"Modern" Vintage Holtons

[honkytone]

Most of the discussion you see on the web about Holton saxes deals with the sax craze-era horns from the teens and twenties. You don't hear much about, nor see very often, Holtons from the late '40s. For the better part of the last year I eyeballed one that Junkdude had for sale, thinking it didn't look half bad. Finally, late in the summer I got tired of seeing it on his site so I threw down the $375 asking price and gave it a try. A couple weeks later I found another of the same model on eBay for even less. It's the model "232" alto. I think the tenor counterpart is "244" or some such. While I've yet to get either of these horns into full playing form (each needs padwork and regulation) I have to say they're built like tanks, play very smoothly, and sound HUGE! They really are comparable in all key respects to the Conn 6M and the "The Martin" Committee horns of the day. Also, at least in the case of the alto, they have right-hand bell keys, which few of the American horns had at the time. If you've gotten accustomed to that feature on modern horns, sometimes the left-hand bell keys of older American horns can get in the way. Pretty spiffy starburst engraving, too. All in all you get a lot of brass for the buck, so keep your eyes peeled. They look like this:

http://home.ca.rr.com/honkytone/holton.jpg

[SAXISMYAXE]

Interesting content and nice pictures, thanks for posting it.

[honkytone]

Thanks. Pics courtesy Dave Hoskins, aka "Junkdude."

[ronkmd]

The first sax I bought, about 6 yrs ago was a Holton Tenor. Model 251 or 254 I think. It really was pretty nice, cost $350 from a local tech. eBayed it off after a yr or so. Intonation was at least acceptable, probably much better than that but I didn't really check back then. Certainly nothing glaringly wrong. Definitely underrated/undervalued horns which get unfairly trash talked.

[musicwriter2001]

modern vintage is quite an oxymoron, but i get your point, and its an interesting perspective. i have holtons from 1902-1925, and they are built like tanks, the bell keys are on the left side though except for my tenor that has split bell keys. the real key is finding a tech that understands what these vintage instruments need. my guy dan at ABI in southern california is a walking encyclopedia, and his apprentice is well educated in the saxual arts. they keep these horns of mine in perfect playing shape. yes there are ergonomic things especially with the rudy weidhoff model i have, yes there are intonation things, but only i know where they are and self correct. the tone however is unreal, really thick silver plating does wonders. they are built like tanks and i think they are underappreciated and under valued, which is good for me because i get a lot of things off of e-bay and have scored really well so far. if i could put up pictures i would, but i cant seem to get that to work, so if anyone wants to see what a great 1902 tenor looks like, or any of them, just e-mail me and i will send them.

[Bernards20040]

Heres what a really nice 1909 gold plated tenor looks like

[musicwriter2001]

Heres what a really nice 1909 gold plated tenor looks like


nice, interesting to see that yours, seven years later than mine does not have all the extra keywork. did they stop that, or get away from it? because the rudy wiedhoff models i have from 1916 or so do have all the extra keywork. here is my tenor.

[Bernards20040]

mine does have the extra key work here is a better photo which shows it clearer
it also has the original mouthpiece, lig and cap (lig and cap also satin gold plate)

[musicwriter2001]

mine does have the extra key work here is a better photo which shows it clearer
it also has the original mouthpiece, lig and cap (lig and cap also satin gold plate)

interesting, i cant tell, do you have the front f key as well? do you use it as a regular player?

[honkytone]

Funny how this thread has turned into being about exactly the horns I meant NOT to discuss: Holtons from the teens and twenties. Illustrates my point, I guess, that those are the ones people have and talk about the most. Oh well...all to the good, I reckon.

[hgrail]

I had a Holton "241" tenor in college that I bought for $400 from my tech (this was a while ago). It played pretty well - but really roared after I had it overhauled a few years later. The sound was always very good - the keywork was OK - but not incredable. The engraving was a starburst like your alto. Good player overall.

[musicwriter2001]

Funny how this thread has turned into being about exactly the horns I meant NOT to discuss: Holtons from the teens and twenties. Illustrates my point, I guess, that those are the ones people have and talk about the most. Oh well...all to the good, I reckon.

sorry, didnt mean to hijack your thread. i actually came upon the ones i have because that was what was available at the time i was looking. i guess if a later holton was available when i was searching for a price i was willing to pay, i would have gotten that. my experience has been that holton is much maligned and i dont see the reason for it.

[hafuch]

Hey all,
To bolster this thread about "Modern" vintage Holtons, I've been playing a silver-plated Holton tenor model 243 (sn 277xxx) from 1955, and I have rarely played its equal.

It has thick, soldered tone holes (not beveled, as on Martins), solid construction, ergonomic keywork (very comfortable and nimble), good intonation, and a sound to die for (BIG and warm). It reminds me of a Conn 10M, but with more complexity of sound.

While I agree with most comments about Holtons from the 20s and 30s, and of course he lack-luster Collegiates, I have never understood why these later Holton saxes (from the 40s and 50s) have been so maligned. Like I said, I have rarely played its equal, and I've compared it side by side with SBAs, SML GM1s, SML-KMs, King Zephyrs (mid 40s), Conn 10Ms (rolled-tone holes), The Martins, and Buescher Big Bs; it still comes out on top, though I must admit that with a few of them, it was tough to tell.

It has a classic American vintage sound (which I prefer to the more focused, "refined" sound of French saxes): robust, boistrous, and hearty. I've never found it wanting, and I've been playing (and gigging) for years.

With this model, it seems Holton made their last effort to produce a first-rate professional saxophone, but being concurrent with the SBA and the advent of the Mark VI, they (like other American sax manufactureres) just couldn't compete with Selmer, who had by this time pretty much cornered the market on professional saxes, and relegated themselves to brasswinds.

While I wouldn't vouch for most Holtons, if you find one you like, by all means give it a go. You'll probably never get much money for it, so don't consider it much of an "investment" purchase. But if you're a player more than a shiner or collector, and you're into it to make music, you may well be surprised.

Hafuch

[hafuch]

Hey all,

To bolster this thread about "Modern" vintage Holtons, I've been playing a silver-plated Holton tenor model 243 (sn 277xxx) from 1955, and I have rarely played its equal.

It has thick, soldered tone holes (not beveled, as on Martins), solid construction, ergonomic keywork (very comfortable and nimble), good intonation, and a sound to die for (BIG and warm). It reminds me of a Conn 10M, but with more complexity of sound.

While I agree with most comments about Holtons from the 20s and 30s, and of course the lack-luster Collegiate models, I have never understood why these later Holton saxes (from the 40s and 50s) have been so maligned. I haven't really cared much though because, as I noted earlier, I have rarely played its equal, and I've compared it side by side with the best of them: SBAs, SML GM1s, SML-KMs, King Zephyrs (mid 40s), Conn 10Ms (rolled-tone holes), The Martins, and Buescher Big Bs. My Holton still comes out on top, though I must admit that with a few of them, it was a toss-up.

It has a classic American vintage voice (distinctly different from the more focused, "refined" sound of French saxes): robust, boistrous, and hearty. I've never found it wanting in any respects, and I've been playing (and gigging) with it for years.

I saw one (lacquer) for sale at Roberto's Woodwinds on 46th St in NYC about a year ago for $2,350 (seemed a bit pricey though), and I'm not inclined to believe Roberto sells junk ... and certainly not at that price (see this thread here http://forum.saxontheweb.net/archive/index.php/t-31531.html).

