Tranistions to a Mk 6 from a range of "loud" horns [Archive]

Keith Ridenhour

11-06-2006, 03:04 AM

I played Mk 6 alto and tenor back in college and sold them off years ago. In the last 10 years of returning to playing I've leaned toward "big "tone horns like King super 20, Yani 900, 2 Martin Comittees, and 4 the Martins. Last horn before this 6 was a P Mauriet. So, I got this Mk 6 200K serial number a couple of months ago and I like the tone but I have to really pull it out of the horn. There are a bunch of upper stack leaks and I'll get those fixed and I'm gonna try out a Jody Jazz ESP (guardala like) piece to get a bigger tone without the back pressure this horn creates. (my other horns were freer blowin than this 6) Anyway, I like the horns tone enough to spend the money and effort to get it to play. It does project if pushed but I'm used to a spread around the player tone rather than a bounced against a wall tone if you know what I mean. Anyway, I like this 6, I've always liked the "selmer" sound so thats my direction. I'm in the club. K

Keith Ridenhour

11-06-2006, 03:06 AM

Thats a wordy post and I don't know if Im clear. What I'm saying is that this 6 feels like blowing a Yamaha, Martin, or whatever into a bag, losing half the body of tone. I can get it louder but I am trying to get it "fatter" if that makes sense. I have tryed alot of pieces and weirdly enough the best so far is a Strathion with the baffle all the way up. Not bad, but I need freer blowing for a back problem that won't go away, Thanks for reading. K

Dave Dolson

11-06-2006, 03:11 AM

Keith: I think a good overhaul will make that horn just as strong as any you've played. DAVE

11-07-2006, 02:54 AM

There are a bunch of upper stack leaks and I'll get those fixed and I'm gonna try out a Jody Jazz ESP (guardala like) piece to get a bigger tone without the back pressure this horn creates. K

Hey Keith, definitely get the leaks fixed. That should make a big difference. I'm not sure the JJ ESP will get the bigger tone you seek (but maybe). I tried an ESP on my VI a few years ago and while it had a nice tone quality and was easy to play, I couldn't get a big sound out of it. A Ponzol M2 and an RPC work much better to get a bigger and fatter tone, at least for me. I think the VI has a very strong sound and definitely a powerful sound. However, it doesn't have as free-blowing or as big a sound as my Bueschers. It does have a nice depth to the tone. It's all a trade-off.

gary

11-07-2006, 03:07 AM

I'm not sure the JJ ESP will get the bigger tone you seek... I tried an ESP on my VI a few years ago and while it had a nice tone quality and was easy to play, I couldn't get a big sound out of it.
Ditto that. I played an ESP for about two years. Excellent mpc but unless you use the spoiler (which made it a bit shrill for me) I don't think that's the mpc to get loud on, if loud is what you really want. I have not played a Guardala, but nothing I have read about them puts them in the ESP ballpark.

BTW, Keith you kill me. You're having problems with the response and in the same breath you mention a number of leaks the horn's got. Get thee to a repairman, nave! :D

baritone

11-07-2006, 12:13 PM

I feel later Mark VIs have a different sound concept...

CashSax

11-07-2006, 01:58 PM

Well, lemme see..K got another VI..good news..I sold all my other tenors too, except an old Elkhound Buescher. The VI will just get better with playing time and repairs.The various vintage horns are fun, but the VI is the workhorse in my book...talk about upper stacks, I Kicked my VI tenor over on top of my Sop yesterday after the gig, Sop was unharmed but I whacked the upper stack and bent a rod on my VI tenor.. .went straight to the shop at daybreak,Just got it back ..repaired to perfection..plays way better than before, musta been leakin'....LOL:D

CashSax

11-07-2006, 02:05 PM

CashSax

11-07-2006, 02:08 PM

Keith don' t wanna say I told ya so but you'll end up on a DG..:twisted: :twisted: Oh yeah I tried the Strathon 4 yrs ago, had to have the baffle jacked up too..DG's better..get a lazertrim they're killer.8-)

Swingin' Cat

11-07-2006, 03:08 PM

K - you shoulda stuck with the tenor in the pic on your home page!

