Soprano sax/Constitutional protection

[toot suite]

toot suite
User ID: 1007814 Feb 2nd 9:42 AM
Is it just me, or is enduring the tonal effluvium of a soprano saxophone a cruel and unusual punishment? It is astonishing to me that while the character and timbre of saxophones are typified differently throughout the various registers, they maintain certain similar pleasing qualities but for the abberation of the soprano, whose sound is such a hideous departure into shrill, membrane rupturing, thin tonality that paradoxically retains a stuffy, swallowed-up quality. Kind of like an oboe on steroids being played into a sock drawer....which is where I wish they stayed. It would also seem that with the declining musical sophistication of the general public, musicians (you should pardon the expression) like Kenny G. and others have hooked their tendrils into the so called, "adult contemporary" market which also masquerades as modern jazz. It is, of course, a perversion of jazz, but that's grist for another mill.

Even among the established jazz figures such as John Coltrane, Jimmy Guiffre, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Stitt, and others who have performed and recorded on soprann....I find I am almost instinctively repelled by the innately objectionable emanations from those little horns.

I once heard a silver plated curved Martin Handcraft soprano that I will confess, was almost tolerable. Am I alone in suffering from this instincive revulsion? Is there such a thing as a soprano that sounds more like a saxophone? Are there any good jazz players whose main axe is a soprano? I feel like I'm missing the boat here, and wonder if I shouldn't be so elated that it sails without me. No flamers....considered opinions welcome.
Bari Martin
User ID: 1801454 Feb 2nd 10:09 AM
Hear, hear.
Big Nick
User ID: 8841313 Feb 2nd 11:26 AM
Steve Lacy

Razzy
User ID: 8924643 Feb 2nd 11:45 AM
This post is the saxophonic equivalent of a political libel such as "Screw Bush and his administration! But please, in response to my opinions, I ask that Bush and his administration be objective and unbiased."

The soprano, I admit, does not sound like other saxophones. There's definitely something lacking in its tone that is present in other saxes, or at least that most players of it are unable to bring from their other horns. I have heard to date two soprano players that I enjoyed very much and found their tones to be similar to the timbres of other saxes and thus very pleasing: Sidney Bechet, and my teacher Frank Mazzeo. Opposite ends of the spectrum really but you get the idea. My teacher plays soprano in the New Jersey Saxophone Quartet and his sound could be characterized as merely a higher pitched alto quality with just a little more brightness and reedyness to it. His sound never becomes "thin" as may be characteristic of many players, like Kenny G, John Coltrane (I can't wait to hear the response to lopping those two in any sort of category together!) Bechet on the other hand reminds me much of what Bird might have sounded like if he'd played soprano, with of course that wonderfully perverse french vibrato... an acquired taste I admit ;)
Dr G
User ID: 7468553 Feb 2nd 11:51 AM
Jane Ira Bloom
Dave Dolson
User ID: 9209903 Feb 2nd 11:53 AM
Toot suite: I've played soprano as my main instrument for over 46 years, but I must agree in much of what you said. Except for Bechet, Bob Wilber, Stan MacDonald (from the Boston area), and some other traditionalists, I find modern-style soprano playing to be . . . well . . . awful. Not only am I unable to hear much melody in modernists' playing, but I do not like the tone they achieve. It IS cruel and unusual. DAVE

[toot suite]

I've taken the liberty of copy/pasting the thread I started from what is apparently the obsolete discussion board to here......ok, let's continue.

Razzy....I get your point vis-a-vis libel, but the analogy is really not accurate. It is not libelous to express a matter of taste (or distaste). Libel refers to an unjust or intentionally misleading defamation. Saying "screw bush and his administration" is not even an opinion, but merely a negative nonsequitur. If more descriptive information were provided, your description of Georgie W. would hardly qualify as libel. It would represent a succinct assessment of the man's talents, such as they are, with clarity and insight. Also, my closing remark was made because I knew my post could be construed as inflammatory....but not defamatory. People are welcome to express their bias...but not to take gratuitous nasty pot shots (flaming). ok...now that the semantics are out of the way.....

Thanks for the various suggestions people offered regarding soprano sax performers I might try listening to for a new experience.

Dave, your comment, "I've played soprano as my main instrument for over 46 years, but I must agree in much of what you said. " brought a smile to my face and is sure to appeal to masochists everywhere!

[Anonymous]

I also agree with Dr G and Dave Dolson. Even a well-played soprano is an acquired taste, and most of the modern soprano-playing is, imho, unlistenable, both musically and tone-wise.

I've been wrestling with soprano for a couple of years now, after 30 years as stictly a tenor player. Paul Coats calls soprano "the little beast", and that's certainly appropriate.

[Straightsax]

Talk about opening a can of worms. Well, forget about the worms, Pandora is out of the box and on the treadmill at the gym. In some ways I feel a "bait" in this post and in other ways it is legitimate.

Like it or not Adolph Sax did in fact create a soprano along with the other saxophones that you find more pleasing to your ear. Maybe that is where it ends, who knows? But to imply, infer and otherwise state that just about every, if not all, soprano saxophones and the players of these horns are glorified snake charmers is rather unkind, misplaced and totally insensitive. However, once I was told that Adolph Sax created the soprano to compete with the baroque trumpet which is the reason for a soprano sax part in Ravel's Bolero, unlike the other members of the saxophone family. So, Toot's it my be in Adolph's design. But, honestly I really can't say.

My first gut reaction to the original post in this thread is that if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. Get a soprano and show us how it is done. No one is holding you back. What do you want out of one's life? Come on in, the water is just fine. Give yourself a few years however, because it doesn't happen in a day. Trust me on that one. And even if you have been playing alto, tenor or baritone for years, given your expectations.

