Keilwerth Shadow, Brand New

[samantha]

Wow. I tried out a Shadow today. Brand new, we had to take the corks out and everything.

Needless to say, it played beautifully. My only concern was that the lower notes seemed airy. after inspection I noticed leaks on all the lower keys. The manager claimed that it was just cause the springs hadn't been broken in.

I am planning on buying it. So before I go talk to him tomorrow about financing (I'm too broke to buy it outright) I wanted to know if any of you have experienced leaks on new horns and whether it goes away after playing a little.

Thanks

[Randall]

Sam, they are great horns...but the part about the springs not being broken in is horse#%@*. Springs on a new horn are stiffer because they have not been used. That means they would seal MORE tightly, rather than less tightly.

The horn is leaking because it is out of adjustment. Make sure it is regulated before you buy it. If you know a veteran player, take them with you when you buy or try out horns. Sounds like the store manager is full of it to me.

Good luck!

[danarsenault]

If I read this correctly, it looks like several leaks in the lower stack? Don't walk away. Run. There is a reason why so few stores let you see an instrument in cork, they all need work. The occasional leak is expected, but more than one in a row may be systemic, like it took a good whack in shipment.

[HeavyWeather77]

Randall's right. Ask around (or search with the software) to find a reputable saxophone tech in your area; this will be worth more in the long run than the price of a new Shadow. Always double-check the advice of an instrument dealer; even if they're well-intentioned, they are often notoriously under-knowledgeable and over-eager to make up advice to get you out of the store with an instrument sooner.

[samantha]

for what it's worth. I've been playing for 11 years. so I know a little bit. it's only the low B/ Bb... the keys on the bell. if you press the buttons down with a little more pressure they go down fine. to me... it seems about right. I would expect the springs to be a little strong and resist a little.

[Randall]

Sam what you describe is that the keys in question need adjustment. It is a minor issue and can be done quickly and easily. It is not, however, a spring issue.
A key not closing well due to a spring is usually an old, worn spring, not a problem on a new horn with new springs. The new springs are very stiff and should actually be quite strong.

The low B, Bb often are out of adjustment on new horns due to shipping bumps and bangs.

[mountainman]

Wow. I tried out a Shadow today. Brand new, we had to take the corks out and everything.

Needless to say, it played beautifully. My only concern was that the lower notes seemed airy. after inspection I noticed leaks on all the lower keys. The manager claimed that it was just cause the springs hadn't been broken in.

I am planning on buying it. So before I go talk to him tomorrow about financing (I'm too broke to buy it outright) I wanted to know if any of you have experienced leaks on new horns and whether it goes away after playing a little.

Thanks

Just took my Shadow in for a 2 year check while I was having other work done. It's a great horn. Purchased it without playing it from Saxforte it was great right out of the box. The tech found no leaks , but adjusted the lower stack slightly to require less pressure.

Be sure to check Saxforte ( highly reccommended) and WWBW pricing before you buy. It's worth a certain price premium to buy locally and only you can decide how much it's worth to be able to take it back where you bought it.

I would however NOT buy from someone who blames the springs for leaks on a new horn unless they have a good tech department and will set the horn up right before you buy. I've been playing saxes for over 50 years and have never known them to fix themselves.

[singlereed]

My experience with several new Keilwerths in a few different stores was that they needed a lot of work to get them playing properly, and a bit of TLC in the first year or two of use. Whether it has taken a knock, or whether it was never set up properly from the factory, insist they set it up properly before you buy it. I doubt it's the springs anyway, they won't change unless a technician adjusts them, more likely the pads aren't seating properly. I would consider owning a Keilwerth because I have access to a good technician nearby who is very reasonably priced. If I couldn't easily get to a technician, I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole.

[Ruediger Kramer]

once i was fallen in love with a Keilwerth too - after i had read this http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Tenor/Keilwerth_sx90r_tenor.htm
my love was gone...

