Mouthpiece advice needed for C melody horn

[synchro]

I recently bought a 1926 silver Martin C Melody horn. It can with a mouthpiece but I think I need a different one for it.

The real weird thing is this plastic shank thats been glued(?) around the cork on the neck. (Not sure if the cork has been cut away or is there underneath) The mouthpiece that came with the horn fits right onto this. It looks like a modified alto piece that has been drilled out on the bottom. Its in poor shape, the rails are chipped, etc.
A normal alto or tenor mouthpiece won't slide onto this setup at all. I don't know if I should remove the shank or not, get it recorked if needed and try an alto or tenor piece.

[SelmerSaksMan]

have someone make oe for you, I am eventually going to do that, unless this m/p with mine turns out to be something good, but I doubt it. If you want, I could hook you up with my tech, he used to make pieces, but hasnt for a while, because pretty much everything is covered these days.

[MS]

I unserstand that Ralph Morgan makes C melody mps. Do a search here on the forum, there's been some discussion regarding C Melody mps. :D

[Roger Aldridge]

I agree with MS about researching the messages posted to the Forum about the c-melody and various mouthpieces that people are using. For many of us, we've had to do a certain amount of trial & error to get to the point of having a set up that we really like on our particular horn.

In addition, I highly recommend Wade Walker's c-melody forum. It will be of great help to you!

Here's a link -- http://home1.gte.net/wwalker/cmelody.htm

There are a number of modern c-melody mouthpieces being made. They include Morgan, Runyon, Beechler, Bill Street, Meyer, and Leblanc (Woodwind). Each one has various pros and cons. My favorite is Morgan. Some players use alto or tenor mouthpieces.

The most important thing is to find a mouthpiece that has good intonation through the entire range of your particular c-melody. Believe me, one size doesn't fit all! A mouthpiece that works well on one c-melody make and model may or may not work equally well on another. So you see, the c-melody tends to take us into more individual territory than most other saxes. At least, this has been my experience.

Once you have your set up figured out the c-melody is an absolutely incredible instrument to play.

Please let us know how you're doing with it. :D

[synchro]

Thanks for the input so far!

I'm thinking about getting a Ralph Morgan C Melody mouthpiece but in the meantime I still can't decide if I should remove the plastic "shank" thats been put onto it so I can use an Alto or Tenor piece. As it is right now the only mouthpiece I can use is the one that came with it, and its in pretty rough shape. Chipped rails and such. The intonation on it is really bad too. Could an alto or tenor piece be much worse?

[Roger Aldridge]

It depends upon your horn. Some c-mel players use alto or tenor mouthpieces. Some report have good intonation while some say that it's not very good and have to adjust in certain ways. I tried alto and tenor pieces on my c-mel and the intonation was absolutely terrible. It's possible that you may have better luck. Never the less, it's important to remember that a c-melody is NOT an alto or tenor. The length and dimension of it's bore is quite different. Thus, it's never made logical sense to me why something other than a c-melody mouthpiece would work intonation-wise on a c-mel. Ya know?

[Tharruff]

I have read postings over and over where people say that they have good results with either a Tenor or an Alto mouthpiece on a 'C' Sax.

Several years ago I bought a Conn straight neck C-Sax and found the original Conn Eagle Logo mouthpiece to be very stuffy and closed. So I tried EVERY Alto and Tenor mouthpiece that I owned on it. (probably 20 or 25 different mouthpieces)

I couldn't get it even CLOSE to being in tune with ANY of them.

Eventually I bought a couple of other actual C-Sax mouthpieces and found one that was a little more open and seemed to work good enough to be playable, using Tenor reeds on it.