The last part of my vent pertains to market forces which no current soprano player whether having played for over a decade or just starting last week is responsible for. Anyone who has been on any kind of scene knows that for every "star" out there, there is at least one or two cats in every city that can blows these market gods away. Provided further, if in fact there was such a player as you describe who had a recording out there to your liking there is no guarantee that it would be a best seller. Without the marketing, these items collect dust on the shelf. Why do people buy what they do? I've given up on that a long time ago.

Now onto my considered opinion, which will be as considered as one can muster.

The range of the soprano is the first hurdle one has to surmount. The is not an easy hurdle to master. As with strings, the double bass and cello are not a violin and there is nothing worse than a shrill violin. Due to the high range of the soprano, any variance in pitch is more highly noticeable than with other members of the saxophone family. A soprano will never sound like an alto or a tenor, just like a violin will never sound like a cello or a double bass. Violins have less wood than other members of their string family and soprano have less brass than other members of the saxophone family. Consequently, one cannot legitimately expect the warmth and depth provided by the additional dimension of the instruments in the lower ranges to be present in the soprano or the violin. Conversely, there must be an acknowledgment on the part of soprano players that they are handicapped in this regard and must make every effort not to sound shrill, whiny or fall into the category of a high pitch buzz saw. In today's global market, advances in the soprano are sure to come and maybe one of these days will be in the offing. Otherwise, the person that can play soprano well are a rare breed. And that doesn't mean just getting a note out of the horn. All of these folks who have mastered that degree of warmth that high up have my unfettered respect.

The second hurdle one has to surmount is the technical efficiency in playinf a soprano. Soprano saxophones are the V-12 Jaguars of the saxophone family. Just ask any repair person. A clunker or junker simply do not exist because they cannot operate efficiently in the high range. One doesn't drive the family car out on Laguna Seca or the Indy 500. They are more sensitive to temperature changes because of the lack of extra metal. They have the tightest tolerances of all saxophones. A hair line adjustment on a soprano is the equivalent of major adjustment on any other member of the saxophone family. One can adjust alto's by kilometers, but soprano's are adjusted by millimeters by comparison. Whether that involves mouthpiece placement on the cork or tension in one's embouchure. The extra control in the embouchure goes up in quantum leaps especially in the second and third partials. Otherwise, one is relegated to the snake charmer category. Just because you can play alto or tenor, doesn't mean that one can play soprano. Indeed, more appropriately well enough to be pleasing to the ear. A good test of one's embouchure control on soprano is to play D1 then D2 then D3 and listen to the degree of added shrillness. The same applies with E1, E2 and E3. Only after many months of practice can one master all of these notes with the requisite warmth that otherwise would have been mastered with other members of the saxophone family.

The third hurdle is the human ear itself. One can only take so much in that range even when the player is accomplished. When performing, very rarely do I go above A-2. Not because I cannot get up there without sounding like a snake charmer, but because after attending concerts where the soprano was constantly played way up high, I myself was crawling for the door as a listener. A little bit goes a long way, no matter how accomplished one is. As a listener, I can only take about 30 seconds of the palm keys and then it need a break. I am asked constantly to play Bb Trumpet or Clarinet parts in the second and third partials exclusively and wonder whether the high pitch is being overdone. Thank God there is usually a choir there to blend in with.

I remember when I was back in the MidWest in search of the soprano that I currently possess. I remember one member of a community band, not a saxophone player, stating that their sax player had recently picked up soprano and it was the most God awful sound he had ever heard. I will agree Toot's that if one cannot play soprano with the requisite warmth and control the horn requires, it can in fact be the most God awful sound one must suffer with, like a squeaky violin. So, when you hear a soprano that more or less pleases you, please give that player the additional respect that this particular person deserves.

A word about Kenny G. Yes, it threw me off my chair when I found out that he was the saxophone player that has sold the most records. It also bristled me because I really felt that if it wasn't for Grover Washington Jr., this kid would be nowhere. It's no secret that Kenny has done a beautiful job of copying Grover and has developed a sound with the help of a mouthpiece specialist. But, I really do not think that Kenny deserves the rap that he gets here to the degree its presented. Yes, there are many selections that Mr. Gorlick does that are repetitious, monotonous, and pabulum for the masses. But I was impressed with his recent version of "Summertime." Additionally, most of the complaints that are directed towards Kenny G are due to his soprano playing and not his tenor playing. And the bottom line is, if it didn't sell he wouldn't keep doing it.

Is there the a perfect soprano player out there today? Well according to your requirements, probably not. Well, one hasn't emerged to knock Kenny off the charts. Personally, I like Dave Koz, Grover Washington Jr., Branford Marsalis and Paul Winter. For years, I've been trying to put a sound together that would be a combination of all of these cats, for they are all different.

Soprano players benefit from ensemble playing in saxophone quartets and quintets. They also benefit when they are relegated to playing with choirs and other groups where they can glide over what is there. The background in a soprano sound can be just as important as the soprano sound itself in order minimize the high range and to put the tones in perspective. Further, soprano's are more susceptible to room acoustics. A larger horn will fill up a dead room easier than a soprano.

Well Toots, I've got most of it out and feel better. Why pick on just the soprano, what about the soprannino?

Well, back to the shed.

All the best,

Straightsax.

[singlereed]

Although the sop (and more so, the 'nino) has a sound of its own, I love it. I find it very lyrical and also capable of a lot of punch and drive when required. Getting a full round sound of it has been a challenge and a rewarding one at that for me. Ever since I saw and heard a straight soprano years ago I thought 'I want to play that' and I am glad that I now do. It is also my chosen instrument in church music where it serves as an uplifting solo voice. 8)

[toot suite]

ok straightsax, not only is Pandora out of the box, but we have cats out of the bag, chickens flown from the coop, new cans of worms, another ball of wax, and I think somebody shut the barn door after the horse has gone. As a serious amateur saxophone player, 10 year veteran of violin lessons, and owner of a '66 Jaguar XKE, I believe we may be kindred spirits in spite of my difficulties clearing the soprano hurdles.