[Swingtone]

Wow. I tried out a Shadow today. Brand new, we had to take the corks out and everything.

Needless to say, it played beautifully. My only concern was that the lower notes seemed airy. after inspection I noticed leaks on all the lower keys. The manager claimed that it was just cause the springs hadn't been broken in.

I am planning on buying it. So before I go talk to him tomorrow about financing (I'm too broke to buy it outright) I wanted to know if any of you have experienced leaks on new horns and whether it goes away after playing a little.

Thanks

Sam-Just get your parents to buy it (or most of it anyway)! From another post regarding your nasty band director, I assumed you were still in school. Sounds like it would make a great Christmas present. :)

[mosplace]

The Shadwo is a great horn. I had one of the first ever made and delivered. I had mine adjusted too. But I think after a while every horn has to be adjusted. The pads will change a little bit under playing. So after a while you gonna have it checked anyway.

Another thing that concerns me more, is that you want to finance the horn. I don'T like that thought! In my opinion it is ok to finance a house or maybe a car. But don'T start financing things like that. It could be the beginning of something real bad. Over here lots of young people in the beginning 20ths are totatly broke, since they have so many credits to pay back.

I rather safe the money until I can afford it. But that is my personal opinion. Maybe I'm old fashioned in this matter.

[Randall]

Sam, check your PMs....
I agree with Mo, by the way....

[samantha]

Understandable Mo,

financing isn't something I'd like to be looking at, but with several altos out of commission, and college auditions, I really needed a new one, and if I'm gonna get one, I want it to be well worth the money and what I really want.

I'm putting $1500 down on it anyways. =)

In any case, it costs more than my car did. but I earn things myself. My mom is an accountant, thus, I try to be a little more money wise than most. The economics course I took last semester also helps.

Sam

[Giganova]

once i was fallen in love with a Keilwerth too - after i had read this http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Tenor/Keilwerth_sx90r_tenor.htm
my love was gone...
This is exactly why I oppose Howard's vendetta against Keilwerth. It scares the bejesus out of numerous players who were toying with the idea of getting a JK and who might have been perfectly happy with one of their horns.

Have you played a JK? I have yet to meet a JK player who had problems with warped tone holes.

[Randall]

Ditto Giga.

I have had no less than 20 JKs go through my hands over the years and I never had a problem with the tone holes.

Superb horns.

[Carl H.]

with several altos out of commission, and college auditions, I really needed a new one, and if I'm gonna get one, I want it to be well worth the money and what I really want.

You might want to consult your future teacher and see what they recommend before you go into debt. The wrong horn, no matter how good it is, can mean trouble in college.

[Joe Jazz]

Shadows are very good saxes, but not a very good value, IMHO. If you are rich and famous by all means get one. If not you'll do fine with any number of saxes costing at least $1,000 less. BTW, I feel extremely sorry for people that believe everything they read.....and base buying decisions on one person's opinion rather than weighing all that has been said......

[mostly alto guy]

(an obvious reference to the infamous SX-90 review) I feel extremely sorry for people that believe everything they read.....and base buying decisions on one person's opinion rather than weighing all that has been said......

Yes, yes, yes, with the two most important things that have been said about buying any horn still being:
1) have your trusted tech go over the horn
2) play the horn as you would expect to play it in your normal sax life

I've bought without have played several fantastically good used horns from people I trust, and several from ebay strangers (I've been lucky there). But every horn save one I've bought new needed some tweaks to play well. Oddly enough, that was an SX-90R alto. I'm convinced it had been tweaked already for a prospetive buyer who for some reason chose not to complete the deal (which may be the only reason this dealer ever had the horn to begin with).

If this Shadow plays great and floats your boat except for the bell keys issue, get it properly fixed, have your tech verify the fix is for good and not just a stopgap, play the thing some more, and see if it still floats your boat. While it's being seen to, play some more horns. You may be surprised, for example, at how close another SX-90R can get to that Shadow's sound and feel. No two are exactly the same.