Anyone who can play an Alto or Tenor mouthpiece on a C-Sax and play in tune knows something that I don't. (and that is certainly possible)

[synchro]

Well I took the plastic shank off and the cork is o.k. underneath. Really, really dry through. So I tried my Meyer HR 7 alto piece on it. Not bad. Much better than the mouthpiece that was with it. Plays quite sharp with the octave key and a bit flat without. My wife says it sounds like my alto with a cold. Then I tried a tenor C* that I have. It was waaaay off. Almost an entire pitch flat no matter what I did. So I will have to look into some C pieces. Any cheap $$$$ suggestions to start?

[singlereed]

Have a look at www.dawkes.co.uk - they sell two low priced Windcraft C melody mouthpieces, one is plastic, the other ebonite. Both play almost exactly like a vintage Buescher mouthpiece, I know I have owned all of them! As a stock piece, either will give an accurate vintage sound with your horn. My advice would be to ask them to open the mouthpiece a bit to your taste, I had one done to the equivalent of a Meyer 6 and it played great, the guy who does the refacing there is very good.

FYI, I have also owned two Beechler C melody mouthpieces, both were awful although when I had one of them refaced (as above) it played great, but otherwise the facing (it was a 7 IIRC) was too short and to closed to produce a worthwhile sound, until refaced, neither was better than the original Buescher piece, or the much cheaper Windcraft pieces.

[cmelodysax]

Singlereed - your C-Mel mouthpiece experiences are exactly why I've stuck with using mostly tenor mpcs on my C-Mels.
I must have magic chops and ears, and a tone-deaf digital tuner - because on both the Martin & Buescher C-Mels I use, I have no real tuning problems with Link HR and Larsen HR tenor mouthpieces. The odd note is up to 20% off, but then I'm used to that with vintage horns, also with the low=flat / high=sharp (but not much) scenario across the range. Conn C-Mels are a different case however, because of the microtuner needing relatively short-shank mpcs, they probably need dedicated mpcs - unless you have a hacksaw handy.....

Roger - I agree totally with your statement that the C-Mel is not an Alto or a Tenor. However, the wide world has sax players pushing back sound frontiers so that at times you really have to concentrate to tell which horn is beig used, some with an alto that sounds thick like a tenor, others with a 'toppy' tenor playing harmonics and sounding more like a muscular alto at times. Until C-Melodies can be 'worked' to produce some of the varieties of sound that a modern sax player demands (and available C-Mel mpcs are limited in sound, facings and/or supply, you must admit that) our much-loved C-Mel will not gain the general acceptance it deserves.
So some of us happily use the alto & tenor mpcs we love - after all, the tenor is only a tone down and the alto just a tone and a half up........ Good luck to those who want to sound like 'tram', but vintage altos and tenors have moved on and proved their worth in todays music, so can the very capable C-Mel - with a little help from us.
---
No criticism of any style or sound intended, that's the beauty of music, there's room for everything, even Bill Clinton's sax playing...............
---
Regards, Alan.

[singlereed]

I didn't find that my tenor mouthpieces worked very well on the C melody, and once I had the C-melody pieces mentioned above refaced to a modern facing, I was able to get a good sound and intonation. As it happens, I lost interest in the C melody saxophones and sold them anyway.

[cmelodysax]

Singlereed, I used to live near the Dawkes shop, and glad to hear that you were happy with the refacing work (from memory his name was Anton... ?)

Were you able to get harmonics, even just a few notes up to A, with either of the C-Mel mouthpieces once refaced ? Seems mildly annoying that, in this age when most players go for medium to open mouthpieces, they are only supplied close like the originals.

Regards, Alan.

[Roger Aldridge]

Alan,

Please don't misunderstand what I was trying to say. When I said a c-melody is not an alto or a tenor I was only talking about it from an acoustical design standpoint. The bore of a c-melody has a length-to-diameter ratio that's unique among all of the other saxophones. Therefore, in this respect it is different from an alto or a tenor.

Having said that, it's important that we remember that not all c-melodies are the same. In trying a Buescher stencil a couple of months ago I was surprised at how different it's sound is from my Conn. It sounded darker and thicker -- more tenor-like perhaps. Thus, between the various c-melody makes and models there's a wide range of sounds that we can explore as players.