With these particular models, it seems Holton made their last effort to produce a truly first-rate professional saxophone, but being concurrent with the SBA and the advent of the Mark VI, Holton (like other American sax manufactureres) just couldn't compete with Selmer, who had by this time pretty much cornered the market on professional saxes, and relegated themselves to brasswinds.

While I wouldn't vouch for most Holtons, if you find one you like, by all means give it a go. You'll probably never get much money for it, so don't consider it much of an "investment" purchase. But if you're a player more than a shiner or collector, and you're into it to make music, you may well be pleasantly surprised.

Hafuch

[honkytone]

NOW we're talkin'! Not sure the '40s-'50s Holtons are maligned so much as ignored. In any event they're very substantial horns. I'm looking forward to getting one or both of mine in top shape. Question about the Model 243 tenor: are the bell keys on the left or right-hand side?

[hafuch]

Hi Honkytone,

On my Holton tenor model 243, the bell keys are on the left, as with Conn 10Ms, Bueschers, and Martins of the same era. Also, it seems these later model, more "modern" vintage Holtons shed the quirky, esoteric keywork of earlier models; no odd extra keys on models from the 40s and 50s, it seems.

The left pinky spatula is very similar to, but slightly less rounded and more square than that of your lacquered alto pictured above. It's distinctly different from the otherwise very angular, square pinkey cluster of previous Holton models. I will add, though, that I quite like the G# key: it's of a rather unique lever design I've not seen on any other saxes. It works very nicely, and doesn't stick, although I think this has less to do with the mechanism itself than with the pads. Lastly, the pinky cluster has no low C#-G# key linkage; they're entirely independent keys. This is easily overcome, though, because the pinky spatula is quite comfortable and one can move between these keys with relative ease.

The Holton 243 model does, however, bear the same starburst engraving on the bell as your alto pictured above does, and the wire key guards are the same, save for a slightly less curvy low B-Bb key guard and bell brace on the left side.

If I can, I'll try to post a few pictures.

Hafuch

[hafuch]

Hey Honkytone,

Out of curiosity, what's the serial number (approx.) on that alto anyway? In what year was it manufactured?

Hafuch

[honkytone]

The one pictured is #192XXX and is from 1948 according to the charts out there. My other 243 alto is 176XXX, which would imply mid-1947.

[hafuch]

Interesting. My silver-plated tenor (also model 243) is 277xxx, which places it in 1955. Perhaps it was produced toward the end of the run? Who knows. I sure know it plays like no other.

[musicwriter2001]

well, i just won a 1940 silver baritone. when i get it and have it gone over, hopefully i will be able to join the ranks with the rest of you guys.

[musicwriter2001]

well, got the sax, played it with a yamaha 5star and a bari medium reed. dont like the bari reed, so i am going to go with fibracell, i like those. this thing plays great top to bottom and weighs a TON. much heavier than my zephyr, probably because of the silver plating. its not much to look at right now, but it sounds great, loud, strong and in tune. i am happy with it, and that now makes 4 holtons in silver from 1906 through 1940. all i need is a soprano and i will have at least one of each pitch.

[hafuch]

Just for the record, Honkytone (and others), your alto is the ONLY other Holton that resembles my model 243 tenor. These late model professional Holtons represent a clear and distinct departure from other concurrent and previous Holton models (such as the Collegiate and older models with the funky keywork) in all but the soldered tone holes. I'm just wondering how rare they are. Yours is the first one I have EVER run across that resembles my Holton. It seems few were made. It's a pity. They're fabulous.

Does anyone else out there play or have one of these later model profession Holtons (i.e., not the Collegiates or older models)? Thanks in advance for your input.

Hafuch

[Bernards20040]

I think i read somwhere that the latter ones are Martin stencils Hence the soldered and bevelled tone holes.

[goodsax]

Doug,

I got my first alto in 1950 as a 9th birthday present, a brand new Holton Collegiate that I used for 10 more years throughout junior and senior high schools (3 years of El Rancho HS - Pico Rivera, CA - marching band and 4 years in the concert band) and even kept it a few years after joining the Navy. I won't bore you with how I came to part with it in Yokosuka, Japan while stopped over there in a submarine (USS Segundo) in 1960. I always thought it was a wonderful sax especially compared to the old C-melody I played between my 8th and 9th b'days.

About 2 or 3 weeks ago I discovered another Holton Collegiate on eBay being sold by a pawn shop in TX that looked a lot like my old Holton so I took a chance and bought it for $117 and change, plus shipping. When it arrived, I couldn't believe how well it played. It took me back to my HS days and even impressed my wife with how good it sounded for such a low price. I'm keeping it for the same reason I bought it: nostalgia.

I'd share a couple of photos of my "new" Holton alto, but for some reason IE 7.0 won't let me upload photos to my Clubphoto account on this computer. If interested, I can attach a couple to emails.

Rob

[goodsax]

Here is the eBay listing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230070910806&rd=1&rd=1) showing photos of the Holton I just bought. It's in pretty good shape and plays surprisingly well.

[honkytone]

It ain't mine (I'd never sell it this cheap!:)) but someone here should nab this nice 241 tenor:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180076726132

[honkytone]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180076728078

[goodsax]

Same guy has two "rare" Holton tenors selling at the same time. I agree that these look like excellent deals for someone wanting a vintage quality tenor at a low price. Unfortunately, I just bought a great Vito tenor and now have to unload the horns I'm not playing, not add to the collection by buying more, even when they are as tempting as these are.

[hafuch]

Hey Bernards20040,

Could you tell me where you read that later Holtons were Martin stencils? I'm very curious. Thanks.

By the way, Honkytone, could you tell me how you posted those pictures of your Holton alto? I'd to the same for my Holton 243 tenor if I could only figure out how!

Thanks again.

[honkytone]

The pics are uploaded onto my ISP webspace and then linked by using the image link button on the reply to thread page.

[Bernards20040]

Right here
http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14930&highlight=holton+martin
Bruce Baily would probably know more

[hafuch]

Hi Honkytone and others,

I finally got around to taking a few pictures of my Holton 243 for comparison and just for the sake of documenting what seems to be a fairly rare horn.

As you can see, it has much in common with Honkytone's alto (pictures of his are on p. 1 of this thread), but there are some differences (bell brace, shape of left hand pinky table, bell keys on the left side, no reinforcement plate under the neck, among other things).

Anyway, comments and/or questions are more than welcome.

Hafuch

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/hafuch/Holton%20277xxx/Jan2007tosort002Large.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/hafuch/Holton%20277xxx/Jan2007tosort004Large.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/hafuch/Holton%20277xxx/Jan2007tosort003Large.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/hafuch/Holton%20277xxx/Jan2007tosort005Large.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/hafuch/Holton%20277xxx/Jan2007tosort008Large.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/hafuch/Holton%20277xxx/Jan2007tosort011Large.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/hafuch/Holton%20277xxx/Jan2007tosort010Large.jpg

[hafuch]

Dear Bernards20040 and others,

Just thought I'd post a comment about the Holton possibly being a Martin stencil.

I suppose this could be true, particularly in the way they sound and play, but I'm wondering about the tone holes. They are indeed soldered - without a doubt, but they lack the beveled tone hole of the Martins of the same era. The Holton tone holes are thick (as with Martins), but straight and unbeveled.

This leads me to believe that it may not be a Martin stencil after all, but again, I remain uncertain.

