Curved Soprano for Classical? [Archive]

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j44breaker

11-25-2006, 07:03 AM

Hi all,

After snooping around the Yanagisawa website, I'm very intrigued by the curved soprano and its usage (not that it matters...or does it) in the classical realm. FWIW, I'm very interested in purchasing one.

1. What's the diff with the curved and straight sop? Hand/arm position? A special, "curvy" feeling when it's around your neck?

2. I'm assuming that the curved sop would fare just as well in the classical realm, but I just haven't seen anyone with major classical cred play on one yet. Any reason why? Is there a stigma attached to curved sops in the classical world? I hope not.

3. From reading the threads on the SC, I can't wait to get my hands on one to give it a try. But I've noticed that some models have the plastic resonators, others have the metal resonators. What would be more preferable for a classical player? I know, I know, this depends on what I want--but what kind of characteristics can I expect with the different resonators?

Thanks all!
J

Merlin

11-25-2006, 11:41 AM

No one with major classical cred?

How about Carina Rascher?

awholley

11-25-2006, 01:21 PM

The Yanagisawa is an excellent choice for classical playing. I think the only reason you don't see anyone with "classical cred" playing one is that they are all tied to Selmer and Yamaha, who don't make curved sopranos. Most (or at least a good many) of the classical guys have endorsement deals.

Gotta agree with Merlin on Ms. Rascher.

There are several classical players on this site, including me, who play Yanagisawa SC-991 or SC-992 horns. It's the best modern soprano I have played -well built, responsive, a nice dark warm sound, and great intonation.

Merlin

11-25-2006, 01:41 PM

SaxyAcoustician

11-25-2006, 01:43 PM

2. I'm assuming that the curved sop would fare just as well in the classical realm, but I just haven't seen anyone with major classical cred play on one yet. Any reason why? Is there a stigma attached to curved sops in the classical world? I hope not.
Michael Stephenson of the New Century Sax Quartet, the greatest classical soprano saxophonist alive heading the finest saxophone quartet in the world.

That notwithstanding, why not take it upon yourself to make the curved soprano a "legit" classical horn? Give it credibility through your own playing.

3. From reading the threads on the SC, I can't wait to get my hands on one to give it a try. But I've noticed that some models have the plastic resonators, others have the metal resonators. What would be more preferable for a classical player? I know, I know, this depends on what I want--but what kind of characteristics can I expect with the different resonators?
You have to be objective and ask yourself if the material of the resonators really makes a difference. Given a horn whose pads are all sealing properly, you as a player make the difference. That point is inarguable. Go with the points that are inarguable. It will save you time in the long run.

awholley

11-25-2006, 05:37 PM

IIRC correctly, Angel has a Yani curvy.

I've played some wonderful curved sops, including the Yanis, Antiguas and P. Mauriats. I love the sound, but the ergonomics would take a bit of getting used to.

YMMV with the ergonomics, as my experience is the opposite of Merlin's.... I hate playing straight soprano because it doesn't stay as still in technical passages, it hurts my thumb supporting it, etc. I have actually seen belt-level support braces for straight soprano that apparently are an attempt to alleviate these issues for those players who are bothered with them.

Dave Dolson

11-25-2006, 05:45 PM

As far as resonators go, I don't think the material matters much. There are o many variables involved when changing resonators that I doubt if anyone can isolate the reso's material as being THE factor in how a horn sounds.

I just had my S992 re-padded with smooth chrome-domed resos and while the horn responds perfectly now, its tone is about the same - certainly not enough difference for me to claim the resos did anything.

I agree with the others - curved or straight shouldn't make any difference regardless of what kind of music you push through it. DAVE

j44breaker

11-25-2006, 11:05 PM

Thanks for the replies.

I didn't realize Carina Rascher played on a curved sop. Good to know. Anyone reading the thread that choose straight Yanagisawa sops over a curved Yanagisawa sops when playing classical? Why?

I understand it's probably preference that people choose curved/straight sops over the other. But are there some measure differences between the two? Hand/arm position? I can't think of anything else because I haven't played on one yet. Can anyone else shed some light on the differences between the two types (preferably Yanagisawa)?

Dave Dolson

11-25-2006, 11:28 PM

J: I don't play classical AT ALL, but I do own curved and straight Yanagisawa sopranos (S992 and SC902). Some folks think curved sops are easier to hold because with a curved neck (I've used curved and straight necks on my SC902), the neck strap works better. I don't use a strap on any soprano, but others do.