M

gary

11-07-2006, 08:07 PM

Keith Ridenhour

11-08-2006, 12:55 AM

Damn, Gary. 7000 posts. You're an animal?? I just got the Jody Jazz ESP and I was surprised. Its darker and blows across all the leaks on this horn very well. It isn't as bright as the Strathion but its got a better core. I think the horn in that pic was a King Super 20? Good horn but I took stupid pills and sold it? I'll post the Jody Jazz and Strathion on mouthpiece vrs piece. I have to say , it's nice to play a piece that ignores the horns condition. Don't know if I'll keep it? Cash, I tryed the superking, king, and MB II on this horn and really didn't like the shrill, small tone. The Strathion , as much as I bitch about it has saved me when I have to play a gig. Don't know , this ESP is 350 but its sooooo easy to play? K

CashSax

11-08-2006, 02:27 AM

DG takes getting used to..first Job on mine was a Jazz concert at some Rehab joint in Sonoma..Freaked me out so bad I played my Plastic Runyon quantum for weeks after that..(nice dry woody tone btw)..But, getting into the DG now after a couple of yrs.. I can play dark and smooth on mine as any mpc I'ver ever used.Plus the Alt Lenny thing is getting better and better too.Don't ignore the condition of your VI, crucial you get it fixed right away..

CashSax

11-08-2006, 02:48 AM

K if you like the Strathon on gigs it tells you that's the only way to really know what will work..(try the ESP)..you'll play differently when performing..I think if you open your throat more the DG will give you the largest sound in return..it's a different animal I think..I've played several Runyon models on my Tenor and they we're OK..but never a JJ (tried JJ's on Alto but went to a handmade DG) .. "ESP".. guess that' that's the latest.. (?)..back to the DG, it'll take more air than anything I've ever played except my 10* Dukoff which is TOOO big. but of course we'll all different so I hope the "ESP" works it's magic for ya..give it a few mos.

Bill Mecca

11-08-2006, 01:49 PM

Keith, Keith, Keith, get the horn leak free, then, and only then, think about how a mpc blows on it. The $350 would be much better spent on repairs to the horn than on any mouthpiece. (at this point).

bfoster64

11-08-2006, 05:05 PM

I put my JJ DV 7* on a VI tenor last weekend and it sounded great. Awesome low end, soaring bright high end, good intonation, super free blowing, easy to tone down if you want less projection and brightness. It's a killer combo, and it made me really want a VI tenor. I agree you should get the horn adjusted first, but THEN you should try some new mpcs.

Keith Ridenhour

11-08-2006, 11:36 PM

Good advice guys. The ESP goes back tomorrow and the horn goes in the shop tomorrow. Actually the more I play this Strathion the fatter the tone gets anyway. (Tom S gave it to me so thats the cheapest way to go.) I might try the DV Jody but 500 bucks is a little steep for my blood this year? Cash, you did sound good on the DG when I heard you in LV. Time to practice. K

stevesklar

11-09-2006, 02:20 AM

K - you go thru more horns than Randall & Gary combined it seems =-)

and take the recommendations above and get that VI fixed. I'm sure it will blow you away with the tonal qualities you are looking for and it'll make you sell your PM !!

now that i think of it, didn't i mention months ago you should get a Selmer and forget the rest ??

gary

11-09-2006, 09:26 AM

K - you go thru more horns than Randall & Gary combined it seems.
LOL! I am waaaaay out of Randall's league. He's actually got a good day gig!

FWIW, I've only had three different tenors and the same alto for the last twelve years.
Some of you guys do that in a week! :yikes!:

Keith. Dude. I know you're a good guy, but don't you think that's just taking a little too much advantage of Jody Espina's charitable return policy? :)

whaler

11-09-2006, 10:48 AM

The loudest tenor player I ever heard live, Billy Harper, played a MarkVI. Con't confuse loud with ugly.

stevesklar

11-09-2006, 12:31 PM

Sorry Gary - musta had you confused with someone else ... like our buddy K

Keith Ridenhour

11-10-2006, 12:30 AM

Gary, Jody is a great guy and I returned the piece two days after I got it so no imposition on him. And that ESP isn;t bad, just quiet on this horn. I played a sound clip from a couple of weeks ago when I was copping licks from Eric Marienthal and I sound fine on the 6 and the Strat. The 6 got left at the shop tonight and the P is a nice horn but no character comapred to the 6. In addition to the upper stack repad and whatever jumps out in the lower I'm gonna have the neckstrap hook moved a little to the right. THe horn with the way the hook is now turns to the left and I want it to hang straight down without me having to turn it one way or the other. K

madav

11-10-2006, 06:50 AM

I have thinned out all my mpc's down to four - ESP 120, Berg 130/1 (vintage), Wooden Lebayle (modified) and Lawton 9*B (tenor VI). Like others have said there is nothing wrong with the ESP, decent sound, well made (but a wierd narrow profile), the Berg has a great 'colour' to the tone, and the Lebayle has simply the best response - but the Lawton, has just much more of everything and a really huge tone in comparison to the others.. - that's my recommendation anyway!

gary

11-10-2006, 10:22 AM

The loudest tenor player I ever heard live, Billy Harper, played a MarkVI. Con't confuse loud with ugly.
I don't know when you heard him last whaler, but I believe Billy is now playing a Serie II...still loudly, LOL.