You inaccurately interpret my words when you suggest that I compare soprano players to snake charmers. First of all I don't consider sopranos inherently bad, but that they are a) seemingly a more distant cousin than the more familiar alto, tenor, and bari in terms of character of the sound in ways that are familiar and generally enjoyed by me (and many others)as a listener; b) it seems to be more of an acquired taste, like scotch, sushi, bondage, or anchioves; c) there are fewer soprano players and hence fewer stylists to sample for taste, than other saxophone registers; and d) snakes subjected to soprano saxophones are far more likely to inject venom into their hosts, than charm.

"My first gut reaction to the original post in this thread is that if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. Get a soprano and show us how it is done. No one is holding you back. " For you to suggest that a solution is needed implies that you agree there's a problem. But if you feel that's twisting your words, (and I don't think it is)I would just say that a person can be perplexed by a situation without being directly or indirectly responsible for it. I don't understand nor have I solved the complexities of the haulocaust, and I don't feel like a contributor to the atrocities. Nor is it reasonable to insist that I get a soprano and show everyone how it's done. As far as I can tell, it's done offensively pretty much whenever I've encountered it. At some point you stop trying to hit yourself with a hammer even though it feels good when you stop.

I completely agree with you when you essentially say that commercial success in the music business generally has no correlation to talent and skill. While this topic could easily digress into a whole new set of discussions, I think it's pretty obvious and accepted that "success" in the music biz is way to much about the video, stage production, choreography, makeup and clothes, titillating nubiles, coke and payola, and way too little about talent, ability or creativity. My brother studied violin at Julliard years ago, and I would occasionally go into the city with him. I remember walking through the area where the practice rooms were and listening in awe to the monumental talent flowing out of everywhere. There wasn't a single student who didn't sound pretty damn incredible....and they and most of their teachers were destined never to be famous or commercially successful, and they generally remain unknown and unexposed to many potentially appreciative audiences.

I'm not sure I concur with your comparing soprano in the sax family with violin in the string family. That is to say, I am sure I don't agree with you. The fact is that violin by far exceeds any of the other strings in popularity, performances, recorded music, and the attention of composers throughout the history of western civilization. It is the antithesis of the soprano saxophone. Having grown up in a household where my brother and I both played violin, I can certainly attest that it can be played badly, and that bad violin playing can be excrutiating. I am not quite sure how my parents survived the years before anything discernable as music started coming out of our fiddles in those days....but struggling beginners ain't what we're talking about here. There is no endeavor, that when entered into before skills are developed, can't be horrible. We're talking about the quality of a thing when it has risen to loftier heights....and whether or not discriminating listeners can recognize meaningful differences in quality. Remember the fact that Kenny G. sells the most records, or Chevrolet sells the most cars, or Budweiser sells the most beer, and White Owl sells the most cigars can generally be regarded as assurance that they are probably in contradistinction to the things we're talking about. The "great unwashed" as H.L. Menken said, establishes the top 40 hits, the success of People Magazine, keeps Coca Cola Classic ahead, American cars on the road, Bushes in the White House, Air Jordans in and P.F. Flyers out, and explains the proliferation of SUVs, double half-caff jamocha caffe latte, air brushed fingernails, Ernest and Julio Gallo vineyards, and breast implants.

"Is there the a perfect soprano player out there today? Well according to your requirements, probably not..." Guess what, there are no perfect musicians. Well, maybe Mozart or Bird...but that's really not the point. And my initial post wasn't about perfect players, but whether my distaste for soprano sax, cultivated over many years of serious listening to jazz, was due to my unawareness of the literature or the better players..or whether it represents a general consensus. Thus far, even the soprano players who have posted, including yourself, seem to share the consensus!

Anyway, I have to brush up for my saxello recital. Keep those cards and letters coming. t. suite

[MitchP]

I actually play the soprano as my main instrument and have spent several years working the finer points of the instrument. It has always been the most natural of the saxophones for me to play, rather than some unwieldy beast. I do not think of it as some distant cousin, my concept is a big full sound, like all of the other saxophones, after all it is a saxophone. I know this is foreign concept to some. I feel that too many saxophonists play the soprano with a delicate classsical touch, or a whiny "smooth jazz" approach because frankly I think they are afraid to play the instrument like a saxophone. Get my message yet? Play it like the other saxophones, full!
I sincerely doubt that Charlie Parker would have sounded like Bechet considering Bird used almost no vibrato and his alto tone was biting and strident compared to the norm of the day. (Why speculate anyway?)

[Straightsax]

What a reply. Toot's I roared. Now this saxello lesson you are talking about. Is this you on this sound sample.


http://www.brass-business.net/db/brass/uid=1023018897924&var=lng=en&var=pr=Saxophone%20So prano%20Bb%20Artist%20SAXELLO%20Style%20-%20fire%20rot%20MBG%20HAMPTON%20ARTIST%20&var=cat= 2&template=produit.html

What do you think of the sound sample. Does it sound like a saxophone.

Hey, SingleReed welcome to the club.

Mitch, I agree.

Hope this URL works.

Back to the shed.

Straightsax.

[MojoBari]

Most would consider a saxello a soprano sax.

Pick up a recording from the Soprano Summit (Bob Wilber and Kenny Davern). I like their "Reunion" double CD. Also has some C Tenor on it.

They play with a full dark sound.

[OLDAIR]

You are looking for a scientific argument on a matter of taste and preference? Might as well argue about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

I love the sound of a soprano saxophone - probably precisely because it sounds like an oboe on steroids! I also love the sound of a well tuned and played C-Melody - another unpopular sax that has its own voice. As a matter of fact the only saxophone I occasionally find annoying is the alto - it isn't my favorite to play either.

