What happened to all those SGUnison horns

[pat]

I was following this thread closely a year ago, excited about the prospects of a revolutionary horn entering the market. I knew it was hype, but it was fun. Heck, if even half of what was said were true, it was to be a pivotal point in the history of the saxophone. I decided to wait and see what new owners have to say about the horn before plunking down a deposit.

Then production takes longer than expected, people get anxious, coincidentally SOTW changes formats and loses a huge percentage of its following and the hype, at least on SOTW drops dead, Meanwhile Steve Goodson claims family concerns have taken him from his shop and therefore he can't set up the horns, finally a few horns ship, but disgruntled customers claim they can't get cooperation from Steve, then suddenly Steve, who did so much on SOTW suddenly bows out of the forum, there is even talk about involving the police and the Better Business Bureau, a ton of questions are raised, and THAT WAS LAST SPRING! Now it is practicacally the end of summer!!!!!!!! and still no real answers are found here one SOTW, where once there was so much excitement. Most of these SG Unison threads have not been touched in weeks if not months. If so many people put down down-payments, like we were lead to believe, that seems odd. If anybody can answer any of the following questions, please do so.

What happened to all those people who reportedly put a downpayment on the SG model?

Do they still frequent this forum?

Did they get their horns?

Are they still waiting patiently?

If they get sick of waiting and ask for a refund, do they get it?

With the exception of FunBUn, why is there mysteriously little positive or negative feedback from new owners who once were in such a frenzy for their new horn?

If they got their horns, why don't more people post? If the horn is good, why don't they say so? If it stinks, then why don't they say so? I fthey are still waiting, why don't they say so?

While the horn was in production, the SG Unison threads would fill up with several dozens of new posts a week. Why is there such silence now?

What is the reason Steve abandoned his posting on this site? Heck, he created an incredible hype through the forum. If the horn is all it was cracked up to be, wouldn't the forum further promulgate the hype even after the horn is shipping?

At what is supposed to be the moment of glory, why the sudden silence?

Most of all, are SG Unisons out there, and if so, how do they play?

Ya'know, despite all the questions that have been raised over this whole SG Unison thing the last few months (and some of them are pretty serious allegations), it seems that if the horns really are great and really are getting into the hands of satisfied new owners, all the concerns raised would be just flies buzzing around the elephant. So if the SG Unison is really is what it was cracked up to be, why in the heck has all the SG Unison communication died?

If it could be summarized by bashing Steve, then why did that stop months ago? If I had $1000 down and were still waiting, I wouldn't let up. Were there actually only a couple of people who put money down and all the others who were in "wait-and-see" mode, but now are so puzzled by all the concerns raised they just decided to bail on the whole SG Unison idea?

Something is odd.

It seems like SOMEONE would speak up....(prefereably with facts or PERSONAL experience) Considering all the time spent following the SG Unison Threads last year, it seems like there would be at least a dozen new owners who have SOMETHING to say (besides FunBUN. Thanks FunBun)

Speak Up! PLEASE!

Pat

[DezzaG]

Well its good to see that Steve G can still put up EBAY auctions to make some money! :?

[Perfect Pitch]

Having perused most of the relevant threads, I would hazard that this is a tender subject.....

[Stacey]

Pat,

Here are my own personal details, just to prove that I, at least, am a real person, and not an alter-ego (I can speak only for myself - I can't even vouch that YOU are real, but so be it):

What happened to all those people who reportedly put a downpayment on the SG model?
- I'm still here. It should be noted for the record that I have ordered my horn through a different dealer than almost every other person who is posting here.

Do they still frequent this forum?
- Yes, I do. Daily. I rank about #62 on the forum (out of 2800+) in terms of total posts.

Did they get their horns?
- Not yet, but I was also told mine would not, even in a best-case scenario, arrive before late August.

Are they still waiting patiently?
- Patiently? No. As patiently as I can? Yes.

If they get sick of waiting and ask for a refund, do they get it?
- Can't answer that one. I haven't asked for a refund, and don't intend to until about a year has passed (mid-May 2004).

With the exception of FunBUn, why is there mysteriously little positive or negative feedback from new owners who once were in such a frenzy for their new horn?
- I have the same question. I'm still just a wannabe owner, obviously. I can swear to you that the moment I get my horn (well, a couple of days later), I will post a review of the horn, whether positive or negative. My review will obviously be subjective, especially since I've not played ANY tenor in years. However, it will at least be A REVIEW, by an owner.

If they got their horns, why don't more people post? If the horn is good, why don't they say so? If it stinks, then why don't they say so? If they are still waiting, why don't they say so?
- I am still waiting, and say so fairly often.

While the horn was in production, the SG Unison threads would fill up with several dozens of new posts a week. Why is there such silence now?
- Some people got frustrated, some people lost interest, and above all no one really seems to have anything new to say. I have noticed that the threads still get a huge number of page views, which tells me there are people watching and probably waiting.

What is the reason Steve abandoned his posting on this site? Heck, he created an incredible hype through the forum. If the horn is all it was cracked up to be, wouldn't the forum further promulgate the hype even after the horn is shipping?
- See Steve's post under the "Announcements" section of the forum. I can not speak for Steve, and I encourage other SOTW posters to adopt this approach, too.

At what is supposed to be the moment of glory, why the sudden silence?
- It was indeed sudden, but it wasn't recent. It dropped off months ago. It's also a darned good question. You should note that as far as I can tell, there has not been any promotion, explanation, or anything else from UNISON itself - only posts by Steve G and by people who encountered the horns at trade shows, etc. And of course posts by people who are on the waiting list (like me).

Most of all, are SG Unisons out there, and if so, how do they play?
- You will find greatly differing opinions out here. There are apparently some in existence. My advice to you is simple: Trust no one. Find a horn at a dealer and try it out, or listen only to people you already trust. I have a good friend who has tried a Unison SG tenor, and he spoke very highly of it. That gives ME a lot of comfort, but I advise you NOT to trust me. You don't know me. I might work for Unison. Or Yanagisawa. Or the Communists.

[Morry]

Finally, a bit of sanity brought back to this thread. Kudos!

[Stacey]

Fraud, misrepresentation, libel, slander... those are all accusations I could tolerate having leveled at me.

But, geez, Morry, did you HAVE to go accusing me of SANITY! :wink:

The thing I have to remember is simple: at the end of day, horn or no horn, good horn or crappy horn, my health is good, my job is good, my marriage is strong, my son is healthy, beautiful, and smart, and I'm blessed with great friends and relatives.

[Paul Coats]

I have seen and test played the prototypes, and have seen and played the production model.

I have personally seen the horns coming into Goodson's shop, handled, drooled, over them. I arrived on day just as three large boxes were being opened. We pulled a few off the top and looked at a bright silver tenor, with the black goatskin pads and large Noyeks, and at an alto with the Roo pads and smaller resonators ("classical setup"), as well as one black nickel tenor (a real beauty!).

Yes, I have a tenor on order, too. I did not put down a deposit. I paid 100% full in advance (before it trickled away elsewhere). Mine will be two tone gold (satin-burninshed finish) with with two necks, the extra neck a solid silver Masterpiece neck.

The "hype" is justified. I can assure you, the last thing I need is another tenor. But after playing the prototype, I knew I had to have one. Though the wait has been difficult, to me it will be worth it.

[colibri]

No matter how good the horn is, when the down payment is collected, no horn by promised date, that's bad business practice. Who cares about Steve's family? No horn is no horn.

[Jack Metcalf]

That's true Paul. Like I said earlier, there's been a lot of empty words laid down here. Your credibility wears thin as you continue to support this venture. I'll go on record now and let Harri ban me for it, but I'm more than a little disappointed in you of all people, Paul.

But in a sense you did answer a lingering question of mine.

[StevenW]

If anybody can answer any of the following questions, please do so.

What happened to all those people who reportedly put a downpayment on the SG model?

I still have my deposits in. Can't answer for the rest. BTW deposit arrangments are up to the dealer, and not a Unison thing.



Do they still frequent this forum?

ditto



Did they get their horns?

Mine are not here yet.



Are they still waiting patiently?

Relatively.... only relatively. I'd sure like mine here, but I will wait.



If they get sick of waiting and ask for a refund, do they get it?

I've been told yes. Nobody has posted that they were refused.



With the exception of FunBUn, why is there mysteriously little positive or negative feedback from new owners who once were in such a frenzy for their new horn?

A lot of players don't post here.



If they got their horns, why don't more people post? If the horn is good, why don't they say so? If it stinks, then why don't they say so? I fthey are still waiting, why don't they say so?

ditto



While the horn was in production, the SG Unison threads would fill up with several dozens of new posts a week. Why is there such silence now?