Just more food for thought. Anyway, for those who recently bought those Holton 241s that were for sale on eBay, how do they play? What do you think?

Kind regards,

Hafuch

[honkytone]

Am putting up my Holton 232 altos for sale. Just don't have time to get them into top playing shape:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=57873

[spiderjames]

This just showed up on ebay. Anyone ever seen one or played one? Has a silver neck. that would indicate it was geared for the pro market

http://cgi.ebay.com/tenor-sax-saxophone-Holton-Stratodyne-244-silver-neck_W0QQitemZ180125711179QQihZ008QQcategoryZ16234 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Looks like a well designed horn.

[geauxsax]

OK Holton fans,
We need to assemble some info on the "newer" Holtons--we seem to be doing well on the older ones!:D

Our Holton bretheren from yesteryear have a fairly good start with this thread, so I figure we might as well continue it.

Additionally, these models (the 240 series tenors specifically) seem to garner very good reviews, even factoring in the "Holton avoidance factor" that seems to plaque the horns.

Did bell keys shift side from the 241 to 243?
The LH spatulas on 241 and 243s are noticeably different.
Was there a 240? A 242? A 244?
Does anyone own a 270 series Bari?
What was the Soprano equivalent? Was there one?
What finishes did this era of horns come in?
When/what model did Holton stop soldering tone holes on (vice drawing)?
Were the 566 Tenor Collegiates and 576(?) Altos closely related models or not?

Lot's of questions--If you have one of these saxes, tell us about it, and post a pic!

[honkytone]

Did bell keys shift side from the 241 to 243?


The 232 alto is the only Holton I know of from this era that had RH bell keys. Both the 241 and 243 tenors had them on the LH side.

[geauxsax]

The 232 alto is the only Holton I know of from this era that had RH bell keys. Both the 241 and 243 tenors had them on the LH side.

Thanks for the info Honkeytone! Do you still have any of your Holtons, or did you sell them? (I noticed the older FS ad for your altos)

[geauxsax]

OK--I answered one of my questions already.

Apparently there was a 244 Tenor, as well as a 234 Alto (referred to as "Stratodynes"), as seen in this 1950 ad:
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holton2441950ad.jpg

Also, here's an ad for a 231 alto from 1942 (posted before, but here again for reference):
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holton2311942ad.jpg

[geauxsax]

Some nice pics of a 241 Tenor, from French ebay, to compare and contrast with others--especially Hafuch's 243 (post #32 above).

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2411.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2412.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2413.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2414.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2415.jpg

[honkytone]

Thanks for the info Honkeytone! Do you still have any of your Holtons, or did you sell them? (I noticed the older FS ad for your altos)

Sold the two 232 altos to a fellow member here in Los Angeles day before yesterday.

[soybean]

OK--I answered one of my questions already.

Apparently there was a 244 Tenor, as well as a 234 Alto (referred to as "Stratodynes")Well, you answered one of my questions too. I always wondered about the Stratodyne. Now we know it and the model 244 are the same thing. Your photo looks like right-hand bell keys on the alto and left on the tenor. Anybody played a Stratodyne? We could call it a "Strat" for short. No one has ever used that nick-name for a musical instrument.;)

By the way, Ross Gorman played with the Paul Whiteman orchestra and performed the Rhapsody in Blue with George Gershwin. (pretty good credentials.)

OK Holton fans,
We need to assemble some info on the "newer" Holtons--we seem to be doing well on the older ones!If no one has an objection, can we define Modern Vintage Holtons as ones made after World War II, i.e. after 1946?

[soybean]

I just realized Saxpics has some photos of a Stratodyne alto. Is it okay to post photos here from Saxpics, or are they copyright?

[soybean]

8-)Warning: off topic

Geauxsax, I typed Cities Service Band into Google, and guess what? It was a famous band who had a TV series and made records circa 1949-1956. There is more information on this tuba website:http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11427

Note that Joe Allard was in the clarinet section!

[geauxsax]

8-)Warning: off topic

Geauxsax, I typed Cities Service Band into Google, and guess what? It was a famous band who had a TV series and made records circa 1949-1956. There is more information on this tuba website:http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11427

Note that Joe Allard was in the clarinet section!

Cool info!

[geauxsax]

If no one has an objection, can we define Modern Vintage Holtons as ones made after World War II, i.e. after 1946?

Soybean,
I think of "Modern Vintage" Holtons as beginning with the 230/240/270 series--not sure exactly when they came out though, except that we have the 231 ad from 1942 on the previous page.

[geauxsax]

Little 230 alto from ebay, serial number 139595.
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton230alto1.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton230alto2.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton230alto3.jpg

[geauxsax]

OK--here' a strange one, at least to me: somebody mentioned these on an earlier thread, but this is (by description) a Japanese-made Holton. I'm not very up to speed on Japanese saxes, but with that distinctive keyguard, I figure somebody should be able to ID the manufacturer fairly easily. I wish there were more pictures, but no luck.

Serial number: 032959
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/HoltonJapan.jpg

[bruce bailey]

It's a Yamaha and the same on that they labeled Vito. In some cities where there was a big Leblanc (Vito) dealer, they would sell Holtons or Martins that were the same horn but kept the exclusive Vito name with the large dealer.

[soybean]

Yes, that sure looks like a Yamaha keyguard. I have a photo of another Japanese Holton around here that i will post if i can find it.

[geauxsax]

OK Holton fans,
We need to assemble some info on the "newer" Holtons--we seem to be doing well on the older ones!:D

Our Holton bretheren from yesteryear have a fairly good start with this thread, so I figure we might as well continue it.

Additionally, these models (the 240 series tenors specifically) seem to garner very good reviews, even factoring in the "Holton avoidance factor" that seems to plaque the horns.

Did bell keys shift side from the 241 to 243?
The LH spatulas on 241 and 243s are noticeably different.
Was there a 240? A 242? A 244?
Does anyone own a 270 series Bari?
What was the Soprano equivalent? Was there one?
What finishes did this era of horns come in?
When/what model did Holton stop soldering tone holes on (vice drawing)?
Were the 566 Tenor Collegiates and 576(?) Altos closely related models or not?

Lot's of questions--If you have one of these saxes, tell us about it, and post a pic!

Got a partial answer on tone holes (soldered vs drawn): My new Holton 232s (Thanks Soybean!) altos have drawn holes.

Holton sure didn't skimp on metal though: those little altos are very heavily built. The ergos, while not modern, are a huge improvement over the earlier horns too. They have the LH pinky cluster like Hafuch's tenor (above). I'll post some pics later. sn's 176201 and 192072.

[geauxsax]

Riddle me this Holton fans:

How about this tenor from ebay? I'm not questioing the auction at all--seems fine to me. I'm just curious about the model and how it fits with other models. It says it is a 243--and appears to back it up with a pic of the sn (model # above sn--maybe it says 213 instead though???). But the sn is significantly earlier than my 232 altos (would think their sn's would be contemporary with 242 tenors, right?) The horn (but not neck) looks like a 24X eries horn, but the engraving style and the neck are more akin to earlier models like Revelations. The LH pinky cluster doesn't look like the 243 pics I've seen either.:?

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2431.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2432.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2436.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2438.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton243sn.jpg

[soybean]

It's got the right hand G# trill, so seems like an earlier horn.