It seems awfully popular to bash Kenny G. but I think the dude can play. He has a lot of fans who think so too. We should all be so lucky as to be able to make a good living playing the sax like he does. I guess I've mellowed, in terms of respect, over the years. My mom used to watch Lawrence Welk every Saturday night and I would run screaming to my room. When I see those old re-runs I think of her now, but also reallize that those guys in the orchestra actually had some chops and were making a living playing music. Not my cuppa tea still but I'm more tolerant.

I have a friend who claims he only listens to "Good Music". When asked what kind of music that is he says, "Music I Like". Maybe you shouldn't listen to the soprano sax anymore.

[Straightsax]

Great question Mo. The modern day Saxello has the exact range of the Soprano. Bb to F# in the key of Bb. However, given the different design it is not a curved soprano. But on the link above the necks look identical upon first glance. If there is a difference, it beats me. The tone is darker and not as bright. You are absolutely right about that. Reminds me of Grover on Sop.

It would be interesting to go back to that web site and click the main page and see what their regular soprano's sound like on the sound sample file. This company sells a ton of instruments. Whoever was playing on that sound sample had it down pretty good.

Could be that Toot's is onto something here. The difference in design may be responsible for the difference in timbre. This may be the new rage that the public hasn't discovered.

If they can sell more by calling it a soprano, they'll call it a soprano. After all, what's a Market Steak.

Now, I'm thinking about how those old Conn's sounded by in 1923. Rumor has it that Kenny G is out buying one right now! Oh, God another million sold. With his PR and name recognition just think what he could do.

Old Air, I'm not bashing Kenny G. I do not think that every selection a musician plays is awesome. Kenny has some good selections and the rest is a far shot. I'm just bringing down to the level of a human being. Lawrence Welk had some awesome players. Each one of them could have gone solo if life was fair.

O.K. Toot's, what's the scoop.

Straightsax.

[Dave Dolson]

Having been the owner of an original Saxello (King) and a modern Rampone "saxello" (really just a tipped bell-curved neck Bb soprano), I can attest to them being world's apart in tone, intonation, concept, and playability.

The Saxello was metallic in sound and poor in intonation. The Rampone was a soprano and that's all; albeit well made, great scale, nice sound much like any of the other pro-line sops, and very playable. I no longer have either one. DAVE

[toot suite]

Oldair, the discussion over intrinsic value vs. taste has been bandied about and (usually speciously) argued forever. I pontificated on that subject a few months ago, to a disinterested response so palpable I could almost hear the yawns through e-space, so I won't chew my cabbage twice... other than to say that matters of taste and quality are not, and should not be mutually exclusive; and that that discussion is really not the thrust of this particular thread.

I am looking forward to listening to the various artists that have been suggested earlier to see whether exposure to more or better musicians might open new doors for me as a listener. Who knows, I may one day actually come to possess one of those little monsters myself. Ach, who am I kidding? I'll probably get a 10th alto first.

As far as Kenny G. is concerned, I'm sure he feels justified paying more attention to his enviable banking deposits than to our little jibes. If I could play a theme and variations and parlay it into a bunch of albums that sell, I'd open a Swiss account tomorrow and take my act on the road. He's got fair chops, I think, and he's been beautifully marketed. So what if you can't tell his songs from one another? Live and let live, I say....but I choose not to include his albums in my music library.

Perhaps part of my admittedly biased position grows out of a personal reaction to departures from the familiar, i.e. How could Dex put down that tenor that he plays so exquisitely, and that I've loved for years, and have me listen to him on that unfamiliar little horn? And of course you could substitute Coltrane's name or any number of others. We are critters of habit, after all.

Keep your toots suite boys and girls.

[summerdays]

I'll add my 2 cents to the discussion by saying that the opinions about
the soprano sax sound is purely subjective. That is, there are going to
be those who think the soprano sound is just too tinny, or flat, or too . . .
Well that's your opinion and you're welcome to it.
I had been playing alto sax, and I have no plans on abandoning it, just
because I heard Paul Winter play a soprano with a sound I really liked.
Iam from the Lester Young\Paul Desmond school of tone when I play,
or hear sax. Mellow, not 'in your face' agressive sound like the late
Cannonball Adderly, or David Sanborn(I don't like Kenny G's tone, even
though I give him credit for his success.) I'm practicing on my soprano
sax to get a mellow, dark tone too, and I expect to have to work hard to
get the tone that I want.
So you see . . .? It's all a matter of taste, and we all have our own.
Variety is what makes the world interesting, though.

Summerdays

[OLDAIR]

Lets see...

Kenny G. is TOO predictable.
Dexter is NOT predictable enough.

Gawd, no wonder its so hard to make a buck playing music!

[Straightsax]

Hey, Summerdays.

Paul Winter uses a Selmer D and Vandoren #4 reed on a Selmer. You can probably get by with a 3 1/2. You do have to really soak them to get that tone and play them for a week to gradually break them in. I use a Meyer 7M which is about the same dimensions and when playing right next to his recorded sound vinyl or CD, it sounds like one horn in playing. It will take sole time, but it's worth the journey.

When you really get serious about Winter's sound and buy a Selmer. Try at least 5 horns before you buy. They all sound different. It was worth the trip from California to Indiana via Michigan many sun's and moons ago.

Straightsax.

[rhino004]

Dave Dolson..If you ever want to buy another Rampone&Cazzani Saxello...let me know and I can hook you up with a new one as I am a dealer. They do sound gooood!