The design is fixed. Much of the previous threads were discussing prototypes and features.



What is the reason Steve abandoned his posting on this site? Heck, he created an incredible hype through the forum. If the horn is all it was cracked up to be, wouldn't the forum further promulgate the hype even after the horn is shipping?

He has posted his reasons already.




At what is supposed to be the moment of glory, why the sudden silence?

Rather dramatic??!! Deliveries have started at modest volumes, hardly a big event.




Most of all, are SG Unisons out there, and if so, how do they play?

The couple I plyed were excellent. Felt the build was JK/Selmer turf, the intonation greatly improved and all around excellent horns. But that is based on less than 2 to 3 hours playing them.



Ya'know, despite all the questions that have been raised over this whole SG Unison thing the last few months (and some of them are pretty serious allegations), it seems that if the horns really are great and really are getting into the hands of satisfied new owners, all the concerns raised would be just flies buzzing around the elephant. So if the SG Unison is really is what it was cracked up to be, why in the heck has all the SG Unison communication died?

What complaints? One unhappy camper who's story has a lot more to it than meets the eye does not make "flies buzzing around the elephant".

His gripe was also about one dealer, not Unison.




If it could be summarized by bashing Steve, then why did that stop months ago? If I had $1000 down and were still waiting, I wouldn't let up. Were there actually only a couple of people who put money down and all the others who were in "wait-and-see" mode, but now are so puzzled by all the concerns raised they just decided to bail on the whole SG Unison idea?


Ask Goodson what Unison's preorders were and he won't say. That is his perogative. When working with Steve Goodson Woodwinds LLC I basically saw the option for myself of waiting and picking a standard horn up some point when the shops have stock, or putting a deposit down so I could get the special order features I want. I wasn't promised anything more than "when it is ready, we'll call".



Something is odd.


Something is odd - some how is seems hard to seperate Unison, Steve Goodson Woodwinds LLC, deposits, returns, complaints and also the actually numbers in focus.

Steve Goodson Woodwinds LLC is a Unison Dealer.

Steve Goodson personally also has taken on a role at Unison, which confuses things.

Deposits appear to be up to the dealer placing the order for the horn with Unison. Most seem to be taking a deposit to hold a spot. (This means that OTHER dealers are also taking deposits and holding them).

Returns are a dealer/customer thing.

Complaints are difficult to "examine" in this format of a forum, due to the inability to share the actual data, receipts and information.

The Actual Numbers are available at the whim and preference of the business we, as forum posts, are afforded by the representative of the business. Just because we ask doesn't mean anyone has to answer.

StevenW 8)

[Hurling Frootmig]

It's should be pretty simple to figure out how many horns have shipped just based on serial numbers. Unless Unison has taken to the Yamaha method of serial number allocation . . . that is.

I am making a major leap of logic that the SG model has it's own unique serial number list.

I think the SG's look interesting and I recently inquired of a dealer if I could get a hold of a tenor in short order. He indicated that one was available but it was Silver and had a solid silver neck. Way more than I was looking to spend.

[pknight]

What complaints? One unhappy camper who's story has a lot more to it than meets the eye does not make "flies buzzing around the elephant".

His gripe was also about one dealer, not Unison.


StevenW is correct that the bulk of the griping has been about Steve Goodson, and not Unison (although there was the business with Unision posting anonymous quotes from this fourm, but those threads were deleted).

However, StevenW is not accurate in implying that only one person has complained about Steve Goodson. True, most of the traffic over the past couple of weeks has addressed Brian's SG Unison experience, but if you go back through the threads you find a number of other people who have similar complaints about SG's lack of communication with customers who have complaints.

Beyond that, a couple of people (one of them the moderator) have posted a link to a web site that contains a detailed description of a problem from 1998 that is VERY similar to Brian's OTHER bad experience with SG, involving repair work: http://web.archive.org/web/20000826211719/www.accessone.com/~khenson/goodsonbeware.html That site, in turn, contains links to an even earlier case involving another customer. (The first time that I saw the first of these cases discussed on SOTW was a couple of years ago. Steve Goodson's comment at that time was that he had already posted his side of the story, and that he would comment no further. Unfortunately, his response had already been removed from whatever site it was posted to, and we are not able to read his side of that story.)

Further, the BBB apparently has multiple complaints against Steve Goodson for failure to respond to customers. I am certain that these people are quite independent of Brian.

So, this is NOT an isolated incident. StevenW and Steve Goodson can keep implying that it is only one person, but that is just not the case. And unless you are willing to subscribe to some vast-anti-Saxgourmet conspiracy that has been in place since 1997, the similar nature of these complaints make it impossible to conclude that this is just a coincidence.

I have no stake in this debate, and have sworn off further comments on a couple of occasions. However, like others I value SOTW, and I have a hard time just sitting here while others engage in selcetive presentation of the facts, straw-man arguments, and other slight-of-hand to try to convince us that the Emperor actually has nice new threads.

[Harri Rautiainen]

That's true Paul. Like I said earlier, there's been a lot of empty words laid down here. Your credibility wears thin as you continue to support this venture. I'll go on record now and let Harri ban me for it, but I'm more than a little disappointed in you of all people, Paul.

We had two members who asked to be banned because, as they confessed, they could not control their behavior on the Internet.

Jack, please help me with some more justification. What part of the SOTW rules are you violating?

-Harri

[Claus]

I have been following these threads with interest, but since i am not waiting for a SG Unision, I will not add any lenghty comment. Just one observation:

Paul C. wrote:

Yes, I have a tenor on order, too. I did not put down a deposit. I paid 100% full in advance (before it trickled away elsewhere).

It is worthwile contrasting this to what Steve Goodson has to say in his article "Choosing and Dealing with a Sax Technician" here on SOTW.

When the horn is ready, pick it up and pay your bill in full. I charge clients $5 per day storage for every day they leave the horn with me after the repair is done, and sell the horn if it is left over thirty days with an unpaid bill. I have them sign a waiver giving me the right to do this, which is a part of the work order. Your repair shop is not in the financing business.

It seems a lot of customers have now found themselves to be in the "financing business".

[singlereed]

Presumably, then, he is also happy to pay $5 per day for every day he is late in fulfilling an order or returning a repair?

[CashSax]

This sounds like a very well balanced thread to me. I ordered a Tenor last fall direct from Steve G (total custom with all the options) and after waiting about 3-4mos (being an instant gratification type cat) I decided to put the $$$$ into another tenor (mint SilverSonic)..I had no real problems with Steve with returning my "deposit" in a timely manner..in fact Steve G treated me like family altough we'd never met in person..I still want to get my hands on one to try..but to re-order a custom job I would certainly want a reasonably firm timetable for delivery before trying again..sounds as though dealers are recieving stock models at this point..might be time to check in again with my local Unison dealer. :wink:

[Bill Mecca]

I remained silent on this subject for several reasons, the most basic is that no one but Steve Goodson and Brian know the truth, the whole truth.
(but now I choose to throw out some comments)

I have read the complaints about Steve's repair work, and have also seen his wonderful overhaul of an SDA alto, with the owner telling me Steve communicated all along the process, since the horn was shipped from some distance. So, as for me, I have some old second/third hand comments on a web site, and some personal experience, that seemed diametrically opposed. Then we have the current situation with Brians refund, and the lack of communication.

I can respect Steve's position for not discussing dealings with one particular customer in a public forum. I understand Brian was frustrated at not being able to reach Steve so posted here to maybe get his attention. Hopefully that has worked.

As for the lack of communication with customers, sorry Steve, but, if true, that is inexcusable. A return phone call, e-mail, especially from someone with an intense web presence, should be the norm and not the exception.
I also take issue with the statement that Brian's refund was dependant upon resale of the horn in question. Sorry, that just doesn't wash.

What is the truth? sadly we will probably never know, but no one who has read these threads can honestly say they are "uniformed". Read the information and make your own judgment.

But Steve, I would respectfully suggest some customer service training, because even if one tenth of what we hear is true, that is not good. There are a number of tapes available, "Give 'em the Pickle" "The Guest", and "The Difficult Guest," (that one is aimed at difficult customers.)


Perception is Reality.

[David B]

I posted a lengthy reply last nite which hasn't shown up yet?????

Basically, I put a $1000 deposit for a tenor in November, 2002. Still no horn. I spoke to Steve twice last month and he assured me my horn was in and I would have it in a couple weeks or less. One month later still no horn and no word from Steve. Now when I call I get an answering machine that won't let me leave a message.