The size of a curved sop in its case makes it easier for travel purposes.

In loud, amplified environments, the player can more easily hear the curved horn 'cause the bell comes back toward the player's face.

Out front in the audience, the differences in tone are lost, if there ever WAS a tonal difference (some folks claim there is - I don't think so). Whether or not there is a difference, it dissipates in front of the horns.

Beyond that, differences are subjective - purely personal. DAVE

RickBusarow

11-26-2006, 02:28 AM

Michael Stephenson of the New Century Sax Quartet, the greatest classical soprano saxophonist alive heading the finest saxophone quartet in the world.LOL..

Enough with the weasel words. How do you really feel about Stephenson and the NCSQ? :p

J44breaker, you may be interested to know that most Rascher school players use curved sopranos - usually vintage Bueschers. Sigurd Rascher himself played one, and felt pretty strongly about it. Christine Rall, the current soprano player for the Rascher Quartet, plays one. Wildy Zumwalt plays one, Ronald Caravan plays one, Paul Cohen plays one (at least sometimes), I think Lawrence Gwozdz plays one...

As Dave mentioned, curved sopranos give you a lot more feedback because the bell sends the sound back in your general direction. On the other hand, straight sopranos (and straight altos, Conn-O-Saxes, and straight tenors) send a lot of their sound in whatever direction the bell's pointing. This direction is often towards the floor, at which point the sound is affected (particularly if you're sitting, like in a saxophone quartet) by what surface you're on. All else being equal, from the audience's perspective your soprano sound (particularly as it emanates from the lower stack and bell keys) should be louder when you're on a hard wood floor than when you're on carpet. Similarly, if you're one who likes to play with his horn more parallel to the ground, so that the bell's pointed into the stand, you'll find yourself dealing with the same muting problems that trumpet and trombone players face.

Also noteworthy would be the straight soprano's need for two microphones. This is pretty much irrelevant for a classical player, but I thought I'd mention it. Curved sopranos are no different in this regard than the other curved saxophones.

Like so many, aside from the issues with the direction of sound I think the only real concerns are those of ergonomics. Not only are sopranos so small, but they require smaller movements and our right hand has to support them (really, neckstraps don't help that much) the whole time. If you plan on playing technical stuff on it, it's pretty important that you find the soprano that feels perfect for you. That might be a curvy, and it might not - but chances are if it is a curvy, you're going to have a hard time finding a straight horn that feels nearly as good.

M Exner

11-26-2006, 03:31 AM

In response to hand/arm position. All things being equal. If you prefer using a strap to hold the soprano, I would say go with the curvy because the strap may sometimes get in the way on the straight soprano. If you don't use the strap then it does'nt matter either way.

As far as the sound, the curvy works well in most rooms with performers listening and intonation skills. As the others have said, the sound is more in your face, so it's easier to perceive that feedback from your playing. So the curvy may have the slight edge in that respect. But remember, the sound difference, by most accounts, is unperceptable to listeners at a distance.

Dave mentions the curvy is smaller to carry on the road. A great point. Those saxes can fit just about any where a clarinet case would fit. I use the curvy any time I'm pressed with space in the car and need to get a saxophone in there somewhere. The straight sax case is almost twice as big. Another thing, if you want to practice in a hotel room or bedroom it is easier (by my accounts) to play quieter on the curved sax, if that is a concern to you.

Something that might concern you is the audience perception of the these saxes. The straight sop is probably seen more often yet some will still call it a metal clarinet not thinking it's a sax at all. The curved sax (having that classic sax curve) will certainly be recognized as a sax but will capture the lasting glares thinking how odd and small the sax looks. Some say the curvies are "chick magnets". Go figure! You'll get the questions either way. I think the straight seems to have a more "classical look" (like the straight clarinets, oboes, and English horns) not like the "curvy and comical" saxophones that have largely been kept at bay from the orchestra. Just my perceptions mind you.

I think the straight, for me ,works best with hand and arm position. I seem to have more freedom with fingers being in open space not (as with a curvy at times hitting the bell). The hands seem to be more tightly compact on the curved than they seem to be on the straight. In this case I think the straight would have the edge.

I have no experience with resonators and their tonal differences. I just have those plastic/nylon ones they put in Yamahas and Yanagisawa. I believe resonator materials have a tonal impact though.