[Stephen Howard]

This is exactly why I oppose Howard's vendetta against Keilwerth. It scares the bejesus out of numerous players who were toying with the idea of getting a JK and who might have been perfectly happy with one of their horns.

Have you played a JK? I have yet to meet a JK player who had problems with warped tone holes.

I have no vendetta against Keilwerth - but I do have one against shoddy manufacturing..whatever the name stamped on the bell.
That you haven't met anyone who's had problems simply means you haven't met as many SX90R players as I have. You'll note too that I make the distinction between the Keilwerth brand in general and the 90R series...which is more than you did.
If the SX90R horns are better now than they used to be, it might be because someone had to bottle to say "Hey, this isn't good enough", rather than resort to fawning admiration.

As regards the original poster - be extremely wary of horns straight out of the box. Keys are corked down to prevent the pads from relaxing - and this is largely necessary because of the use of compression-setting of the pads...whereby pressure is used to ensure a seal rather than gentle manipulation of the pad. It's a good way to cover up any discrepancies with the pad seat, but often leads to leaks forming later as the pads relax.
For the price you're paying you should insist on a setup before you hand over the money.

Regards,

[Ruediger Kramer]

BTW, I feel extremely sorry for people that believe everything they read.....and base buying decisions on one person's opinion rather than weighing all that has been said......

the answer is given by Grumps:

If you're going to contradict Mr. Howard's review, I believe the only valid way to do so would be to prove the rolled toneholes on these horns are in fact not warped. Otherwise, he's just pointing out a manufacturing defect that he feels is unacceptable. Whether or not your horn sounds great is irrelevant. If the problem exists... it exists. Whether or not you can adjust to it, or you don't care, simply doesn't make it go away.

[Joe Jazz]

BTW, my statement was meant as a general one, not specific to just Stephen Howard and his review. As I have said before, I am not calling him a liar or saying that if a tonehole problem exists Keilwerth shouldn't be held accountable to higher standards. What I have been saying is that no one I know including myself has ever had a complaint associated with JK warped toneholes. This has all been talked about before and I wish people would stop posting the reference to his review like it was the first time and having us rehash this over and over.

[danarsenault]

My advice to run away from the particular horn described by the original poster was not based on not liking JK horns. I played a Couf Suberba I bari for years. The runner up when I bought my Ref 54 alto was an SX90R. I'm not a big fan of doing 'rolled' toneholes the way they show in the JK video, it seems likely to lead to problems. JK makes fine instruments, however, although I don't think the shadow is a good value proposition. Other thoughts expressed here about how to select a new top level sax seem very right and reasonable to me. I've been in lots of horn selection sessions with students and their parents. I try to include a variety of instruments in these sessions. My selection process is much like picking out a kitten, the kitten picks you.

[Joe Jazz]

A kitten would definitely be cheaper! Can you get one without "rolled" toneholes though?:)

[Giganova]

JK makes fine instruments, however, although I don't think the shadow is a good value proposition.
Well, most "high-end" products are not a good "value" because they tend to be expensive. Think about high-end cars, which have very little value left after a few years. The marketing strategy for high-end horns must be similar to that of Apple computers: they don't want a high market share and every customer they can get -- they simply want the customers with the highest buying power (Steve Jobs said that once). I have even seen pure-bread kittens go for thousands of bucks (to stay on topic) :D

[Ruediger Kramer]

What I have been saying is that no one I know including myself has ever had a complaint associated with JK warped toneholes. This has all been talked about before and I wish people would stop posting the reference to his review like it was the first time and having us rehash this over and over.

it was not the first time and it will not be the last time, that someone appreciates the Howard-site.

when i had to decide what sax to buy Mr. Howards hints were very helpful for me.

here in germany a Shadow costs today Euro 4000,-- - well, for less i´ve got two flawless tenors... and that makes me very happy!