I have tried to be patient due to Steve's medical problems and obvious production problems but last week i e-mailed him directly to ask for my deposit back. Lo and behold, no response whatsoever.

As I said, I have refrained from namecalling or character assassination so prevelent in these threads, but I musy say the total lack of communication or information is baffling and annoying. Surely Steve must have employees who could take the time to at least inform those of us who have given a deposit in good faith what is going on!

Steve, if you are still reading these threads please don't keep us hanging in limbo with no word whatsoever.

[pknight]

but I musy say the total lack of communication or information is baffling and annoying. Surely Steve must have employees who could take the time to at least inform those of us who have given a deposit in good faith what is going on!

Yet another. Please note, StevenW.

This is pure speculation, but I am beginning to believe that perhaps Steve Goodson's record keeping is bad. Perhaps he just doesn't know who has sent him money or who he owes horns to. I know that sounds crazy, and it can't possibly be the case, except that the allternative is to assume complete disregard for these customers' claims, which I sincerely hope is not true.

David B: Regarding he post from last night not showing up, there is typically no delay at all in posts appearing on the forum, so your earlier message must have either not actually been sent (I have done that in the past :oops: ), or it was lost along the way.

[DD3]

Thank you for your post David B-- This certainly seems to lay your cards on the table pretty well, would be nice to hear from the other side. Perhaps Steven W. can help us rationalize the lack of communication!

[saxduck]

Pat, most of us are still here. Waiting.

Why don't people post? I believe they just don't want to deal with the crap. No matter what is posted, it garners criticism from the membership. The attitude, I'm sure, is: "who needs it".

Paul, thank you again for your post. Standing up for Steve Goodson is not the easiest thing in this SOTW climate.

Paul, you seem to have access to Steve G that others don't. This 'lack of delivery' situation should be becoming critical for Unison. Managers at Unison should be feeling the heat. It begins to look like the priority is for Steve to go around to shows promoting the product that can't be delivered. A corporate sales manager might well go out on the show circuit, but he should also delegate someone to take care of business back at the hacienda. Obviously there is a breakdown in Unison's business model. More thought needs to be given to the relevance of the Unison corporate structure as it impacts business functionality.

SaxDuck

[pknight]

Why don't people post? I believe they just don't want to deal with the crap. No matter what is posted, it garners criticism from the membership. The attitude, I'm sure, is: "who needs it".

saxduck,

This was suggested by StevenW a while back, and several people wondered why a person who had an SG Unison, and liked it, would fail to post. Virtually nobody here has suggested that there is any problem with the horns themselves. And, I can't imagine that anyone would receive any "crap" for giving their evaluation of a sax that they have played. In fact, a few posts from people who have actually received their SG Unisons, and found them to be all that Unison claims, would go a lot farther than anything else to quiet anyone who has questions about the saxes.

However, I'm not so sure that it would do much for the reputation of SG himself. You summarized the problems quite well, but people have been saying these things for months.

[Morry]

Funbun is a case in point. He purchased (and actually received) a SG Unison, and loves it to pieces. To my knowledge, nobody has given him grief over it. To the contrary, everyone congratulated him on his new toy, and marveled at his ability to get his hands on one.

[Stacey]

Morry, to be honest... some of us did kind of want to strangle FunBun and take away his sax, though.

But we've done a pretty good job restraining ourselves. :shock:

[saxduck]

Knight, if I'm saying things that others have been saying for months, then I apologize for the redundancy.

I continue to believe that many people don't post because they are fed up with the hassle. If you believe that there is no hassle, just look at the other sax boards. Steve G and his "unicorn" are demonized. I even found a website where StevenW is the primary devil. All because people are jealous of what Steve Goodson has accomplished. Be honest. Most people would die happy if they were as well known and respected in their fields as Steve Goodson is in his. Many recording artists ask for him, he is in high demand. Which ones among us would not love to be in that situation?

That said, I am one of the legions that put down my $1K more than a year ago and am still waiting. As I mentioned, I am in management in one of the worlds largest multinational corporations. I am not impressed with the business model that Unison seems to function under (or rather, doesn't function under). Unison is in huge trouble. They have no distribution capability suitable for this problem. Their manufacturing capacity was vastly inferior to meet the initial demand for the SG Unison. They have a well-known (famous) musician as a sales manager that seems to be out promoting a product that can't be delivered. Part of the problem is that this same sales manager is also personally (italics) responsible for distribution which doesn't get done while he is ill or on the road promoting. A good business model would decouple these two functions as much as possible. (In an efficient company, the distribution / delivery has very little to do with the sales force. They are independent but perhaps might account to the same VP.)

The problems at Unison are not Steve's fault. They are the fault of the higher-level managers at Unison. The fact that the situation has been allowed to fester as long as it has tells me that Steve Goodson in his capacity as Sales Manager has very little guidance or supervision. The management at Unison is the problem, not Steve Goodson.

SaxDuck

[Bill Mecca]

----

[max]

If you believe that there is no hassle, just look at the other sax boards. Steve G and his "unicorn" are demonized.

Uh... and this has what to do with SOTW?

As has been pointed out, the few people who have posted here with their experiences have been fine.

If it were up to me, these horns would be treated as any other horn; there were problems with the Yamaha necks, there were discussions, it was fine.

But since this forum has been used to whip up hype for these horns, there's more emotion surrounding them, and when they're not delivered, it's only natural that the tide will turn. You've got to take the bad with the good.

Still, this (wholly justified) "backlash" has only been against Unison - not in any way the players who have posted comments.

[Paul Coats]

Saxduck commented "Paul, you seem to have access to Steve G that others don't."

I don't mean to sound immodest, and don't know how to phrase this any other way, but I do have access to a lot of people that others don't.

"This 'lack of delivery' situation should be becoming critical for Unison. Managers at Unison should be feeling the heat. It begins to look like the priority is for Steve to go around to shows promoting the product that can't be delivered."

Well, I don't speak for Goodson, and I don't speak for Unison, I am just another customer.

My access is living within a driving distance, and traveling to New Orleans, fighting the traffic, and going to Steve's shop, looking at the prototypes, discussing features, etc.

This instrument is not just a slightly dressed up "another Taiwanese clone" instrument. It is entirely new tooling from the body to the keywork. Tooling had to be made from handmade prototypes, etc, and back and forth, to get it just right. Then they had to learn how to build and set up these instruments, which is different and more complex from their previous models.

Which brings us to now. The instruments are arriving, and they are well made, to Steve's specs. No compromises have been made by bean counters, the production models are like the prototypes, but better, and much prettier than the protos.

I know they wanted to get things perfect, to have the instrument work exactly as it should.

This brings me to my next few points. No one HAD to put down a deposit. No one HAD to buy one of these. Everyone that wants one in the future can buy one at a Unison dealer.

Many people wanted to make sure they got one of the first to arrive. I am one. I reserved serial number 002. I also ordered a special finish, other options.

If you do not like dealing with Goodson, you do not have to. Go elsewhere. Wait. You can get one of these saxes eventually. But they are now coming into the country.

I know of one custom gunsmith who has a SEVEN YEAR waiting list. Anyone who has ever had a largebore big game rifle built would laugh if you said, "I put down a deposit and waited a year."

But these will not be like custom built firearms, they will be in regular production. People who put down deposits did so to insure they got one from the early batches, and knew they were not in full production yet.

[pknight]

Unison is in huge trouble. They have no distribution capability suitable for this problem. Their manufacturing capacity was vastly inferior to meet the initial demand for the SG Unison.

Saxduck, about a year ago I went to the Unison web site, and looked at their list of dealers. I then posted that if anything would kill the SG Unison, it would be their small, geographically skewed dealer network (I believe it was 20 to 30 states with NO dealers at all, and about half of the dealers they did have were in California), and the inadequate distribution system that was implied by the dealership problems. SG responded, in no uncertain terms, that Unison was fully up to the task. Now, if I could see this coming by just looking at the company web site, where was SG's head?

I suspect that Goodson overlooked a lot of these details because he was seduced by Unison's willingness to give him carte blanche on the design of these saxes. I'm sure this was a dream come true for him, but as you said, Unison appears not to have been up to the task in terms of production and distribution.

Paul C, while we know that you heve seen a few boxes of these horns in SG's shop, I think that it is reasonable to speculate that Unison may be in over their head. The back and forth on the design of these instruments was completed, according to SG, almost a year ago! Why would production just be getting cranked up now?