[geauxsax]

OK--more "Modern" Vintage Holtons!

two 233 altos from ebay:
sn 263754 for the shinier one (with blue padsaver)
sn 277701

Excerpt from sn 263754 ebay ad: "This Holton saxophophone was purchased for $290.00 on June 11, 1955. (I have the original receipt!) It was used briefly by four members in my family for high school band. Each of us used it 2 years or less (some dropped out of band, some went to other instruments. ) . . ."

Question: Why did Holton revert to LH bell keys after having RH bell keys on the 232 models? 232 mechanisms work well enough. Maybe they were overly complex for adjustments or manufacture?:?
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/233sn263754a.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/233sn263754b.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/233sn263754c.jpghttp://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/233sn263754d.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/233sn277701a.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/233sn277701b.jpg

[geauxsax]

And a beauty of a Bari (Holton 274 from ebay as well).
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/274Bari1.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/274Bari2.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/274Bari4.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/275Bari3.jpg

[jazzbug1]

I have just purchased a 1930s Holton tenor with a neck that features a double brace octave key similar to Selmer. It also has the left hand bell keys, but with the relatively rare ornate bracework over the keys. It should arrive within a week. I will fully restore it and give a comparison test with the Rudy Wiedoeft tenor I have played for a few months. I have found the Rudy tenor to have a brilliant upper octave. It is so bright that it sounds very much like my Rudy C Melody. I expect this newer horn to sound like the next generation of tenors, which I will find useful for more modern (swing era--bop style.

[geauxsax]

I have just purchased a 1930s Holton tenor with a neck that features a double brace octave key similar to Selmer. It also has the left hand bell keys, but with the relatively rare ornate bracework over the keys. It should arrive within a week. I will fully restore it and give a comparison test with the Rudy Wiedoeft tenor I have played for a few months. I have found the Rudy tenor to have a brilliant upper octave. It is so bright that it sounds very much like my Rudy C Melody. I expect this newer horn to sound like the next generation of tenors, which I will find useful for more modern (swing era--bop style.


Jazzbug,
I was your competition on that one! I just saw it four hours out, listed as an
alto. I can't believe I missed it until then. I compared it to 241s and 243s I have pics of--it sure doesn't seem like one of those from the pics. What it does bear a strong resemblence to is the Resotone alto from another thread. Could it be a Resotone Tenor in brass? The Resotone alto is a model "204", no? Anyway--great score, and I can't wait to get your take on it.:)

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/ResoTenor1.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/ResoTenor2.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/ResoTenor3.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/ResoTenor4.jpg

[LaPorte]

[QUOTE=geauxsax;1093195]

"...What it does bear a strong resemblence to is the Resotone alto from another thread. Could it be a Resotone Tenor in brass? The Resotone alto is a model "204", no? Anyway--great score, and I can't wait to get your take on it.:)"

I've decided not to compete with my american friends:D
I agree, this seems to be a RESOTONE tenor which is really surprising as the ad refers to an alto only. Jazzbug will be able to tell us soon, as 'RESOTONE' is written on the tone ring (backside of the bell rim). Here is the logo written on a trumpet:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Holton%20Resotone/ResoTone_Tr_121511.jpg

Felix

[jazzbug1]

If this horn sets up like I hope, it will see considerable action in jazz performances between Buffalo and Toronto. I have been looking for a tenor in this style for quite a while. If it sounds close to my Wiedoeft, then I will put it back on EBay, re-padded and de-dented, as I don't need two 1920s sounding tenors. What I like about the Wiedoeft is the lack of "tubbiness" which I find in most 1920s tenors. The big band era (starting around 1933) called for an aggressive tenor with lots of projection, hence the changes by all instrument makers at this time. I loved my Conn 10M, but the top end did not flow out like the Wiedoeft, which requires little embrochure change. I'm hoping this Holton will have the deep silky bottom of the 10M, but retain the Holton brilliance in the top. If it does, I'll get plastic surgery and become a teenage idol.

[geauxsax]

And a beauty of a Bari (Holton 274 from ebay as well).
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/274Bari1.jpg

Sold for US $840.01 on 17 MAR 09.

With ad details of: "Frank Holton baritone saxophone original silver finish. 500 dollar overhaul new pads cork and felts. I bought it from an estate sale. Included is a $200 Protec case. I do not play any more. Excellent intonation, big strong sound. US only."

. . .this thing was a steal. Wish I could have sprung for this one.

[goodsax]

With ad details of: "Frank Holton baritone saxophone original silver finish. 500 dollar overhaul new pads cork and felts. I bought it from an estate sale. Included is a $200 Protec case. I do not play any more. Excellent intonation, big strong sound. US only."

. . .this thing was a steal. Wish I could have sprung for this one.
But, the seller had only 2 transactions and that's one of my red flags when shopping on eBay. Hopefully, the winning bidder will not have any issues.

[mad-dog]

Definitely a steal, good enough that I overcame my inhibitions about the newbie seller, and was willing to pay quite a bit more for it than I did. I had 2 feedbacks once, too. If this thing plays anywhere near as well as my alto, it will be a force to be reckoned with. Anybody wanna buy one of these in rough and only partially playable (but salvageable) shape? Let me know. For that matter, anybody wants to buy a 241 tenor, let me know. I'll post them in the marketplace one of these days, but I'm thinking the most likely buyer is one of the dozen or so of us that know how good these horns are.

I'll give you guys a full report when I get the horn.

Dave

[goodsax]

I wish you well and look forward to your report.

[jazzbug1]

I once had a Holton baritone from the mid-1920s. It was OK, but the toneholes were poorly soldered and this was a continual problem which must have been from a bad solder batch, as Holton toneholes are silver soldered for a very strong joint ,so I sold it. It plyed with a nice mellow deep tone. I bought a Conn 'Chu Berry", which was what Gerry Mulligan preferred. However, this beautiful silver 1930s model that Mad Dog bought is the next generation of Holtons. I would love to do a comparison between the Chu and the Holton. I thought about bidding, but bought that nice tenor instead. If you ever chance into a late 20s Conn, please try a comparison. My very best to you, Mr. Dog and I'm sure your classic bari will have a great career.

[geauxsax]

Definitely a steal, good enough that I overcame my inhibitions about the newbie seller, and was willing to pay quite a bit more for it than I did. I had 2 feedbacks once, too. If this thing plays anywhere near as well as my alto, it will be a force to be reckoned with. Anybody wanna buy one of these in rough and only partially playable (but salvageable) shape? Let me know. For that matter, anybody wants to buy a 241 tenor, let me know. I'll post them in the marketplace one of these days, but I'm thinking the most likely buyer is one of the dozen or so of us that know how good these horns are.

I'll give you guys a full report when I get the horn.

Dave

Very cool--I was hoping a SOTWer got it! Dave--yes, by all means
give us a run down on the big bari when you get it. The 241 is tempting too, but I'm broke for a while.:|

[mad-dog]

I have a friend with a '27 New Wonder bari, and I will certainly be able to do a side-by-side comparison. It was a former school horn and looks like it was rid hard and put away wet, but it sounds great.

[mad-dog]

Well, the bari was waiting for me when I got home tonight, and it is every bit as advertised. My faith in the fundamental decency of humanity is reinforced.

I'm really a trumpet player, and most of my sax playing has been on alto and soprano, so loosening my embouchure sufficiently to get a reliable low register is going to take a bit of getting used to, but wow, this thing is capable of a mighty rumble. I'll try to get a picture of it with its little brothers up this week.

Dave

[jazzbug1]

I've been thinking of doing a You Tube demonstration of all my Holton saxophones, as I have gotten good responses to my demo of the Rudy C Melody, under "jazzbug1". Good luck with the baritone. I may bid on the next one in silver.