[shmuelyosef]

You'll note too that I make the distinction between the Keilwerth brand in general and the 90R series...which is more than you did.
If the SX90R horns are better now than they used to be...
It's not just new Keilwerths, nor is it just Keilwerths. Lots of horns needing their first overhaul have roly-poly tone holes. I was just going through a Couf Superba I this past week and nearly every tone hole was low on the longitudinal edges. I lifted them all level before repadding...extra couple hours of labor on the overhaul. I also recently did a repad on a Selmer Series III that was similarly wobbly...(not just Keilwerth). The difference is you just have to get it close and then file the tops flat, so it's faster than with RTH. The Couf had pads with very deep seats compressed in them. They were obviously originally soft pads, but as they got hard they got leaky, sticky and unforgiving, because they had been so abused. With flat holes you can make a light seat that will stick less and leave more of the pads compliance for the future...

[Joe Jazz]

RK- glad you are happy! For less, no less!:)

[shmuelyosef]

What I have been saying is that no one I know including myself has ever had a complaint associated with JK warped toneholes.
I don't think there is much controversy about the 'fact' that many JKs do indeed have RTH that are not perfectly flat. I have observed 0.020" deviations from flatness in them. From the factory, they just use soft pads and clamp them to crush the felt to conform to the toneholes. This (IMHO) is what leads to sticky pads...the high contact area and unforgiving crushed felt. Subsequent repads can either 1) do the same thing or 2) level the toneholes and repad more gracefully. In both cases, if a competent tech does the overhaul, the horn will play fine and leak-free. It is mainly an issue of whether we have a right to expect flat toneholes in saxophones costing north of $3000!!!

[JCBigler]

once i was fallen in love with a Keilwerth too - after i had read this [link omitted]
my love was gone...
Oh brother, not this again :x

Seriously, can we have one thread about Keilwerth saxophones without letting all the trolls from other manufacturer's (Paris) spew their FUD all over the place.

I think there's more talk about how crappy JK horns are on this sub forum than there are positive ones.

Mister Moderator: Can we have a new rule about no links to Stephen Howard's Keilwerth FUD page?

FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt

[Ruediger Kramer]

Oh brother, not this again :x

Seriously, can we have one thread about Keilwerth saxophones without letting all the trolls from other manufacturer's (Paris) spew their FUD all over the place.

I think there's more talk about how crappy JK horns are on this sub forum than there are positive ones.

Mister Moderator: Can we have a new rule about no links to Stephen Howard's Keilwerth FUD page?

FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt

Is there a Church of Keilwerth-believers?

once again

the answer is given by Grumps:

If you're going to contradict Mr. Howard's review, I believe the only valid way to do so would be to prove the rolled toneholes on these horns are in fact not warped. Otherwise, he's just pointing out a manufacturing defect that he feels is unacceptable. Whether or not your horn sounds great is irrelevant. If the problem exists... it exists. Whether or not you can adjust to it, or you don't care, simply doesn't make it go away.

[Gandalfe]

As an admin, a scientist, and a sax player I just want to say that I respect Mr. Howard's review of saxes. That said, I play two Couf Superba I's, an alto and a tenor (check my profile), both made by Keilwerth. And I don't take any offense to the valid problems that Mr. Howard as taken the time and effort to document. I just haven't had to fix this with my horns... yet. 8-)

[stevesklar]

What I believe Howard was pointing out was the RTH attachment to the tonehole - not the true RTH and not very level. Anyways, if you go out and ask many techs you will find out that in the process of an overhaul the toneholes are checked (rolled or non-rolled) for their flatness, and if they aren't flat they are sanded down (for nonRTH). This is a very common thing and a common occurence even outside of JK.