And, you aren't the first one to draw an analogy to custom firearms. However, you are correct that these are NOT custom-built saxes, they are regular production models. It should not take an act of Congress to get a particular finish, or a particular set of pads. Other manufacutrers manage to produce a variety of finishes and provide other options and still keep their production number up. Even if the SG saxes are starting to trickle in, the logical conclusion is that Unison is not up to the task. Honestly, when you reserved serial number 002, did you expect to wait this long? Didn't you think that it would be one of the first saxes produced?

[Paul Coats]

I was expecting to receive mine sometime late spring to early summer. I was not expecting to have #002 literally the second one off the line, that they would be made in batches as to finish. I did not order a plain lacquered sax. When it gets here, it gets here. I have seen enough of them to know they are being made.

pknight (and anyone else here, too) I make this offer: When I receive #002, anyone who is in the area and wants to come by and play it, compare with my Mk VI, my SML (bring your own mouthpiece), come on over. You may contact me at the email address you all have (on all the articles), maybe we can work our schedules together, and play saxophones for a few hours. I'll make coffee. Heck, I'll cook a gumbo for you. If you are too far away, I'll send pictures and the gumbo recipe, best I can do. And while you are visiting, I'll reface your mouthpiece and check your horn for leaks. I might make you take a few sax quartet arrangements home with you.

[Grumps]

I don't speak for Unison, I am just another customer.


Not exactly Mr. C.......
I draw your attention to the following, posted last month by Mr. Goodson on a Yahoo site where he has continued to solicit business:

From: STEVE GOODSON <selmervi@b...>
Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 2:22pm
Subject: Paul Coats and Unison


I am pleased to announce that Paul Coats has joined the Unison Saxophone team as our latest Endorsing Artist.
Paul Coats earned his Bachelor of Fine Arts, majoring
in Saxophone, from Louisiana Tech University in 1974.
There he studied Saxophone with James Keene (now
Director of Bands/Professor of Music at the University
of Illinois) and Doug Graham (now Professor of
Wood winds at University of South Carolina). He studied
composition with Dr. Dick Goodwin, noted band arranger/composer at the University of South Carolina.

Paul currently performs on all standard saxophones,
conducts clinics for student groups, and performs
regularly with the Bayou Saxophone Ensemble. He has
composed or arranged more than a hundred works for
Saxophone Quartet or Ensemble. Paul is also the long-time
Clinician for Runyon Mouthpieces.

For the last few years Paul has been a featured
columnist on Sax On The Web. www.saxontheweb.net

STEVE GOODSON
<http://www.saxgourmet.com> www.saxgourmet.com



I think that it is only proper to disclaim the fact that you are a compensated Unison endorser the next time you favorably review these horns.

Moving on now..... what I find to be wholly unconscionable is that Unison's US Marketing VP Mr. Goodson can admit that they've taken more orders than current production can meet, yet they continue to take deposits and promote these horns at every show that they can. My advice to anyone thinking of plunking down a grand for a deposit on one of these horns would simply be Don't Do It. To anyone that has a deposit sitting in someone elses bank account, Get It Back. If these horns are worth half the hype, then they'll be around for a long time. Wait for them. Try one, and if you like it, buy that very horn you've tried and have in your hands.

[StevenW]

I don't speak for Unison, I am just another customer.


Not exactly Mr. C.......
I draw your attention to the following, posted last month by Mr. Goodson on a Yahoo site where he has continued to solicit business:

From: STEVE GOODSON <selmervi@b...>
Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 2:22pm
Subject: Paul Coats and Unison


I am pleased to announce that Paul Coats has joined the Unison Saxophone team as our latest Endorsing Artist.
.................
STEVE GOODSON
<http://www.saxgourmet.com> www.saxgourmet.com



I think that it is only proper to disclaim the fact that you are a compensated Unison endorser the next time you favorably review these horns.

Goodson further clarified that Paul is UNPAID. His review was also written PRIOR to the SG Model review.

No conspiracy or for that matter any reason to go back and add any disclaimer needed.

Moving on now..... what I find to be wholly unconscionable is that Unison's US Marketing VP Mr. Goodson can admit that they've taken more orders than current production can meet, yet they continue to take deposits and promote these horns at every show that they can. My advice to anyone thinking of plunking down a grand for a deposit on one of these horns would simply be Don't Do It. To anyone that has a deposit sitting in someone elses bank account, Get It Back. If these horns are worth half the hype, then they'll be around for a long time. Wait for them. Try one, and if you like it, buy that very horn you've tried and have in your hands.

This is again reversing things. More Orders HAVE COME IN than expected. Again no Conspiracy.

Deposits are a dealer thing and do not go back to Unison.

I know of at least three dealers who have open orders for Steve Goodson Model horns, and ALL took deposits from their clients BEFORE ordering the horn.

StevenW 8)

[Paul Coats]

"I think that it is only proper to disclaim the fact that you are a compensated Unison endorser the next time you favorably review these horns. "

Grumps, I have not received a single penny for my endorsement. Not even in cash, in a brown paper bag, under the table. (How Billy Vera likes to be paid for gigs... hah)

I don't favorably review anything I don't think is an excellent product. I think Charlie A's gig dust is a great product and should be in every saxophonist's case.

I have said that I have used, examined, played, tested a lot of products. I have not accepted any money for doing so. I have been asked to hype products I thought less than acceptable. I don't do that. I have not solicited anyone to give me free products, I am an adult with a job, and I pay for my equipment.

Oh, wait, Flavoreeds, Vandoren, and a few other companies give me big handfuls of sample reeds at the end of shows--free. They know that I give these away in schools at clinics, which I do. They ask me, do you need more? I give these to kids I know that otherwise could not afford them. That is about it for free stuff.

But no, I am not a paid endorser by Unison. Just for the record.

[StevenW]

Reading over this thread the repeated disinformation posted is doing SOTW a disservice.

Who has been told they can't have their deposit back who has cancelled an order? Please post.

Who has been given a written firm delivery date and Unison has missed it? ("We think your horn is in the next shipment" doesn't count. Show us something contractual).

Who actually played their Steve Goodson Model horn and hated it? (Sending a horn back due to a dispute involving much more than just one horn doesn't count.)

When the horns are in, they are in. What is so hard about that?

All the complaining, armchair quarterbacking, pontificating, won't change that simple fact.

So much of the additional whining sounds like the envy of success - a great horn design and excellent value with an artists name on it.

If you don't like it that Goodson might actually make some money from all this, don't buy one.

I for one liked what I played.

StevenW 8)

[Grumps]

Joining a "team" as an "endorsing artist" would seem to imply more. I didn't use the word "paid", I said compensated. In your post you state that you were not paid money. You also say that you didn't solicit anyone for free products. What you didn't specifically say is that you are in no way compensated for being an endorsing artist or offered anything. Just to be specific, is there truly nothing you get in return other than the joy of playing the horn itself? No title, no stock, no shares, no business referrals, no listing of services, no directory, no advertisement, no trade?

[Paul Coats]

Nothing, nada, zip. They might put my picture on their website. And when I go to Saxgourmet, I get a couple of cups of smooth cold drip coffee. That's free. But no, no title, no stock, no shares, no business referrals, no listing of services (other to say perhaps, "columnist at Sax On The Web"), no nothing else.

Oh, wait a minute! Steve came back from the NAPBIRT convention and he said, "Here, Man, you REALLY need one of these!" And he gave me a GREAT screwdriver. Really fits stuck screws well, and with a big grip so you can really control it. I really like it and it is on my workbench now. I need to find out who makes it, and see if they have other sizes. Does that count? I think he would have given me that screwdriver even if I didn't buy one of his horns.

Grumps, if you come up with a really outstanding music product, and I like it and use it, and I recommend it to others, you can list me as an endorser. And you won't have to pay me either.

[Manny]

stevenW,

From what I read, the problem isnt anything that you have mentioned, the problem is the lack of communication.

Nobody has been told anything because there's a lack of communication.

[Harri Rautiainen]

From what I read, the problem isnt anything that you have mentioned, the problem is the lack of communication.
Nobody has been told anything because there's a lack of communication.

saxor,
you got the point. If I learned anything during my years in business, it was that anytime I hear from the customer, it is good for me (as a seller).
A grievance and angry complaint represents the lowest point in the customer relation. Once I'll be able to address the complaint things start to go better. Once I solve the problem satisfactorily, I'll get a loyal customer who always turns to me first for new business.
Then again, I was not in saxophone business...

[pat]

Thanks, everybody, for your comments.

As I read them I keep remembering posts from late last year, something like "There should be some SG Unison's under the Christmas tree."
If I recall correctly those came from a Unison Dealer.
Hmmm. It is mid August now.