[geauxsax]

Some pics of one of my two Holton 232 altos. It seems like a pretty unique little horn. Also, I could swear that the tone holes are drawn. They aren't really thick like those on my older Revelation/Elkhorn Tenor, and have no visible seam. I wonder, as Jazzbug's 244 Tenor has soldered toneholes. Shoot, maybe I just can't tell the difference. They look drawn to me though.:?

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Mar09016.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Mar09013.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Mar09019.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Mar09015.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Mar09020.jpg

[jazzbug1]

I notice the bell keys are on the right side. I haven't seen Holtons with the keys on this side until the later 1950s.

[geauxsax]

I notice the bell keys are on the right side. I haven't seen Holtons with the keys on this side until the later 1950s.

From what I have gathered, following the 231s, the 232s moved the keys to the RH side. The 233s then moved them back to the LH side again. Not sure what Holton was up to. Even the bell brace on the LH side just looks like a 231 keyguard flipped around. The RH key mechanism on the 232s seems OK to me. I wonder about 242s--what side were their keys on? I've never seen one.

[rossbu]

I picked up a 241 series, original lacquer, made in 1950 tenor from a local antique dealer - it needs some pads, but obviously has some fine potential. I have it posted for sale, but now think that I'll fix it up and play it - might be just what I've been looking for, considering that I wanted a Buescher or Conn tenor for that "dark buttery" sound - borrowed that expression from another SOTW member!

[jazzbug1]

The Bueschers I have played have a great top end, The Conns have a great bottom. This is due to bore size and design. My 1939 Holton 244 seems to be a good comprimise between the two, much like the modern Keilworth. I am still working on restoring the Holton, but I think you will be very happy with the Holton 241. Make sure you try some different mouthpieces, as my Rudy model tenor (a generation earlier) was surprisingly fussy about the best mouthpiece. Believe it or not, a cheap Selmer Goldentone, after I had tried a N.Y. Link, a vintage Van Doren, and a Steve Broadus. That's the same situation many players have found with the cheap Rico (designed by Arnold Brilhart) mouthpieces. Sometimes a student mouthpiece can be the best choice for your horn.

[jazzbug1]

Question for the experts: What is the difference between the 244 and 241 tenors. My 244 is #126608, but I see 241s in a similar serial # range. Was Holton making two pro models at the same time?

[geauxsax]

I picked up a 241 series, original lacquer, made in 1950 tenor from a local antique dealer - it needs some pads, but obviously has some fine potential. I have it posted for sale, but now think that I'll fix it up and play it - might be just what I've been looking for, considering that I wanted a Buescher or Conn tenor for that "dark buttery" sound - borrowed that expression from another SOTW member!

very cool!
:)

[geauxsax]

Question for the experts: What is the difference between the 244 and 241 tenors. My 244 is #126608, but I see 241s in a similar serial # range. Was Holton making two pro models at the same time?


Whoa--it never crossed my mind that they could have been produced at the same time. I always thought they were produced sequentially. I'll have to see what I can find. Of course if Buescher could do it with the 400 TH&C and the Aristocrats, why not Holton?

[jazzbug1]

King produced the Super Twenty and the Zephyr concurrently. Martin produced the Commitee model and "The Martin" models concurrently. My 1939 Holton 244 tenor looks exactly like the 204 in the other thread, but it lacks the "Resotone" marks on the lip of the bell. The fancy sculpted keyguards are a work of art.

[geauxsax]

The 204 Resotone altos were sn 122XXX and 123XXX, right in line with the 126XXX of the 244 tenor.

I don't get how all this ties into the 1950 ad that I previously for the 244 and 234 stratodynes though. (page 2 post 39 this thread)

Additionally, the Stratodyne alto on Saxpics has RH bell keys, and looks nothing like Jazzbug's 244, or the two 204 Resotone altos.
http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=5171
(the saxpics Stratodyne alto looks kind of like my 232 altos)

Jazzbug--is there any chance the small "244" stamp could be a "214" instead? That would put it in line with the 204 Resotone alto, in Holton's loose numbering "system". The later 213-marked (in very small numbers) Revelations have fooled me, as they look a lot like "243". Attached is a pic of the "213" tenor that was listed on ebay as a 243 (but obviously wasn't--it was even marked "Revelation" on the bell)
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton243sn.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2438.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2432.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton2431.jpg

[jazzbug1]

It's clearly "244". I notice the "old-fashioned" 1920s bell engraving on the abouve saxophone. Holton certainly mixed things together. Conn did similar mixing in the early 1920s and early 1930s, as they were trasitioning all their line into newer models.

[jazzbug1]

OOPS-- See my correction under the Res-O-Tone section. An extremely careful look shows it to be a "214" which makes it a Res-O-Tone Tenor. That's the smallest number on a horn I've seen and it nearly took an electron microscope to discern the 4 from a 1. I will road test the tenor when it is complete, using a stock mouthpiece and a late 40s design Santy Runyon M.P. I can't wait to do the honking.

[geauxsax]

Terrific-thanks for the info update, 'Bug!:)

[geauxsax]

I picked up a 241 series, original lacquer, made in 1950 tenor from a local antique dealer - it needs some pads, but obviously has some fine potential. I have it posted for sale, but now think that I'll fix it up and play it - might be just what I've been looking for, considering that I wanted a Buescher or Conn tenor for that "dark buttery" sound - borrowed that expression from another SOTW member!


I bought the 241 tenor from Rossbu, and while it does need new pads as mentioned above, it is an absolutely beautiful horn--no dents and terrific original lacquer. Rossbu provided terrific communication throughout the deal, and the horn was packed very well--many thanks Rossbu! I'll be posting pics of the horn shortly. It really reminds me of a RTH 10M I owned briefly.

[rossbu]

My pleasure - while I think that my heart belongs to a P. Mauriat UL tenor, I've always got my eyes out for good vintage horns - SW Florida can be like that!

Enjoy!

[jazzbug1]

Lots of older players retire to Florida and gig into oblivion, leaving many nice horns in closets.

[geauxsax]

My new Holton 241 pics as promised! (some with my older Revelation/Elkhorn tenor and a 232 alto for comparison).
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/221.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/223.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/220.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/228.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/226.jpg

[JayeSF]

Niiice that it ended up in good hands . Looks like the twin sister of mine.

I assume you are gonna get it worked up.

I'd be really interested in your opinion on it, when the time comes...especially in comparison to your Revelation, sound wise.

I know my 2 were pretty darn close in tone...the 241 being a bit edgier...

[geauxsax]

Niiice that it ended up in good hands . Looks like the twin sister of mine.

I assume you are gonna get it worked up.

I'd be really interested in your opinion on it, when the time comes...especially in comparison to your Revelation, sound wise.

I know my 2 were pretty darn close in tone...the 241 being a bit edgier...

Oh yeah--I'll get it worked up--probably new pads at least. If I can avoid an overhaul, I will--it is still a very tight horn. I can't wait to compare it to my Revelation. The ergos are (as one would expect on the newer era horn) significantly better. I will have to wait though to get it fixed up--my Big B tenor is getting finished currently.;)

[geauxsax]

OK Holton fans (you lurking fans too--I know you're out there!:D--another nice 241 just popped up on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Holton-Tenor-Sax-Saxophone-Vintage-Nice-Low-Reserve_W0QQitemZ290318363592QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439852abc8&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7 C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

(not mine, and I don't know the seller--it just caught my attention)

[geauxsax]

OK--now for some pics of what I can gather are the last of the "modern vintage" Holtons--no surprise here: The 566 altos Collegiates and the 577 Tenor Collegiates.

