very widely used or accepted as pro horns. Is it the workmanship? intonation? materials? I have seen many that have very elaborate engraving and nice "looking" keywork keyguards etc... Are there any italian saxes worth looking at as players.

[knighttrain]

I have two Italian Saxes. One is an Alexandre Pro Tenor. The other is an Orsi Bari. The Alexandre is a pretty good sax. It has a strong voice, but can whisper also - a nice blues horn. Biggest fault is that altissimo does not come easily. The Orsi, conversely, is not strong for a Bari. It does play easily, but has a quieter sound, and the metal is not as thick as most vintage horns. Most folks that play it say they like the way it plays, but that it's no Selmer. Best thing about an Orsi is the value - good for the money. Haven't played any other Italian makes.

[spiderjames]

I see alot of italian saxes on ebay that look like buffets or malerne saxes. Mostly because of the keyguard design. Any chance that they are?

[singlereed]

I would think not - if you have it (being French), flaunt it - 'Italian' not carrying the same cachet in the sax world. Granted, there are some nice horns being made in Italy now, but is has not generally been so in the past.

[DougR]

I recently met a rather strange Italian Alto.
Sliver plated, Split bell keys, nice tone, BUT.

No front F - fair enough.
No 1/1 or 1/2 Bb - what?
No Bis.

Be careful, there's weird stuff out there.

[David Spiegelthal]

Doug,
Your Italian alto is not necessarily 'weird' --- it might just be an old horn. My 1920's Cavalier (USA) alto, a Conn stencil as best we can determine, was also lacking the front F and the 'bis' key (although I retrofitted these from another donor horn to modernize it). For a while I was playing on a 1970's-vintage Ida Maria Grassi alto, it was actually a pretty nice horn. And Borgani has had a good reputation for many years, especially for their sopranos. If you happen to want and can afford a contrabass (!) sax, I believe Romeo Orsi is the only company in the world that makes them (is that true, anybody??).

[DougR]

Dave, yes it was an old horn, The owner estimated 1920s or possibly early 1930s. It seemed well enough built. the Front F and bis were small issues, but the missing 1/1 ???

Went horn shopping last year, and the only thing that stopped me buying a new Borgani was the price. The current production output is excellent and well worth checking out.

[spiderjames]

I have seen some that look a lot like Conn's; rolled tone holes, microtuner, mercedes key guards, the whole nine yards. I've been tempted to buy one just to see how & what they are.

[cuthbert]

Well,I'm italian,so I know this topic well enough,I think,because these intruments are pretty common in my country.
First thing:not to ask an opinion to an italiane.They will tell you that any sax produced uotside Italy is better.They don't recognise the value of what's good in their country.Said this,the most important names (there were many other,but the more avaible are these ) are the following:

1)Borgani (Macerata)
2)Orsi (Milano)
3)Grassi (Trento)
4)Rampone e Cazzani (somewhere in Piemonte on a lake...I remenber)

Borgani recently developed a line of beatiful instruments that are very appreciated by their owners (americans...) who write in thissite.If you want a new Borgani,don't think it too much.For sure is at least a good instrument.Instead,much try to avoid the old saxes,they have a very bad reputation,specially as feeling and intonation.Ecception:it seems that their sopranos were always well made,I wonder why.Only working with big names (Lovano,Mulligan...) helped Borg to improve their quality to today standard,before they made instruments specially for brass municipal bands.

Orsi:this is a very huge factory that produce,also on request,almost EVERY instrument in which you've to blow in.I suggest to visit their site,it's impressive.But this wide offer didn't allow them to focalise on a certain instrument so their sax aren't really bad,are honest instruments but nothing more.Theyare very famous because of their sopranino e cotrabbasso,but honestly I think that they don't have much concurrents in the field.Altos and tenors aren't renowed but however as I said they are "honest".

Grassi:sadly,what was the best sax factory in Italy shut down in 2000.Lady Grassi was very old ,around the 90s,and she wasn't able to carry on.Nobody of their nephews wanted to be involved in the enterprise so it died.If it's sadly enough,it closed when started the production of the last and the best sax by Grassi,the Professional 2000.I tried it along with a Selmer IIIrd series and it was MUCH MUCH better.If you find one,purchase it!The other instruments were the leader (don't be fooled by the name,a student model) equipareble to the Yamaha 52,and the old Prestige,professional model good but not special.The older model are very well done but nothing more than Selmer mk VI copies.

Rampone & Cazzani:probably the most hated in Italy because of the two surnames (sound horrible in italian) they started to build Big Bore saxes realising that a lot of players still wanted the old Conn sound instead of the same old Selmer sound.Borgani swiftly followed.Keilwerth understood it before,but R e C bringed the concept of Big Bore to the extreme conseguences:the bore is the wider in commerce and the instruments of the series R1 and R1 Jazz (in which it's used a different alloy of brass) are probably the best saxes in the World.Unfornutaly they are quite expensive and difficult to find,specially in Italy.I was said that in the North-East,the richest part of Italy I live in,they don't have a distributor and if I want it the sax will be directly shipped by them!
About the old ones,I can't say anything:they are quite rare in Italy (because of hte name...) and I never played one,so I don't feel in the position of judging.