When it comes to classical music, it should not make a difference which one you use. Just as the others have said or implied, they both can do it all. I think the Yanagisawa is the best modern "curved" sax out there. Hope this helps in some way. Mike

11-26-2006, 05:35 AM

But I've noticed that some models have the plastic resonators, others have the metal resonators. What would be more preferable for a classical player?

Having personally outfitted two identical sopranos with identical pads - except for one having plastic resos and one having seamless metal domed resos - the two horns sounded the same.

Regarding straight vs. curved for classical, the only thing to be concerned with is underplaying on a curved soprano. Your ears hear more on a curved, so you may tend to play quieter than you would with a straight. So the mix with your fellow musicians or sound system would be slightly different. I find a curved soprano nice with a sax quartet as the sound is more direct to you and your fellow players nearby. Meaning you won't have to play nearly as loudly to hear yourself and for others nearby to hear you.

SaxyAcoustician

11-26-2006, 10:03 PM

LOL..

Enough with the weasel words. How do you really feel about Stephenson and the NCSQ? :p
Hehe. Seriously, since I started playing soprano again in a local saxophone quartet earlier this year I've found myself listening to the NCSQ a lot. I mean A LOT. I first heard the NCSQ 10 years ago and was blown away with them then. But now with 10 more years of playing under my belt and a much more critical ear I am even more blown away by that quartet. I mean I am floored every time I listen. Michael Stephenson absolutely sings on the soprano.

Paul Cohen

11-27-2006, 04:25 AM

In an experiment I carried out some years ago, I was able to document an acoustical difference between straight and curved sopranos. I tested two Buescher sopranos; a straight and curved instrument made within a year of each other, with same mouthpiece, reed, player and recording setup all in one session. Played slow scales into a device that gave a harmonic analysis. We discovered that the curved instrument dampened a set of the mid-level harmonics consistently through the range of the instrument. The result to the ear was a darker, less nasal sound. That acoustical difference, coupled with the psycho-acoustic element of the sound emission to ear, creates a different kind of soprano experience I find preferable for chamber and orchestral playing on soprano than the straight model. ( I also play a wonderful Mark VI soprano and Yamaha 62R for other situations). The ergonomics of the Buescher soprano are more challenging, but the nuance and subtleties in blend, texture and balance have made it worthwhile.

Paul Cohen

SaxyAcoustician

11-27-2006, 01:50 PM

Paul Cohen

11-28-2006, 04:44 AM

Dave Dolson

11-28-2006, 04:26 PM

Paul: Thanks for your input. I found it to be most interesting.

MY problem (and probably 95% of the saxophone community's) is that my ears aren't as perceptive as electronic equipment. I hear no differences when I listen to curved sops played by others (live or recorded), including my own when I play and record them, compared to straight sops of various marques.

They all sound like soprano saxophones to me. I attribute any differences to normal differences among horns, mouthpieces, and players - not to the shape of the instruments.

Your experiments, coming from such a credible source, impressed me. DAVE

Dr G

11-28-2006, 04:52 PM

SaxyAcoustician

11-28-2006, 05:36 PM

I do appreciate the effort and thought process in Cohen's experiment.

My concern about the experiment is that although Paul says that it was conducted in a "small recording studio room that had no ambient sound; very dry", unless there were large acoustic foam wedges at least a foot long placed on the floor, walls and ceiling, the small room will induce acoustic modes. These modes can emphasize or deemphasize energy depending on the frequency (wavelength) and phase, the perception of which is greatly affected by where the ear is (in this case, the mic placement) and the location of the noise source (in this case, where the saxophone is played within the room). Anyone who has studied basic boundary value problems in differential equations knows how important boundaries are to the result.

I would have conducted the experiment outside (no boundaries except for the ground) and if possible placed acoustic wedges on the ground around the horn to absorb and/or scatter downward projected energy. Several mics (calibrated) would be placed in the vicinity of the player. Of course, I would also measure the bore diameters along with other potential variables of the curved and straight horns in question to see whether or not the only difference is in the shape.

It would be interesting to compare a curved Yanagisawa with its straight counterpart. I have a feeling that there are differences.

It's all very interesting. Maybe I should do the experiment and publish a paper on it. :)

Charles Kirk

11-28-2006, 05:45 PM

The test was done in a small recording studio room that had no ambient sound; very dry. I would never record in such a room, but it was appropriate for this experiment. The microphone was placed approx ear high about 3 feet from the instrument as I dimly recollect. We also did this experiment on two Conn sopranos with a similar result.