Personally, I'm fine with whatever sound c-melody players want to have on their horn. Believe me, I'm not interested in having a stuffy 1920's c-melody sound! If you heard me play, you'd quickly understand that. ha ha ha What I strive to do is to explore the unique tonal qualities of a c-melody on it's own terms while having a sound that has a level of brillance and projection so that it can hold it's own with other horns in an ensemble. This is why I use a Morgan c-melody mouthpiece instead of a vintage piece.

In hindsight, I think that I was led to a 1919 curved neck Conn in kind of a mystical way. If I had gotten a Buescher or a Buescher stencil I think that I would have developed a different tonal conception of the c-melody. An early model Conn has tonal qualities that I've not heard with any other type of saxophone. One thing you need to know about me is that much of my musical training is in composition. Exploring different aspects of tonal color and qualities of sound have been important to me for a very long time. Thus, when I acquired a c-melody and starting hearing these absolutely amazing sounds coming out of it I completely freaked out. It opened up a whole new musical world for me and I've been having the time of my life exploring the tonal possibilities of a c-melody.

So, Alan, I hope this gives you a better idea of how I relate to a c-melody. If someone wants to have more of a tenor sound or an alto sound on their c-melody I don't have a problem with that. Whatever folks want to do on their horn is cool with me. In fact, most of the modern guys I listen to who record on c-melody -- such as Joe Lovano and Dave Pietro -- use alto mouthpieces. Go figure! ha ha ha But, for me, I love to explore the tonal qualties of a c-melody that makes it unique.

[singlereed]

Tinminer, yes it was refaced by Anton Weinberg. I don't recall trying harmonics on it, this is something I have only got into more recently. BTW, I wouldn't say my taste is for open mouthpieces or anything like, its just that the old and new C melody pieces seem to be *very* closed. Also, the Beechler facing is very short, something else I don't get on with.

[mark_m]

Synchro, email me if you're interested in a Runyon C-melody piece I have, I was thinking of selling it anyway and it may fix you up for very little $$.

Mark M.
Xmark@radium.com (take the X off the front to use this)

[rlowenote]

I currently have a Grand Opera Conn Stencil on loan with what I assume to be the original mouthpiece. It sounds ok to me, but the sax needs some replacement of pads. Since then I've acquired a Conn with a straight neck and it came with an ALTO mouthpiece. It plays sharp and is nasaly. I plan on grinding on the mpc and also chopping on a tenor mpc I've got coming.

I'm starting to realize that I'll probably have to get a real mpc, but there is no way I can afford a Morgan. I've seen several people mention various mouthpieces (new, made for C-Melody) in the posts here. Can you suggest any particular brand or vendor to go to. I don't even have any idea about what facing or specs to request. I'm just trying to play my sax and have it sound decent for what it is. I know the alto sound (whiney) is not what I want. I have to save the big money to get the sax dialed in before I spend big money on a mouthpiece.

I even noticed that a lot of the instruments on e-bay don't have mouthpieces and some people even have double listings, one for sax, neck and case; and another for a mouthpiece (probably from/for the first listing). Many that do include mpc look like a tenor or alto, but these people "don't really know anything about instruments".

Any advice, especially from those that have had to play around and finally buy something besides a Morgan would be greatly appreciated.

[singlereed]

Read my thought on the post above. The other makes of new C melody pieces besides Windcraft and Beechler include Runyon, Morgan and (I believe I read somewhere on the C melody forum), Leblanc. I would get the Windcraft ebonite one and get it refaced to the equivalent of a Meyer 6. The piece costs about $50 and the refacing, $40.

[michaelbaird]

I use a Dukoff D7 tenor on my Buescher C Melody and love the tone. I have to cram the mouthpiece on far and check it with a tuner. But the horn plays in tune with a great altissimo range. Check out WWW.runyonproducts.com