Questions:

Was there a 5XX (588?) series bari?
Can anyone confirm that Holton had switched to drawn tone holes for these?
What was the year range for these?

Anyway, 566 pics first (ebay horns, not mine):
(sn 381211)
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/566381211alto2.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/566381211alto3.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/566381211alto4.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/566381211alto5.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/566381211alto.jpg

also, another 566 in a little rougher shape, sn 281864
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/566271864altosn.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/566271864alto2.jpg

[geauxsax]

And now, the 577 tenor:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/577tenorcollegiate2.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/577tenorcollegiate3.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/577tenorcollegiate7.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/577tenorcollegiate4.jpg

[LaPorte]

Nice photos, geauxsax!

The toneholes look soldered into the body, are they? The change of tonehole manufacture from soldered to drawn toneholes might be later than I thought before. Perhaps together with the change from LH bell keys to RH bell keys?

Felix

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/1950s-241-Holton-Sax-SERIAL-97861-W-ORIGINAL-CASE_W0QQitemZ260413130804QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item3ca1d50834&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

A project horn or parts only?

Felix

[soybean]

OK--now for some pics of what I can gather are the last of the "modern vintage" HoltonsYep, the bell keys went back to the left side. we've discussed this before. It is odd that Holton had right side bell keys earlier and then switched back to the (old fashioned) left side. Could it have something to do with the drawn tone-holes LaPorte asks about? Or perhaps Holton just had some older parts laying around with the tone holes already cut.

[geauxsax]

Guys,
I'm geting ready to assemble as much info about the "modern vintage" Holtons as I can, kind of like LaPorte's serial number project for the older horns.

I have some lingering questions though that I need help with:

Tone Holes: I'm not sure they were ever drawn on any Holton models. I was looking at my 241 tenor and comparing it to my older RW alto and Revelation II tenor. The older horns have obviously soldered holes, with easy to see seams, and they're really thick (like Martins? That's called "soft soldering", right?). Anyway, someone on a King thread was talking about the S20s having soldered tone holes, but not like Martins--not soft soldered I think was what was said. Someone please explain the difference. My 241, and my 232s do have seams at the base of the tone holes, and they look to be kind of soldered, but not like the earlier horns. The tone holes are thinner too, but they definitely have a seam that my Buescher TT with drawn holes does not. Also, in a older Holton thread by SOTWer NYMeyerLansky, the had a 577 tenor that he mentioned had soldered tone holes.

Bell Keys, and what sides that they are on: Other that my 232 altos (and not preceeding 230s and 231s, or following 233s, I've only seen evidence of RH bell keys on the stratodyne 234 model (shown on saxpics http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=5171 , and in the Ross Gorman Holton ad on ebay). Notably, the tenor 244 stratodyne on the ad still has LH bell keys. Barring Yamaha stencils, etc, has anyone seen any other models with RH bell keys?

Model 475 (tenor?): Seen it mentioned a few times. Anyone have info?

So far, I intend to list info for the horns after the 204/214 "Resotone" models and the three digit marked "Revelation IIIs" (213 tenor, 215 Baritones, 201 altos(?), specifically the:
--230, 231, 232, ,233, and 234 "Stratodyne" altos
--241, 243, and 244 "Stratodyne" tenors (anyone seen 240, 242 tenors?)
--270, 274 Baritones (anyone seen 271, 272, 273 Baris?)
--566 "Collegiate" altos (not earlier non 5-series Collegiates though)
--577 "Collegiate" tenors (not earlier non 5-series Collegiates though)
(anyone seen bari 5 series horns---maybe 588???)

I have a date range so far from about 1939 (for some 270 baris and 230 altos) to 1964 (566 alto) for these "Modern Vintage" Holtons.
5 series horns seem to have been built alongside the 2 series horns too in the 50's. What about the 60s?

[soybean]

I'm getting ready to assemble as much info about the "modern vintage" Holtons as I can, kind of like LaPorte's serial number project for the older horns. Oh goodie! It's a great idea. Let's help him out folks.

[JayeSF]

Can I interrupt to ask a really stoopid Q ? (you can answer or just direct me to where the answer is). How do you tell the diff between drawn and soldered holes ?

[jazzbug1]

Look for a seam inside the body running around the circle where the tone hole fastens to the horn. I am unaware of any Holtons with drawn toneholes. That 1914 patent date on the Conns is for the process of drawing (pulling) the tonehole out of the brass of the horn body and I don't think it expired for many years. Soft solder is a mix of lead-tin which is easy to use.
Hard solder(in musical instruments) is high in silver, and although tricky to use, makes for a much more durable joint. Sometimes a horn can be devilish to fix, because the leak is not in a pad, but a tiny crack in the solder anchoring the tonehole to the body. An ameteur fix is to carefully fill and smooth an epoxy repair from the inside.

[geauxsax]

I'm having a slight delay on the "Modern Vintage" list: I dropped my laptop and killed the harddrive, and can't log on to SOTW at work. I finally got my hands on a public computer, but access is sporadic.:(

[LaPorte]

I'm having a slight delay on the "Modern Vintage" list: I dropped my laptop and killed the harddrive, and can't log on to SOTW at work. I finally got my hands on a public computer, but access is sporadic.:(

That's too bad, hope there will be a solution soon.

What do you think about a common model list including all Holton saxophones?

Felix

[JayeSF]

....send me a couple of your horns, and I'll send you a laptop.....:D

actually...I am very sorry to hear about it....that must be a drag

BTW...I just noticed my Revelation has the model # '243' on it...

[jazzbug1]

Sorry-- samr thing happened to me. I dropped my Edison laptop and most of the tubes broke!

[geauxsax]

I'm having a slight delay on the "Modern Vintage" list: I dropped my laptop and killed the harddrive, and can't log on to SOTW at work. I finally got my hands on a public computer, but access is sporadic.:(

That's too bad, hope there will be a solution soon.

What do you think about a common model list including all Holton saxophones?

Felix


Felix-- I think that's a great idea!

[geauxsax]

....send me a couple of your horns, and I'll send you a laptop.....:D

actually...I am very sorry to hear about it....that must be a drag

BTW...I just noticed my Revelation has the model # '243' on it...

Tempting. . . :D

Oh--for the Revelation: Look at the "243" closely--I'll bet it's a 213 with an awkward looking "1".;)

[geauxsax]

Sorry-- samr thing happened to me. I dropped my Edison laptop and most of the tubes broke!

I think I need to buy a "toughbook" (or whatever they're called) if I'm going to be such a klutz.


Oh--computer is supposed to be back today. . .we'll see. . .

[LaPorte]

What do you think about a common model list including all Holton saxophones?

Felix


Felix-- I think that's a great idea!

That's fine. My suggestion: The Model list for the period 1916-1931/1932 is in need of revision. That will be done by me soon. Questions and suggestions are very appreciated.

I would be glad to help composing the list of the 'three digit models' or Modern Vintage Holton's (e.g. I have researched again 'The Special'. The result is new and better information now.

Felix

[JayeSF]

Oh--for the Revelation: Look at the "243" closely--I'll bet it's a 213 with an awkward looking "1".;)

D'oh !!!!!