I hope these informations will be useful for somebody.

[Dave Dolson]

I owned the R&C tipped-bell sop and still own an R&C sopranino. Both were/are excellent saxophones. I traded the soprano because it was so difficult to rack on-stage while playing clarinet or alto. Other than that, it was a sweet player and garned lots of compliments about its sound. Both are 24kt gold-plated, fully engraved and just gorgeous to look at. Other reports about the R&C sops have been favorable. DAVE

[spol73]

I own a Martin-Busine tenor sax which turns out to be made in italy. I overhauled it and it turnes out to have a powerfull sound. Intonation is a big problem though. a2, b2, c2 are about 20 cents under. D2 palm is total out where as D3 is in tune. Cuthbert, what can you tell me about the horn?

[cuthbert]

I own a Martin-Busine tenor sax which turns out to be made in italy. I overhauled it and it turnes out to have a powerfull sound. Intonation is a big problem though. a2, b2, c2 are about 20 cents under. D2 palm is total out where as D3 is in tune. Cuthbert, what can you tell me about the horn?

Never heard before!Maybe it´s a stencil....any pics?

As far as you describe it (good sound,flat intonation) could be a old Borgani...i´m waiting for the pics!

[David Spiegelthal]

I'm pretty sure "Martin-Busine" saxes and clarinets (and maybe other instruments?) were the student line of the French Martin Freres company (not to be confused with the American Martin Band Instrument Company). I've seen some Martin-Busine clarinets which were also made in Italy.

[stitch]

I'm pretty sure they came up in another thread a while ago; have you tried a search?

[cuthbert]

I own a Martin-Busine tenor sax which turns out to be made in italy. I overhauled it and it turnes out to have a powerfull sound. Intonation is a big problem though. a2, b2, c2 are about 20 cents under. D2 palm is total out where as D3 is in tune. Cuthbert, what can you tell me about the horn?

Is it printed "made in Italy"?

[LBAjazz]

I have seen numerous old Evette& schaeffer altos that say "Made in Italy". They were pretty bad.

[cuthbert]

I have seen numerous old Evette& schaeffer altos that say "Made in Italy". They were pretty bad.


:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

[LBAjazz]

Wow 18 question marks! That's some serious doubt.So, I went thru my old log books and d*mn if you aren't right. I didn't find any that said "& Schaeffer". I did, however, find 5 altos and 1 tenor marked "Italy" or "made in Italy" that were "Evette" branded and I found 1 "Reynolds Medalist" made in Italy that I had written "Evette style" in parenthesis. I also found a "Vito" marked "Italy" ! Other Italian saxes I have worked on, according to my log books... "LaMonte", "Benetone", one marked either "Warner" or "Werner" or "Wirner" [I cannot read my writing on this entry], and "Beverly". I also found an "Esquire" alto made in Holland! There were several wood and metal clarinets with French sounding names that were marked "Italy".

[Sakae]

Other Italian saxes I have worked on, according to my log books... "LaMonte", "Benetone", one marked either "Warner" or "Werner" or "Wirner" [I cannot read my writing on this entry], and "Beverly"
Lol.. Don't know why, but my guess would be Werner. That's the word which is more likely an sax (lol)

Anyway, my sax is a Benetone. As I'm not familiarized with people who play sax (I guess I'm the only one in a circle of 20 km), I don't know if it's good or not...

I just CAN'T play high D in my alto, when changing from C... Actually, I'm starting to play sax once again, so my guess is that's normal, huh?

[SAXISMYAXE]

I've demo played the latest Borgani and R & C pro horns, and feel they are some of the best modern interpretations of the classic American vintage horns being offered today. The only two solid reasons why I feel they aren't being purchased by a wider market is due to: both companies dropping the ball quality wise up till recently, especially Borgani( who, up till recently, were offering only student grade horns. They are having to live this reputation down among the less informed consumers), And secondly, they simply do not market their horns to enough distibutors in the U.S. to stand a chance. They are going to have to be more vigilant in their marketing if they want a bigger share of the market. The quality of their horns deserve better, IMHO.

[Captain Beeflat]

Saxismyaxe.
Surely the main reason for so few Borganis & Rampone & Cazzani around is the fact that they make so few. Not sure about Borgani's policy but in the case of R&C they hand build four or five beautiful saxopones every week & consequently appeal to a small niche market. To build and sell more saxophones would require some degree of batch or mass production & this is not what they are about.
Try contacting Yamaha requesting non standard finishes, keywork and neck brace! R&C were delighted to oblige; but, that's not the point; they are different - Yamaha produce superb instruments which are identical to each other & it is easy to see why people buy them in such large numbers. R&C buyers are perhaps a little less prosaic, more touchy feely who like the indiviluality& attention to detail plus a huge unique voice.......regards..............Bb

[SAXISMYAXE]

Captain,
Point well taken, but if they don't stir up a greater demand for their horns, in the economic market we live in today, I don't see how they will be able to compete. In this day and age, there is a limit to how custom/handcrafted one can go manufacturing costly products before your limited output and price to cost ratio sends your company the way of the dodo. At the present rate, I can't see them making much of an impact on the Saxophone market profit wise. Hope I turn out to be wrong, because they really do put out some nice horns.