[Dave Dolson]

rhino004: Thanks for the offer. I recall your previous posts about being a Rampone dealer. I still have a Rampone 'nino. The tipped-bell soprano did sound and play nicely. It was just so difficult to put it down safely while playing alto or clarinet. I'm about sopranoed out these days with three vintage and three new Yanas. DAVE

[barelytone]

For the best the soprano has sounded, listen to Grover Washington Jr. play on CD 'All My Tomorrows' - very appealing sound, and a guy who is consistent and identifiable on all 3 main saxophones.
I forget the name of my favorite Kenny G. CD, but I was just playing it the other day while vacuuming . .

[Razzy]

Just to toss in another cent or two, you may want to check out Jean-Yves Fourmeau, classical soprano player: very nice, warm sound. Thus far the only pleasing jazz soprano sound I can remember is that of my teacher. Coltrane was an amazing tenor player, probably the best; but this talent did not carry over to the soprano. He picked it up and expected to make magic but he made anything but. I can't stand to listen to it.

The general problem is that players who have played alto, tenor, bari, or some combination of those, all their lives, tend to be attracted to soprano by some great player of it they've listened to, or often just by a genuine feeling of wanting to try something new, and when they pick it up, realize that it will take years of work to get a nice sound on this instrument, only to start playing it on gigs a week after they've acquired it (or some relatively small interval on the grand scale of things).

I picked up the soprano 5 months ago. I wouldn't even consider playing it publicly yet. I'd wait at least until next December or so plus a LOT of shedding before I go public with this little beast. Simply put, my skill on this instrument doesn't even compare to my relative skill on alto, tenor, and baritone sax, which are all about equal at this point.

[barelytone]

Nick Brignola sounds good on soprano on his latest. I think my favorite soprano 'specialist' is Jane Bunnett. All of those smooth jazz soprano players at least prove that the sound IS popular . . .

[sax maniac]

sounds like sole of you people need some thereapy, the sax is supposed to be fun to play. there should be no arguing or contraversy, everyone is entitled to their opinion but sometimes you should keep it to yourself.

[Joseph Boucher]

Adolph should have quit after the alto. Joe.

[barelytone]

Actually, anyone wanting to play beyond the tenor should have to go through some kind of licensing process . . . 8)

[electricninja]

barelytone, bad idea. Everyone knows that registration eventually leads to confiscation. :wink:

[kingperkoff]

Listen to King Curtis' Soul Serenade on Saxello- very warm tone.

[goodsax]

If that was a link to King Curtis' song, it didn't work for me. Do you have another?
Thanks,

[kingperkoff]

soory goodsax, that wasn't a link, but you can find that version on "Instant Soul: The Legendary King Curtis" CD from Razor Tie records

[MJ]

I'm a reckless saxophone beginner who got to try a Selmer Series III today during my alto saxophone lesson. Would you believe I got that sucker to sound like a dying Harley on the low notes? A rhythmic vibrating tone that even I have never heard before came out of the business end of that soprano sax. The funniest thing about the whole soprano experience is that I think I will have to try a curved version in the future. After all, my spouse loves Kenny G. for some reason I can only fathom after two beers.

[barelytone]

"They can have my Soprano when they pry it from my..."

[Biff]

I recently got a Century straight soprano, and it seems to play fine for me. i have no problems other than the left hand palm keys (so.. *gasps for breath* high...), and you'll take my soprano and my Bari away from me when you can catch me, kill me, and pry them from my cold, rotting hands.

I'm a Bari player by nature, but i don't seem to have a problem with the half size mouthpiece or anything at all.


But maybe i'm just a freak.


Kenny G will burn in hell along with kenny A, Kenny B, Kenny C.....


Biff

[Paul Coats]

Cannonball Adderley, Accent on Africa.

Nothing else need be said.

[JfW]

In keeping with the theme of this thread,

MJ has a topic: http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=55424#55424 about Anders Paulsson. Having only heard the clips on his site, I must say that I'm impressed with his tone. It sounds more delicate and light while being less shrill than any soprano I've heard before. I must hear more!

The only other sop I really listen to is Pittel, and personally I think the sound he produces is somewhat brash, a bit shrill, and at times, overpowering. And no, I cant' do any better I'm sure...

[Razzy]

Hey, another update folks. Recently I've found the soprano to sound much more pleasing in general. I thought at first that my tolerance for high pitches had increased, but that's not really it.

For one thing, my range is effectively to high G on the instrument now, on most days. Sometimes my chops are so blown from practicing that I can not get to the F#. Some time during the summer, I played the soprano with my jazz guitarist friend. Anything above a B3 or so and he recoiled in fear. "So high, ahh!"

The other day in the orchestra, I played soprano for this same friend. I played a high G and held it for a few seconds. He said, "nah you can play higher than that, I remember you playing a lot higher than that during the summer." I said, "are you sure you don't just remember me sounding a lot more SHRILL?" And this was definitely the case. Now I don't sound nearly as shrill and have a pretty pleasing tone across most of the range of the instrument. It comes with a great deal of practice and experience with the instrument. Just keep pushing and it will sound better.

Like all my playing experiences, I find that I now appreciate listening to good recordings of the soprano more, because I myself play it and get some comparatively good results!

[Perfect Pitch]

There is little doubt stricter embouchure control of "the little darling" often leads to intonation problems, however a good player can make these babies sing and as a soaring counterpoint they can add a new dimension to ensemble playing. I enjoy mine 8)
Toot sweet (be it nino or contrabass) and the world will bow at your feet Ask Kenny G - 17 million records later...

[Jolle]

Somebody who does not believe in a decent soprano tone, should also check out Philippe Laloy (plays with Tricycle, Belgian jazz-combo with world-influences www.tricycle.be)

This said, it is possible to use a soprano in a lot of places. I, for example, use it in combination with accordeon for an intro of a french "chanson". It's allowed to sound a bit as a loud clarinet/dolly duck, since that sound just fits with the accordeon. Another occasion is the theme of the drunken acrobat in our circus performance. No way any other sax can play that "drunk" by bending notes etc. It's just perfect. I use it as well for the theme of the big fight (with tons of fire). Also here you can use that shrill, high sound very well, as well as the low notes. It sounds very spooky, and that's exactly as it should be.

