Selmer VI vs. Reference

[Nefertiti]

I've been the owner of a Selmer reference alto for over a year now. I love this horn. the other day I go in a music store and the owner asks me to try a Series II they just got in. I played it. Nothing special. Ok. but not anywhere near my reference. then the owner brings out this minty VI from the 60's. Not for sale but he wants me to try it because it's the cream of the crop. Everyone wants this horn. i played it and...... I liked my Reference better, The Vi had more of a focus to it a center to the sound but it didn't have that rich dark lush sound I love from the reference. It was a good feeling.:D

[CountSpatula]

Hi Nefertiti!

:D I've had my reference for almost a year now and lovin' it over the other selmers too. A freshman this year happened to have a Mark VI which blew my mind...long story behind it, but he really didn't mind me playing on it so I got to touch a Mark VI for the first time (about a month ago)! :D I believe it was 140,XXX but sadly it really didn't impress me, thought it was a good horn still. It seemed brighter to me, but I really dig the dark tone from my Reference :D I wonder what an earlier 5 digit horn plays like though...

[brasscane]

The Reference alto is based on a Series II. I am guessing the Reference gets more attention before leaving the factory. A well set-up Series II would probably be a better comparison. A blind-folded player would help too. I wasn't too happy with my Series II when I received it so I basically had the horn gone over from A to Z and there was no comparison. Much happier with it now although the cost differential between a Reference and my horn obviously shrank considerably in the process. So if you are getting a new horn, maybe a Reference, but if you have a Series II less money might be better spent at getting the horn set up properly, which is hardly something Selmer does well.

[Mike F]

The Reference alto is based on a Series II.

WHAT? You mean that they're both Eb alto saxes and have the same number of keys?

Don't get me wrong, the SA80 II is a great instrument - I've owned two of them, but don't try to convince yourself (or anyone else) that the Ref 54 is essentially the same horn - it's not!

[Russ]

Ergonomically, the Serie II (to me) was better than the Ref 54, but soundwise, nowhere near. The Ref had that warm smoky sound that reminded me of my old Buffet SDA.

Nef, this must have really put your mind at rest as you have now made the comparison with the reviled Mk 6 and know which you prefer. Game over !

[brasscane]

In reference (no pun intended) to Mike F:

Body dimensions are, which are the major determinant of sound characteristics. Personally, I don't care. I could buy a Ref if I wanted one. All I am saying is before exchanging a Series II for a Ref (and shelling out a lot of cash) have the horn set up properly.

[rim shot]

Where did you get this from?
I mean, isn´t the big selling point is supposed to be that it is, well, a sort-of modern-day copy of the 1954 MK VI?

[brasscane]

Where did you get this from?
I mean, isn´t the big selling point is supposed to be that it is, well, a sort-of modern-day copy of the 1954 MK VI?

Authorized Selmer dealer who imported the first Reference horns into the US. I am sorry if this is bothering anyone. It wasn't intended to. I could go on (bore dimension of Reference 36 and 54 tenors are virtually identical...). But now that you mention it, selling point, if you start flattening the the side E back to MKVI style, which vitually everyone I know with a MKVI has had modified with epoxy or whatever to make it more comfortable, maybe selling horns is a factor. Anyway, having listened to Nefertiti's sound clips, there's a guy who could test the rest of us. Certainly no shortage of skills - wow! Just post clips with a GOOD Series II and a Reference and lets vote without knowing what horn is being played. Finally, I have more that one II and the finish of the earlier ones are definitely better.

[Nefertiti]

Well, I don't know about all that.......but the Series II played nothing like the Reference. Not even close. It just seemed dead to me(Admitedly it needs to be set up) The VI played great but the reference and VI were in the same league with me prefering the reference. This was a 151,000 horn. It wasn't as dark or as rich to my ears.

[gelliot2]

I own both a Series II and a Ref alto and I find the sound of both horns to be very close. I realise this is a subjective opinion on my part but that's what I find when I play both my horns.
I've compared the two side-by-side with a selection of mouthpieces and even swapped necks over and repeated the same. They are very similar to my mind.

After reading other posters comments elsewhere on SOTW, I guess can only conclude that I must have an exceptional Series II for it to be up there with my Ref (or the other way round of course!).

The big difference I find between to two horns is that altissimo is easier on the Ref and the keywork is more comfortable for me, especially the LH pinky table (although there are posts on SOTW that disagree on that issue also).

Like a lot of things saxophonic, it's all subjective and you have to make up your own mind.

[Andrew D]

Fwiw I have owned all 3; I have a Mark v1 which is my primary alto. I had owned the ref and v1 in my possession for around 3 months. (Just to make sure I wasn’t making a wrong move). They both impressed me.

I think the reference has more in common with a series 2 than a MV1, however having said that the reference is still very different to the series 2.
The v1 and ref are different horns so generally are not comparable, you either like one or the other.

With regards to the ref being darker, that's definitely not the case with regards to my v1, however the v1 has that ability to become brighter and I find has a more dynamic sound spectrum re bright & dark.

This is just my opinion.

They are both amazing horns & the biggest difference will be the guy whose playing them.

[rim shot]

I am sorry if this is bothering anyone. It wasn't intended to. I could go on (bore dimension of Reference 36 and 54 tenors are virtually identical...).

Oh, no... it´s not bothering anyone- at least, not me.

I mentioned selling point intentionally.
.
I´m just interested. I have played the horns lotsa II´s, III´s, Refs, MK VI´s and I own a Serie II alto (among others).

Please tell us more details.