I certainly hope those who have been patiently waiting get their SG Unisons soon, and I hope you find them worth the wait. Please post when you get a chance to blow on yours.

I started this post because I found it odd that only one person who pre-ordered then actually received the horn has posted his comments here.

Best of luck to Unison figuring out how to fill orders. It seems like they would come out with some explanation. They must know dealers are sitting on downpayments. How hard would it be to communicate "We are sorry for the delay, which was caused because of such and such, Thank you for waiting, you can expect blah blah blah. We trust you will find the horn worth the wait," or however they want to word it.

Has such communication happened?

Or does Unison not recognize this as a delay???
Hopes of Christmas being delayed through the end of summer?? Yes I know contractually there were no promised dates to the consumer, but I get the feeling Dealers were lead to believe orders would be filled long ago. Is there a communication problem between Unison and the dealers?

Anyway, best of luck. I hope the horn eventually makes it all worth it.

Thanks again for your candid comments, and I am REALLY looking forward to hearing reviews from actual owners.

[pknight]

Folks, let's not take things out on Paul Coats. I truly admire his contributions to SOTW, and his reveiws of the SG Unison are what still have me believing that this may be an outstanding horn. However, Paul, the possibility that my best chance of actually playing an SG Unison may be to wait for you to get yours, and then spend two days on the road each way to get to New Orleans to play it, is symptomatic of Unison's problems.

On another front, StevenW keeps asking the same questions:

Who has been told they can't have their deposit back who has cancelled an order? Please post.

Who has been given a written firm delivery date and Unison has missed it? ("We think your horn is in the next shipment" doesn't count. Show us something contractual).

Who actually played their Steve Goodson Model horn and hated it? (Sending a horn back due to a dispute involving much more than just one horn doesn't count.)


Who, besides StevenW, is raising these issues? Who has complained about not getting a deposit back? Rather, the complaint has been that people have paid deposits (i.e., they have entered the saxophone financing business) and Steve Goodson will not return their email and phone messages. (Well, actually see the message in this thread from David B, an SG customer who HAS asked for his deposit back, and has not heard a single word from SG in response. So I guess he hasn't been told that he can't have his deposit back, because SG won't tell him anything!)

Who has said that a firm delivery date has been missed? Rather, the complaints have been that after waiting for months and months, when they try to contact SG about the status of their order, he does not respond to their email or phone messages. (Well, actually David B was promised delivery of his sax, which he was told was in SG's possession, within a two-week time frame that came and went with no delivery. Now, if SG's promise of delivery must be in writing for him to be obligated to honor his word, then he has more serious problems than I ever suspected. Of course, now that delivery has been missed, David B is unable to contact Steve Goodson.)

Who has said that anyone has played an SG Unison and not liked it? Who said this? Give us a name and date, please.

These straw-man arguments continue to miss the issue. Several people on this thread have stated the issue, as have many people on the various other threads regarding the SG Unison. One last time for SteveW's benefit: STEVE GOODSON REFUSES TO COMMUINCATE WITH HIS CUSTOMERS. This has been the problem for months, and it is the one thing that NOBODY here has an explanation for.

Now, for the icing on the cake: Steve Goodson is posting like a madman on the Yahoo saxophone forum mentioned by Grumps. At the time that we were being told about yet another health problem, at the time that his customers here were clamoring for some information about their orders, as the time when Brian (whose claims I cannont dismiss simply because he is "only" one person) is pleading for Steve Goodson to contact him about his refund, at a time when Steve Goodson is mysteriously absent from this forum, he is becoming a major presence on the Yahoo forum.

And yet he can't manage to find the time to pick up the phone or answer his email. StevenW, THIS IS THE ISSUE!

[StevenW]

These straw-man arguments continue to miss the issue. Several people on this thread have stated the issue, as have many people on the various other threads regarding the SG Unison. One last time for SteveW's benefit: STEVE GOODSON REFUSES TO COMMUINCATE WITH HIS CUSTOMERS. This has been the problem for months, and it is the one thing that NOBODY here has an explanation for.

Now, for the icing on the cake: Steve Goodson is posting like a madman on the Yahoo saxophone forum mentioned by Grumps. At the time that we were being told about yet another health problem, at the time that his customers here were clamoring for some information about their orders, as the time when Brian (whose claims I cannont dismiss simply because he is "only" one person) is pleading for Steve Goodson to contact him about his refund, at a time when Steve Goodson is mysteriously absent from this forum, he is becoming a major presence on the Yahoo forum.

And yet he can't manage to find the time to pick up the phone or answer his email. StevenW, THIS IS THE ISSUE!

The message log of the Yahoo Groups forum you are citing shows you as making an inaccurate statement. Steve Goodson posted to that forum ONCE in August (yesterday to be exact) and all the previous posts are July 6th or older. Other than the post about checking your sax on a flight posted yesterday, it has been six weeks - before the WSC and before Goodson took ill - since his last posts there.

You have mistated numerous things - Goodson and Brian HAVE been in contact, indirectly via an agreed third party, and directly. You personally have NO basis to make your claim that they have not.

Goodson has posted he is NOT responding or particpating here. His posted outlined that he is UNWELL.

What is your agenda, specially as you, and Grumps, repeatively cite so called "facts" that are nothing more than internet postings?? Both of you have made repeated claims that are impossible for any of us, as third parties, to have actually access to the full facts.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some stage the sleeping lion of Unison Corporate simply looks to people making claims from 2nd and 3rd hand information to make up for the damages the obviously intend to cause with their campaign.

The coordinating other sites lampooning SOTW posters and SOTW go a long ways to adding creedance that it isn't just a misunderstanding, but a campaign to damage Unison, Goodson, SOTW, Coats, and Myself.

Some facts are simple to establish - Goodson is NOT posting here and people are saying they are waiting for the SG Model horns.

The rest is internet stuff that can't be stubstantiated, and we all should be careful drawing too much from sources like that.

StevenW 8)

[Grumps]

Well Mr. C. promotion can count as compensation in my book.... but even if you disagree with that, you'll have to admit that you're not just "another customer". You are on the company team, in the inner circle and are privy to much more than the average customer in regard to these horns.

I've still had no valid response to my second concern; why there continues to be an aggressive push for orders and deposits when it is admitted that production continues to lag far behind previous orders. I can see why you would want to be considered just another customer when it comes to this question.


p.s. I greatly appreciate Mr. C's past contributions to SOTW

[morgan]

Steve Goodson is posting like a madman on the Yahoo saxophone forum

Perhaps I'm not using that forum correctly? I only find a total of two postings by SG since July 1.

[pknight]

The message log of the Yahoo Groups forum you are citing shows you as making an inaccurate statement. Steve Goodson posted to that forum ONCE in August (yesterday to be exact) and all the previous posts are July 6th or older. Other than the post about checking your sax on a flight posted yesterday, it has been six weeks - before the WSC and before Goodson took ill - since his last posts there.


Try again. Search for Steve Goodson. I found 6 posts between the dates you mention, one in August two in July and three in June, all after after June 6.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saxamaphone/

We have your word about the unstated "facts" regarding Brian's case. What is YOUR basis for these "facts"?

The notion that there is some sort of campaign against Steve Goodson is laughable. And your threats about the "sleeping lion" must be a joke. Aside from checking the Yahoo site and noting Goodson's posts, I have not logged into any sax site aside from this one in months. I have never posted on another sax site in my life. I think that it would be hard for the cooridnators of the conspiracy to recruit me.

What is my agenda? Well, like many people here I sat through a flood of hype about these horns. I heard Steve Goodson go on and on about how there was no other sax manufactaurer in the world more open and forthcoming with information about its products than Unison. I saw testimonials from people that had me believing that Steve Goodson was the most brilliant sax player, repair tech, and then designer, to ever walk the face of the earth.

I then saw Steve Goodson dismiss, in a condescending manner, anyone who dared to raise any questions or critisims about his horns. I saw the FOS (Friends of Steve) jump down the throats of people who raised questions. I saw Steve Goodson use SOTW to hawk his products and services throughout the forum.

However, the only issue that I have been emphasizing is his lack of customer service, specifically his tendency to ignore complaints. This is not something that I am making up. It is something that has been bouncing around for six years. There are just too many people who have made similar claims for this to be a fantasy, as you suggest. However, it is your right to dismiss these claims because they are just "internet stuff." However, please note that the same can be said for your statements.

Steve Goodson failed to address this issue in his "farewell," although it was clearly the major concern of the posters. That he did not address it is illuminating. You cannot help resolve this issue yourself, but it is interesting that you refuse to even acknowledge that it might be a problem.