No, I won't ever try to play some subtle subtone jazzpart on soprano sax. Not possible. I'm also not a fan of what is done in the "arty farty" jazz-scene with sopranos, but not really of what is done with tenors there either :D

greetzz

[prodigal]

Ugh!!

I am convinced that people who don't like the way a soprano sounds - just haven't checked out enough soprano sounds! The instrument can sound very round and full, and there are MANY, MANY players who play it very well these days.

Not everyone has a puny, annoying, "mosquito in my ear" sound - although I know some people who do.

I was playing a party about a year ago, and there was a classical soprano player on the break music that our sound person was playing. A similar discussion got started, with him complaing about soprano sounds. After I realized that he didn't even know that the beautiful sounding instrument playing on his own CD was a soprano player, I pointed it out as tactfully as possible. An awkward silence ensued. . . . .

[Tom Goodrick]

It is amazing to me that this three-year-old thread was revived for some reason. Its originator has long ago passed on to make complaints at some other forum. Yet I saw that our forum automata referred to this thread as a topic for help to a beginner choosing a sop. That makes little sense.

Anyone who thinks a sop sounds bad either has no sense for musical sounds and should go into another avocation, or he/she has been stuck in a place and forced to listen to some far-out sop jazz. It is true that some jazz musicians enjoy making the sop sound like the disembodied complaints of a dying animal. They should be fined by the Society for the Preservation of Good Music.

Most players, like myself, have chosen to play soprano because it sounds so great on so many styles of music (except for the dying animals). I was even surprised to find how easy it was to make the sop sound pretty. It made me appreciate "pretty music" again. I thought I was just interested in "straight up jazz".

Any of a number of decent beginner's horns are available at low prices. The mouthpiece is probably the most important item in giving a beginner a good sound. A closed mouthpiece like the $25 Yamaha 4C will introduce you to the pretty sound of the sop. A better-quality piece like the $75 Selmer S-80 in a size from C* to F will enhance the sound and give some variation as you develop "sop chops."

Now maybe we can let this thread fade into history to be replaced by the many more positive and informative threads on sopranos.

[betelsax]

Tom: Amen. Well said. Except for the end. I like this thread, it started out sour and got sweeter and sweeter. Sort of like practicing and playing.

And Jolle: What a terrific find! I want to buy the Tricycle album but you have to do a euros transfer to a specific bank. What? If you have an easier way, let me know. (Maybe you'll visit a music store in the near future?)

[E_di_e]

Toot sweet:

I really can't understand you. What is what you want with this thead? That everyone gives you the reason only? There was a very good proposal: I you have a good idea of the good soprano sounding, just take one and show us how it should be!

Almost all the people that plays soprano, do it because they like its sound, otherwise they won't do that. If you dislike the sound just show the good way to play it or just don't hear it. :twisted:

In example, I don't like the electical guitar, but I'm not asking guitar player not to play it.

One of the most interesting point on sax is that you can develop your own sound. It is the combination of reed, mouthpiece and the player that gives the sound (you should now that if you are a sax player). So, you can not "blame" the sax type (in this case the soprano) if you don't like the sound. Maybe that theres is that most of all the people like the kind of sound you dislikes: the soprano-oboe sound.

Have you tried to hear soprillo? :D

I think that this is a forum where you can state your ideas, So you can honnestly say that you dislike the soprano sound, but don't be mad is you receive a different oppion. So, you are sharing your points or just want that we all agree with you? :twisted:

Anyone can say what he want, but is better to be constructive.

[Gandalfe]

Toot sweet: I really can't understand you. What is what you want with this thead?Toot Sweet hasn't posted on this board for two years. :shock:

[E_di_e]

:cheers:

[prodigal]

Chilean penguin. I like that.

[Saxnflut]

I loved Coltrane on soprano, and while I prefer hearing Dexter on tenor, I loved his willingness & desire to "speak" via a different "color" on his palette. That neither had the "prettiest" sound, they both expressed themselves (& so much more), and the vehicle for it, & how "sweet" or "full", "warm" or "appealing" it sounded, was not their top priority.....

The first soprano to turn me on, both to the instrument, and to jazz, was Pharoah Sander's on Alice Coltrane's "Journey in Satchidananda", (& his sax & alto flutework w/Joe Henderson on "Ptah the ElDahoud"), it was both simple in a folkish way, & "snake charmerish" in it's best sense (exotic, Eastern, etc), while having that same "primordial" deep, deep, sound/feel/vibe of something connecting earth & heaven, that Trane also had...

His soprano playing on the Thembi album, both on the title track, and on "Astral Traveling", were classic examples of simplicity & simultaneous great depth of feeling & emotion, and forever imprinted my approach to the instrument. The very first one I ever bought, right about that same time, an old (1920ish) Buescher, for $150, which felt so magical & exotic, is the one I still play to this day. Other players have noted it's "sweetness" & even on occasion heard that Trane/Pharoah sound in my playing....

I think the unpleasant sounding sopranos, at least that I've heard, are mainly do to A) cats using metal mouthpieces/harder reeds, often without even trying to get a warm tone, &/or B) micing it too dryly, or with too much high end, thus making it sound thin, too nasal, and irritatingly edgy.

I once played the National Anthem before a Falcolns/49ers game, here in Atlanta, on soprano. I "thought" it would be great, I'd hear all this natural reverb, being in a huge dome, and it would be a gas doing it.
Well, unfortunately they had a big monitor speaker about 5-feet in front of me, which cancelled any chance I had at hearing the dome's acoustic sound, and forced me to hear only a bone-dry, completely unaffected sound. It was horrible, as here I was, trying to fill up that huge place, with what to my ears, was a puny, tiny, dry, thin, cold, tone!