Paul Cohen

Thanks Paul, very interesting. From my experience of recording I have to say that with the microphone at 3 feet away I would expect some small differences in the sound recorded, as the sound from the bell of the curved soprano will be coming at a different angle to that from the straight and the tube will be perpendicular to the microphone. I agree with Dave Dolson view on this subject, I don't think it makes any difference to the sound whether a soprano is curved or straight. Differences between individual instruments and setups will be greater than differences as a result the instrument being curved or straight.

I am very happy with my SC992 you can get an excellent classical sound out of it.

Dr G

11-28-2006, 06:03 PM

It's all very interesting. Maybe I should do the experiment and publish a paper on it. :)

Why the emphasis on placing foam wedges to mimimize boundary effects? You could perform the experiment while suspended below a hot air balloon (with the burners momentarily off) and be free of boundaries entirely! :D

BTW, I've a friend whom is a licensed hot air balloon pilot that is also an experimental technician - I'm sure he would be happy to co-author your paper.

SaxyAcoustician

11-28-2006, 06:16 PM

Why the emphasis on placing foam wedges to mimimize boundary effects? You could perform the experiment while suspended below a hot air balloon (with the burners momentarily off) and be free of boundaries entirely! :D

BTW, I've a friend whom is a licensed hot air balloon pilot that is also an experimental technician - I'm sure he would be happy to co-author your paper.
I think the paper would be more pictures than text if I did it your way. Without the pics, who would believe me? :sign5:

Dr G

11-28-2006, 06:27 PM

Not a problem, we've got some great vistas here. You'll have to cover the color plate charges, tho'.

SaxyAcoustician

11-28-2006, 06:29 PM

You'll have to cover the color plate charges, tho'.
I'd rather spend that money on a new horn. Hehe.

Paul Cohen

11-29-2006, 02:16 AM

I am sure there is no end to the rigor in which a scientific process can be defined, implemented and measured. And even then there will be differences of opinion as to the validity of the process. I went back to find my notes. Indeed, there were two microphones at different heights and distances. Using two instruments of same make and close in manufacturing date is the closest control one could find to test the shape difference. Did I mention I did the same test (different testing conditions) on two Conn sopranos, similar situation? And a Buescher straight alto and curved alto, similar serial number range (close in manufacture). In all three instances was a discernable, measurable difference in the harmonic spectrum. This is consistent with the empirical data: having someone sensitive to soprano sounds listening to the difference without knowing which horn is being played (same player, mouthpiece, reed, room, etc) can hear an obvious difference. The description may vary from person to person, but the differences are manifest. I once did a wholly subjective test of three Buescher straight sopranos and three Buescher curved sopranos, all from the mid 1920s, ( I have too many horns). I played for two grad students, two undergrads, and one professional. I played 8 times (two duplicates) and asked the listeners to write down their impressions of the tone for each playing (I played the same excerpt each time) and then indicate which horns were straight and curved.
Results: All the descriptions of the straight horns were consistent to themselves of all the listeners and different from the curved horns.
All the descriptions of the curved horns were consistent to themselves of all the listeners and different from the straight horns.
90% of the guesses as to straight or curved were accurate.

In playing as well; we find the curved instruments are demonstrably more resistant to play than their straight counterparts. This is an observation culled from playing (and performing) on dozens of sopranos of both varieties. The comparisons are always made with instruments of similar manufacturer. I am neither a scientist nor acoustician, but surely a resistance difference will make a difference in the sound emission. If the effect of the curvature only affects this resistance (as I suspect, unscientifically) then that is enough to equate shape to tonal change.

Paul Cohen

SaxyAcoustician

11-29-2006, 12:42 PM

In playing as well; we find the curved instruments are demonstrably more resistant to play than their straight counterparts. I am neither a scientist nor acoustician, but surely a resistance difference will make a difference in the sound emission. If the effect of the curvature only affects this resistance (as I suspect, unscientifically) then that is enough to equate shape to tonal change.
Paul, now this I can agree with. :salute:

Dr G

11-29-2006, 03:19 PM

If one changes mouthpieces to accomodate the difference in resistance, would they sound the same?

SaxyAcoustician

11-29-2006, 03:45 PM

If one changes mouthpieces to accomodate the difference in resistance, would they sound the same?
Funny, I was thinking the same thing except not with the mouthpiece but the reed. How would changing the reed affect the measured sound?