[josephmd]

In Italy, there are lots of small shops that employ suberb craftsmen. They seem to value the quality of their work more than commercial success. I love my Borgani and am awaiting a custom leather case.

[Captain Beeflat]

Saxismyaxe.
Please remember also that R&C have been making wind instruments since circa 1832, plenty of time to decide their manufacturing/marketing policies.............kindest...............Bb.

[pepesax]

I don't see the point of being concerned about how many horns a saxophone maker should produce to be in the market. The only fact I'm concerned about is that such good producers are still able to make quality saxophones and I am lucky enough to buy from them. I own a R&C saxophone and I must say I'm not bothered about the quantity of saxes they sell. The only thing that matters to me is the high quality of the instrument they can offer at a better price compared to other big brand names. Moreover, the lower number of saxes produced is the best guarantee that such skillful craftsmen will only sell thoroughly checked and perfectly working and durable horns along with the certainty of a better and direct assistance.

[Captain Beeflat]

Pepesax. You say that you are not concerned about the output of a sax. manufacturer - well I am. Like you, I own an R&C tenor. If they attempted the output of Yamaha, they, in order to justify the increased output, would have to appeal to a large swathe of the buying public; consequently they would be forced to produce a horn with a bland, somewhat anonymous sound. Of equal importance is that they do not have the necessary mass production skills. Yamaha, using their experimental and R&D staff, could probably make a better bespoke sax than R&C's hypothetical Mass Production horn.
Fortunately for all of us, some manufactures are proud of their high output in making an excellent item which appeals to many. Others place high value on their expertise in hand making an individual horn to the exact specification of their more particular (& possibly more eccentric) customers; albeit at a higher price. Was it not Henry Royce who said "the quality will remain long after the price has been forgotten"?
There is room in this world for both Ford and Maserati...............:-)...Bb

[SAXISMYAXE]

Captain,
That was another time, and another era. Conn was the greatest manufacturer of handmade Saxophones for over 50 years; In this modern market, where are they? There is a good reason why nearly all of the quality American and European makers are or have been left by the wayside. The Asian manufacturers and their modern methods, for better or worse, have seized the day. As labor becomes more and more expensive in the Western world, prices are becoming less and less tolerable for the working and amatuer saxophonist. Remember: Borgani and R & C were making crap student horns for quite some time, untill recently. Although their present offerings are fine horns, it is WAY to early to tell if they will be able to stick with it. It is great for a business venture to have higher ideals and not let profit rule the day, but the bottom line at the end of the day has to be the almighty dollar, if only to stay solvant. As the saying goes.... time will tell.

[pepesax]

[...]....There is room in this world for both Ford and Maserati...............:-)...Bb
Captain Beeflat, I suppose you mean Maserati when speaking about R&C saxophones. I believe if a Maserati cost the same price as a Ford, no one would buy Ford anymore (although in that case Maserati should consider how to develop mass production to face the increased demand). The difference is that R&C saxophones cost even less than, say, a custom Yamaha. Where is the trick, then?
pepesax

[Captain Beeflat]

Pepesax.
Surely it is BECAUSE Maserati will never be able to match Ford's output that their handmade products are considered paramount by the cognoscenti. Remember also that few seasoned Ford drivers would tolerate the quirky nature of a Maserati.
With respect to the fact that Rampone & Cazzani horns are less expensive than top of the range Yamahas, I would ask you to keep your voice down..........SSShhhhhh... everyone will want one............regards.Bb

[pepesax]

Got the message, Captain Bb, :wink:
I will keep the secret!
pepesax

[Azuka]

I've run into a couple of Martin Busine's one a tenor and the other an alto. Both have great powerful voices and are a pleasure to play. I'm not sure who made them though. Pretty sure they are not Rampone e Cazzani though. Perhaps a Grassi product. I understand that they were a cheap mail order item in the 60's and 70's and had a surprisingly great sound.

My alto has had the lacquer removed from the bell and the neck, revealing a white colored metal on the bell and brass colored metal on the neck. Not sure what the bell is made from, but perhaps could be the key to the wonderful sound.

anybody out there know anything about these horns?

[usda]

I picked up an alto from a pawn shop... for $60...got it working somewhat...surprising tone, sweeter than my 1963 Bundy, for sure. Although still has leaks...took it to a tech. The name is Andra Ravane...Not sure of the last name spelling...as the tech is doing repair. It seems over 20 years old and where the laquior is coming off...shows lots of copper color. No dents, heavy brass...keys very brisk, nice feel to them.

The tech thinks it's an Italian make...has anyone ever heard of it.