I know it affected how I played, & was no fun for me to listen to, although for those in attendance, they heard it as much fatter, warmer, and "wetter"......thank God.

[David Beane]

Toot sweet:
I really can't understand you. What is what you want with this thead?

As far as I can tell, Mr or Ms Sweet:

a) doesn't like world music, and
b) got a new thesaurus for X-mas 2002
:D

I can certainly understand why fans of certain kinds of jazz and/or blues don't care for soprano, but some of us want to sound like a snake charmer sometimes. ;)

[reclininglion]

The fact is - it is very is to sound bad on smaller saxophones. There are many people who do not sound thin or nasal on soprano.

Check out Dave Pietro, Jon Gordon, Steve Wilson, Branford - an there are more. These are not thin sounds - these are also excellent saxophonists.

One of the reasons I've found people don't like soprano is because they are listening to people playing it poorly rather than playing it well.

It is a beautiful instrument with a beautiful voice when played well.

[Fungus Mungus]

Toot Suite,
I used to feel the same way, but listening to Coltrane, Lacy, Pepper, Marsalis, et al, I've since developed an appreciation for the soprano. Coltrane was definitely the most difficult to get a handle on.

Try listening to Jan Garbarek...his sound on the soprano is the closest thing to an alto or tenor I've ever heard. For the longest time, he was the only soprano player I could stand to listen to. Very warm and fat...like an extension of his tenor. He plays a curved Buescher TT, IIRC.

fm

fm

[E_di_e]

Hi Fungus Mungus.

I understand the by now Garbareck plays on a Borgani?

[Saxnflut]

Toot Suite,
I used to feel the same way, but listening to Coltrane, Lacy, Pepper, Marsalis, et al, I've since developed an appreciation for the soprano. Coltrane was definitely the most difficult to get a handle on.

Try listening to Jan Garbarek...his sound on the soprano is the closest thing to an alto or tenor I've ever heard. For the longest time, he was the only soprano player I could stand to listen to. Very warm and fat...like an extension of his tenor. He plays a curved Buescher TT, IIRC.

fm

fm
Hey Fungus,

I can see where Trane's sound took some getting used to, but I always let him use his tenor for the "warm & fat" sound, while his soprano was, for me, more an expression of his Asian/Indian/Arabic spiritual pursuits & connection. That he and Pharoah shared a kind of "snake charmer" sound, was to me, the thing that turned me on to the instrument, thirty some years ago. And although my sound is warm, the instrument still has that "cosmic", other-worldly exotic quality, that the tenor & alto just don't have.

Now, Jan Garbarek is a great player to bring into this, as he most certainly does have quite a unique sound, just as on his tenor. It seems for decades now, there are saxophone players, and there is Garbarek.
You don't hear much of him, read anything about him, but he continues to do his own particular brand of music. I love his raw, edgy, beautifully soulful, out there &/or in-there playing, and the ECM pristine recording environment seemed always a perfect fit. My favorite works of his are his folkish recordings with Egberto Dismonti, among others....

[Fungus Mungus]

E_di_e,
Garbarek may or may not play a Borgani now, but I've seen pics of him with a TT curvie. I believe his stuff on ECM in the 80s was done on a TT, but I can't swear by it. I've also seen a pic of him with a Buescher C Melody. No matter what he plays, he probably sounds like Garbarek.

Saxnflut,
I agree about Coltrane's sound...he was going for an east-asian modal thing on My Favorite Things, which at first I wasn't into (I was 19 at the time I first encountered it), but now I love. He does a ballad called Everytime We Say Goodbye and, while he pours a lot of his soul into it, I think would have been better on his tenor...even in the same register, ALA Nancy (with the Laughing Face). I still prefer Coltrane on tenor, but I've grown to appreciate what he was doing on soprano, especially with his modal stuff.

[Rocky Gordon]

There are many sounds today for the soprano, what with the straight, curved, and sem-curved saxello style, which I prefer for a dark, full-bodied warm sound. It also cuts through a band better, in my estimation and experience.

[MitchP]

Check out my concept if interested, again it's my main axe, I've spent some time on this instrument:

http://www.myspace.com/mitchpaliga

[David Beane]

Check out my concept if interested, again it's my main axe, I've spent some time on this instrument:

http://www.myspace.com/mitchpaliga

I definitely liked what I heard there! I'd call you for lessons if I lived anywhere near beer-wine Illinois :D

Regards,

David

[Saxnflut]

Check out my concept if interested, again it's my main axe, I've spent some time on this instrument:

http://www.myspace.com/mitchpaliga

Hey Mitch, I agree, you sound great.....

I've always loved Liebman's (& Trane & Shorter) soprano playing, and have been able to see him live a few times...

I'm originally from Chicago, but haven't really been there playing for over 30yrs. But back in the day, I remember once jamming with Fred Anderson's group at an after-hours spot in Old Town, and seeing Muhal-Richard Abrams & the AACM Orchestra, at 87th & Cottage on a Sunday afternoon......

I miss all the great players up there.....keep up the great playing!

[MitchP]

Thanks for the kind words Dave & Saxnflut.
I play at Fred's club, The Velvet Lounge, on occasion. Fred is a great person as well as a pioneer in the Chicago avante-garde scene.

[bignote]

John Coltrane...MY Favorite Things...this is one of the very greatest pieces of modern soprano sax playing you may ever hear in our short lives...I've been trying to understand this monumental masterpiece for more than 30 years and still shutter upon each playing...every year or so...a timeless piece of the master of modern jazz...try and and keep your minds and ears open.
P.S. I know we all have different tastes in music... Let's all find our own voice & Good Luck to All.