Well, actually now that I think about it, he's not so much loud as his tone has a bright edge to it and it projects well, with power.

Keith Ridenhour

11-10-2006, 01:06 PM

Theres a local guy who's played with a Corp band , Wall Street for the last 20 years and he gets a way fat tone on his 6 with a Guardala pink bite plate piece that was "worked on " by some guy in New York. (In other words one of a kind) That Lawton is an interesting possibility but I'm broke and that always brings the GAS truck to the side of the road. K

gary

11-10-2006, 01:38 PM

...I'm gonna have the neckstrap hook moved a little to the right. THe horn with the way the hook is now turns to the left and I want it to hang straight down without me having to turn it one way or the other. K
Are you sure you want to do that? Resale value. You might want to sell the sax in a little bit to make room for another. :twisted:

Bill Mecca

11-11-2006, 01:11 AM

gary I just might have to change your title to "enabler" if you're not careful. K, you've been down the Lawton road before, just wanted to remind you, then again, there aren't many roads you haven't travelled. :lol:

Keith Ridenhour

11-11-2006, 02:16 AM

got the horn back today and with metal resos on the upper stack it really does have more bite to it. I did have the neckstrap hook and right hand thumb rest moved more in line with the left hand thumb rest. It hangs straight now and feel "right" for me. Guess I'm stuck with it?? Plus, I could hear air hissing out of that Strathion where the adjustatone slider is so I had the tech put silicone inside that sliding mech. No more leaks and guess I'm stuck with that also?? (I always have the slider set at max baffle so I don't care if I cant move it) You're rignt, Bill. Did the lawton thing years ago. Maybe I'll just practice, put on fun music and play along. Time to have fun for a change. K

Keith Ridenhour

11-11-2006, 02:37 AM

Just so you don't think I wrecked this horn or piece here is a short clip. Unfortunately , the octave key is binding and something is wrong with the mech so I'll take it back in tomorrow. Here it is. http://kride.net/LinkClick.aspx?link=%2fPortals%2f15%2fGear+Trials% 2fMk6Strathionmetalresos.mp3&tabid=332&mid=882

Tryptykon

11-11-2006, 03:09 AM

I played Mk 6 alto and tenor back in college and sold them off years ago. In the last 10 years of returning to playing I've leaned toward "big "tone horns like King super 20, Yani 900, 2 Martin Comittees, and 4 the Martins. Last horn before this 6 was a P Mauriet. So, I got this Mk 6 200K serial number a couple of months ago and I like the tone but I have to really pull it out of the horn. << EDITED >>
..It does project if pushed but I'm used to a spread around the player tone rather than a bounced against a wall tone if you know what I mean. Anyway, I like this 6, I've always liked the "selmer" sound so thats my direction. I'm in the club. K

Did you sell the Yani [900 was it?] ?

I like my 880 and 902 Bronze tenors as much as some of the best VIs I've played,
which would include some of the more desirable s/n ranges.(86-104,000).

Keith Ridenhour

11-11-2006, 03:42 AM

I had a Yani 900 that I liked and gigged with for awhile but decided to go "vintage" about 4 years ago and bought a King Super 20. I did buy a Yani 880 last year and resold it within a month. It had great action and a dark tone but way too quiet for the kind of gigs I get. I end up being the only accoustic instrument by 2nd set. I get no monitor and little mains so I really almost play for myself and my little minidisk recorder. That 880 would have made a very good classical horn. K (actually I'm told that I project well in the audiance and I use a plastic circle around the mik to bounce my sound back to me. I'm not complaining. These days gigs are really appreciated

Tryptykon

11-11-2006, 03:52 AM

I don't find the T880 to be quiet, at all - that's an interesting remark.

In your opening post you include the 900 in a list of big tone horns .

My T880 projects like crazy; go figure. . same with the T902

I think most VIs would work well for classical also, if you use a classical setup.

I really think it's a reed/mpc issue (as usual).

Gary Thomas uses a Yani tenor w/ a Strathon and he defl'y doesn't lack volume.