My agenda is that anyone coming here not just see the glowing reports about the Goodson horns (which, BTW, I still believe, in the absence of evidence to the contrary and because I believe Paul Coats), but get both sides of the story.

Finally, I have no basis for judging Steve Goodson's health claims. I am not about to say that these are not accurate. I do hope, however, that he is following his physician's advice in all matters, since it was health problems that were offered as the reason for service delays/problems last year, and as far back as 1998. He needs to take care of himself.

Unlike Steve Goodson, I am not going to leave the SOTW forum, but I am going to stop posting on this topic. Really, this time. If people want to stick their heads in the sand, I say let them.

[pknight]

Morgan,

My apologies to you and StevenW. I was originally looking for posts during the time in which Steve Goodson was not posting here, which was from May until this week. He was quite active during that time, but as you and StevenW point out, not so much during July. I had overlooked the the July time frame that was specified, and was looking for posts since June.

My mistake. Mea culpa. So sorry. All my fault.

[Paul Coats]

Grumps said: "Well Mr. C. promotion can count as compensation in my book.... but even if you disagree with that, you'll have to admit that you're not just "another customer". You are on the company team, in the inner circle and are privy to much more than the average customer in regard to these horns."

1. I wish you would instruct me on how I might turn whatever "promotion" into money in my pocket, as I am unable to figure that out.

2. Yes. I am also privy to information about other companies and products, too. I have tested products, written reports, done "troubleshooting", for several companies. I know people at most of the major manufacturers of instruments and accessories. I often tell people, "No, I don't know everything about the saxophone, but I would bet you I know the guy who knows what you need to know."

I was asked what was what about all this, and I reported things I saw with my own eyes, my own experiences, and now you call my honesty and motives into question.

You further commented: "I've still had no valid response to my second concern; why there continues to be an aggressive push for orders and deposits when it is admitted that production continues to lag far behind previous orders. I can see why you would want to be considered just another customer when it comes to this question."

I don't see any evidence of "an agressive push" for orders and deposits. I do see people lined up with cash in hand wanting to place orders. No one has forced them to do so. Also I seem to remember reading a statement in one of the threads here on SOTW by Steve Goodson to the effect that people who have paid deposits and ordered the instruments will have those orders filled first.

I repeat, Grumps, I have not received, nor expect to receive, money, compensation, promotion, stock, or anything else you listed from Unison.

[Mike Ruhl]

blah blah blah...what's the point of this little pissing contest?

[Paul Coats]

You are correct, Mike. Thank you. I will comment no further on this subject.

[alinkletter]

Does any one else find it kind of funny that known associates, Paul C. and StevenW, who it would seem are trying to gang up on others here, are trying to suggest that clearly unassociated persons are conspiratorially motivated?

I find that really, really ironic, personally.

Paul, you boasted a little while ago about how you did not put down a deposit, but rather paid the price in full, in advance, in order to suggest that others who have put down deposits, and who are worried, are unreasonably anxious.

Let me ask an obvious question, to which I'm sure you know the answer, Paul: How much in excess of the average customer's deposit was the amount of your full purchase? If you paid more than $1500 (the publicized wholesale price, I believe) for your horn - minus the extra neck addition - I will be very seriously surprised. I would in fact predict that you paid a price for the horn significantly lower than that.

You don't seem to be the kind of man who can tell a bald-faced lie, when there is no denying that is what it is. So tell us how much you paid for your horn, and that you are an endorser without monetary compensation, in the price of your horn. I want to be able to take you at your word, and I am willing to.

[Claus]

Calm down, everyone.

This thread has nothing more to do with exchanging views about saxophones or personal experiences with dealers.

This is becoming increasingly personal with wild accusations being thrown around. I find Stevens conspiracy theory just as ridiculous as accusing Paul C. of lying. Unless anybody has any tangible evidence for any of these assertions you better keep them to yourselves.

Apart from that it seems that nothing really new can be added at this point so perhaps we all better let this matter rest for a while and remember that we are here to help each other as fellow musicians.

[Brian]

A simple clarification to StevenW 's mistaken information ...

Yes, I have been in contact with Mr. Goodson recently through a third party. But there has been no direct communication as StevenW claims to have knowledge of.

Part of this may be due to Mr. Goodson's health issues, and I believe they are real.

I am optimisticly hopeful of an iminent resolve and will not leave any hanging threads if that happens, but let everyone know publicly.

[Grumps]

1. I wish you would instruct me on how I might turn whatever "promotion" into money in my pocket, as I am unable to figure that out.

Even Mr. Goodson's Yahoo post promoted you, your abilities and your band. That sort of promotion leads to notoriety, referrals, gigs, jobs and/or educational/instructional opportunities, and as I said, is a form of compensation. Never did I call you a liar. I only disclosed known facts and my take upon them after you referred to yourself as "just another customer".


I do see people lined up with cash in hand wanting to place orders. No one has forced them to do so.

And how does that make you feel knowing that such a backlog exists and orders taken last fall remain unfulfilled? So far we've had three testimonials regarding delivered horns. Two were unsatisfactory. Harbingers of worse to come? Together with the customer service issues, I believe so. As to nobody forcing these folks to spend their money, well they certainly were encouraged to do so right here on this forum; an effort you continue to this very day.

[Stacey]

1. I wish you would instruct me on how I might turn whatever "promotion" into money in my pocket, as I am unable to figure that out.

Even Mr. Goodson's Yahoo post promoted you, your abilities and your band. That sort of promotion leads to notoriety, referrals, gigs, jobs and/or educational/instructional opportunities, and as I said, is a form of compensation. Never did I call you a liar. I only disclosed known facts and my take upon them after you referred to yourself as "just another customer".

I'm confident that we've established that Paul Coats is, indeed, a Unison Endorsing Artist. In fact, we've also established that Mr. Coats is getting precious little for his endorsement, although he might in theory become a rich man from follow-on work resulting from notoriety gained from Steve Goodson's praise and Unison's publicity. I have no doubt that legally these things qualify as compensation.

Now that we've clarified these dirty little secrets, I find that my horn's ETA is... well, no different than before. I also find that my opinion of Mr. Coats is... well, totally unchanged. Well, I AM a little disappointed that he has shattered any remaining illusions I might be harboring that saxophonists could command endorsement deals similar to those enjoyed by third-tier professional athletes.


I do see people lined up with cash in hand wanting to place orders. No one has forced them to do so.

And how does that make you feel knowing that such a backlog exists and orders taken last fall remain unfulfilled? So far we've had three testimonials regarding delivered horns. Two were unsatisfactory. Harbingers of worse to come? Together with the customer service issues, I believe so. As to nobody forcing these folks to spend their money, well they certainly were encouraged to do so right here on this forum; an effort you continue to this very day.


As to "how it makes Paul Coats feel knowing that such a backlog exists and orders taken last fall remain unfulfilled", I can speak only for myself. I don't CARE how it makes Paul feel, and I find it totally irrelevant. How does Michael Jordan feel when there are production or distribution issues with Nike shoes?

One correction - since this thread is titled "What happened to all those SGUnison horns?", and is not tenor-specific, we should note that there have been a whopping TWO people who reported on their horns. Most of us recall FunBun and his tenor, but many have forgotten L1 and his alto. L1 posted a brief positive review, and then apparently went under the knife for spinal surgery, and has not posted since May 25th.

[Grumps]

Stacey,
Ask your dealer if you can have your deposit back. Have some patience and wait till you can test play the actual horn you you can take home with you. Don't be a schmuck.

[StevenW]

Stacey,
Ask your dealer if you can have your deposit back. Have some patience and wait till you can test play the actual horn you you can take home with you. Don't be a schmuck.

Grumpo,

Are you publically attempting to discourage sales of SG Model Saxophones, which could be damaging to the dealer and Unison?

[Hurling Frootmig]

Stacey,
Ask your dealer if you can have your deposit back. Have some patience and wait till you can test play the actual horn you you can take home with you. Don't be a schmuck.

Grumpo,

Are you publically attempting to discourage sales of SG Model Saxophones, which could be damaging to the dealer and Unison?

It seems like he is offering reasonable advice. Try before you buy. Are the first 100 or even 1000 horns off the line going to be more magical than the next 100 or next 1000? Personally, I'd rather wait a little while for all of the new production issues to get ironed out.

[Morry]

Mr. Coats....if we go to see you play somewhere, will you be playing the Unison horns?