[Mike F]

OK, I own a Ref 54 an two MK6's 82xxx and 106xxx :D (I'm talking ato's). I've also owned two series II's, a clear and a black laquer, and I've lost count of the number of other MK6's and Serie II's that I've played.

Of course this is subjective, but FWIW I find MK6's to be generally bright and more centered than the others, Serie II's to be darker and less centered than MK6's, and Ref54's to have the ability to be both darker than the others - rich dark and lush as Nefertiti put it so well - and as bright as a bright MK6!

I find the Ref 54 isn't as centered as a MK6 but has a bigger sound with more power. However, when I record my Mk6's and my Ref 54 the basic 'core' sound is very similar.

IMHO the Ref 54 is a lot closer in every way to a MK6 than a Serie II, both in sound and ergonomics, and I don't mean the flattened out high E key, I mean the way the whole horn feels under my fingers - in other words the key placement.

PS When I play alto I almost always go for the Ref 54, and if I had to keep just one alto it would be the 54!

[Stan]

When I sold my 18 years old Series II Tenor I compared it with lot of MKVIs and all of them played better with a solid deeper and some time bigger sound. The SA80II was very thin (tin :D ) in the lower register if compared with any other VI. For what concerns the alto models, any time I compared a new saxophone (Refs and others) with a vintage one (VI) I preferred the vintage feeling and sound.

Stan

[heath]

Looks like selmer got it right with the ref 54 alto. Aside from the gurgle that some people complain about, it looks like selmer's come up with something that competes very well with the VI legacy.

[jazaddict]

I sold my early '70's VI tenor (that I owned for 20+ years) & bought a Ref54 a couple of years ago. I based the decision partly on what I read here, and mostly on A/B-ing the 2 in my little home studio.

I found the 2 VERY similar sounding, and the Ref MUCH more stable and easy to blow. They sounded so similar that I fooled my wife from the other room. I had my VI in the shop every 3-6 months for little tune-ups; the scoop here was that the Ref would stay "set up" longer. That's proven to be true.

Now, argueably, my VI was not one of the glowing, lush, buzzy, awesome ones of lore; it was very nice. The Ref is 99% of that but smoother, quicker, and more solid. I've had it in the shop once in the last couple of years.

As someone here said about their VI -> Ref transition: best move I ever made.

[gary]

I've played three Ref. 54's now in the past month and in no case did any of them do anything extra for me. I don't know why there should be such a disconnect between what so many of you seem to say about the Ref. and my experience. I preferred the Serie II's I played (4) and I didn't hear or feel anything special about the Ref. that gave it much of an advantage over my humble little re-laquered Conn 6M that I paid under $900 bucks for. :scratch:

[Chu-Jerry]

The Conn 6M has a lot going for it. It's no insult to the '54 to be compared against the 6M. I find that going between my 6M and my MKVI, they both sound fantastic but just different. Both are definitely pedigreed. I only ever tried one Ref54, and other than the appearance, I was disappointed with it, way too dark and resistant. The action felt overly stiff and it had the low B gurgle. Since it was the last one left in the store (Kesslers) near Christmas time , it might have been the reject of the picking and choosing.

[Dr_sax]

I must chime in with Nefertiti. I also tried a whole bunch of altos- yamaha, yanagisawa, selmer series II and III and a good playing 5 digit MK VI. Finally found what I was looking for in my properly setup ref. 54

[Joe Jazz]

In regard to an earlier comment, I do remember when the Ref 54 alto first came out reading here and on the Selmer forum that it was based on the Series II, not the Mark VI. Doesn't mean it's the same, just based on it. Heck, to me all modern saxes are "based on" the Mark VI.....

[tenorsaxman11]

One wild variable that's in play in this discussion is "properly setup". Pretty tough to A/B horns objectively if they're not setup by a great tech.

That aside, I agree with Nefertiti, having had the same experience. My buddy's well setup VI is freer blowing than my not setup 54, but the sound is just a little less lush.

[gary]

I must chime in with Nefertiti. I also tried a whole bunch of altos- yamaha, yanagisawa, selmer series II and III and a good playing 5 digit MK VI. Finally found what I was looking for in my properly setup ref. 54
Would you mind telling me from whom you bought it and who set it up? Was that in the area of Munich or elsewhere? Thanks.

[rollen]

If I recall correctly, the Mark VI tenor was Model #54 in the Selmer Catalog. I have a .pdf somewhere (another pc).

The Reference alto was based on a Mark VI from 1958 according to Jerome Selmer in an interview with Miles Osland. Link is on front page of MilesOsland.com "Jerome Selmer Interview"

As far as brightness is concerned, my 1957 alto is brighter than my 1964 alto. Both horns have just been setup and are in perfect playing condition. The best I have ever heard was a 1964. It filled the room with such colorful sound.

[The-A-Sax]

When I bought my serie II alto, I had a choice out of 10 the same saxes, all serie II goldlacquerred. Every comment I read in this thread on whatever sax, can be placed to one of them. How can you compare series if the saxes in a serie are so different?

[Dr_sax]

Would you mind telling me from whom you bought it and who set it up? Was that in the area of Munich or elsewhere? Thanks.

Sorry Gary!
Didn´t see your post before.
I got my ref 54. alto from Musik Bertram in Freiburg. It came from their store with an allmost perfect setup. My tech here in munich is Max Frei. He does an incredible job.

[gary]

Ah, I know of them. Thanks. Gary


Sorry Gary!
Didn´t see your post before.
I got my ref 54. alto from Musik Bertram in Freiburg. It came from their store with an allmost perfect setup. My tech here in munich is Max Frei. He does an incredible job.