Keith Ridenhour

11-11-2006, 03:31 PM

That Yani 900 was easily the loudest tenor I've owned. It had a great alt also. I was just missing the core/character that I associated with a vintage horn. Oddly, I liked the 900 over the more expensive 901? model. I saved 600 dollars at the time and it sounded better. Heres a story of why I like a big tone. I went to a jam a few years ago at a Blues guys house. Lots of guitars, harps, etc. they thought it would be fun to have all three of us tenors up at once (get rid of us and go back to long guitar solos) so player 1 plays his Mk 6. , eats the mik, barely heard, polite applause, girl player 2 plays her Mk 6, eats the mik, etc. I stood 4 ft off mik with my The Martin and Ponzol M2 and played relaxed lines that could be heard and the crowd loved it. (Plus I had an alt and they didn't and that is a big thing to not have if you play pop/blues) Loud isn't better, sometimes it just puts you in the game if you know what I mean. That was then, this is now. I like the selmer tone, realistically can't stay up until 2 in the morning at a bar gig and expect my back to handle my day gig so, now I'm playing for me. K

11-11-2006, 04:38 PM

they thought it would be fun to have all three of us tenors up at once (get rid of us and go back to long guitar solos) so player 1 plays his Mk 6. , eats the mik, barely heard, polite applause, girl player 2 plays her Mk 6, eats the mik, etc. I stood 4 ft off mik with my The Martin and Ponzol M2 and played relaxed lines that could be heard and the crowd loved it. (Plus I had an alt and they didn't and that is a big thing to not have if you play pop/blues)

Hey Keith, I agree the VI may not quite have the big sound of the vintage American horns, but I don't think it's that huge of a difference. The situation you describe here sounds to me more like a difference in players, and maybe mpcs. It could very well be you'd have been heard on a VI better then the other two, with your M2 mpc and altissimo. Last summer Tom Politzer (TOP horn player) came to one of our jam sessions. He & I got up together and he was on a Yamaha and I was playing my VI (one of the rare occasions I had it instead of the Buescher). With two of us blowing there wasn't a guitar player in the house who could compete; we just went for it all out (what a blast!). Of course I don't have his chops, but I could keep up on the volume, lol. We were playing through a mic, but it wasn't turned up very loud and didn't need to be. Now if I had been on my Buescher and he had say, a Martin or King horn, maybe the roof would have come off, I don't know! But seriously, I don't think volume was an issue, with a Yam & a VI.

The mpc is another story.......that's where you can really address volume issues.

Tryptykon

11-12-2006, 06:29 PM

I really think the saxophone is just a tool for expression - so with that in mind
you just pick the tool that will best get the job done for you.

A poor workman blames his tools; but you do want to be as comfortable as
possible so that you can forget about the equipment .

I know many guys horn shop using their current mpc/reed setup, and respond
based on how the horn works with that.
For the most part that makes perfect sense if you're married to a Link and rico,
for example.

Sometimes you'll try a horn that is almost there; you sense their is more potential
to be brought, out.

I've found you sometimes need to match a different cut of reed or change
the mpc, as well.

I've always made sure that I'm familiar w/ a few different brands of reeds, so
that I can dial something else, in - along w/ changing my playing concept to
get whatever the music calls for.

I think the different makes of horns have their own built-in EQ, but you can
manipulate that if you can switch reeds or match a chamber/baffle profile to
add or subtract what you're looking for.

This has worked well, for me over the years.

Keith Ridenhour

11-12-2006, 07:26 PM

Biggest thing I'm fightiing is responce with the horn. I hate a slow horn but the repad on the upper and some neck work and its still "slow". I did put plumbers tape on the tenon and that helped. I agree, its all about "connectiveness" to the horn and than can mean anything from piece, to lig, to reeds, to etc. I did some taping today trying to match breckers fullness on his Hearts and Numbers Cd and got a real eye opener of how I 'll close off the tone with I'm trying to do a scoop rather than keep the air support and just do a keyed grace note. Always more to learn. K

Tryptykon

11-12-2006, 10:02 PM

BayviewSax

11-12-2006, 10:33 PM

The loudest tenor player I ever heard live, Billy Harper, played a MarkVI. Con't confuse loud with ugly.

Man! Ain't he a b**** live!? So GD powerful it's scary! I sat practically in his lap one night (really, got the spit stain on my pants to prove it!). And of all things, he was playing a Series II at that time. (In fairness, I believe his VI was silver-plated)

Keith, you're making me wish I'd kept that damned thing. There'll be another of that vintage in my life one day.

whaler

11-12-2006, 10:46 PM

I saw Billy Harper with Thad and Mel in the 70's (my dad took me). I don't think they had made a Serie II yet.