[Mike Ruhl]

Grumps: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
Steven W: Yes it is.
Grumps: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
Steven W: No it isn't.
Grumps: It is!
Steven W: It is not.
Grumps: Look, you just contradicted me.
Steven W: I did not.
Grumps: Oh you did!!
Steven W: No, no, no.
Grumps: You did just then.
Steven W: Nonsense!
Grumps: Oh, this is futile!
Steven W: No it isn't.
Grumps: I came here for a good argument.
Steven W: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
Grumps: An argument isn't just contradiction.
Steven W: It can be.
Grumps: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
Steven W: No it isn't.
Grumps: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
Steven W: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Grumps: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
Steven W: Yes it is!
Grumps: No it isn't!
Grumps: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)

Steven W: No it isn't.


What a stupid concept! (with apologies to Python fans everywhere)

[Stacey]

Grumps, I appreciate your advice that I should change my present course of action, and in particular I appreciate the inference that if I do not change my course of action I am a "schmuck".

As it happens, I do have 25 years at the saxophone. I have no doubt that any number of people, possibly including you, can come forward with numbers and achievements that make my 25 years look positively schmucklike. Frankly, I don't care.

I can only hope that seeing me lose my cool, the moderator will move a step closer to locking this little pissing war thread and forcing a different one to spring up in a different place.

I choose to live under the belief that after these years, I am indeed a fully-grown, intelligent man. If I choose to leave a $1000 deposit in the hands of a dealer who is also a dear friend, a friend who has shown time and time again that he will treat me right as a friend and as a businessman, a friend who has indeed played these horns, who speaks very highly of them, and is a far more accomplished saxophone player than I am - th`t hardly seems stupid, irresponsible, or schmucklike.

Rather, if I, who haven't played tenor sax in 15 years, were to wait until my local Unison dealer (who doesn't know me from Adam) happened to have a satin silver tenor with optional kangaroo pads in stock, and then go play test the exact horn I wanted to buy, then I think I could draw two conclusions: 1) I would have a damned long wait, given the configuration I'm looking for, and 2) I wouldn't be able to tell ANYTHING, because it will take weeks for me to get my tenor chops back in order. In cases like this, where it would be almost impossible to get firsthand knowledge of everything I should learn, the most reasonable course of action would seem to be for me to enlist the help of people I trust who ARE in a position to gather a little firsthand knowledge, and accept the fact that many things are going to be subjective surprises that will not surface until I've had a chance to grow into the the horn, in a sense.


For the record: I am not a Unison Endorsing Artist. I am just an ordinary customer. I have nothing to gain except the valuable notoriety that comes from having ones name appear on SOTW. I can not speak for or against these horns personally; neither can I offer any advice to the stupid schmucks out there who may be trying to buy one, except to offer the consolation that you are not alone.

:roll:

[Andrew D]

I do not think anyone is a schmuck for putting hard earned$$ to buy a horn of there choosing, however it would seem to be a little short sighted to buy a horn that you have never played, worse still to put money down on a horn that has not even been made.

Selmer, Kielwerth, Yana & Yam to a degree have a pedigree in saxophone production, but still I would not buy any, without the opportunity to try these horns, take the new ref Alto, I recently played one for a short time, & was quite impressed with the horn for a number of reasons however I have not rang my dealer to make an order, because each horn is different. I do not want to put my dealer in a position of ordering a horn and then tell him I not happy with it, for me it's just not good business practice. It also can lead to other potential problems, Brian's problem being one of them.

BTW A good friend of mine who is a pro & primarily uses selmers did have the opportunity to test-drive and buy a SG unison, and passed on it, the same guy bought a cannonball a a few days later, money was not the issue.

Bottom line is though, people have the right to spend there money as they wish.

[Mike Ruhl]

No they don't.

[Andrew D]

With regard to this subject matter they do!!

[Steve J.]

:roll: :lol: :lol: :roll:

[StevenW]

I think if we are to quote Python, this fits better:

Tourist: Good afternoon.

Shephrd: Eh, 'tis that.

Tourist: You here on holiday?

Shephrd: Nope, I live 'ere.

Tourist: Oh, good for you. Uh...those ARE sheep aren't they?

Shephrd: Yeh.

Tourist: Hmm, thought they were. Only, what are they doing up in the

trees?

Shephrd: A fair question and one that in recent weeks 'as been much on

my mind. It's my considered opinion that they're nestin'.

Tourist: Nesting?

Shephrd: Aye.

Tourist: Like birds?

Shephrd: Exactly. It's my belief that these sheep are laborin' under

the misapprehension that they're birds. Observe their be'avior.

Take for a start the sheeps' tendency to 'op about the field

on their 'ind legs. Now witness their attmpts to fly from

tree to tree. Notice that they do not so much fly as...plummet.



<Baaa baaa... flap flap flap ... whoosh ... thud.>



Tourist: Yes, but why do they think they're birds?

Shephrd: Another fair question. One thing is for sure, the sheep is not

a creature of the air. They have enormous difficulty in the

comparatively simple act of perchin'.

<Baaa baaa... flap flap flap ... whoosh ... thud.>

Trouble is, sheep are very dim. Once they get an idea in their

'eads, there's no shiftin' it.

Tourist: But where did they get the idea?

Shephrd: From Harold. He's that most dangerous of creatures, a clever

sheep. 'e's realized that a sheep's life consists of standin'

around for a few months and then bein' eaten. And that's a

depressing prospect for an ambitious sheep.

Tourist: Well why don't just remove Harold?

Shephrd: Because of the enormous commercial possibilities if 'e succeeds.


StevenW 8)

[retread]

Keep it up, guys! For those of us not taking sides, this is like watching a train wreck... from a safe distance. BTW, the only "wish I'd said that" so far is Steven W's Monty Python routine.

[Bill Mecca]

I think this works too, just replace brontosaurus with SG Unison saxophones (or the "debate" over them)
(as for Anne Elk, her replacement is your choice)

Host: Now, Miss Elk - Anne - you have a new theory about the brontosaurus.
Elk: Could I just say, Chris, for one moment that I have a new theory about
the brontosaurus?
Host: Er... exactly. What is it?
Elk: Where?
Host: No, no, no. What is your theory?
Elk: Oh, what is my theory?
Host: Yes.
Elk: Oh what is my theory, that it is. Yes, well you may well ask, what is my
theory.
Host: (slightly impatient) I am asking.
Elk: And well you may. Yes my word you may well ask what it is, this theory
of mine. Well, this theory that I have--that is to say, which is mine--
...is mine.
Host: (more impatient) I know it's yours. What is it?
Elk: Where? Oh, what is my theory?
Host: Yes!
Elk: Oh, my theory that I have follows the lines I am about to relate.
(Coughs) Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem.
Host: Oh God.
Elk: Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem.
Ahem. Ahem. [Impatient noises from Host] The Theory, by A. Elk. That's
A for Anne, it's not by a elk.
Host: Right....
Elk: This theory which belongs to me is as follows. Ahem. Ahem. This is how
it goes. Ahem. The next thing that I am about to say is my theory.
Ahem. Ready?
(Host moans)
Elk: The Theory by A. Elk brackets Miss brackets. My theory is along the
following lines.
Host: Oh God.
Elk: All brontosauruses are thin at one end, much MUCH thicker in the middle,
and then thin again at the far end. That is the theory that I have and
which is mine, and what it is too.
Host: That's it, is it?
Elk: Right, Chris.
Host: Well, Anne, this theory of yours seems to have hit the nail on the head.
Elk: And it's mine.
Host: (ironical) Thank you for coming along to the studio.
Elk: My pleasure, Chris.
Host: Er...Britain's newest wasp farm...
Elk: It's been a lot of fun.
Host: ...opened last week...
Elk: Saying what my theory is.
Host: Yes, thank you.
Elk: And whose it is.
Host: Yes. ...opened last week...
Elk: I have another theory.
Host: Not today, thank you.
Elk: My theory number two, which is the second theory that I have. Ahem!
This theory...
Host: Oh look...shut up!
Elk: ...is what I am about to say...
Host: Oh please shut up!

[saxduck]

Paul C - be happy. We love you. Don't let others steal your joy. It is your joy, not theirs and only you can let them have it.

I didn't intend to offend you. I don't give a flying flock about the others.

Live long and prosper!

SaxDuck

[Grumps]

Meruhl,
I appreciate the good humor, but I no longer respond to the postings of the individual you paired me with for reasons stated in another one of these beauties. In this thread perhaps you should have paired me with Mr. C. instead. Now pay attention or you might be mistaken for one of the guys with the white hankies on their heads.... but perhaps that would be giving you too much credit.

[Mike Ruhl]

I debated whom to have you debating...it was quite a site to see...

[Grumps]

Ahhhh..... a Master Debater you are.