[Joe Jazz]

Yo! When I read that Chicken Lil' said the sky was falling I ran down to my bomb shelter and have been there ever since. Still can't figure out how you beat me down here, Mr. Kramer..... :D

[samantha]

well..at least this much is sure. I don't want a selmer. I had a dislike for them before.. and then the music store gave me a selmer liberty as a loaner. ick. one felt pad fell off... and the whole thing won't play. =( ....

[mountainman]

well..at least this much is sure. I don't want a selmer. I had a dislike for them before.. and then the music store gave me a selmer liberty as a loaner. ick. one felt pad fell off... and the whole thing won't play. =( ....

Don't let the naysayers wear you down. Most of the negative comments come from those who play something else. Listen to Morry and others and use your own ears and fingers to judge. There is nothing like a German built horn and the Shadow is on the top of the list.

[samantha]

well... I know the ultimate decision comes down to how I play with the horn. however, even if this horn doesn't suit me... I'll probably try another model from Keilwerth. JK's just sound so much more different than anything else around.

[Morry]

The only important thing is how well the horn lets you achieve your own personal sound concept. Find the sax that let's you sound like (or closest to) what you hear in your head. For me, it was the Keilwerth. I knew it in the first 2 minutes, as I was doing some A-B comparisons with other horns.

Everything else is a moot point to me. Yes, my pads stuck. I had them replaced with Roo pads. Yes, the ergonomics were very different from the Yamahas that I was used to. I worked to get past that, too. If my tone holes were unlevel, it hasn't caused a problem yet. If it does, I'll have that addressed, but I'll still be playing the JK I bet.

[JCBigler]

For me, it was the Keilwerth. I knew it in the first 2 minutes...
Same here. I learned on a Yamaha 23, and the Julius Keilwerth saxophones were so much more of a saxophone. Everything else I've played always sounds too much like my Yamaha 23; the new Selmers, the higher level Yamahas, the Yanigasawas, and even older MarkVI's. The Keilwerth's that I have played all have the sound and playability that I longed for as a young student, and from the first time that I ever played one in a music store show room, I knew that I would spend the rest of my musical life playing Keilwerth saxophones, even though it was about three years until I finally had the money to buy my first Keilwerth.


Yes, the ergonomics were very different from the Yamahas that I was used to.
That's the other thing that I like about the Keilwerths. They fit my hands better than anything else. After playing on Keilwerth saxophones, everything else literally feels like a toy.

[mountainman]

The only important thing is how well the horn lets you achieve your own personal sound concept. Find the sax that let's you sound like (or closest to) what you hear in your head. For me, it was the Keilwerth. I knew it in the first 2 minutes, as I was doing some A-B comparisons with other horns.

Everything else is a moot point to me. Yes, my pads stuck. I had them replaced with Roo pads. Yes, the ergonomics were very different from the Yamahas that I was used to. I worked to get past that, too. If my tone holes were unlevel, it hasn't caused a problem yet. If it does, I'll have that addressed, but I'll still be playing the JK I bet.

Just to put in perspective any concern over stuck pads the only real problem for me has been the Bis key. For the first year I cleaned it one a month with crud patch or powdered papers and before important gigs. The problem seems to have mitigated itself as of late.

I had absolutely no problem going back and forth between the B&S and the Shadow.

[Rockplayer]

Sam, I just recently picked up an SX90 (straight tone holes), I love it - best horn I've ever owned. I thought about getting a yani 991 but when I played the two there was no comparison in tone (IMHO) the SX90 was overall a better sounding horn. Playability, I'm probably the wrong person to ask, I have huge hands so both horn felt pretty much the same to me, I do like the key layout on the SX90 better though, it's designed for playing with the horn at the side (instead of the out front Mark VI configuration) which suits me best. Something to think about, you can get the same great Keilwerth tone and playability without the issues surrounding rolled tone holes. Best of luck!

[Morry]

Just to put in perspective any concern over stuck pads the only real problem for me has been the Bis key. For the first year I cleaned it one a month with crud patch or powdered papers and before important gigs. The problem seems to have mitigated itself as of late.