...yes, it is a '1'.....

:banghead:

[jazzbug1]

I made the same mistake on my model 214. The numbers are so tiny that the 1 looked like a 4, so I initially called it a 244. One needs a magnifying glass to read the numbers. I've never seen a horn with such tiny numbers. Double D'oh!

[soybean]

A very interesting Holton "Ideal" model just sold on ebay. It is model #465 with a high F# key! (I suspect someone on this board bought it.) The serial number is 122397. I'll post photos later.

[geauxsax]

A very interesting Holton "Ideal" model just sold on ebay. It is model #465 with a high F# key! (I suspect someone on this board bought it.) The serial number is 122397. I'll post photos later.I saw that one. Maybe an alto version of the 475 tenor (which I've never seen)? It had LH bell keys, and a RH cluster unlike the 230 series altos. :?

edit: also a pearl F# trill (unlike my 232s)
earlier than my 232 sn's too (265 sn: 122397)
Also, the neck octave key is the "old style", not the fancy double arm style like the Stratodynes, 230 series altos, and late 241s
Lastly, what's with the odd neck tenon by the cork?

[JayeSF]

....I'll tell you about it...when it arrives. :shock: ;)

I figured the serial places it in the mid-30's and my Revelation is from then, and I love it. Also noticed the add'l keys and key treatments, so am figuring it may have been a first-line model....(?)

...if anyone turns up anything on 'em, please post it either here or on my "265" thread.

[geauxsax]

....I'll tell you about it...when it arrives. :shock: ;)

I figured the serial places it in the mid-30's and my Revelation is from then, and I love it. Also noticed the add'l keys and key treatments, so am figuring it may have been a first-line model....(?)

...if anyone turns up anything on 'em, please post it either here or on my "265" thread.

Here's some pics: Jaye--you're off a digit: it's a 465 vice 265. Did you really buy that one?

By the way, this one predates at least some 230 altos: Note post #47 this thread for reference (230 alto s/n 139XXX)

Also, note that the 465 alto is 100% contemporary to the 204 Resotone altos:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=96787

Now: we need a pic of the mythical 475 tenor! Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Enjoy:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton4656.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton4655.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton4651.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton4652.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton4653.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holton4654.jpg

[JayeSF]

D'oh ! :banghead:

Yes, I meant 465 and yes....it is now mine.

I will report back on it when I rec'v. Can snap some more telling photos as well, so you can save some image space ;)....

[geauxsax]

Nice Score!

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Dyn-O-Mite_1_.jpg

Also, I compared pics of an "early" 241 tenor (around 182XXX I believe) and a "late" 241. They have different necks (the single prong soldered to a loop octave key vs. the fancier double prong key), and different LH pinky clusters among other things. I'll post pics later!

[soybean]

So do you guys think that is really a high F# key on the 465, or possibly a trill key like Holtons from the 1920s?

If it's a high F#, that would be very unusual on any sax of that era.

[JayeSF]

Sure looks to be a basic F#....but...this mystery...along with that very odd looking neck thing going on....will be uncovered soon enuff....

Not a darn thing online about any Ideal series....fo' sure....

[soybean]

Nice 241 tenor on eBay… left side bell keys.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Holton-241-Tenor-Saxophone-beats-a-Yamaha-YTS-23-Great_W0QQitemZ170348770845QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item27a993f61d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A10|66%3A3|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0 |293%3A3|294%3A100

[JayeSF]

The last one that sold on open auction actually fetched good $$...over $600, if I recall. Well, not 'good' $....but significantly better than the $250-400 range they were going for back in February...

Hey...I wonder if our Secret Corner of the Forum here has been referenced enough that folks are beginning to smarten up as to the true worth of vintage Holtons ...????

[LaPorte]

A very interesting Holton "Ideal" model just sold on ebay. It is model #465 with a high F# key! (I suspect someone on this board bought it.) The serial number is 122397. I'll post photos later.I saw that one. Maybe an alto version of the 475 tenor (which I've never seen)? It had LH bell keys, and a RH cluster unlike the 230 series altos. :?


Now: we need a pic of the mythical 475 tenor! Anyone?

Here are photos of the 'Holton Ideal' tenor sold January '09 on ebay:

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/sax7.jpg

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/sax4.jpg

There is no photo from the reverse side, no model or serial number.

Felix

[soybean]

Here are photos of the 'Holton Ideal' tenor sold January '09 on ebayAfter looking at those photos again, it seems there is no high F# key, correct?

[LaPorte]

After looking at those photos again, it seems there is no high F# key, correct?

I agree, there seems to be no high F#. I suspect the 'High F#' key is an usual G# trill key with an unusual mother of pearl inlay?

[jazzbug1]

I have seen that collar on the Holton neck before. It is for the Rudy model sliding mouthpiece gadget. It acts as a stop, as the early Rudys lacked this and the mouthpiece could be forced up too far, causing a wedged situation. I find it odd that Holton would resurrect the Rudy feature a few years later, so maybe the same piece was used only to re-inforce the neck, without the sliding cylider. My #214 tenor (1939) has an extra neck brace, so Holton was obviously concerned about "neck pull down". Perhaps their engineering department had hired an early Yoga instructor.

[geauxsax]

(similar to the post on Holton Serial number registry, but probably better here):

Interesting info from an expired craigslist ad that came up during a search:

1960 Holton Baritone Bari Sax Elkhorn WI - Great shape bari sax. It has been repadded and relaquered about 5 years ago. I don't know the exact model but it's stamped 272 above the 336xxx serial ...
minneapolis.craigslist.org/msg/825264140.html

If accurate, then 274 Baris were made earlier (and contemporaries to 241 and 243 tenors), and at this this 272 Bari would be a contemporary to 566 altos and 577 tenors (late Collegiates). I'm not sure if a non-Collegiate was still being made at this point--the only Holtons I've seen or heard of above 300XXX sn are the 566/577s, other than this Bari.

This horn was being sold by a SOTW member on our board, with pics!

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin...d.php?p=921550

[geauxsax]

Very late 243 Tenor, if sn is correct:

sn 383600.
http://www.thewindsmith.com/holton_tenor_saxophone_model_243.htm


also, lacquer 241 tenor on ebay, sn 237381:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Holton-241-Tenor-Sax-Original-Lacquer_W0QQitemZ140333764371QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20ac8b4f13&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1240%7C 293%3A1%7C294%3A50

[geauxsax]

More info for upcoming "Modern" Vintage Holton s/n list and info I'm assembling:

Only info I can find on "240" tenors, cut and pasted from defunct craigslist ad and older SOTW post, respectively:

1940 Holton Tenor Sax - ... This sax is in need of some TLC. High and mid notes play easy. ... Name and decoration lightly etched on the bell: Holton 240 Elkhorn, Wis USA serial # 135xxx, ...
boston.en.craigslist.org/gbs/msg/1251511131.html

I have a Holton 240 Tenor Sax
The serial number is 145583
I got it used back in about 1965
(SOTW member KBSaxman, St Charles, IL)

Still looking for pictures!

[JayeSF]

STOP it with the Holton Porn !!!! You are killin' me here.....:sad2:

[geauxsax]

STOP it with the Holton Porn !!!! You are killin' me here.....:sad2:

Hey--my only Holton 465 pics are of your horn!:D

[JayeSF]

Well ...was that YOU who outbid me on that old silverplate Bari a few weeks ago ? Seller mentioned the winning bidder was in Germany, which is why I was wonderin'.....8-)

actually, there's the 465 right there in my avatar...pretty weird pic, eh ? I was trying to get a clean image of the engraving, and figured maybe if I put the bell close to the scanner glass it would work...but it didn't...but it made this really cool, painterly looking image.