[Sax1224]

Well toots, sounds to me like you got a sop sax, tried to play and got scared away. i love the sound of a soprano sax and can find something good about all players mentioned here. next time you here it played well, stop and take notice of how it makes you feel. I cherish an instrument capable of provoking such strong feelings,good or bad. Check out Zoot Sims-Soprano Sax. awesome!! P.S. Try less wordy posts and up your time with the sop. you might develop a fondness for it!!!!!!

[bruce bailey]

Let's see, this thread started nearly 6 years ago....

[Jazz House]

That original opinion was outrageous. The soprano is the best saxophone and in the hands of somebody who can control it (NOT KENNETH GORELICK) it is just as nice and pleasing as any other instrument.

[Razzy]

Today feels like a trip down memory lane. Not only do I return to SotW to check out what's been going on, but I have read at least four threads from 2003 with recent replies made. This thread should have been left dead...

Ah, youth. These days I really do appreciate Coltrane's soprano playing, and a host of other players. To paraphrase a quote, I was an *** and a bachelor and my eye has been opened by experience. By experience! ;)

[Rocky Gordon]

I think the soprano saxophone is protected by the Constitution that we may play it. I think that sums up this thread. Now we can end it?

[BeyondSax]

Rocky, what about countries without a Constituion?

[Rocky Gordon]

Rocky, what about countries without a Constituion?

Beyond, I think there should be legislation in those countries addressing the relevance of soprano sax performance and how the positive effect of its sound affect the psychological behavior of those citizens. Therefore, those societies who come into contact with the musicians who perform on that instrument can be observed as having a more content behavior, thus reducing the statistical numbers related to crime and drugs in those countries.
Does that answer your question?

[BeyondSax]

Well, I can check with my neighbors on how it affects them as they receive about 3 hours a day of my sop practice. Come to think of it, they have started to look a little weird but they are still smiling.....

[DBDONNIE]

THE CONSTITUTION (US) acknowledges essenial rights and should not be ignored by Citizens or their 'representatives'...
...I once got a soprano sax with the hope of making it sound like a fiddle - it still doesn't, coming closer to the 'urban and screechy' criteria...

Oh, well...

Best Wishes,
'DBD'

[GeneraloftheSaxArmy]

Personally, I find the soprano either boring or shrill (generally speaking); mostly lacking character. I find that it's Kenny G-like...just awful. Or it's too warm, it's not exciting.

My personal fav for sop is Bechet. He's got some life in his playing, some jump in his tone. Wide vibrato aside, I find his sound the most enjoyable. Coltrane is second for me, but I'm not a huge Coltrane fan. Branford sounds tame on soprano to me while James Carter sound like a shawm. Shorter is too dry for me, etc etc.

Now, after all that whining, I love playing sop. But I play a curved sop (which I think sounds more like a saxophone since the others are curved). I have a hard time listening to sopranos because I think that the straightness of the horn, for me, seems to take the life out of the sound. I feel the same way with straight altos and tenors.

Just my 2 cents.

[Souportwenty]

What if the first saxophone Adolf built was a soprano and he disliked the nasal tone or the shrill upper register so much he scrapped the whole saxophone idea?

[DesertCreature]

For years, I disliked the soprano tone intensely. Found it irritating like harmonica. I loved what Coltrane did on sop, but never liked his tone. Soprano in general was too tinny or shrill for my taste. Also the sop was employed in pop music in ways that just bugged the crap outta me, like for example Wings' Listen to What the Man Said. [TURN THAT **** OFF!!!!]

Over the years tho I heard a change in sop usage and tone and became intrigued. Paul Winter and Branford Marsalis had wonderful tone. Perhaps it was also a change in my taste and maybe even quality of recording as well. Now I'm a sop player and love the instrument, but still can't stand shrillness, especially if it comes from *my* horn.

[RueRiposte]

I find this so funny. I always liked the sound of the sax (was familiar with alto and tenor)...but I fell in love with the sound (and look) of the soprano sax - from the first moment I heard/saw one!

And that's why I decided to pursue it further. Liked it so much I wanted to see if I could play it myself. Bought one with the goal of joining the adult beginner band this fall.

[retread]

I broke down and bought a soprano several years ago. It soon became apparent that it would require daily practice to even approach an acceptable sound on it. It was taking practice time from my clarinet, which is inherently a pleasant-sounding instrument. I sold the soprano and kept alto, tenor, bari and clarinet. I'm not saying there are not soprano players who sound good, but they are rare.

[RueRiposte]

...it's all so personal! LOL...I've never been fan of the clarinet. Love the oboe though...

[modman]

I once had a girl come up to me after a show, and say" why don't you just play a clarinet?" B

[RueRiposte]

...maybe that was her idea of an opening line?

Sooooo...maybe I'm a little out of the loop. While I had heard of Kenny G, I've never heard a recording, so I never knew he played the soprano sax until yesterday!

Why exactly is everyone so derisive? Is it because he plays Pop? Is there something wrong with that?

[BeyondSax]

...maybe that was her idea of an opening line?

Sooooo...maybe I'm a little out of the loop. While I had heard of Kenny G, I've never heard a recording, so I never knew he played the soprano sax until yesterday!

Why exactly is everyone so derisive? Is it because he plays Pop? Is there something wrong with that?

Be prepared to catch a load of grief. For some reason, Kenny G is viewed by many on this forum as less desirable than STDs. Personally, I would like to sound anywhere near as good.

However, my real ambition is to practice and study my way into having half the skill and a faint resemblance to the sound of Branford Marsalis. Have a listen to the entire "Rip Tip Johnson" song on his Heard you twice the first time CD

[RueRiposte]

Nice! Thanks for the link!

My ambition is only to become a solid, reliable player in the band...no thoughts of soloing...