[StevenW]

There are GREAT pythonisms:

Palin: Hello, good evening and welcome to another edition of Blood, Devastation, Death War and Horror, and later on we'll be meeting a man who *does* gardening. But first on the show we've got a man who speaks entirely in anagrams.
Idle: Taht si crreoct.
Palin: Do you enjoy it?
Idle: I stom certainly od. Revy chum so.
Palin: And what's your name?
Idle: Hamrag - Hamrag Yatlerot.
Palin: Well, Graham, nice to have you on the show. Now, where do you come from?
Idle: Bumcreland.
Palin: Cumberland?
Idle: Stah't it sepricely.
Palin: And I believe you're working on an anagram version of Shakespeare?
Idle: Sey, sey - taht si crreoct, er - ta the mnemot I'm wroking on "The Mating of the Wersh".
Palin: "The Mating of the Wersh"? By William Shakespeare?
Idle: Nay, by Malliwi Rapesheake.
Palin: And what else?
Idle: "Two Netlemeng of Verona", "Twelfth Thing","The Chamrent of Venice"....
Palin: Have you done "Hamlet"?
Idle: "Thamle". 'Be ot or bot ne ot, tath is the nestquoi.'
Palin: And what is your next project?
Idle: "Ring Kichard the Thrid".
Palin: I'm sorry?
Idle: 'A shroe! A shroe! My dingkom for a shroe!'
Palin: Ah, Ring Kichard, yes... but surely that's not an anagram, that's a spoonerism.
Idle: If you're going to split hairs, I'm going to **** off. (Exit)

Also even though Jhopewell and D found each other, I don't think it is right in polite company to be pairing off guys.... count me out anyway....

STevenW 8)

[Pink Floyd SaxBass]

Eh, what's the big fuss? So some people put a couple of bucks down for the horn. Big deal. They need to be patient. SG is a great sax player with a cool doo. They'll get their horns.

[raoul duke]

So why don't you send me $5000 - no big deal, it's just a couple of bucks, doo - and if you're patient, I'll send you a brand new tenor that will make you cry!

:roll: What a maroon!

[Fun Bun]

My Goodson tenor didn't cost $5,000. I got it with after a week of telling Goodson I wanted the horn. I had to go on the road to New York and D.C. so I didn't pick up the horn until I got back. Steven held the horn and it was there when I got there.

The price of the horn is worked out between the dealer and buyer. Have you notice that WW&BW don't post price of there Selmers online?

[pknight]

Fun Bun, do you live in New Orleans?

WW&BW don't post their Yamaha, Yani or Keilworth prices either. It has to do with their contracts with these companies, which do not allow them to publish retail prices below a certain level, even though they can sell them for any price they want. I believe that these clauses are intended to protect smaller dealers.

[KEN K]

You guys must have a lot of free time.

[Fun Bun]

I'd rather have free time than stacks of cash. You can always make more money but no one can stretch the day. Everyone gets 24hrs.

[MusicMan]

pknight, looks like Fun Bun lives in Tuscaloosa, AL...

As far as WW&BW advertising prices...I don't think WW&BW is an authorized Selmer, Yani or Yamaha dealer....rather, they are a gray (grey) market dealer.

[Morry]

I don't think that is true about WWBW being gray market dealers of those brands. If they were gray market they would have no reason not to print their prices. It is the agreements with manufacturers that cause the "call for price" in ads.

[StevenW]

I don't think that is true about WWBW being gray market dealers of those brands. If they were gray market they would have no reason not to print their prices. It is the agreements with manufacturers that cause the "call for price" in ads.

Depends on where doesn't it? Some places seem to have teeth in their repect for MSRP rules. UK does (try and buy Levi's below the MSRP - hard to do).

Print ads also often are printed weeks to months ahead, which in a dynamic market could leave them at a pricing disadvantage.

The pricing of Selmers and whatnot by mailorder WWBW sure doesn't have squat to do with Unison though.

StevenW 8)

[pknight]

The WWBW catalogs all explicitly state that they are authorized dealers for everything they sell, from instrumetns to mouthpiece patches.

[David B]

Just thought I would update everybody...I finally received a reply from Steve via e-mail regarding the return of my deposit . As you may or may not know, ( I didn't ), Steve has had some serious medical problems which he relayed to me but i am not disclosing as it is not my place to do so. Anyway, Steve told me he would send a check out asap.

I will post again when I receive the check to let you all know so that some of you can calm down a little and ease up on the guy.

[StevenW]

Just thought I would update everybody...I finally received a reply from Steve via e-mail regarding the return of my deposit . As you may or may not know, ( I didn't ), Steve has had some serious medical problems which he relayed to me but i am not disclosing as it is not my place to do so. Anyway, Steve told me he would send a check out asap.

I will post again when I receive the check to let you all know so that some of you can calm down a little and ease up on the guy.


Steve Goodson isn't well - at least he isn't any worse.

Have heard that Charlie A' should be included in our thoughts and prayers as well, as he too is seriously ailing.

Count your blessing I guess.

StevenW 8)

[Grumps]

Basically, I put a $1000 deposit for a tenor in November, 2002. Still no horn. I spoke to Steve twice last month and he assured me my horn was in and I would have it in a couple weeks or less. One month later still no horn and no word from Steve. Now when I call I get an answering machine that won't let me leave a message.

David,
Did Mr. Goodson offer any explanation as to why he would tell you two months ago that your horn was in when that would appear not to have been the case? The only other logical explanation that I can come up with would be that your horn did come in and was unplayable or unworkable, or perhaps it was sold to another. Illness does not explain this.

[Morry]

Grumps is right. I don't know anything about Mr. G's condition. If he's ill, I wish him the best. However, he was able to go to a convention in Texas ok, with problems like David B's and Brian's still outstanding. When all else fails, people often pull out the illness card. Like I said, if he's ailing, I wish him a speedy recovery. At least, with the illness curtailing his travels, he should be able to spend the time around the shop to resolve some peoples horn concerns.

[StevenW]

Grumps is right. I don't know anything about Mr. G's condition. If he's ill, I wish him the best. However, he was able to go to a convention in Texas ok, with problems like David B's and Brian's still outstanding. When all else fails, people often pull out the illness card. Like I said, if he's ailing, I wish him a speedy recovery. At least, with the illness curtailing his travels, he should be able to spend the time around the shop to resolve some peoples horn concerns.

I'm told he started feeling poorly at the show and hasn't really returned to work.



StevenW 8)

[Phantom 7]

....it's simply wonderful that you're "ALWAYS HERE" to tell us about it; so many of us wouldn't know what to think if not for your unending efforts in the..uh...info department. Your consistent defense of and devotion to the man is definitely noticed. Were I he you would certainly be in line for a large discount. Fair weather friends abound, but the true friends are the ones that stick around when you're really down.

[Morry]

Well, that luckily answers the question of how you can do one thing but be too ill to do the other.

[Phantom 7]

Mr. Weinert will no doubt be only to happy to explain it to us, won't you, Steve? He's so helpful, always there, ready to give us "the real deal". I don't know how you find the time......

[pknight]

Regarding Charlie A, I ordered some Fibracell reeds from him last week. They were shipped the same day, and I received them within a few days. I sincerely hope that Charlie is well, and I am glad that his health does not prevent him from meeting his business obligations. (And Charlie is personally involved in filling every order he takes, as he hand-writes and signs every invoice.)

I too am confused w.r.t. why David is supposed to be getting a refund, when his sax was in SG's hands, ready to ship to him long ago. And, I agree that there seems to be no reasonable explanation for why he had to wait so long for any communication on this matter. If he is happy with simply getting his money back after all this time, then I guess that's the end of his story (if and when he gets the refund), but this offer of a refund raises more questions than it answers.

Regarding health hssues, these claims have been made in the face of customer service lapses since at least 1998. This is not to say that the current second- and third-hand reports of health problems are not accurate, and I join others here in wishing SG good health.

[gary]

I don't believe there is any reason why anyone with a good relationship, business or personal, with Steve should not be able to stand up for him without criticism. We don't always experience the same things, even if there does seem to be an imbalance there.

Steve may very well be sick. It may be recurring which affects his ability in the long run. Or it may be sporadic, even self-inflicted by too much stress of having bitten off much than he can chew. The simple fact is that there is hardly anyone who has been posting in the last month or so that knows the answer first hand.

There are people though, God bless them, that just take on too much and are too disorganized to be able to juggle them all, no matter how well intentioned. I've got a friend like that. The bottom line is, though, the ethic that assumes full responsiblility for one's dealings with paying customers and no amount of rationalization, in the end, can absolve one from that obligation.