[geauxsax]

Jaye,

The scanner pic had me laughing! :D I would have never guessed that.

Anyway, nope--not me on the Bari. I want one, but not until I move back to the States--I've got too much stuff to worry about hauling (or mailing) a Bari. Moving my tenors causes me enough pain.

Maybe LaPorte bought the Bari?

[goodsax]

Just to add another post to this marathon thread, I managed to pick up a Holton Collegiate 566 alto on eBay this morning and in the photos it looks nearly the same as the one that got me from my ninth birthday into my third year with the US Navy, i.e., 10 years of enjoyable playing.

Rob

[JayeSF]

I just rehabbed a pair of those, a '59 and a '65. They are solid horns....lacking the bottom spread of their first-line series horns, but they have a lotta punch and are very well-built; when the action is adjusted well, they are very nice old players....


Maybe LaPorte bought the Bari?

...we may never know...unless he returns from his secret 5-week mission.....:|

[goodsax]

I just rehabbed a pair of those, a '59 and a '64. They are solid horns....lacking the bottom spread of their first-line series horns, but they have a lotta punch and are very well-built; when the action is adjusted well, they are very nice old players...Actually, I got my first brand new Holton Collegiate in 1950 for my 9th birthday. It was the only horn I owned and played for the next 10 years. It seems the 566 is a few years newer.

[JayeSF]

What's the serial # on your latest one ?

Yes, I have these two, and while they are similar in many ways (even the parts are interchangeable) the body and key design aren't identical...the older one is a bit 'finer' in construction and action than the newer one is....also, oddly, the neck collar/tenon diameter is larger on the later horn....

[goodsax]

3621XX

I don't have it yet. It should arrive in about two to three days since the seller and I are both in California. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out that way and stuff happens.

[LaPorte]

I'm having a slight delay on the "Modern Vintage" list: I dropped my laptop and killed the harddrive, and can't log on to SOTW at work. I finally got my hands on a public computer, but access is sporadic.:(

That's too bad, hope there will be a solution soon.

What do you think about a common model list including all Holton saxophones?

Felix

Felix-- I think that's a great idea!

Please let me know when you need a revised model list of the 'ancient' vintage Holton saxophones (1916-ca.1932)!

Felix

[geauxsax]

Compilation of "Modern Vintage" Holton saxophones.
13370

oops--that didn't work well:(. . .still working

[mad-dog]

The big print giveth, and the small print taketh away. - Tom Waits

[geauxsax]

And then there's the really small print.:shock:

Anyway, the list is nothing too earth-shattering. There's a couple anomallies once you see the numbers laid out. For instance, the 270s are earlier than the rest of the 2XX series, and I believe the 272s were produced later than the 274s. The 274 seems (by picture earlier in this thread) to be a contemporary of the 241 tenors. I'd like to see a pic of the 271, but no such luck yet.

Also, I think the basic style of keywork of the 243 Tenor was continued into the late Collegiate line (566/576). Not sure if the quality was still there, but the keys look very similar on these models. Did they still make a pro model during the 566/576 run? Were the 243 and 272 still available? If so, what about the alto?

I'd like to figure out how to plug the horns into a timeline-type chart. I think that would be most useful. Also, I need to figure out how to get my hands on old Holton catalogs. I think those would answer many questions.

The issue with posting the list is that it is about 37 Kb to save as a word doc. The attachment limit for .doc files on SOTW is 19.5 Kb. I didn't have an option to save as an excel file (that's what it originally is). Running out of options, I tried as a JPEG, since they have a much higher memory limit. Unfortunately, my results speak for themselves.

[soybean]

The attachment limit for .doc files on SOTW is 19.5 Kb.Usually, there is a way to save the file with lower resolution. On the Mac, use the "save as" command and you will see a slider marked "quality". You can experiment with various qualities (resolution) to see what looks acceptable.

[JayeSF]

Compilation of "Modern Vintage" Holton saxophones.
13370

oops--that didn't work well:(. . .still working

No, don't change it...it's awesome....I can cut it out and paste it to the back of my horn...;)

[geauxsax]

OK--let's try the modern Vintage list again!

13518

:error::bsod::occasion:

[LaPorte]

OK--let's try the modern Vintage list again!

13518

:error::bsod::occasion:

Congratulations, a very well made list!

Felix

[LaPorte]

Another '230' alto for the list SN#110950. Good photos.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1931-Holton-230-Alto-Saxophone-Serial-110950_W0QQitemZ170383686129QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27aba8b9f1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1955wt_1167

Felix

[geauxsax]

Another '230' alto for the list SN#110950. Good photos.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1931-Holton-230-Alto-Saxophone-Serial-110950_W0QQitemZ170383686129QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27aba8b9f1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1955wt_1167

Felix

Thanks! Will be added to list.

[soybean]

Thanks! Will be added to list.It's great that you made this list. Between you and LaPorte, we'll soon have the complete history of Holton saxophones. Do you want us to notify you about modern vintage Holtons on eBay, or are you looking everyday?

[geauxsax]

Thanks! Will be added to list.It's great that you made this list. Between you and LaPorte, we'll soon have the complete history of Holton saxophones. Do you want us to notify you about modern vintage Holtons on eBay, or are you looking everyday?
Soy,
I look most of the time, but any help is appreciated!

Also, if anyone sees any errors or omissions in the list, please let me know.

[geauxsax]

French ebay 270 with unique engraving, as mentioned in an earlier thread:

sn 130692
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2701.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2702.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2703.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2704.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2705.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2706.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2707.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2708.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2709.jpg

[geauxsax]

274 Bari from french ebay. Very late serial number!

sn 462075. Also note unique engraving versus rest of 2XX series.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2741.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2742.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2743.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2744.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2745.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2746.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/holtonfr2747.jpg

[geauxsax]

OK guys: What's this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Holton-SilverTenor-Sax-w-Hard-Case-255-SN-140815_W0QQitemZ320430288680QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a9b222f28&_trksid=p4999.c0.m14

Note: Engraving similar to 270 bari a few posts up (post 146 this thread), and about 10K numbers off for s/n. The "472" scrawled on it near the n/s intrigues me--was that originally on it somewhere else? We never got the model number off the other tenor that was assumed to be the equivalent to the 465 alto (s/n 122397) earlier in this thread (post 111). Maybe a 472, instead of the 475 that we guessed???:? Similar build to the 465 alto and the (475?) Tenor too.

Pics:
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/silverholtontenor2.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/silverholtontenor3.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/silverholtontenor4.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/silverholtontenor5.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/silverholtontenor6.jpg

[geauxsax]

The only pics we have of a "suspected" 475 (?) tenor-no model number or s/n was given in the ad though.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holtonbrass4XXtenor1.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/Holtonbrass4XXtenor2.jpg

[geauxsax]

Another '230' alto for the list SN#110950. Good photos.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1931-Holton-230-Alto-Saxophone-Serial-110950_W0QQitemZ170383686129QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27aba8b9f1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1955wt_1167

Felix
230 Alto Photos added:
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj58/oldcheapsaxguy/230sax.jpg

[soybean]

Geauxsax, some really good work here. Thanks for posting. That tenor is intriqueing.