I had absolutely no problem going back and forth between the B&S and the Shadow.

I also had problems with some of the palm keys, and other keys whose natural state is closed.

After having the Roo pads installed, I've not had a single incident.

[Connical]

Many comments in this thread regarding value. As someone who generally buys used, value means much to me as well. However, if you are looking
to own the sax for the long term, buy what you want now. The line that comes back to me over and over is often quoted in the antiques and
collectibles world. " The only purchase I have regretted is the one
I did't make ." Of course, my often depleted bank account does much to
counter balance that quote. Good luck with your purchase !

[jsweenie]

I own a Keilwerth Shadow (right out of the box, got it the first day it came in)
and before i played it they said they had to make some adjustments to the low stack. Id ask the storeowner to take a look at the alignment (and make sure theres no warped tone-holes as this has been a problem with older SX-90 R's and it is almost impossible to fix with the rolled th's). I never had a problem with mine, but for the amount of money these things cost I'd make sure youre getting a good one. Otherwise go to a different dealer and have them order you one.

[Dr G]

well..at least this much is sure. I don't want a selmer. I had a dislike for them before.. and then the music store gave me a selmer liberty as a loaner. ick. one felt pad fell off... and the whole thing won't play. =( ....

A "Liberty" is not a Selmer-Paris saxophone. Look at, listen to, and play a real Selmer before you dismiss them. Similar to the J-K (to be fair to you and the horns), make sure the horn is properly set up before playing it.

Yes, I play Selmers - and Borgani, and Yanigasawa. It's worth dismissing your prejudices and giving the horns a good audition. Once you find a great horn, you'll have it for a long time.

[Rick Adams]

Many comments in this thread regarding value. As someone who generally buys used, value means much to me as well. However, if you are looking
to own the sax for the long term, buy what you want now. The line that comes back to me over and over is often quoted in the antiques and
collectibles world. " The only purchase I have regretted is the one
I did't make ." Of course, my often depleted bank account does much to
counter balance that quote. Good luck with your purchase !I see your point here and I don't dispute it, but here's my situation. I recently decided to try to learn the sax again and I wanted to treat myself to a new sax, so I went along to the local store and tried lots out. In the end I settled on an SX-90R which just sounded "the best" to me - simpe as that! But because I'm a beginner I could only try out stuff I could actually do, so for example I couldn't subtone or atissimo on it. Additionally, if their is a tonehole problem perhaps with new springs, a stiff action and new pads this isn't a problem at first but it might become a problem later.

I had mine checked and adjusted by Steve, but it otherwise might have been many months on my own before I got good enough to know if there was any defect (or rather any important defect, I agree that if it doesn't matter then it doesn't matter) or perhaps I would have unconsciously compensated for a defect as I continued to learn and practice.

I guess the moral of this is that as a beginner without the necessary skills and experience I should have taken an expert along with me to the shop, although as Grumps and Steve has said, at that sort of money you do kind of expect the horn to be defect free in the first place! :)

Anyway, I'm still very happy with my SX-90R!

[Connical]

Congratulations Rick on your new purchase ! As someone who owned a earlier version of the SX90R (Keilwerth\Conn 108m, circa 1984), I can assure you that the warped tone hole issue has not been of any impact on my horn or it's longevity. Of course, if I had two identical models to choose from, and one had warped holes and the other did not. I would most certainly go with the defect free version. With that being said, I do believe the issue conjers up far too much concern. As with myself, when I first played my 108m, I knew this was the horn for me. Even if warped tone holes compromised the lifespan of the pads on the horn, I would readily pay to service the pads and continue to use this wonderfully built and engineered horn. For me, finding the horn that suits me is the most important issue, not a possible expenditure of the cost of a repad, which
would be years down the road. Enjoy your new horn , it's truly one of the top horns available today. :color:
Toobz

[Rick Adams]

Thanks Toobz. Now what I need to do is put in a lot of practice hours...