BayviewSax

11-12-2006, 11:02 PM

That's correct. Was he playing a lacquered horn when you saw him? I've always seen him with that beautiful silver six (I could be an idiot - it may be nickel plated). No matter, he could make a shoestring resonate. I gotta make the pilgrimage to catch him again. He played PRIESTESS for the sound check, the whole head, then waved it down. I was crushed. I thought sure they'd do the tune afterward. No matter, none of his tunes disappoint. Okay, enough of my hero worship, Keith, you can have your thread back.

gary

11-12-2006, 11:30 PM

That's correct. Was he playing a lacquered horn when you saw him? I've always seen him with that beautiful silver six (I could be an idiot - it may be nickel plated).
I was with Billy daily for two weeks this summer and he was playing a Serie II, black laquer. (For anyone also interested, he mpc was a Berg nr. 2, not sure of the opening but it wasn't large.) Humorous story, he said he tried out a bunch of Selmers and actually another one had better intonation than his current horn, but he chuckled and said he just had to have the black one.

BayviewSax

11-13-2006, 09:46 PM

Yeah, and when I saw his, I had to have mine, but my VI cured me of that mistake. I think I kind of frightened him when he was playing in Maine. I talked to him a the break and requested LOVE ON THE SUDAN... I think I have an idea what John Lennon's final facial expression was... the man was a bit freaked out.

Dr G

11-13-2006, 10:46 PM

With two of us blowing there wasn't a guitar player in the house who could compete...

Then they must have been traveling with pretty small amps.;)

Come on, now, aren't you stretchin' that story just a lil'? 8-)

gary

11-13-2006, 10:48 PM

Then they must have been traveling with pretty small amps.
Come on, now, aren't you stretchin' that story just a lil'?
Dr G, I think it was that their amps didn't go up to 11. :D

BayviewSax

11-14-2006, 12:11 AM

Then they must have been traveling with pretty small amps.;)

Come on, now, aren't you stretchin' that story just a lil'? 8-)

I don't doubt him. Maybe he plays an RPC!:D

Tryptykon

11-14-2006, 04:15 AM

Dr G, I think it was that their amps didn't go up to 11. :D

Mebbe it was the sustayne(not to be confused with Wolf..).

gary

11-14-2006, 10:46 AM

Mebbe it was the sustayne(not to be confused with Wolf..).
Or maybe it was the other saxplayers' mouthpieces. They should switch to Wolf's "Poon" model. Maybe they wouldn't play as wimpy if they had good...well, you know. :D

11-14-2006, 05:17 PM

I don't doubt him. Maybe he plays an RPC!:D

LOL, yeah, you got it right Bayview. Actually, Tom was playing a "modified" link and he got a huge sound on it. Ok, gary & Dr G you guys caught me! Sure, sometimes it helps to stretch the story a bit. But of course we were playing through the P.A., which certainly wasn't cranked up to where it could be. And the guitar players I usually play with are not inclined to crank their amps up to maximum (most of them are real blues musicians, not rock musicians). So, yeah a bit of an exagerration. Still, if you put two horns together blowing loud, you'll make more than enough noise (we probably made too much, but it was fun nevertheless). I usually try to play at a reasonable volume and use the mic effectively.

My point still remains that with the right mouthpiece you can get a very powerful sound out of a VI and plenty of volume. I'll admit that I can put more air into my Buescher and it seems like the volume on that horn is only limited to how much air you can give it. The VI does seem to have a limit.

Keith Ridenhour

11-15-2006, 12:39 AM

I played a bar gig in SF years ago and the band was up on a second level where you could dance (we were doing jazz that night) if you wanted to. I did some long model solo on my Martin Commitee with a duk and the bartender on the first floor asked me to quiet down since he couldn't hear the people ordering drinks. This was a loud , noisy bar and I could easily match the rest of the bands volume. Thats not a point of pride but it is nice to be able to play at a comfortable volume and hear yourself. Theres a guy I know whos a fantastic classical soprano player and good tenor. I heard him in a pop band I could tell he couldn't hear himself. Funky tone (not good) and out of tune. He just couldn't hear himself. THe horn has to have some spread or you need a good moniter and then you get into the lead singer needind more moniter since she can hear too much of me, etc. Best is just bouncing it off my plexiglass. We have a private this weekend for around 400 people and I'll get a feel if I have the horn dialed or not. This may seem like a trivial deal to alot of folks here, but try doing a loud blues shuffe in a real situation and pulling it off with a good alt if you can't hear yourself. Anyway, the more I play this Strathion the more I like it. K

11-15-2006, 03:31 PM

Best is just bouncing it off my plexiglass.

Yeah Keith, I use one of those too, when I don't have a good monitor mix. I'd say the best of all is a good monitor mix, but you don't always have that, as you point out. I ocassionally play in clubs with real good sound systems and a sound person who knows what they are doing. That's when you can get the monitor mix you need (usually).